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-   -   Do you believe in God? (https://forums.utopiatemple.com/showthread.php?t=18887)

chilo 02-Jan-2003 06:54

First of all, it's murder that's wrong, when killing is done in battle or similar instances it's not.
Secondly, God doesn't do anything about evil because He's given us free will, and let's us excercise it.

Rabbousamai 02-Jan-2003 07:47

Does anybody really think that there is enough evidence to support the existance of god? So far my count is that there is a book of dubious origin...the rest is faith, and a lack of alternatives.

Rabbousamai 02-Jan-2003 07:50

Quote:

First off you are making the assumption that because there are no APPARENT consequences for sin (wrongness or evil) then God doesn't exist. This is a wrong assumption. In reference to A B C D, All are true with D having a less obvious answer.
By doing something about evil, i do not refer to punishing the evil guy (which is dubious as it is), but protecting the victim.

Just Someone 02-Jan-2003 08:32

it's obvious
 
Quote:

(Originally posted by shadeslinger)


A) God exists
B) God does not want wrongness/evil
C) God is all powerful and all knowing, hence knows about evil and can do something about it, and all good, hence wants to do something about it.
D) God doesn't do much about it.
Clearly, A,B,C and D cannot all be true. Which one is not?

A is not true! :D

Makale 02-Jan-2003 09:05

*believes in many Gods (and Goddesses too)*
yay Polytheism! :cool

frezzy 02-Jan-2003 10:03

It's facinating how you people can get so interested in talking about

spirit beings and God, but when people provide you with the answer, You

stick up your nose and mock in dis-believe. What do you know about the

bible? A book about Abraham, the parting of Red Sea, King David, all

fairie tales stories to you? and King Cesar was mention because the

book is written during his reign? Scriptures which exist even till now

were carbon-dated to be hundred of years before the Birth of Christ,

Was there to tell of the Coming of the Messiah... Or do you want to

correct me, saying they were all made up? Dates were dated 'B.C' for a

reason. If you ever study about the Bible, you will know that it is

more than a book of tales. It is a book of history and prophesy. Events

were proven to have existed, lost ruins of cities were found, they all

tally with the supposed 'made-up stories' in the Bible. King

Nebucharnezzar, the Babylon Empire, Medes, Persians... All found in a

book call the Bible... And to think that each empire are around 80

years span... How can this book be a book of lies when there's so much

truth? And I'm only talking about the Old Testiment. Not even the new.

Made up? People challenged the Bible, but that's ok. It's just a

disappointment to watch the fools, with the answers proven, spoken and

shared, still unwilling to take the truth in their hand, and walk the

walk God planned for them. There's alot to tell. What matters is that

who are willing to accept it.

God is looking.

Shadowkit 02-Jan-2003 10:18

Quote:

God is looking.
That pervert, nothing better then a peeping Tom :D (sorry I couldn't resist)

Just because the bible contains true events, it doesn't mean everything is true. Look at the movie Pearl Habor. The event was real, but the story is cleary made up.

Little Kid Izzy 02-Jan-2003 10:24

Quote:

(Originally posted by frezzy)

It's facinating how you people can get so interested in talking about

spirit beings and God, but when people provide you with the answer, You

stick up your nose and mock in dis-believe. What do you know about the

bible? A book about Abraham, the parting of Red Sea, King David, all

fairie tales stories to you? and King Cesar was mention because the

book is written during his reign? Scriptures which exist even till now

were carbon-dated to be hundred of years before the Birth of Christ,

Was there to tell of the Coming of the Messiah... Or do you want to

correct me, saying they were all made up? Dates were dated 'B.C' for a

reason. If you ever study about the Bible, you will know that it is

more than a book of tales. It is a book of history and prophesy. Events

were proven to have existed, lost ruins of cities were found, they all

tally with the supposed 'made-up stories' in the Bible. King

Nebucharnezzar, the Babylon Empire, Medes, Persians... All found in a

book call the Bible... And to think that each empire are around 80

years span... How can this book be a book of lies when there's so much

truth? And I'm only talking about the Old Testiment. Not even the new.

Made up? People challenged the Bible, but that's ok. It's just a

disappointment to watch the fools, with the answers proven, spoken and

shared, still unwilling to take the truth in their hand, and walk the

walk God planned for them. There's alot to tell. What matters is that

who are willing to accept it.

God is looking.
1.I know that it meets the criteria for a fiction book.
2.Can you actually prove the parting of the red seas? I don't know much about King david.
3.Carbon Dating is not as concrete as once thought, there are other better methods.
4.They are B.C. because religious people set the standard for the ages. You have to understand, not everyone is christian.
5.Easy, it is called allusions. You use real events in a fanasy form.
6.Excuse me, who are you calling fools? I could easily call you a fool for blindly believing a book.
7.Why should I accept what you consider the truth, which by the way, has no real facts towards it, and walk the path that a being created, this being the most conterversial of all?

Basically, your one of those fanatics that considers atheist from the pits of hell. It's okay, I enjoy watching brainwashed foolsl ike yourself.

AznBlade 02-Jan-2003 18:56

Quote:

Well, what if i murder him? That is surely evil...even the bible says so!
Yet, I doubt it is if in self defense or to save another.
Quote:

(Originally posted by shadeslinger)
Nobody has yet addressed the issue that god is not all powerful, knowing, and good.
1) IF god exists, AND the commandments in the bible represent goodness, AND God has broken his own commandments, THEN there are three possible conclusions:
---> God doesnt exist.
---> The comandments are inaccurate.
---> God hasnt broken his own commandments
Either God has killed people, or the bible is inaccurate...im happy with either explanation. Can anyone find a hole in that argument?
It may be negated by saying that What is right and wrong is described by god, i.e. murder is right if god condones it. Obviously however, this falls into the hole of the 'arbitary morality' thing.
Well... what exactly are you classifying as right and wrong?

The bible IS flawed. There have been many retranslations, and revisions over the centuries. Some of the earlier copies of the Torah (Early Old Testament) state more along the lines of "don't murder in cold blood". I don't remember exactly what it said because I read it at a museum a few years ago.

Besides... I don't really have much a belief in the literallity of the old testament.
Quote:

Another thing...ALL POWERFUL. That doesnt leave much room for interpretation. ALL KNOWING. That doesn't either. ALL GOOD....well, that has some problems. lets look at the commandments. If they are a basis for doing what is right (and any christain will tell you that they are), then clearly breaking them is wrong. Time for another logic exercise...

1) The commandments more or less represent 'good'
2) The commandments are frequently broken.
3) Breaking the commandments is wrong
Therefore (1,2,3) Wrongness exists.
A) God exists
B) God does not want wrongness/evil
C) God is all powerful and all knowing, hence knows about evil and can do something about it, and all good, hence wants to do something about it.
D) God doesn't do much about it.
Clearly, A,B,C and D cannot all be true. Which one is not?

First off you are making the assumption that because there are no APPARENT consequences for sin (wrongness or evil) then God doesn't exist. This is a wrong assumption. In reference to A B C D, All are true with D having a less obvious answer.
People generally attribute their own definition of good to God. The bible states in Matthew 19 that only God is good. Well people then take that and apply the term to God using their definition of good. The fact is God is so far beyond us we will never fully comprehend His full nature....a finite being (us) cannot comprehend an infinite being (God) in totality.
The fact is God will do something about wrongness, evil and sin. At some point according to the bible God will return and the Earth will be restored and all evil and sin will be eliminated. At that point all peoples past and present will be judged accordingly. We have the choice to follow His plan or go on our own....He will not force us to worship or follow Him but rather allows us to make the choice of our own volition. Think about it, would you rather force someone to follow you or have a group of individuals follow you willingly....

It is correct that nothing can be proven to a 100% certainty but again when you look at overwhelming evidence and facts some things are far more likely than others...
Very convincing arguement, but again the commandents may have been flawed over the retranslations and revisions. There used to be a contraversey over which set of commandments were right.
Which Ten Commandments?
You can't exactly say which represent what, or even if it represents anything.
Yes, the "commandments" are frequently broken and there is wrong in the world... but does that necessarily mean there's evil? There's a difference between being wrong and being evil.

shadeslinger 03-Jan-2003 00:05

You say the bible is flawed. I have yet to see anyone post anything specific from the bible that is "flawed". There are absolutely no flaws or errors in the bible that could possibly lead to the conclusion that: 1) God does not exist
2)Bible teachings are false.
I find it all so very interesting that people "seemingly" find "flaws" or "Contradictions" in the bible and instead of trying to study further to test their hypothesis, arbitrarily dismiss the entire work based on a few shallowly researched self declared flaws.

AznBlade 03-Jan-2003 00:50

Quote:

(Originally posted by shadeslinger)
You say the bible is flawed. I have yet to see anyone post anything specific from the bible that is "flawed". There are absolutely no flaws or errors in the bible that could possibly lead to the conclusion that: 1) God does not exist
2)Bible teachings are false.
I find it all so very interesting that people "seemingly" find "flaws" or "Contradictions" in the bible and instead of trying to study further to test their hypothesis, arbitrarily dismiss the entire work based on a few shallowly researched self declared flaws.
Here's a few points why I believe the bible is flawed and that it isn't 100% literal.
a) There are many versions that stem from different publications, translations, revisions, etc. There are differences between Jewish and Christian commandments, yet the texts both stem from are from the same stories of Moses. Another example is in the previous disputes in the debate over the different commandments.

Those versions tend to differ in places and sometimes contradict eachother.

b) Depending on how you view the bible, there are contradictions. Cygnus-Study: Contradictions in the Bible as well as differences in what should be the same account of a story and quotes.

c) I've posted this all before, so why don't you get off your high horse and try to read them, instead of trying to dismiss my claims and trying to discredit me for the reason that you were too lazy to read my previous posts. There have been countless discussions on this topic where I have presented evidence over and over again. Research a topic and read it.

d) Depending on your interetation of the bible, there are contradictions in the bible against proven science. Some examples are the whole evolution of man, dating techniques, etc.

Rabbousamai 03-Jan-2003 01:55

i guess constant rain for forty days and the magical appearance of several trillion litres of water, 9 foot tall warriors without spinal problems and nine hundred year old men are all fairly common...

shadeslinger 03-Jan-2003 01:58

Aznblade:

I have read some of those examples you have posted (used the link you have provided) and I did post a response to at least one of those examples. All of the examples I read can also be just as easily explained.
As to the proven science statement....evolution has never been proven that is why it is called the "Theory" of evolution not the Law of evolution as the Law of Gravity. There is no hard evidence for Macro-evolution (the change of one kind of animal into another) however I will go so far as to say there is Micro-evolution (bacteria becoming resistant to antibiotics for example).
I would like to say that I did not intend to come off as "being on a high horse" I'm just passionate about my beliefs as I am sure you are as well. I do enjoy the exchange of ideas. :b

Gen Maxxwell 03-Jan-2003 02:05

god is not real, he is just an item/person/whateva to cling onto in times of need, light in darkness, comfort in bad times, so on and so forth.

no such thing

Sesko 03-Jan-2003 02:12

penumbra knight ...... I have absolutely no proof at this moment in time that you are actually real ....... you are just words on a screen to me.

Although it is possible that I could one day prove to myself that you are real it is also possible that one day I might prove to myself that god is real.

As a light in my darkness, a god, however it might be described is more real than anything else.

Little Kid Izzy 03-Jan-2003 02:36

Why must people rely on the existance of a higher being to give validity to their lifes? Why must people believe that anything that gives them hope is related to god? Why can't people rely on their own inner strength instead of belieivng everything a book says?

Azure Dragon 03-Jan-2003 02:43

I want to ask something:

Is Atheism really a Sin?

In teh bible, one of the comandments was to not worship any other. Atheists dont worship any god, so is that really a sin in christian eyes?

shadowrunner 03-Jan-2003 03:05

I believe that the very reason we are here is divine, however, they only thing I can do about it is simply live my life for the benfit of man and at the same time have some fun...

Im not religous in any way and I do not blieve in some old bearded man sitting n a cloud

ZeroGenesis 03-Jan-2003 04:36

Quote:

(Originally posted by Muzzle)

I want to ask something:

Is Atheism really a Sin?

In teh bible, one of the comandments was to not worship any other. Atheists dont worship any god, so is that really a sin in christian eyes?

Muzzle, as to your question, there is a very good example in the bible to explain this:

Quote:

"He who is not with me is against me, and he who does not gather with me scatters. Therefore I tell you, every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven men, but the blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven. And whoever says a word against the Son of man will be forgiven; but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come." (Matthew 12 : 30-32)
Jesus asserts (v 30) that one must ally with him or be opposed to him and "through this" he tells us (v 31) that the blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven. Blaspheming the Spirit is thus a failure to repent and ally oneself with Jesus. Since this can always be done during one's life (cf. 20 : 1-15), blasphemy against the Holy Spirit must be a final refusal to repent, or final impenitence.


So that's what us "churchies" believe about atheists.., and also why some of us waste so much of our time trying to argue with you. :\

HlR0 03-Jan-2003 04:50

Quote:

I want to ask something:

Is Atheism really a Sin?

In teh bible, one of the comandments was to not worship any other. Atheists dont worship any god, so is that really a sin in christian eyes?
From what I've experienced, MOST - NOT ALL - Christian's choose what is right and wrong and make up their own rules.

However, Athiests are usually good people who just can't see how others believe that an invisible man lives in the clouds, decides what we can and cannot do, chose TEN rules, and sends you to Hell to be tortured for all eternity if you break these rules.

And, I also wonder about this: One of the commandments states: "Thou shalt not steal." Another states: "Thou shalt not kill." Killing is basically stealing someone's life. It is also called taking a life. This is another thing that is quite odd.


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