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-   -   A new religion... (https://forums.utopiatemple.com/showthread.php?t=78762)

Gotterdammerung 16-Dec-2011 01:38

It's like you go out of your way to misunderstand, VoR.

Am I really such a poor communicater?

Black Oranje 16-Dec-2011 23:31

you'll need one hell of a mental coach to motivate the stick or make it mindful.

Voice of Reason 17-Dec-2011 17:08

Quote:

Am I really such a poor communicater?
The problem is with the message, not the messenger. I am still waiting to hear how inert tools get transformed into external powers.

Gotterdammerung 19-Dec-2011 03:47

Re: A new religion...
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Voice of Reason (Post 1698905)
I am still waiting to hear how inert tools get transformed into external powers.

It's as simple as potential energy being transformed into kinetic energy.

All we need to do is examine how this is possible. I have found that the only difference is in the human desire to see one.

Voice of Reason 19-Dec-2011 13:38

This is another non-explanation. It is a stick. An inert stick. It has no potential energy or anything remotely like it. It has *nothing* until a human employs it as a tool, at which point it becomes an extension of the human.

Gotterdammerung 20-Dec-2011 00:09

Re: A new religion...
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Voice of Reason (Post 1698932)
This is another non-explanation.

Can you direct me to where I can learn proper explanation protocol?

Quote:

It is a stick. An inert stick. It has no potential energy or anything remotely like it. It has *nothing* until a human employs it as a tool, at which point it becomes an extension of the human.
Obviously the stick has *something*. We're not pulling rabbits out of hats.

Even a pure pragmaticist like yourself can see the necessity in being able measure potential (which comes from its autonomy -- where else?) in the world around you.

Voice of Reason 20-Dec-2011 09:28

You cannot measure potential any more than you can measure holiness, and for the same reason. They both exist only in the human mind. This stick has no potential of its own. It has potential to a human who uses it as a tool to extend his abilities.

Gotterdammerung 23-Dec-2011 01:29

Re: A new religion...
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Voice of Reason (Post 1698941)
You cannot measure potential any more than you can measure holiness, and for the same reason. They both exist only in the human mind. This stick has no potential of its own. It has potential to a human who uses it as a tool to extend his abilities.

O.K. so the stick doesn't have inherent potential;

But what I am getting at is that it has *something* which lends itself to potential.

What is the core thing here being manipulated in the human mind? It's the physicality of the stick. There's something within the realness of the stick that allows the human mind to use it as a tool. TThe stick has an outside reality of physicality. That's where power comes from. Not the mind, but physical reality.

Just as the stick in inert without a human mind, so too is the human mind inert without the stick.

Voice of Reason 23-Dec-2011 10:38

The stick has nothing. It just exists, full stop. Potential exists completely in the human mind. None of it exists in the stick. Take the human away and that stick will do absolutely nothing.

Take the stick away, and the human will get along just fine.

Gotterdammerung 23-Dec-2011 23:18

Re: A new religion...
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Voice of Reason (Post 1698978)
Take the stick away, and the human will get along just fine.

Why do you think that is?

Gotterdammerung 24-Dec-2011 00:26

i.e. Humans have personal power which is not diminished through lack of tools.

But can still be augmented through the use of tools?

That is not consistent. Getting along 'just fine' is not the same as grovelling cavemen lacking immense augmented power.

So which is it, are tools always essential augmentations, or are tools optional objects?

Finally, does the poverty of the former perspective diminish the autonomy of the individual as opposed to the latter? i.e. you HAVE to choose tools to be empowered vs. I am my own empowerment unconditionally.

Voice of Reason 24-Dec-2011 05:24

In the human-stick relationship, the human is the active component. The stick is totally passive, about as passive as it gets. Therefore, this conveniently un-defined 'personal power' you refer to - and the humans autonomy - is unaffected by the stick. It is neither increased nor reduced by the stick.

The stick is a tool. Full stop. It is a thing used by humans to extend their capabilities. Removing the stick will not affect the human because, being the active component, they will find an alternative solution.

Human A wants to join two pieces of wood, so he reaches for a nail gun. Take a way the nail gun and he will use a hammer. Take away the hammer and he will use a rock. Take away the rock and he will get a screw and screw driver. Take away the screw driver and he will make do with a knife blade. Take away the knife and he will get some glue. Take away the glue and he will fashion a dovetail joint, and so on.

Do you get the idea yet?

Gotterdammerung 24-Dec-2011 06:14

I get the idea.

But I disagree that humans are the only active component in the universe (sort of).

While it is technically correct (as a byproduct of consciousness), and does indeed have a practical basis, it assumes that the universe is otherwise inert and passive.

I am simply reluctant to elevate the human to that level by making that comparison. I don't think humans are that special and that this idea of having desire, creativity and autonomy as somehow distinguished from an otherwise passive, abstract world is nonsense.

It's just personal preference, I suppose, according to one's aims and values. It's an interchangable attitude to the world which I simply don't accept. I hope that makes sense.

[...]

I now read by you that "the humans autonomy - is unaffected by the stick. It is neither increased nor reduced by the stick".

I can accept that compromise. I won't push on further.

Voice of Reason 08-Jan-2012 15:23

Here is a religion I could get along with...

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-16424659


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