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Faith based arguments.
I thought I'd try to revive the religious forum with some classic debate.
What do you say to someone in a religious argument over the existence of higher power who is using faith as their argument? Isn't that just saying that you have no reason to believe in a higher power other than the fact that you want to? |
That's actually the best argument there is. The whole point of religion is faith. If you build a case for beleif based on scientific or whatver arguments then it's faith or religion anymore. It's just a scientific law or whatver
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Can you give me a better reason to believe when it comes to things like this? To me this seems like well for a lack of better world the only logical reason to beleive
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But I am open to ideas as I said. Can you give me a better reason then this? This is the only one that makes at least a little sense to me |
I'm probably a little biased since I'm an atheist, but faith does not belong in an argument - arguments are based on proof, logic and reasoning. Faith is the exact opposite of those three. Then again, with no proof of a higher power, it's not exactly like there can be any logical, rational argument for the existence of one - so faith-based reasonings are all that's left for a religious debate.
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Lack of proof does not equal proof of lack. People who believe in evolution wholeheartedly tend to use this argument too. Much like we can't completely prove God's existence to everyone scientifically*, we can't say much about where we came from otherwise either. Both sides have to take their stance purely based on faith.
*What I mean by that statement is that there are things around us in this universe (big bang, human and animal anatomy, ecosystems, etc.) that are proven scientifically. I believe that many branches of science are explorations into the way that God's creations work. However, such things sometimes are not enough to prove to some who just can't see the connection. Of course, this is my belief and you are welcome to yours. |
Is it really faith when people just believe whatever their parents tell them to believe?
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I got into this debate with my sister a short while ago. She is a devout christian and I am a firm atheist. And she used faith and the fact that good things happen in her life to show as the proof of god. (I believe in god, I do what he says to do, good things happen in my life, there for god must exist) I tried to point out to her that she was using correlation and trying to make it become causation, that it should have been two separate tracks (I believe in god, I do what he says to do) and (because Im an adult in a career, with a husband who is also in a career, and we have two kids, and a nice house other good things also come to me) She however because of her faith refused to see it that way and "knew" that it was gods influence in her life. When people of faith get into an argument over something like that usually their faith is so tied up into their life that any extrication of it is nearly impossible. As an argument they are not capable of it because it is ingrained in who they are and their entire world view. Its not just a "because I want to" its turned into a because I have no other way of seeing my world. |
These days I'm less inclined to start arguments about religion with religious people. There's simple no arguing with some of em.
A nice angle I sometimes use is the multitude of different religions around the world. Which one is right? How do you know that "your" God is the actual God out there? This often leads to pointing out that even Christianity is just a human guess at things: in the early days there were different sects of christianism, each with a different view on things and a different version of Christ's story. The 4 books of the new testament were selected from over 25 different scriptures. Some aspects of the Christian religion were impleented for not so religious reasons. but eventually there's always the argument that science can't explain all, there's always certain things science assumes, and the fact that I can't explain on the spot the full evidence, math or reasoning for stuff like quantum physics, big bang theory etcetera. From there on it gets more philosophical and vaguer and ultimately leads nowhere. One thing that never happens though is a believer saying: "you're right, it actually seems that there is no god!" |
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In regards to the correlation part of your post, it reminds of something I once read. Something like: The 99% of bad things that happen in the world are tests, the 1% of good things that happen to you is proof that a God exists. |
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"but faith does not belong in an argument - arguments are based on proof, logic and reasoning."
Yet you asserted that without using any proof, logic or reasoning. It may be that religion involves a leap of faith (although many dispute that, for example C S Lewis writes entertainingly that Christianity is perfectly rational). Why are arguments based on the belief that God is real and good irrational, but arguments based on the belief that it is wrong to harm others (for example) rational? Once you have the foundation of (for example) liberalism you can build systematically on that to make more complex arguments, but you still took that initial leap of faith to say that liberalism is good, just like you accuse religious people of doing. I think there is a space in public debate for religious beliefs, and I think it's quite wrong to give views less weighting (or their own forum!) simply because they stem from a belief in a supernatural being. |
I think everyone bases their arguments on faith. Its just that some people have their faith founded on religion, others base their faith on science and others still that base their faith on their own self-perceived wisdom.
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If there were over a 100 eyewitnesses to a murder that happened last week in broad daylight, would you believe them? By what standard would you believe them, faith? Wouldn't it be your faith in the credibility of more than a 100 complete strangers that led you to believe them.
What if the murder had happened 250 yrs ago, and there were over a hundred recorded accounts of that murder, would you believe that it occurred. So why is the faith of people who believe in the Bible, and all the accounts of the events within, any less valid than those who believe that Napoleon ever existed? |
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Simply put; with the factors I mentioned such a comment is ridiculous. No, you can't say that about any religion. You may want to look at current population numbers of said religions before making such a claim. If you consider that as of year 2000..... statistics show there were more Christians on the planet than any other religion. If you then consider that combined with Judaism, and Islamic believers. We are talking a majority of the entire planets population. Why would I include all three of those major religions as a single populous? Just ask a Christian, an Israelite(Jew), and a Muslim if they believe in the God of Abraham. All were founded on essentially the same group of writings. It was only less than 2000 yrs ago that the Christians broke off from Judaism based on their belief that the current events they had witnessed were indeed proof of a fulfillment of Old Testament prophecy. Then it was hundreds of years after that in which the Islamic believers were formed based on their belief that Muhammad was the latest prophet in a continuation of the base religion. To act as if those who believe in the God of the old testament are just the same as any piddly religion is a incredibly huge understatement. In actuality, they make up the majority of the entire planet. So, when I say that those who have faith that all those Biblical events that are recorded(for arguments sake just the Old Testament) should be counted as credible as those who say Napoleon existed is very fair indeed. |
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Your comments are indeed ridiculous Quote:
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