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Posts: 469/673
(25-Jun-2003 at 20:53)


jh211988, think about what you posted. I think that's all I need to type about the matter. I really don't feel like wasting the time to post my explanation of why that sounded just so not right. I'll leave the thinking to you people for once

"Be wary of what lurks about when the darkness consumes you, for it is not the darkness you should be most afraid of, but those rays of light that should care to take advantage of your unhealthy state of mind."

Last edited by Warlyik, 25-Jun-2003 at 20:54.
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(Posted as Black Fighter)
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(25-Jun-2003 at 20:58)


To any one who has not yet allready condemned this 'god' for his cruelty (all over the bible) and injustice (against women, gays, babies), the above post may seem a little bit tó hard.

However jh211988 is not just an exaggerating fundamentalist, the bible actually tells us a story similar to this!

Job
(God and the Devil place a bet...Job is a righteous man, follows Gods rules but still God allows him too loose everything. Is God playing games with us then? Seriously, the more cruelties I read the more I think of him as a - censored -)
#42  
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(26-Jun-2003 at 00:58)


Quote:
(Originally posted by Black Fighter)

To any one who has not yet allready condemned this 'god' for his cruelty (all over the bible) and injustice (against women, gays, babies), the above post may seem a little bit tó hard.

However jh211988 is not just an exaggerating fundamentalist, the bible actually tells us a story similar to this!

Job
(God and the Devil place a bet...Job is a righteous man, follows Gods rules but still God allows him too loose everything. Is God playing games with us then? Seriously, the more cruelties I read the more I think of him as a - censored -)
he's GOD after all, why question Him?

Sounds trite, but it's true. In Job's case, God allowed him to lose everything, because God was confidant that Job's faith would stand. Read the end of Job, Job get's ten-fold back in the end of everything. The testing was from the devil, God was talking bout how good a serveant Job was, when the devil decided to test that, and God said yes, of course He did, Job was his most faithful serveant of that time.

It's not 'playing games', any more than your parents allowing you to crash your car instead of insisting on you not driving till you're 70 is 'playing games'. Job didn't understand why he was being so tested, but his faith still didn't waver. He didn't curse God, so why are you trying to make God out as someone to be cursed because of that example? It's like going up to a citizen of a poor country (say timbuktoo) who's starving and all and saying 'that king of yours sucks, he's not taking enough care of you', if the citizen himself (who's doing the suffering) still says 'hey I've got a great King, maybe I don't understand what he does as king, but he's still great' then who are you to say different?

-Part of the UT Christian Community
#43  
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(Posted as marsii)
Posts: 57/2856
(26-Jun-2003 at 03:38)


Why not question him. He is a human creation.
#44  
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(26-Jun-2003 at 05:17)


I'm GOD. I say you go to hell. Now, go to hell and don't question me, Ketam.

Is this what you want to hear? You've served Him whole life, you've debated for Him the whole time in UT, are you not going to question GOD at all?

I can write a composition today, and two thousand years down the road, something i wrote about comes true, will people think i'm a prophet? Will people read my essay in a church?
I reckon if i were to write one whole book, some things are bound to turn up in the future.

Inverted Angels, Gather

R.I.P. Marc-Vivien Foe (1975 - 2003)
#45  
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(Posted as jh211988)
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(26-Jun-2003 at 08:18)


Inverted Angel, not only some came true from the Bible, 2000 prophecies out of 2500 came true down to the last letter.

So, having some in a whole book is not enough.

Anyway, if God asks me to burn in Hell(which I truly doubt will happen), I will go. I made a decision to have unwavering faith just like Job.

And, from your posts, I assume that you want recognition for every good deed you do. Guess what, you get nothing. Coz' doing a good deed for recognition is like trading. It totally lacks virtue and unselfishness.

Warlyik, I don't get what you mean.

Anyway, God gives back 10 fold or 100 fold for everything that He takes. I have seen this happen to me.

Religion is the mental disease of the masses.
"Once again, religion is like sniffing gasoline. Both cause permanant brain damage." -- Obsidian

Last edited by dothackRAVE, 26-Jun-2003 at 08:21.
#46  
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(26-Jun-2003 at 10:01)


It's only right i get every good deed accounted for if he's gonna list my sins one by one.

it's been a long time since the bible was 1st written, like i said, anything could happen ... and it's human interpretation of the bible after something with similar resemblance happen.

Inverted Angels, Gather

R.I.P. Marc-Vivien Foe (1975 - 2003)
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(Posted as jh211988)
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(26-Jun-2003 at 10:21)


Such desire is not condoned by many.

Christianity does not, because such desire is considered bribing God.

So does Buddhism. It teaches that we shall forgo all desires.

Religion is the mental disease of the masses.
"Once again, religion is like sniffing gasoline. Both cause permanant brain damage." -- Obsidian
#48  
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(Posted as Black Fighter)
Posts: 1529/4986
(26-Jun-2003 at 10:25)


Why question God?
Because there are countless examples of his cruel behaviour against the innocent. He kills childeren, even babies. He orders to kill homosexuals, babies, woman and elderly people.

We can not say that God is a good God, as his playing with humans like he does in Job and actually all over the bible is not something to be proud of. If that is the kind of God you want to follow then I only think of you as a sad person, God is as cruel as can be and yes that makes it so that we can question him.

Prophecies
Errr...2000 out of 2500?

1) I have a sincere objection;
- A prophecy coming true is a mere interpretation of humans, usually an extremely far fetched interpretation
- I hope you didn't count prophecies in the bible that supposedly came true later on in the bible : especially the prophecies Matthew uses are ridiculous and in no way related to Jesus
- Any other religion has the same claims of prophecies, so do many mediums and people like Nostradamus or their followers
- A book like Mark which is written way later then the actual life of Jesus doesn't count either. Mark quotes Jesus saying that Jerusalem will be destroyed while we know now that the book of Mark is written shortly after the destruction of Jerusalem.

2) In fact virtually none of the prophecies in the bible came true.
http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/prophecy.html
http://www.infidels.org/library/maga.../3proph95.html
#49  
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(26-Jun-2003 at 16:27)


Quote:
(Originally posted by Black Fighter)

Why question God?
Because there are countless examples of his cruel behaviour against the innocent. He kills childeren, even babies. He orders to kill homosexuals, babies, woman and elderly people.

We can not say that God is a good God, as his playing with humans like he does in Job and actually all over the bible is not something to be proud of. If that is the kind of God you want to follow then I only think of you as a sad person, God is as cruel as can be and yes that makes it so that we can question him.
actually, you mean YOU cannot say that God is a good God. I can.

God will NOT fit into your mind, if He could He wouldn't be God now would He? He defines what good is and is not, so if His definition isn't the same as yours, well, tough cookies man. The 'orders' to kill ppl all had reasons, and He was good enough even to give those reasons (in the bible reasons are almost always recorded), He doesn't have to. Killing is not always wrong, even the American constitution acknowledges that. Complete destruction of the tribes in Canaan when Isreal entered was necessary, because of what happened later, Isreal neglected to destroy some, out of greed for the property, and because of that those few who were NOT destroyed corrupted the people of Isreal and brought about their ruin. Ditto for homosexuality, which is a sin punishable by death according to the bible.

My God is not a God who follows me or what I think. He's the God that I follow, there's a difference. Even if I don't understand His motives (like Job) I still won't and shouldn't question Him, because He's God after all.

Quote:
Prophecies
Errr...2000 out of 2500?

1) I have a sincere objection;
- A prophecy coming true is a mere interpretation of humans, usually an extremely far fetched interpretation
- I hope you didn't count prophecies in the bible that supposedly came true later on in the bible : especially the prophecies Matthew uses are ridiculous and in no way related to Jesus
- Any other religion has the same claims of prophecies, so do many mediums and people like Nostradamus or their followers
- A book like Mark which is written way later then the actual life of Jesus doesn't count either. Mark quotes Jesus saying that Jerusalem will be destroyed while we know now that the book of Mark is written shortly after the destruction of Jerusalem.
I agree with you that the truth of prophecy is merely in the interpretation, but the same is true about the UN-truth of prophecy, a Christian might see this prophecy as fulfilled, but an athiest might say "oh, it wasn't done right down to the letter" and say that it wasn't. Both are matters of opinion.

Matthew uses prophecy that according to you is in no way related to Jesus, but it fits when you read Matthew. Of course it does, because that's where it's meant to be. Again I must point out that prophecy is NOT an exact science (perhaps a result of free will?) and that the opinions of the prophet himself affects how the prophecy is viewed. There were tons of prophecy's concerning the coming of a messiah, in Isaiah especially, and the Gospels record them and their fulfilment. Sure, there are some that seem to be taken out of context, but perhaps that's the whole reason they were written in the first place. God never stated that each word in the bible only refers to one event, or that only the literal interpretation of a prophecy should be taken. For example, a prophecy about 'not one stone shall be left on another' doesn't literally mean that if you can find 2 stones that were unseperated the prophecy is disproved.

Quote:
2) In fact virtually none of the prophecies in the bible came true.
http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/prophecy.html
http://www.infidels.org/library/maga.../3proph95.html
As stated above, I have no time to go through pain-stakingly prepared lists such as those listed there, as I'm sure you have no time to go through whole sites on the Christian faith that I could put here. Do us a favour and refrain from referring to other web-pages, not many ppl have that sort of time. Just type out whatever you want to say.

-Part of the UT Christian Community
#50  
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(27-Jun-2003 at 00:13)


Forget about the 1st URl, just go to the 2nd

read and quote from there

Inverted Angels, Gather

R.I.P. Marc-Vivien Foe (1975 - 2003)
#51  
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(Posted as dravid)
Posts: 533/1184
(27-Jun-2003 at 04:30)
Quote:
(Originally posted by Inverted Angel)

Forget about the 1st URl, just go to the 2nd

read and quote from there
I read it, and it is a load of rubbish. It is very easy to take a statement here and there, give his own interpretation of what he thinks it is, and then show that it is wrong. Problem is in the interpretation though...

And just so you know, there are plenty of objective biblical scholars who don't believe what this guy says... that's the thing about the internet. you can make a web site, and say what you want on anything and no one can really question it!
#52  
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(27-Jun-2003 at 06:08)


Quote:
(Originally posted by dravid)
I read it, and it is a load of rubbish. It is very easy to take a statement here and there, give his own interpretation of what he thinks it is, and then show that it is wrong. Problem is in the interpretation though...
It's interpretation all right, but isn't that what Christians do too? They interpret the bible, just different version of interpretation, so who's right? Your guess' as good as mine.

Inverted Angels, Gather

R.I.P. Marc-Vivien Foe (1975 - 2003)
#53  
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(Posted as Black Fighter)
Posts: 1546/4986
(27-Jun-2003 at 09:31)


Quote:
actually, you mean YOU cannot say that God is a good God. I can.
God will NOT fit into your mind, if He could He wouldn't be God now would He? He defines what good is and is not, so if His definition isn't the same as yours, well, tough cookies man. The 'orders' to kill ppl all had reasons, and He was good enough even to give those reasons (in the bible reasons are almost always recorded), He doesn't have to.
Quote:
My God is not a God who follows me or what I think. He's the God that I follow, there's a difference. Even if I don't understand His motives (like Job) I still won't and shouldn't question Him, because He's God after all.
If God defines what is Good and what is Bad then before he pointed at something saying "ey, that is good!" it must have been neutral. Before God decided if something was good or bad, it was neutral as after all it is God who says what something is.
His opinion is therefore without arguements and Good and Bad are just baseless opinions.

Why follow that God?

Plus, you believe in a God who gave you free choice and intelligence. If that God then goes on doing incomprehensible things, doing cruel things and giving insane reasons for it (killing childeren because of their fathers actions, killing kids for teasing some guy, sending lions, bears, serpents to kill humans, opening the earth to kill people - even innocents as the bible states), after all those things done by God, is it fair for him to ask blind faith of us?
Humans are smart and have free choice, why does he expect us to follow a God like that and even call him good?

Quote:
As stated above, I have no time to go through pain-stakingly prepared lists such as those listed there, as I'm sure you have no time to go through whole sites on the Christian faith that I could put here. Do us a favour and refrain from referring to other web-pages, not many ppl have that sort of time. Just type out whatever you want to say.
A shame you don't have time. These clearly show how Christians and bible writers take things completely out of context.

Your entire believe is based on something full of flaws, but you don't have time to look at these flaws...
#54  
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(Posted as jh211988)
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Posts: 148/2492
(27-Jun-2003 at 18:01)


Quote:
Your entire believe is based on something full of flaws, but you don't have time to look at these flaws...
I don't think so.

The contradictions that you saw were mainly mistranslations from Latin to English.

Also, the New King James version of the Bible was written in modern English, which meant that in the process some of the words were twisted, and you can blame King James for that.

Lastly, the Bible's words are meant to protect us. It teaches us our virtue as followers of God and at the same time, it keeps us away from trouble(as in homosexuality, lying, premarital sex, etc.).

You may think this is restriction of freedom by God. But, personally, I saw many people who blossomed under the guidance of God. He takes, but He pays it back ten fold.

Lastly, if you're gonna counter the part on virtue, please don't say, "But the Old Testement said this, it said that..."

It's worthless. Jesus returned to pay for our sins so that we don't have to die for it, but instead, need only to repent.

If you read about Martin Luther, you would understand what I mean. It's no longer what you do to repay your sins, it's your faith!

Religion is the mental disease of the masses.
"Once again, religion is like sniffing gasoline. Both cause permanant brain damage." -- Obsidian
#55  
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(Posted as marsii)
Posts: 121/2856
(05-Jul-2003 at 00:36)


Quote:
(Originally posted by jh211988)

I don't think so.

The contradictions that you saw were mainly mistranslations from Latin to English.

Also, the New King James version of the Bible was written in modern English, which meant that in the process some of the words were twisted, and you can blame King James for that.

Lastly, the Bible's words are meant to protect us. It teaches us our virtue as followers of God and at the same time, it keeps us away from trouble(as in homosexuality, lying, premarital sex, etc.).

You may think this is restriction of freedom by God. But, personally, I saw many people who blossomed under the guidance of God. He takes, but He pays it back ten fold.

Lastly, if you're gonna counter the part on virtue, please don't say, "But the Old Testement said this, it said that..."

It's worthless. Jesus returned to pay for our sins so that we don't have to die for it, but instead, need only to repent.

If you read about Martin Luther, you would understand what I mean. It's no longer what you do to repay your sins, it's your faith!
What are the real translations if the other ones are wrong?
#56  
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(Posted as jh211988)
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Posts: 174/2492
(05-Jul-2003 at 02:48)


I can't read Latin...,

But my Cell Group leader can. He knows Latin like the back of his hand, so I got him to translate.

Religion is the mental disease of the masses.
"Once again, religion is like sniffing gasoline. Both cause permanant brain damage." -- Obsidian
#57  
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(05-Jul-2003 at 04:06)


Quote:
(Originally posted by Black Fighter)

If God defines what is Good and what is Bad then before he pointed at something saying "ey, that is good!" it must have been neutral. Before God decided if something was good or bad, it was neutral as after all it is God who says what something is.
His opinion is therefore without arguements and Good and Bad are just baseless opinions.

Why follow that God?
What would you consider then to be 'based opinions' (I'm pretty sure that was horrible grammar, excuse me).

To me, the mere fact that God said it would be base enough. Who decides what's true and what isn't? The most powerful person of course (join a street gang and you'll find out). With God being the tip of the hierarchy here, I'd think His decisions are the ones that finalize everything.

Quote:
Plus, you believe in a God who gave you free choice and intelligence. If that God then goes on doing incomprehensible things, doing cruel things and giving insane reasons for it (killing childeren because of their fathers actions, killing kids for teasing some guy, sending lions, bears, serpents to kill humans, opening the earth to kill people - even innocents as the bible states), after all those things done by God, is it fair for him to ask blind faith of us?
Humans are smart and have free choice, why does he expect us to follow a God like that and even call him good?
and who gave us that free choice in the first place?

Your arguments would have bearing, IF humans had gotten their free choice by rebelling against God and setting up their own utopia, governed by their own rules.

Wait, they DID rebel, and all it got them was pain and suffering, exactly as God had said it would.

Sure, killing kids is wrong. What if those kids had been teasing some other kids? Still wrong? yeah, probably. What if they had been teasing an adult? Remember this is Jewish olden day culture, which places a lot more value on respect towards elders, kinda like Asian cultures today, exactly the opposite of Western culture. What if they had been teasing a prophet of God, BECAUSE he was a prophet?

Analyse the situations properly, God never ordered deaths for no reason. Most times those deaths were punishments, and the punishments came by family, because the family is responsible for the actions of each member.


Quote:
A shame you don't have time. These clearly show how Christians and bible writers take things completely out of context.

Your entire believe is based on something full of flaws, but you don't have time to look at these flaws...
actually, it shows how busy I am

Please, do me a favour and post the arguments seperately here. I'm not some 70-yr-old retiree who can afford to spend hours in front of the computer screen reading some website and then researching the answers to the questions raised.

And yes, I have time to look at these flaws. That's what I'm doing in UT after all, it's not out of some misguided notion of converting the lot of you (won't happen). I find that some of the posts actually make me question my faith, and makes it stronger when I research and find answers to those questions. What I don't have time for is reading a whole compiled website, whether or not it agrees with me. I doubt you'd have time if our positions were reversed. I don't LIVE on UT after all.

-Part of the UT Christian Community
#58  
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(Posted as jh211988)
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Posts: 180/2492
(06-Jul-2003 at 15:29)


Black Fighter..., finallllllllyyyyyyyyy I've found this damned thread.

Anyway, I'm here to answer your question why Jesus "couldn't" fulfill His own prophecy of His return.

Anyway, I've got the answers from my Cell Group Leader by email.

Here's her email:

Quote:
Dear John,
in reply to the questions you've asked regarding the "contradictions" of the coming of Christ, the main issue involved here is "why hasn't Jesus came back although the Bible says, He will return shortly... etc"

The thing to note here is the word "generation". What is the definition, what does God means when He mentioned "generation"?
Extract from Nelson Study Bible:
Generation may mean "race", indicating that Israel as a people will not cease to exist before God fulfills His promises to them.
This is true as the race of Israel is still existing till this day.
Another possibility is that the word describes a particular era in which people will see the end times. That is, the events will occur so rapidly that all will happen within one generation.
In another words, "generation" refers to the whole "grace period" God has given to men for them to repent of their sins and to come back to God once again and this grace period grace hasn't ended yet and will end with the 2nd coming of Christ. Hence with this definition of "generation" in mind, re-read the passages again and you will understand why Jesus hasn't come back again and that the passages are not contradictions.

Feel free to come back to me again if there's any doubts or anything unclear.
Hope this answers your question...

Religion is the mental disease of the masses.
"Once again, religion is like sniffing gasoline. Both cause permanant brain damage." -- Obsidian

Last edited by dothackRAVE, 06-Jul-2003 at 15:30.
#59  
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(07-Jul-2003 at 07:33)


I posted that before...

but anyway, it's good to get confirmation that I'm not a lone nutcase

-Part of the UT Christian Community
#60  
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