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Posts: 1794/1865
(28-Jan-2005 at 11:55)


exclamation mark "Moral Values" - a short speech

What has this world come to? What happened to the moral values that we all used to know?

Debate over the matters of both gay marriage and abortion have caused tempers to flare on both sides of the fence on the issue of what should be done. Political rivals pound the messages relentlessly into their citizen's heads to recruit members to their cause. In terms of extremism, troglodytic conservative Christians make constant efforts to cudgel anything they cannot or will not understand, whereas bleeding hearts flock together to legislate whatever they can get their hands on to redefine political correctness to a whole new level.

Yet all of these people are perfectly willing to stand idly by while the hungry starve in the street and the homeless resort to begging for pocket change, and poverty rates continue to escalate.

Is this what moral values have become?

Most of us can remember a day when moral values meant eliminating poverty rates, feeding the hungry, sheltering the homeless, bending down and picking up the less unfortunate. However, we have delved so far into a level of stressing over comparitively trivial manners like the use of the word "Marriage" and who should be banned for subliminally making kids gay (preposterous!) that we've forgotten what moral values are really about. Moral values are about helping our fellow man, to live the dream, and to help others do the same, not this flashy new concept of "morality" where anyone who disagrees with you is wrong. Hopefully the world will realize this and, instead of bickering over the trivial manners we can't agree on, work together to resolve the things that we need to accomplish most.

Morality is not a partisan matter. So why do we treat it like it is?

Thank you for your time, and good night.

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(28-Jan-2005 at 12:12)


Re: "Moral Values" - a short speech

Quote:
(Originally posted by Lonely Tylenol)

What has this world come to? What happened to the moral values that we all used to know?

Debate over the matters of both gay marriage and abortion have caused tempers to flare on both sides of the fence on the issue of what should be done. Political rivals pound the messages relentlessly into their citizen's heads to recruit members to their cause. In terms of extremism, troglodytic conservative Christians make constant efforts to cudgel anything they cannot or will not understand, whereas bleeding hearts flock together to legislate whatever they can get their hands on to redefine political correctness to a whole new level.

Yet all of these people are perfectly willing to stand idly by while the hungry starve in the street and the homeless resort to begging for pocket change, and poverty rates continue to escalate.

Is this what moral values have become?

Most of us can remember a day when moral values meant eliminating poverty rates, feeding the hungry, sheltering the homeless, bending down and picking up the less unfortunate. However, we have delved so far into a level of stressing over comparitively trivial manners like the use of the word "Marriage" and who should be banned for subliminally making kids gay (preposterous!) that we've forgotten what moral values are really about. Moral values are about helping our fellow man, to live the dream, and to help others do the same, not this flashy new concept of "morality" where anyone who disagrees with you is wrong. Hopefully the world will realize this and, instead of bickering over the trivial manners we can't agree on, work together to resolve the things that we need to accomplish most.

Morality is not a partisan matter. So why do we treat it like it is?

Thank you for your time, and good night.

Since when has moral values had to do with helping the poor?

Moral Values have always been about preserving what we see as the way of things.

People opposed the Suffragettes, because it would go against the moral values of the day.

In western countries today, a man would be arrested, mobbed and shamed if he even thought about marrying a 14 year old girl, but in some African countries, older men often marry young girls of 14.

People, like snowflakes, are all slightly different, but we all follow the same patterns -Stewie
Believe those who are seeking the truth; doubt those who find it.

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(28-Jan-2005 at 14:57)


A couple of old thoughts come to mind:

Altruism is not morality, you can't 'legislate' morality, you can't help those unwilling to help themselves but you could help those who are unable, and it is much better to teach a man to fish than to give him one every day.

I have to say that I believe you've too closely equated morality and charity. You nail it however when you say people are so caught up in bickering that both morality and charity are often put on the back burner.

Man is the only animal that blushes, or needs to.-- Mark Twain
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(28-Jan-2005 at 15:50)


I agree Michael, though I think some people assume that because many laws are seen as morally right, such as Murder, it is becuase of their moral status they are illegal, when it is the fact they cause a disadvantage to someone else they are crimes. (I know in the case of murder to say it is a disadvantage is a major understatement).

Morality is a matter of perspective: Hitler, for example, felt it morally right to exterminate the Jews.

People, like snowflakes, are all slightly different, but we all follow the same patterns -Stewie
Believe those who are seeking the truth; doubt those who find it.

Some people are like Slinkies- absolutely useless, but always fun to push down stairs!
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(28-Jan-2005 at 21:48)


Morality is perception of right and wrong. I think the both of you have forgotten this. Morality isn't the word "Marriage" or slapping a TABOO sticker on whatever you don't understand. We've allowed ourselves to believe that the only moral issues that really matter are the petty ones that we fight over, instead of the grand ones we could agree to help others with.

If you give a homeless man a meal, you are doing a good deed, a morally justifiable act. Thus it pertains to morality. Such acts of good morality consist of all those that contribute to the greater good of mankind, not just the newest hot topic. We have wrapped our minds around the silly notion that morality is all about the sin and the immoral that we have lost all sense of morality for the greater good. Tell me, does not I Corinthians say,
Quote:
I Corinthians 13
1 Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not charity, I am become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal.
2 And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries, and all knowledge; and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing.
3 And though I bestow all my goods to feed the poor, and though I give my body to be burned, and have not charity, it profiteth me nothing.
4 Charity suffereth long, and is kind; charity envieth not; charity vaunteth not itself, is not puffed up,
5 Doth not behave itself unseemly, seeketh not her own, is not easily provoked, thinketh no evil;
Leviticus Ch. 19 bears two passages somewhat related to charity.

[quote]9 And when ye reap the harvest of your land, thou shalt not wholly reap the corners of thy field, neither shalt thou gather the gleanings of thy harvest.
10 And thou shalt not glean thy vineyard, neither shalt thou gather every grape of thy vineyard; thou shalt leave them for the poor and stranger: I am the LORD your God.

Quote:
18 Thou shalt not avenge, nor bear any grudge against the children of thy people, but thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself: I am the LORD.
Why should we not give our fellow man a hand? Certainly morality is a matter of right and wrong, and not just perversion over what should be deemed "wrong"?

Quote:
it is much better to teach a man to fish than to give him one every day.
Then we should have a change of heart and teach a man to fish, Michael.

Quote:
You nail it however when you say people are so caught up in bickering that both morality and charity are often put on the back burner.
I hope so, or my speech was all for naught.

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(28-Jan-2005 at 22:18)


Quote:
(Originally posted by Lonely Tylenol) Then we should have a change of heart and teach a man to fish, Michael.
We do. Even if he loses his fishing job, we supplement him with fish for, I believe it's 13 weeks now. A high school education is essentially free to the student and anyone can get a decent job with just a high school education. There are plenty of grant programs for low income citizens as well. What exactly would you have us do, expand welfare and essentially force altruism?

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(28-Jan-2005 at 22:53)


Quote:
(Originally posted by Michael1)

We do. Even if he loses his fishing job, we supplement him with fish for, I believe it's 13 weeks now. A high school education is essentially free to the student and anyone can get a decent job with just a high school education. There are plenty of grant programs for low income citizens as well. What exactly would you have us do, expand welfare and essentially force altruism?
Where do you live that you can get a decent job with JUST a high school education. If you want to do anything more than flip burgers or clean some thing of some one else you need a college education.

I can see however where LT is going with this. What alot of people have decided to target as a "Moral issue" is nothing but an inevitibility that through social change will become the norm.

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(29-Jan-2005 at 01:03)


Quote:
(Originally posted by Kyleesha)

Where do you live that you can get a decent job with JUST a high school education. If you want to do anything more than flip burgers or clean some thing of some one else you need a college education.

I can see however where LT is going with this. What alot of people have decided to target as a "Moral issue" is nothing but an inevitibility that through social change will become the norm.
actually, all of those jobs you mentioned are ones that don't require even a high school education...

And not all "moral issues" will become social norms...hell i still know plenty of people from Louisiana alone that don't even accept the fact that black people are equal to them...and thats been going on for hundreds of years and will never stop...and don't say that it's not a social norm, b/c where i'm from, to NOT be racist is pretty crazy. Alot of people just honestly don't understand, or can't accept it. Probably the same thing as gay marriage etc.

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And life flows on within you and without you
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(29-Jan-2005 at 16:34)


Quote:
(Originally posted by Kyleesha) Where do you live that you can get a decent job with JUST a high school education. If you want to do anything more than flip burgers or clean some thing of some one else you need a college education.
You have got to be kidding me if you don't know plenty of people with good jobs who have never graduated from college. I'm not saying that's it's preferrable not to continue your education, but certainly not required.

Man is the only animal that blushes, or needs to.-- Mark Twain
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(29-Jan-2005 at 16:53)


I think that you can tackle all of the issues at once. The thing is that helping the poor has become old hat, and so the news media focuses on new developments such as the gay marriage debate. That does not mean that the other issues are forgotten.
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(29-Jan-2005 at 18:00)
Hey, if it is a marriage between a man and a woman, i am ok with it, but hey, i wont agree to homosexual marriage. It is not that i am not concern with the the plight and poverty of the unfortunate, i donate as much as i can, i help as i see fit, but i just dun understand why when mine self interest is being undermined, i am being told to mind other people business, when sometimes they themselves are doing fine or refusing to get help.

Moral, i give u one proverb from chinese, we cannot have the intention to harm a person but we cannot let our guard down against other people. People are driven by greed, the desire to go for what they wish for such as recognisation for gays, more money for any workers or businessman, beauty etc etc. It is not that they are in the same league but basically they are asking for what they desired, and there will be clashes of interest, why would other person forgoes his or hers interest for urs? Unless u can provide an win win solution, i seriously doubt anybody will just listen to one side of the story.

forget about it...it is really dumb whether people will ever read it...
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(29-Jan-2005 at 20:26)


Quote:
(Originally posted by Michael1)

A couple of old thoughts come to mind:

Altruism is not morality, you can't 'legislate' morality, you can't help those unwilling to help themselves but you could help those who are unable, and it is much better to teach a man to fish than to give him one every day.
By your argument on many subjects I'd say you have other ideas about that.
Quote:
You have got to be kidding me if you don't know plenty of people with good jobs who have never graduated from college. I'm not saying that's it's preferrable not to continue your education, but certainly not required.
there are a couple exceptions,Bill Gates being the biggest one, but to be HIRED at a good paying job usually REQUIRES a degree. Any degree really. With organized labor rolling over like dogs, there are very few good paying jobs for people with HIgh School educations.

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(30-Jan-2005 at 23:10)


Federal/State/local government subsidized housing would be one issue the politicians should be focusing on instead of gay marriage or abortion.

Also they could fix some outdated/unfair building laws that promote wasteful time in court.

Building code should lean further still toward the direction that LEED is taking the building industry.

I could go on with well known issues that are also important(like Social Security etc...) but the issues listed above are the issues at the top of my list. Abortion/gay marriage debate would be somewhere around the bottom of the list on "things that need fixing."

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Anyone inexperienced puts faith in every word, but the shrewd one considers his steps.
- Proverbs 14-15
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(31-Jan-2005 at 04:00)
As a troglodytic conservative Christian, I would like to point out that we are not, nor never were against charity. What i dont believe in is government mandated charity. It hardly holds the same moral weight when someone is forced to help another, and I think it should be a decision based thing. I personally give to charity, but if the guy next door doesnt want to, I dont think he should be forced to with taxes.
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(31-Jan-2005 at 22:51)


Quote:
As a troglodytic conservative Christian, I would like to point out that we are not, nor never were against charity.
I never said that.

Quote:
What i dont believe in is government mandated charity.
I never said I was talking about government, I'm talking about the people here. The citizens of America--and the rest of the world--have gotten themselves so caught up in this gay crusade (both for- and against-) and other relatively petty issues, that the starving people on the streets has become second in thought by comparison. "Moral values" has been defined by the right as preserving human life through birth and maintaining tradition (gay marriage). By the left it's become the woman's right to choose (abortion) and the use of the word "marriage". My position on these has been established, but this is not a debate for these things.

Basically, my point is...

People have gotten themselves so caught up in doing what they think is right that they have neglected doing what they know is right.

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(01-Feb-2005 at 21:35)


Quote:
I never said I was talking about government, I'm talking about the people here. The citizens of America--and the rest of the world--have gotten themselves so caught up in this gay crusade (both for- and against-) and other relatively petty issues, that the starving people on the streets has become second in thought by comparison. "Moral values" has been defined by the right as preserving human life through birth and maintaining tradition (gay marriage). By the left it's become the woman's right to choose (abortion) and the use of the word "marriage". My position on these has been established, but this is not a debate for these things.
Again, refer to one of my biggest lessons. Just because it isn't in the media, doesn't mean it doesn't happen. Yes, there's been an infatuation recently with the gay marriage issue, and the church scandals, and whatnot. But the reality of the matter is that the majority of, if not all of, parishes continue with their charity work for the poor and homeless. I was fortunate enough to be present (read: I had to sit through at the start of mass, and my dad kept waking me up when I tried to sleep through it) for the Bishop's Appeal at home in Colorado. They're asking for contributions and more money to continue to do good works. Some things you might not agree with, such as keeping schools open and subsidizing the costs so that lower income families in the parish have the quality education available to them.
They're also seeking to expand their charity work with the poor and homeless in colorado, keeping the soup kitchens and homeless shelters open. Hell, most of the parishes I've been too had some program like that, and while they weren't rolling in money, they weren't lacking either. Nor were they lacking in volunteers.

Quote:
Morality is not a partisan matter. So why do we treat it like it is?
It's not the morality that's partisan, it's the solutions. No one's going to come out and say poverty is a good thing. One side say's it's bad, we should campaign for more private donations, and the other says it's bad, we should take money from the rich and give it to them. THAT'S where the partisan bickering comes in. You all know which side I stand on.

Quote:
What alot of people have decided to target as a "Moral issue" is nothing but an inevitibility that through social change will become the norm.
Speficially what? Gov't mandated charity?

Quote:
Where do you live that you can get a decent job with JUST a high school education. If you want to do anything more than flip burgers or clean some thing of some one else you need a college education.
Not really. I could easily make a living for myself right out of highschool, or even without graduating. Would I live a great life and take trips to the bahama's every summer? Not likely, but would I be able to survive, you bet. You get what you put into it though. There are always opportunities available for college, just because you can't afford to go full time doesn't mean you can't go. A college education is necessary to succeed in life, but if your goal is just to get by, you can do it without a degree. Then it all comes down to how much do you want out of life.

Quote:
there are a couple exceptions,Bill Gates being the biggest one, but to be HIRED at a good paying job usually REQUIRES a degree. Any degree really. With organized labor rolling over like dogs, there are very few good paying jobs for people with HIgh School educations.
Sure, good paying jobs, but not everyone is entitled to a good paying job. Sometimes you gotta work for it, you know.



Basicly, charity is a great thing that a lot of people do daily. The major political divide here in teh country is how to solve that problem. Hell look at my convo with Elan. We both agreed about the problem, we both vehemently disagreed about the solution. It all comes down to how you want to solve the problem, and whether you actually take stes to fix it, or just make lofty speeches about doing so (not saying that's what you're doing here).

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(01-Feb-2005 at 22:30)


Quote:
It's not the morality that's partisan, it's the solutions. No one's going to come out and say poverty is a good thing. One side say's it's bad, we should campaign for more private donations, and the other says it's bad, we should take money from the rich and give it to them. THAT'S where the partisan bickering comes in. You all know which side I stand on.
Solutions should be made by the people. Bickering over the solutions doesn't even amount to anything. Work together and achieve a common goal my common means. You don't have to force the government or other people to lend a helping hand, you have to make an effort to do it yourself.

Quote:
Speficially what? Gov't mandated charity?
No, targeted issues. Namely, abortion and gay marriage.

One way or another, they'll become accepted societal norms. All we're doing is slowing and distorting the political process. If we came to a compromise, nobody would need to worry.

Quote:
We both agreed about the problem, we both vehemently disagreed about the solution.
Take note the solution does not have to involve an involuntary process, you can join together and help an organization in need. Start a soup kitchen in a town and use donations to feed the homeless there. Use your imagination. It doesn't have to be something involving government, just help someone out.

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(01-Feb-2005 at 22:30)


Re: "Moral Values" - a short speech

Quote:
(Originally posted by Lonely Tylenol)

What has this world come to? What happened to the moral values that we all used to know?

Debate over the matters of both gay marriage and abortion have caused tempers to flare on both sides of the fence on the issue of what should be done. Political rivals pound the messages relentlessly into their citizen's heads to recruit members to their cause. In terms of extremism, troglodytic conservative Christians make constant efforts to cudgel anything they cannot or will not understand, whereas bleeding hearts flock together to legislate whatever they can get their hands on to redefine political correctness to a whole new level.

Yet all of these people are perfectly willing to stand idly by while the hungry starve in the street and the homeless resort to begging for pocket change, and poverty rates continue to escalate.

Is this what moral values have become?

Most of us can remember a day when moral values meant eliminating poverty rates, feeding the hungry, sheltering the homeless, bending down and picking up the less unfortunate. However, we have delved so far into a level of stressing over comparitively trivial manners like the use of the word "Marriage" and who should be banned for subliminally making kids gay (preposterous!) that we've forgotten what moral values are really about. Moral values are about helping our fellow man, to live the dream, and to help others do the same, not this flashy new concept of "morality" where anyone who disagrees with you is wrong. Hopefully the world will realize this and, instead of bickering over the trivial manners we can't agree on, work together to resolve the things that we need to accomplish most.

Morality is not a partisan matter. So why do we treat it like it is?

Thank you for your time, and good night.
I'm not going to say that you don't have a point, but I look at the outpouring of compassion for the victims of the tsunami in the form of monitary relief and even people traveling to those areas affected to help, as a sign that people in general are moral and do have compassion for their fellow humans.

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(01-Feb-2005 at 23:00)


Quote:
Solutions should be made by the people. Bickering over the solutions doesn't even amount to anything. Work together and achieve a common goal my common means. You don't have to force the government or other people to lend a helping hand, you have to make an effort to do it yourself.
Again, many do make the effort, but many also argue that it isn't enough. That's where the bickering comes from.

Quote:
One way or another, they'll become accepted societal norms. All we're doing is slowing and distorting the political process. If we came to a compromise, nobody would need to worry.
It'll be a cold day in hell before I accept gay marriage and abortion as "the norm", and I'm sure there are many who feel like that.

Quote:
Take note the solution does not have to involve an involuntary process, you can join together and help an organization in need. Start a soup kitchen in a town and use donations to feed the homeless there. Use your imagination. It doesn't have to be something involving government, just help someone out.
I volunteered at a soup kitchen last semester, and whether or not I'll continute depends on my work schedule this semester.

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(02-Feb-2005 at 00:10)


Quote:
It'll be a cold day in hell before I accept gay marriage and abortion as "the norm", and I'm sure there are many who feel like that.
Ah, but if only you read the first four words...

Quote:
I volunteered at a soup kitchen last semester, and whether or not I'll continute depends on my work schedule this semester.
Good, good.

Quote:
I'm not going to say that you don't have a point, but I look at the outpouring of compassion for the victims of the tsunami in the form of monitary relief and even people traveling to those areas affected to help, as a sign that people in general are moral and do have compassion for their fellow humans.
I noticed, that's actually how I ended up with the idea for this thread.

So many people take up this partisan bickering over issues that won't save a life that they lose sight of what moral values are really about. Nothing short of 150,000 deaths in the mideast was able to change that. To me, that's just disturbing.

We need to be heard as living beings and get the message out to tone down on the issues that don't matter and begin to recognize those that do. Yes, many people are already doing their part to help those in need, but it is not enough as it is right now. Not that it's bad the way it is, but, well... Oh, to heck with it, it's good and can get better. And that is what I intend to make a reality.

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