[XelNaga UA]

In an outrageous move, which created a dangerous precedent, an US Marine Corps, Christopher VanGoethem, officer was found NOT GUILTY in a Martial Court circus trial <Quantico (Virginia)>.

He has been accused of killing a well-known and respected romanian artist while in mission to Bucharest. He was chief of the security coprs at the US Embassy in Bucharest.

FACTS:

Early December 2004. Christopher VanGoethem was driving his car through Bucharest. At one particular cross-road, he did NOT respect the signs and crossed without taking them into consideration. As a result he smashed into a taxi, killing instantly one passanger on board (Teo Peter - the romanian artist) and injuring the driver.

In the first statement of Christopher VanGoethem, given to romanian authorities arived at the scene of the accident (please note that the officer left the scene, he was later <aproximatly 2 hours> interviewed) admited to crashing into the taxi. He also declared he was coming from a "private party" which later on turned out to be a "visit" to a well-known tollerance house (prostitution). He did not admite to being drunk at the time of the accident ("I drank very little alcohool").

His alcolemy was 0.09 pe mille (please note that the blood samples were taken hours after the time of the accident, and while it would have been possible that the alcohool entered the officer's blood AFTER the accident, his statement assures us that he drank alcohool BEFORE the accident, not AFTER. You may only suspect what his alcolemy was at the time of the accident).

The taxi driver was found without traces of alcohool, and in respect of the road-regulations.

True to the style of US Justice, VanGoethem was taken out of Romania shortly after the 3rd of Dec. accident.

Accused of murder thorough negligence (i don't exactly know the legal term), adultery, obstruction of justice and misleading official declaration, VanGoethem was found guilty only in the last two charges and received a punishment consisting in a "negative recommendation note". He will still serve the US Marine Corps, under the same contract (no disciplinary measures), he will not be demoted and will not spend any time in jail.

Some other inocent "actions" of officers / soldiers of the US Marine Corps:

*January 2006 - Lewis Welshofer Jr. was found guilty in killing an iraqi high-ranking officer (POW).

He was sentenced to a fine of $6.000 and an interdiction to leave the unit for two months. He was acused of puting a plastic bag on the POW's head and siting on his chest untill he chocked to death.

*May 2005 - Sg. Craig Steven Fischer, age 42, at the 86th Military Unit on Mihail Kogalniceanu airport, Romania, killed a man. The man was crossing the street regulamentary, on the cross-walk.

No disciplinary measure. He was found not guilty to all charges.

*April 2003 - An US Apache helicopter bombarded a truck with 15 iraqi civilians on board, in Hilla (Iraq). All passengers were killed. At the same time, an american tank bombarded the Palestina Hotel in Bagdad, where most foreign journalists were stationed. Two Reuters journalists and one techician were injured, a Reuters cameraman was killed, Jose Couso, a cameraman for the spanish television Telecinco was killed also.

There was no trial.

*June 2003 - A truck belonging to the US Army Corps killed an iraqi child in Bagdad.

Again, no trial.

*November 2003 - An iraqi mayor, pro-american, was killed by an US Marine Corps soldier.

No trial.

*March 2002 - Timothy Woodland (age 25), seargent in US Air Force stationed at the US Kadena Base in Japan.

He was convicted of 2 years and 8 moths* for raping a young woman. (*suspended)

*February 2001 - The nuclear submarine "Greenville", with a malfuncitoning sonar, smashed on the japaneese training ship "Ehime Maru", with 35 persons on board (13 cadets of 17 years old). The ship sunk in 10 minutes, only 26 people were saved. A few days earlier, the Commander of the US Forces in the Okinawa island, Earl Haliston, publicly apologised for calling the japaneese authorities "idiots", in an e-mail adressed to his colegues.

No trial, only public apologise.


...and the list could go on.

Years ago, i had a very good oppinion about US in general. After the 1109 attacks, i felt really bad about what happend to them. Nobody deserved that, and i hoped the persons responsible for those actions would be put to justice.

But right now, i hope you americans get what you deserve. I'll let you immagine what the rest of the world wishes you to get, and if you shall continue this way, you might not wait for long. I hope those that killed your parents, brothers, sisters and children, in the 1109 attack and all the others incidents / attacks get to receive some fine, some 1-2 years in jail, or just a "bad recomendation". And let this be your "objective" american justice at work.

[dragula4]

XelNaga UA, how big is romania again? 22~23 million people? we have 290+ million people within our borders. maybe your say in every one of your govermental affairs is heard a just little more over there than it is over here.

please don't blame all americans for the actions of a small few. while i do not agree with the courses of action taken by my government as of late, i cannot go to the military and tell them to retry these men. here in the U.S., civilians have no authority in a military trial whatsoever.

so while these actions are despicable, please do not say that the americans are 'getting what they deserve' when there are terrorist actions against the united states. it's both sickening and unnerving to think that you agree with the mass murder of thousands is punishment enough for the stupidity of few.

[XelNaga UA]

Quote:

it's both sickening and unnerving to think that you agree with the mass murder of thousands is punishment enough for the stupidity of few

- I do not agree, as you should have probably understood reading my post. I actualy said i hoped the people responsable for this would have been brought to justice. And i still hope.

What is the diffrece between the actions of those US Marines did from the actions made by islamic fanatical fundamentalists all over the world? Is there any diffrence between a guy who blows up 100, or 10.000 people and one that kills a child? Would you kill a child to save 1000 americans? How about 10 children? May them be romanian, iraqi or americans? I don't think you would, nor 1, nor 10.

Bottom line, all of those are murderers, criminals.

And yes, i said that i hope you, ALL americans, get what you deserve. For electing and endorsing Bush administration, i hope you will get what you deserve. For the moment, the Bush administration does not deserve "good" things, do they? If you are so repulsed by those actions, and you do not agree with them, than by all means, DO something about it! If you cannot, than this are simply the consequences of your actions.

If your elected gouverment make you deserve good things, than by all means, you should receive them.

Don't think i am ignorant. The romanians got what they deserved. They got people killed on their streets, by foreign soldiers in missions on their territory, and they don't get to say nothing concerning the trial / conviction of those murderers. They got what they deserved because of the treaties signed by to US and Romanian gouverment, that forbids the Romanian authorities to make any judgement on any US official. This country, and most of it's people sicken me. They have no spine, as they did not through most of their "proud" 2200 year - old history.

Do the innocent children, men and wemen of Iraq deserve to die, live in misery, in terror or fear? They probably don't, but this is a consequence of their support for Saddam.

Did the innocent germans deserve to die in bomb raids, live in misery and indignity during and after the Second World War? They probably did not, but this was a consequence of their support for Hitler.

I think you are begining to get the picture. Those question i presented above... I do not believe in them, i don't think the iraqi people deserve to die for one man, or a group of men's actions. Nor did the germans. Nor do the americans. But life is not fair, and all the times, many inocent people will pay for other's mistakes.

Weird how life most eloquently shows one simple rule. For every action, there is a reaction...

Now, everything i've said above is just for the purpose of demonstrating that many of the people that have bad intentions against you, are created by you. I have stated this in other topics too...

Peace!

[chobham]

So, by your logic, we should equate all Romanians with Romanian criminals, correct? What your saying is every Romanian is the equal to the hackers you guys have, the gypsies, and Vlad the Impaler, right? That's exactly what you're saying. Since these americans did these things, every american is just like them. Well, it goes both ways. By your logic, you are automatically JUST like every Romanian criminal.

Vlad Tepes killed hundreds of people and there was no trial. Not even an APOLOGY! I hope the terrorists hit Romania. Every Romanian deserves it!!!

Sounds stupid, doesn't it? So do you.

[Sergiu EnD]

dragula4, you make it sound like the fact that the american justice system(or the military justice system one) is not working as it should look like it is someone else's problem, not a problem of the american people. It's easy for everybody to say "I don't support them, but I can't do anything about". Well, you see, when you voted for that certain party and he won the ellection, he represents you by his actions.
I'm not saying that you deserve that what you got, I'm just saying that you should wake up.

As for you chobham, considering the stereotype examples that you give I can see that you really have no clue regarding the situation. I actually find it funny that you give the example of Vlad Tepes in such a situation, a man that lived before your country was even discovered. And the actions that he has done were against people who broke the law, not against innocent people. So please give some stronger arguments.

[chobham]

Originally Posted by Sergiu EnD:

dragula4, you make it sound like the fact that the american justice system(or the military justice system one) is not working as it should look like it is someone else's problem, not a problem of the american people. It's easy for everybody to say "I don't support them, but I can't do anything about". Well, you see, when you voted for that certain party and he won the ellection, he represents you by his actions.
I'm not saying that you deserve that what you got, I'm just saying that you should wake up.

As for you chobham, considering the stereotype examples that you give I can see that you really have no clue regarding the situation. I actually find it funny that you give the example of Vlad Tepes in such a situation, a man that lived before your country was even discovered. And the actions that he has done were against people who broke the law, not against innocent people. So please give some stronger arguments.

Someone missed "By your logic, you are automatically JUST like every Romanian criminal."

[XelNaga UA]

Quote:

So, by your logic, we should equate all Romanians with Romanian criminals, correct? What your saying is every Romanian is the equal to the hackers you guys have, the gypsies, and Vlad the Impaler, right? That's exactly what you're saying. Since these americans did these things, every american is just like them. Well, it goes both ways. By your logic, you are automatically JUST like every Romanian criminal.

Vlad Tepes killed hundreds of people and there was no trial. Not even an APOLOGY! I hope the terrorists hit Romania. Every Romanian deserves it!!!

Sounds stupid, doesn't it? So do you.

1st. Please, wake up from your ignorant self - centered life, stop believing everything that Hollywood throws at you, and _read_. Vlad the Impaler, as you know it, is a criminal...

Actualy, Vlad the Impaler is one of the most respected and patriotic leaders of my country. Yes, he tortured, impaled and killed thousands of peoples. What YOU know is only this. You do not know the reasons, nor the crimes those people did. Those people were, at least most of them, turkish soldiers. Others were traitors, murderes. Consider it as Martial Law. (It's when they shoot people on the streets without trial, especialy in crisis or in war time, anywhere in this world. It's when thivery is a capital crime.)

At that time, The Otoman Empire could have conquered all of Europe (hint: see the Siege of Viena!) if it were not for this "murderer". Those stories that you so strongly believe in are made up by german settlers thet lived in his country at that time. They invented this story to discredit him in front of the western powers (that actualy feared the turks as much as we did, but, inspite of this, did NOTHING to help repell them) because he restricted their trade. So before you come to Transilvania and hope to see the "real" history of this "murderer vampire" get your history straight.

And... APOLOGY? APOLOGY for what? That they were impaled? They burned churches, raped wemen, killed men, wemen and children. It was WAR, total WAR. Do you apologise for the people held, tortured and killed at Guantanamo bay? At least this "murderer" of ours openly admited we are in WAR. He was not hipocrytical about it, pretending to "help" the poor islamic soldiers.

2nd. I really don't think I am stupid, as long as you don't seem to be able to read past the words i posted, and understand the meaning of my post.

Blunlty, i am refering to the subjective system of justice that you endorse. I am also refering to the fact that although you are appaled by the crimes commited against you, you seem to have such tolerance with the crimes comited BY you against others. Your system of justice has insulted about 23 milion of people. And yes, it is a BIG thing, because this was a scandal involving diplomatic issues, and not the least, it was a murder. A scandal, murder, that your gouverment should have taken greater care of. Which it, not so surprisingly, DID.

You do not have any second thought in invading a country, for presumed reasons (and there is STILL no shread of evidence that Iraq had WMD), yet the same system that preahes "pre-emtive" strikes fids it OK to release a murderer, on the grounds that there are no sufficiend evidences that the one who was killed was at the spot of the crime! In-friggin-credible!!!

[Armitage]

Americas unjustice is systematic. Fighting against it is a obligation on every american nevertheless what he voted or do you think these verdicts wouldnt have been decided the way they were if the democrates were in power?

[Ghaad]

Xelnaga, you might want to listen to the news a bit more attentively...we were given a chance to help put Teo's killer in jail, but unfortunately, neither the taxi driver nor the policeman who came to the scene of the accident went to the US to testify against VanGoethem, meaning that the prosecutors were unable to proove that Teo Peter was in the taxi when the American crashed into it. I know that seems to come from one of Kafka's wrtitings, but by following the law even i would have declared him not guilty if i were in the jury. The fact that he is now free as a bird is not the fault of the American legal system, but our own. It was our government, established by those we voted into office that signed the treaty preventing US troops to be judged on our soil. It is our fault that we didn't care about the trial, making it a public debate theme and thus making the American authorities be more carefull about doing their job. Don't blame the Americans for knowing how to take care of their own better than we do.

On a final note, even if VanGoethem is legally innocent, i still consider him responsible for the accident. And rest assured, if i were given the option, i'd recall our troops from Afghanistan and Irak and also reconsider having American troops on Romania soil. It seems to me that for an ally, they're killing more of us than "our common enemy" terrorism.

[XelNaga UA]

Quote:

Xelnaga, you might want to listen to the news a bit more attentively...we were given a chance to help put Teo's killer in jail, but unfortunately, neither the taxi driver nor the policeman who came to the scene of the accident went to the US to testify against VanGoethem, meaning that the prosecutors were unable to proove that Teo Peter was in the taxi when the American crashed into it. I know that seems to come from one of Kafka's wrtitings, but by following the law even i would have declared him not guilty if i were in the jury. The fact that he is now free as a bird is not the fault of the American legal system, but our own. It was our government, established by those we voted into office that signed the treaty preventing US troops to be judged on our soil. It is our fault that we didn't care about the trial, making it a public debate theme and thus making the American authorities be more carefull about doing their job. Don't blame the Americans for knowing how to take care of their own better than we do.

On a final note, even if VanGoethem is legally innocent, i still consider him responsible for the accident. And rest assured, if i were given the option, i'd recall our troops from Afghanistan and Irak and also reconsider having American troops on Romania soil. It seems to me that for an ally, they're killing more of us than "our common enemy" terrorism.

C'mon, and you trully believe that there were no other evidences that Teo was in the taxi or not? How about blood? Surely, he MUST have left some blood in that taxi...

How about the police report?

So without the driver, the prosecutors were unable to determine if Teo was there or not?!?! This is a bad joke...

And i know, the taxi driver refused to go to the states to testify, although he was alegedly ofered to have the ticked paied, a place to stay, and an every-day meal... plus 40$ a day, for his "trouble". You do realise that a taxi driver does not make 40$ a day... So, realisticly speaking, why didn't he go?

About the part that we DO deserve to be treated like this (and i apologise. I hope you DO NOT understand that i believe Teo deserved to die) - i agree... i have already said this before...

The problem is that, in spite of us being so "non-cooperative" they still had more than enough evidence to make an "objective" judgement. More concrete evidence than any testemony. The blood samples, the protographs taken at the sceene of the crime, the blood sample from the US marine and so on...

[Sergiu EnD]

Have you ever heard of citation? People don't just come into court and say,"wait, I have something to say". They need to be cited. Which of course has not hapeened in this case.

[Royal Assassin3]

Wow, you need to spend less time digging around anti-American propaganda sites.

You paint this as some sort of "Americans killing everyone in the world and getting away with it." When in fact, you are just describing how our justice system has become more and more leftist liberal these days.

Read about Judge Edward Cashman who gave just 60 days in prison to a man accused of raping a girl several times over 4 years when she was only 6. The judge apparently "didn't believe in punishment."

The problem with making the system tougher is that when you impose rigid sentancing guidelines you get cases of someone serving twenty years for stealing candy bars three times in a row.

That said some of your examples were judged fairly from the facts available. Soldiers are not held to the same standards of law as civilians, especially in combat situations. Military accidents are regrettable, but they are a part of war. You can't run an effective army if your soldiers are afraid to shoot someone for fear that they may hit a civilian.

[Lord Menchalior]

Justice System of U.S.A. is not perfect in anyway, but its heck of a lot better than Justice systems in China, North Korea or countries where Sharia is applied. I have nothing against Sharia, except its brutal punishments. At least if in american, you won't get your hand cutt off if you steal for hunger. Nor it allows fathers to kill daughters, that have dishonoured them somehow. Nor rape victom is dire jeaporady to get stoned because of immoral act she conducted when she was raped.

Luckily sharia has been applied only in few countries in world. And not all muslims are zealotic war mongers. So I know few justice systems that are a lot worse than U.S.A.'s. Its justice system is not more corrupted than anyother western country in world or non-sharia muslim country's. U.S. justice has just media focus over rest worlds justice systems now and because of that, it may seem more corrupted, even its not nearly as corrupted as XelNaga says, with all due respect.

JMHO.

[dragula4]

Originally Posted by XelNaga UA:

You do not have any second thought in invading a country, for presumed reasons (and there is STILL no shread of evidence that Iraq had WMD), yet the same system that preahes "pre-emtive" strikes fids it OK to release a murderer, on the grounds that there are no sufficiend evidences that the one who was killed was at the spot of the crime! In-friggin-credible!!!

if you did not notice (which you probably didn't, since all you read is anti-american rhetoric), there was a large debate and criticism in the united states when the decision to invade iraq was brought to bear. students from university across the nation protested (and still protest today) the invasion of a soverign country without tangible evidence in support of the 'reasons of invasion.' so please do not speak for a country which you are not in, nor do you know anything about other than what you read on the internet.

secondly, the united states does not tolerate murder. please research our incarcuration rates for the crimes of manslaughter and murder (all degrees) before you speak.

*note* - i did not, nor do i do now, support the invasion of iraq. i do, though, support the troops that are on the ground, putting their lives on the line everyday. i hope they come home very, very soon.

[Ghaad]

Quote:

Wow, you need to spend less time digging around anti-American propaganda sites.

Most of us are Romanians and i guess we feel offended/frustrated by what happened...i don't know, but i guess xelnaga wrote about cases in other countries just to show this wasn't a singular act, but a policy of the US military.

Quote:

That said some of your examples were judged fairly from the facts available. Soldiers are not held to the same standards of law as civilians, especially in combat situations. Military accidents are regrettable, but they are a part of war. You can't run an effective army if your soldiers are afraid to shoot someone for fear that they may hit a civilian.

I really don't think that Bucharest (Romania's capital) or Mihail Kogalniceanu (Romanian military base, used by US troops) are war zones. Really, i don't.

[Bernel]

Originally Posted by dragula4:

if you did not notice (which you probably didn't, since all you read is anti-american rhetoric), there was a large debate and criticism in the united states when the decision to invade iraq was brought to bear.

Nevertheless, polls around the times of the invasion showed overwhelming support for it. It's only when the number of soldiers sent home in bodybags started to increase support has started to drop. (Just as in Vietnam)

Quote:

secondly, the united states does not tolerate murder. please research our incarcuration rates for the crimes of manslaughter and murder (all degrees) before you speak.

USA does not tolerate the murder of Americans. When it comes to what US soldiers do abroad it is a lot more tolerant. My Lai massacre, a few days house arrest for one person. Shoot down a passanger plane, get a medal, torture a man to death, lose $6000 in salary. Just to take a few examples.

[lottt]

Originally Posted by XelNaga UA:

- I do not agree, as you should have probably understood reading my post. I actualy said i hoped the people responsable for this would have been brought to justice. And i still hope.

What is the diffrece between the actions of those US Marines did from the actions made by islamic fanatical fundamentalists all over the world? Is there any diffrence between a guy who blows up 100, or 10.000 people and one that kills a child? Would you kill a child to save 1000 americans? How about 10 children? May them be romanian, iraqi or americans? I don't think you would, nor 1, nor 10.

Bottom line, all of those are murderers, criminals.

And yes, i said that i hope you, ALL americans, get what you deserve. For electing and endorsing Bush administration, i hope you will get what you deserve. For the moment, the Bush administration does not deserve "good" things, do they? If you are so repulsed by those actions, and you do not agree with them, than by all means, DO something about it! If you cannot, than this are simply the consequences of your actions.

If your elected gouverment make you deserve good things, than by all means, you should receive them.

Don't think i am ignorant. The romanians got what they deserved. They got people killed on their streets, by foreign soldiers in missions on their territory, and they don't get to say nothing concerning the trial / conviction of those murderers. They got what they deserved because of the treaties signed by to US and Romanian gouverment, that forbids the Romanian authorities to make any judgement on any US official. This country, and most of it's people sicken me. They have no spine, as they did not through most of their "proud" 2200 year - old history.

Do the innocent children, men and wemen of Iraq deserve to die, live in misery, in terror or fear? They probably don't, but this is a consequence of their support for Saddam.

Did the innocent germans deserve to die in bomb raids, live in misery and indignity during and after the Second World War? They probably did not, but this was a consequence of their support for Hitler.

I think you are begining to get the picture. Those question i presented above... I do not believe in them, i don't think the iraqi people deserve to die for one man, or a group of men's actions. Nor did the germans. Nor do the americans. But life is not fair, and all the times, many inocent people will pay for other's mistakes.

Weird how life most eloquently shows one simple rule. For every action, there is a reaction...

Now, everything i've said above is just for the purpose of demonstrating that many of the people that have bad intentions against you, are created by you. I have stated this in other topics too...

Peace!

Why do you automatically presume that every American voted for the presient in power? Why? I obviously don't know the answer, you must. So please explain your reasoning here.

I did not vote for George Bush, nearly 50% of America did not vote for George Bush, so the 50% of America that didn't vote for him still gets blamed for what happens in some crappy country like Romania? No, it doesn't work like that. Yes, we will get what we deserve. We will get freedom, democracy, free education. This is only three things that we deserve, I could name countless more. Can you say the same thing about your country? Can you honestly say this is what you expect to get from the Romanian government? Please. However, if you can say this, it is because of America. I do believe if it wasn't for America fighting against socialists for 40+ years, Romania would still be an Eastern Block country. Now, please, go on blaming America for all your problems. Better yet, I would love to see the day that we pull all of our troops out of your country. See how you fare then. How about we stop trading with you, sending aid to you, protecting you? I'd love to see how long your "peace" lasts.

That's right, say what you want about America, I really dont' care. We give the most aid worldwide than every other country combined. So, basically, shut up.

[Samurai Pooh]

And this is why we need an international criminal court. Too bad the American government is scared of anything multi-lateral.

[Lord Menchalior]

Originally Posted by Condemned:

And this is why we need an international criminal court. Too bad the American government is scared of anything multi-lateral.

Aren't we all? Nobody wants other to do condemning their own citizens... U.S.A. has actually power to prevent that... But still, I am sure no country's government is willing to have international criminal court that is likely to condemn its citizens with different sentences than their own country has.

Idea is good but its very hard to make real...

[Samurai Pooh]

Quote:

Aren't we all? Nobody wants other to do condemning their own citizens... U.S.A. has actually power to prevent that... But still, I am sure no country's government is willing to have international criminal court that is likely to condemn its citizens with different sentences than their own country has.

Idea is good but its very hard to make real...

Wrong.

Quote:

As of 14 November 2005, 100 countries are States Parties to the Rome Statute of the International Criminal Court. Out of them 27 are African States, 12 are Asian States, 15 are from Eastern Europe, 21 are from Latin America and the Caribbean, and 25 are from Western Europe and other States.

http://www.icc-cpi.int/asp/statesparties.html

So no, not all of us are panzies like the American government when it comes to multi-lateralism. Some actually endorse it! amazing!