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Drizzt 05-Dec-2002 14:11

Christianity
 
How does everyone feel about christianity? Do you think it's reasonable or unreasonable? Do you have anything against christianity?

barnball 05-Dec-2002 18:54

it depends on what u mean by christianity....there are different sects, just as in islam....catholicism, protestants, mormons, and jehova's witnesses are the main ones that come to mind....and i do have problems with traditional christianity, it has become the same as the jewish leaders in the time of Jesus, if he were to come back today, they would probably try to excommunicate him or something. i am what u would call a christian, i believ Jesus is the messiah, he died and rose, all the basics, but the traditinalism is to much.....ppl need to remember Jesus was hardly traditional, he "violated" the rules of the sabbath by healing and helping ppl, he called the religious leaders of the day "whitewashed tombs" meaning they looked good on the outside, but the important part, the inside, was dead. so yes, i have a problem with traditional christianity.

Adrius 05-Dec-2002 19:04

The only thing christanity was ever good for was a societal basis for capitalism, we might have been overrun by Muslims and would have been severely behind in technology and cultural development if they had succeeded in invading Europe... Otherwise, Christainity is a blood religion, violent and it is the reason for many of the strifes in this world and in the past. A good portion of wars in the 1400's to the 1700's were between Protestants and Catholics... Most of the warfare before that was between Muslims and Christains, and the Mongols... And now we have the present-day where religion is an excuse to kill people...

aligraw 05-Dec-2002 21:19

Religion is plain stupid. I donīt have a problem with christianity or any other religion, I choose to ignore it. I do get a little sick when people start talking about God- allmighty and his buddy Jesus, at least when they try to convince me they are right. But then again I get just as bored when someone talks about Allah, any of the Hindu gods, shinto, whatever. Religion was perfectly understandable back when people looked up at the sun and considered it the mother of life... Turns out they were quite right...

HAL 9000 05-Dec-2002 23:16

The day that there are no more wars and life is peaceful is the day i'll devote my whole life to religion

ezek 05-Dec-2002 23:28

christianity has its flaws, but it is the religion i practice (im roman catholic)

all religions have flaws, and there are really none worse than the other, they are jut different.

like ive said before, religion is just humans taking a guess on which to follow, because we will never know, until one day god comes down and saves the ones who followed the proper religion, and punishes those who didnt. its all just a guess, but ya gotta believe in that guess, and that is faith.

DavidFF7 05-Dec-2002 23:33

I consider myself an atheist, mainly because I have seen no remote factual evidence of any existence of God.

And from a neutral standpoint, I am able to view each religion objectively (well, as much as is possible for a mere human to do), and I think all religions are equally brainwashing and idiotic. The one religion that is exempt from this is Buddhism, since it is for self betterment and not the sacrifice to God and devotion of your life to Him.
However, freedom of religion lets the people practice what they want, and think what they want, and as long as they are not trying to convert me or brainwash me, I have no problem with them practicing (I have a big problem with the Vatican interfering in politics though, but that is a different story).

But one day, I hope all the people will see that religion only causes tension, differences, and hostilities between differnent believers, and for it to be abolished once and for all.

AznBlade 06-Dec-2002 00:56

Quote:

Otherwise, Christainity is a blood religion, violent and it is the reason for many of the strifes in this world and in the past.
Tell me exactly where in Christianity it tells people to be destructive and war. Tell me exactly where it says to be violent.

Just because events happened in the past, doesn't mean the modern are the same. People don't blame modern Germany for hitler. The thing about religion is that it has been used as a tool mainly in politics. Remember the Spanish Inquisition? That was mainly an act for the goverment to gain more influence and power. The Crusades? An excuse for war. Christianity never invoked these things, it's just been twisted by people who represent it.
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Quote:

But one day, I hope all the people will see that religion only causes tension, differences, and hostilities between differnent believers, and for it to be abolished once and for all.
Why is it people only see the bad caused? It's like the US discussion. When the US does the slightest thing wrong, all Americans are evil. If a country in Europe does something wrong, people don't care or just find some way to blame the US for it.

Yes, Religion causes tension, differences, and hostilities, but so does about every other thing on Earth. Religions also cause unity, peace, love, etc. but those are overlooked and for what? "The greater good of the atheists".

And David, some forms of Buddhism believe Buddha to be a god.

Raptor Red 06-Dec-2002 01:15

To blame religion for tension, differences, and hostilities between differnent believers is just stupid. You neglect that it is not the religion that draws lines, its PEOPLE! People separate themsleves for everything. If you abolish religion, it will not stop fighting. It would just change the reason for fighting. Yes, there are some religious fanatics who do kill in the name of God, but that is their personality. People don't become extremists because they believe in a religion. You will find fanatics for everything. Environmental extremists for example would rather have humans die than to kill off a non-endangered animal in a specific area. I remind you that Soviet Russia was a violently atheist state. More people were killed by Stalin than any other mass murderer in recent history (Yes, even more than Hitler's 6 million jews), topping the scale at over 20 million dead. All in the name of communism and the state.

Iron Feliks 06-Dec-2002 01:51

Religion has no real point, its just a way of comforting yourselves during life so that you think what your doing is Gods word and that he is infallible. I think that the Bible, and the Koran, and all the other 'holy' texts should be taken for their morals, not their so-called 'truths'. If people just forgot religion and its institutions, and then they would just belive in right and wrong (and maybe a teeny-weeny bit of gray area) then we would all know wether we were deviating from our morals and stay good.

DavidFF7 06-Dec-2002 02:04

Quote:

(Originally posted by Raptor Red)
People don't become extremists because they believe in a religion.
Wrong. Without religion, people have less motives to be religious fanatics (in fact, none really that I can think of).

Quote:

Originally posted by AznBlade
And David, some forms of Buddhism believe Buddha to be a god.
True. I disrregard those forms. I am not a Buddhist anyway, I am an atheist :) I am just saying Buddhism is about the only religion that I know that doesn't tell believers to think that their religion is 'right' and others are infidels (Islam), or nonbelievers will go to hell for their sins (Christianity), etc. these religions state that it is bad not to be a part of them. Buddhism doesn't condemn you to eternal damnation for being an atheist.

And Azn, the reason I concentrate on the negative effects of religion is the same reason one would concentrate on the negative effects of any force: to see what effect it is having on the world. We are not here to discuss the positives, since the general concensus is that everyone agrees on those, and they are not up for debate. The negatives are up for debate, that is why I post them (here, in the US thread, and in any thread for that matter), because those are the issues that are disagreed on, not the positive ones.

barnball 06-Dec-2002 02:12

actually, there are several other reasons to become fanatical, some already listed. ELF and ALF are both fanatical environmental groups. nationalist or separatist groups also come to mind. political ideals can inspire fanatics. ppl become fanatical for several reasons besides religion, and even most "religeous" fanatics are truly in it for power, not thier god(s), or at least the leaders are in many cases

AznBlade 06-Dec-2002 03:30

Quote:

Wrong. Without religion, people have less motives to be religious fanatics (in fact, none really that I can think of).
OK, then they'll become enviromentalist/rights/workers/political fanatics. Should we get rid of those as well?
Quote:

True. I disrregard those forms. I am not a Buddhist anyway, I am an atheist I am just saying Buddhism is about the only religion that I know that doesn't tell believers to think that their religion is 'right' and others are infidels (Islam), or nonbelievers will go to hell for their sins (Christianity), etc. these religions state that it is bad not to be a part of them. Buddhism doesn't condemn you to eternal damnation for being an atheist.
I think you may be grossly misinformed about the central principals.
a) Islam teaches tolerance of all religions. Try reading the Koran/Noble Qu'ran sometime.
b) Not all Christians believe nonbelievers go to hell for not believing. The religion as a whole does not preach that.

DavidFF7 06-Dec-2002 03:39

AznBlade, the mentality of the majority of the worshippers in those religions do believe that, even if it is not quoted in the Bible. (And yes I have read portions of the Qu'uran and am completely surprised at how some believers interpret certain passages, if you take it all literally there is nothing at all wrong with the religion). After all, the Muslims did defend the Jews against the European Christian Crusaders.

Quote:

(Originally posted by AznBlade)

OK, then they'll become enviromentalist/rights/workers/political fanatics. Should we get rid of those as well?
At least those people have a stated legitimate goal, and are (generally, but not always) for a good cause.
Enviromentalists use dirty tactics, yes, but they are for saving the environment, and the only problem they have is with people who pollute it.

Religious fanatics have no real defined goal other than to either wipe out the other guys, or convert them to your religion. They think all other religions are wrong, and those who don't believe in their religion should suffer. This is all very illogical to me, unlike environmentalists or labor unions, because I can see where they are coming from, which concrete problems they have in the world, and why they are doing what they are doing. Whereas, the religious fanatics, I cannot understand at all beside the fact that they want all nonbelievers to die or convert (and I find it hard to believe that a fellow human being can think this way, but I hate to say it's true).

KeeperOfHell 06-Dec-2002 04:12

What all of the advocates of religion choose to ignore is that man created religion. Religion is not something that has always been around- by its very nature, it requires people to practice it to gain existance. If people "pervert" or "twist" that religion, they're simply using a manmade concept for their own ends. It's not like religion is somehow neutral- all religions are permeated with the beliefs and customs of those who first practiced it. If someone uses that religion as a reason to start a war or to commit morally reprehensible acts, don't automatically assume that it is the human failings of the person which resulted in the religion being used to evil ends- it may be the nature of those who created it to commit it that is being manifest. If that is so, then it is also the nature of the religion.
I really don't think I'm making myself at all clear, so I'll move on to my other point. If something is used time and time again to further unjust and immoral ends, even if that something seems, to all outward appearances, to be a neutral or even benevolent concept or force, it is somewhat obtuse to continuously blame only those that use the something to further their own ends rather than considering that the something itself may be flawed. An easy example is Communism. Many say it would work if people who had the best intentions of their people at heart were appointed to make it work. To this, conservatives usually counter that since it hasn't worked yet, there's no reason to believe it will in the future. If this argument has any merit, then it applies equally well to religion. Bad results have been observed as a result of it time and time again (re: inquisitions, witch trials, holy wars, abuse of the power it grants people to gain wealth and/or political advantages, etc.) and (to the view of some outside observers, at least) few good things have come out of it. Conclusion: it probably is not going to work. It's not likely that it was just some freak coincidence that a bunch of megalomaniacs and lunatics have found their way to major religions over the years and caused religion to be given a bad name- it's far more likely that, in general, most religions are flawed and in many cases are a danger to the world.

DavidFF7 06-Dec-2002 04:21

Beautiful argument KeeperOfHell!

I am sure that would be heresy and you would be killed if it were the Spanish inquisition :P

As someone said in a quote earlier:

"God did not create man, man created God."

KeeperOfHell 06-Dec-2002 04:29

Quote:

(Originally posted by DavidFF7)

"God did not create man, man created God."
And thus was my cumbersome and muddled paragraph summarized in a single line. :)

AznBlade 06-Dec-2002 04:36

Does anyone fail to realize how people who hate religions force their own opinions upon others, which is what they're trying to prevent?

Anyways, the Spanish inquisition was a tool to gain more power and influnece. I can expound more if you'd like, or you can go read The Pit and the Pendulum by Poe...

DavidFF7 06-Dec-2002 08:32

I would be grateful if you expanded on your topic.

Drizzt 06-Dec-2002 08:49

Quote:

(Originally posted by Tassadar IV)
Christainity is a blood religion, violent and it is the reason for many of the strifes in this world and in the past.
christianity is a religion that stresses peace among the people. some of the more famous prinicples of christianity is "love your enemy". i believe that the crusades were stupid. religion is NOT an excuse to go around killing people. if you're christian, the last thing you should do is kill someone. what is christianity today?

you think that god didn't create humans, but humans created god. maybe ur right, but i believe that the big bang didn't result to humans, rather humans came up with the big bang.


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