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Armitage 11-Feb-2008 22:55

Make Me A Muslim
 
Make Me A Muslim [Ep 1 | Part 1 of 5]


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LNB6mAF1tO4


Make Me A Muslim [Ep 2 | Part 1 of 5]


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LdkJICH-i7A


Make Me A Muslim [Ep3 | Part 1 of 5]


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ot2rPGhZInc


Description from Channel 4:
Quote:

Can Islam help repair the moral fabric of British society? To test it out, Imam Ajmal Masroor asks six non-Muslims and one lapsed Muslim to follow Islamic teachings for three weeks. The six come from Harrogate, in Yorkshire, a town with very few ethnic minority inhabitants.

How will the six volunteers cope with living according to the laws of the Qur'an?
This is documention/experiment quite interesting. Hope you'll all watch it.

Caelis666 11-Feb-2008 23:09

Re: Make Me A Muslim
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Armitage (Post 1626679)
This is documention/experiment quite interesting. Hope you'll all watch it.

Seriously? Do you like seeing your faith prosituted like a cheap MTV rip-off?

Armitage 11-Feb-2008 23:28

Watch it first of all, then tell me if it was a MTV rip-off ok? :)

peace

Lord Menchalior 17-Feb-2008 22:58

Changing religion wouldn't repair problem of british society. It would just change problems to other's. Religion itself cannot repair a thing. But peoples have to do themselves.

Currently I cannot see Christianity or Islam answer to any problem. Answer is your faith God alone and not organized religion, which has long ago gone into woods.

Armitage 17-Feb-2008 23:20

Re: Make Me A Muslim
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Lord Menchalior (Post 1627571)
Changing religion wouldn't repair problem of british society. It would just change problems to other's. Religion itself cannot repair a thing. But peoples have to do themselves.

Currently I cannot see Christianity or Islam answer to any problem. Answer is your faith God alone and not organized religion, which has long ago gone into woods.

Some participants have seen positive changes from this even though this experiment was only for 3 weeks which isnt alot time to master problems. I suggest you watch the whole documentary and then ask yourself, if those people changed in any significant way.

peace

Lord Menchalior 18-Feb-2008 01:21

it does make good point but still Islam would not be viable solution, since british culture is not based on Islam. Redefining entire culture would take tremendous effort and extremist islamistic don't actually give good impression of Islam in the west at the moment.

One problem for muslim community in Britain is, that its very closed. They isolate in muslim communities and do not integrate that well in British society. This results has been seen in France during last Paris riots. Because society is closed and they have their own community with own rules and cultures, peoples especially young peoples feel themselves very alien in outside their community. This is what radical speakers are taking advantage. They grow the fear what lives in hearts of young peoples.

One step for change is not to isolate one self but be interactive with others. Peoples fear what they do not know. This would prevent radicalisation and would be beneficial to all.

Communities of your own peoples is safe haven in new country but it also prevents integration with society leading into conflict. So its a double edged sword.

Religion itself is not good or bad. The peoples using it make it good or bad.

demi 18-Feb-2008 01:37

I haven't watch the videos but I wonder if there's positive change, is it because of following muslim rules or just following a written set of moral laws. I mean if muslim did help I'm sure that judaism or budism would have helped too

Syke 18-Feb-2008 04:24

Re: Make Me A Muslim
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by demi (Post 1627586)
I haven't watch the videos but I wonder if there's positive change, is it because of following muslim rules or just following a written set of moral laws. I mean if muslim did help I'm sure that judaism or budism would have helped too

Precisely. The fact that this was the Muslim religion is inconsequential. If you had chosen any moral code and enforced it on them for three weeks you would have seen that same dedication of purpose. It gives structure, order and a false sense of meaning and purpose to these people's lives. It's a distraction and diversion from the issues and emptiness plaguing them, and rather than deal with them they're pursuing smoke and mirrors.

Armitage 18-Feb-2008 14:13

Perhaps any other belief system would have done the job in the short-term. However, you see i think - as muslim - that any other belief system would in long-term bring other issues which would replace the problems. For example, the problem with binge drinking, Islam is the only religion that has such an strict ruling against it, other religions or lifestyles wouldnt solve the problem sufficiently. But thats my biased view.

But leaving that point alone, when i said - the participants have seen positive effects - im taking this from their remarks. It suggests some of them were accepting and acknowledging the inner meaning of the islamic moral code, like the women who acknowledged and accepted the meaning of the headscarf. And thats what counts i think. The argument that any other moral code would have done it, i must reject this statement since, for example, the rigid structuring and lifestyle of a slave or military organisation, althought many westerners might equal Islam with such organisations, is probably not able to generate this kind of satisfaction, meaning and acceptance within the participants. Again my baised view.

Syke: To the argument that Islam doesnt takles the problems or gives false meaning as you mean, i have to say this. If you want to clean something you'll ineviatably going to soil yourself (not literally taken). Islam enforces the good and hinders the evil from spreading from its roots, that eventually the good gives the evil no place to be. That without infecting itself with the evil, thus remaining pure.

Who hasnt yet, please watch the docu before arguing here, thanks.

peace

Bernel 18-Feb-2008 21:22

Re: Make Me A Muslim
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Armitage (Post 1627677)
Islam enforces the good and hinders the evil from spreading from its roots, that eventually the good gives the evil no place to be. That without infecting itself with the evil, thus remaining pure.

Then you would expect that in strictly Islamic countries there would be no or at least little evil, right? "Evil" is a slippery concept, but when I look at the world I just don't see that, it seems to me as if Islamic countries tend to have a lot more problems than we have in the West.

Armitage 18-Feb-2008 22:00

Re: Make Me A Muslim
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Bernel (Post 1627740)
Then you would expect that in strictly Islamic countries there would be no or at least little evil, right? "Evil" is a slippery concept, but when I look at the world I just don't see that, it seems to me as if Islamic countries tend to have a lot more problems than we have in the West.

Well, muslims have the concept of halal (lawful) and haram (forbidden) which is more appropriate.

Unfortunatly, atm i dont see any 'islamic' country in the surface of earth. Mekkah and Medina are probably the most authentic islamic places left. The muslim world is yet recovering from colonialism, the colonialism where the western rulers dismantled the islamic law and closed the islamic schools as their first decree. You see, alot of Islamic thought was lost then. We Muslims are undergoing the task of reconnecting to our roots which is happening atm, the dynamic in the muslim word is quite thrilling. Unfortunatly the West sees exactly that as a threat :(
Well, Islam will eventually have its revival dispite western meddling, so God Will.

peace

Syke 19-Feb-2008 00:10

Re: Make Me A Muslim
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Armitage (Post 1627751)
Well, muslims have the concept of halal (lawful) and haram (forbidden) which is more appropriate.

Unfortunatly, atm i dont see any 'islamic' country in the surface of earth. Mekkah and Medina are probably the most authentic islamic places left. The muslim world is yet recovering from colonialism, the colonialism where the western rulers dismantled the islamic law and closed the islamic schools as their first decree. You see, alot of Islamic thought was lost then. We Muslims are undergoing the task of reconnecting to our roots which is happening atm, the dynamic in the muslim word is quite thrilling. Unfortunatly the West sees exactly that as a threat :(
Well, Islam will eventually have its revival dispite western meddling, so God Will.

peace

If you asked adherents of the Christian faith, they would inform you undoubtedly that Christianity when practiced in its pure form is perfect as well. Buddhism, when practiced correctly, would lead to a perfect world. In fact, the entire point of any purportedly universal moral code is that theoretically if followed absolutely by everyone it will lead to perfection on earth.

So by default you have to believe that Islam leads to perfection. The facts of life contradict this, obviously, so you find refuge in rationalizations. Any religion can do this, and all organized religions do so. You and Islam are not unique, and my point still stands regarding the inconsequential nature of this documentary utilizing Islam as its ethical code of choice.

Armitage 19-Feb-2008 00:58

Re: Make Me A Muslim
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Syke (Post 1627772)
If you asked adherents of the Christian faith, they would inform you undoubtedly that Christianity when practiced in its pure form is perfect as well. Buddhism, when practiced correctly, would lead to a perfect world. In fact, the entire point of any purportedly universal moral code is that theoretically if followed absolutely by everyone it will lead to perfection on earth.

So by default you have to believe that Islam leads to perfection. The facts of life contradict this, obviously, so you find refuge in rationalizations. Any religion can do this, and all organized religions do so. You and Islam are not unique, and my point still stands regarding the inconsequential nature of this documentary utilizing Islam as its ethical code of choice.

The pure form of Christianity is what? The pure form of Judaism is what? The probably pure form of Buddism is what? Can you answer me these questions? A tip, you will find the answer below somewhere in my post.

Islam's Message is unchanged since 1400 years, thats where my certainity for Islam comes from. If you want to find God, go the path He has outlined in His Book. Thats the only way, the Straight Path, the 'Sirat al-Mustaqim'. Following Islam means to be as close to God as a human can be. This is how I see the things. :)

"Say: 'come let me recite to you what your Lord Has forbade for you:
that you should not set-up anything with Him.
And be kind to your parents;
and do not kill your unborn children for fear of poverty, We provide for you and for them;
and do not come near evil, what is openly of it, or secretly;
and do not kill the soul which GOD Has forbidden, except in justice. That is what He enjoined you that you may comprehend'.
'And do not come near the money of the orphan, except for what is best, until he reached his maturity;
and give honestly full measure and weight equitably. We do not burden a soul except by what it can bear.
And if you speak then be just even if against a relative;
and with pledges made to GOD you shall observe. This He Has enjoined you that you may remember'.
And this is *My path, a Straight One, so you shall follow it, and do not follow the other paths lest they divert you from His path. That is what He has enjoined you to that you may be righteous." (6:151-153)


Do you find anything in these verses which are immoral? If you follow these commandments would you describe the person as a rightous person?

peace

demi 19-Feb-2008 03:07

Quote:

16 Honor your father and your mother, as the Lord your God commanded you, so that your days may be long and that it may go well with you in the land that the Lord your God is giving you.

17 You shall not murder.

18 Neither shall you commit adultery.

19 Neither shall you steal.

20 Neither shall you bear false witness against your neighbour.

21 Neither shall you covet your neighbour’s wife. Neither shall you desire your neighbour’s house, or field, or male or female slave, or ox, or donkey, or anything that belongs to your neighbour.
doesn't that seem moral to you? the point is, al religion are moral people just don't follow them or don't care. Islam is no different. And I was told that Mohamed (sp?) made the religion so jews would change to it. But as they didn't he changed the religion and make it less jew friendly (this from a historian book and I haven't read that parts myself but I think what I was told is a good interpretation of that part of the book).

Bernel 19-Feb-2008 08:31

Re: Make Me A Muslim
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Armitage (Post 1627751)
Unfortunatly, atm i dont see any 'islamic' country in the surface of earth. Mekkah and Medina are probably the most authentic islamic places left.

You are a wahhabite? That is a 18th century invention not any original Islam.
First you write
Quote:

You see, alot of Islamic thought was lost then.
then you tell us that
Quote:

Islam's Message is unchanged since 1400 years, thats where my certainity for Islam comes from.
How can it be unchanged and lost at the same time? Islam is just as much victim to ambiguity in the message as is Christianity. Many passages in the Quran are unclear or contradictory, and the hadiths may or may not be made up later. Different branches of Islam have different opinions on which of them to trust. Even if the message is unchanged, that doesn't prove it is also true.

demi, even your selected passage from the Bible is immoral since it supports slavery.

DHoffryn 19-Feb-2008 09:55

Re: Make Me A Muslim
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Armitage (Post 1627778)
And this is *My path, a Straight One, so you shall follow it, and do not follow the other paths lest they divert you from His path. That is what He has enjoined you to that you may be righteous." (6:151-153)[/color][/i]

Do you find anything in these verses which are immoral? If you follow these commandments would you describe the person as a rightous person?

peace

Well the first is nothing especially original(not that i expect it from islam) and the last part seem like a rather bad advice which may lead to a close mind and hostility against other viewpoints. Also it if you want go all politicly correct on it it may be considered offensive to humans since it can be intepreted as describing humans as being incapable of making the right choice if presented with multiple options


Quote:

Well, Islam will eventually have its revival dispite western meddling, so God Will.
Don't worry as soon as your oil runs out the West won't really care anymore about you and you can revive yourself all you want

Quote:

But thats my biased view.
well that sums it up rather well. You fail to ackonwledge the rather obvious thing everyone has been pointing out exactly because of your bias

Armitage 19-Feb-2008 11:55

I asked 3 questions in my last post and you all have been rather dodging them. Can you please clearly answer them or at least state that you dont know the answer if thats the case or leave this thread?
  • So whats the pure essence of Christianity and Judaism?
  • Is there anything immoral in these verses i posted above?
  • If you follow these commandments would you describe the person as a rightous person?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bernel
How can it be unchanged and lost at the same time?

I was unclear. I thought you would know i was speaking of the Qu'ran. God not only sent Messages but also Messengers who demonstrated the practical application of the Message ("Hadith" the lifestyle of the Prophet (pbuh)).

Quote:

Originally Posted by demi
doesn't that seem moral to you?

Your Bible reference is nice, thanks for posting! I appreciate your effort. To answer your question. These are moral commandments for me, yes. But they are against my sense of hmm .. how shall i say ... justice or security(?). I will pick an example:

17 You shall not murder. It tells me whats moral but it does not tell me when and how i should adapt this command. Is it absolute? Shall i not even kill in self-defence? Is it relative? To which point can i relativate this commandment without negating it? To be honest, i want to say that there might be Bible references which give answers to these questions but your Bible reference as you posted it isnt giving me these answers, which i need to be able to make sense of them. Compare the Bible with the Quranic reference:

and do not kill the soul which GOD Has forbidden, except in justice. You shall not kill and then God gives an exception, 'except in justice'. You have a definition in the quran of what is forbidden and what is allowed and what justice means in Islam. This is moral and it gives you a sense of security in your act. Thats the difference between Islam and Christianity.

peace

Bernel 19-Feb-2008 13:05

Re: Make Me A Muslim
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Armitage (Post 1627857)
[*]Is there anything immoral in these verses i posted above?

Out of all the Quran and hadiths, why do you only care about those few lines? They are hardly enough to giude your entire life. Furthermore, reading them the same way you read the corresponding passage from the Bible:

And be kind to your parents;Is that absolute, am I not even allowed to be rude to my parents in self defense? How do you do if you find your father beating up your mother? Being kind to one will hurt the other.

and do not kill your unborn children for fear of poverty, We provide for you and for them; So what if your first child starved to death, are you still assumed to believe that "we" will provide for the next? Clearly this passage has no bearing on the real world where "we" don't provide for millions of children.

Quote:

17 You shall not murder. It tells me whats moral but it does not tell me when and how i should adapt this command.
Your passages from the Quran says nothing about when and if you have the right to kill, so I don't think you are in position to complain about the Bible being unclear here. In other passages both the Bible and Quran give countless situations in which you should kill people, it's hard to tell which is worst in its bloodthirst.

Armitage 19-Feb-2008 13:51

Bernel: a short reply only for now. I want others to answer my 3 questions before i post again (which you havent, unfortunatley, but maybe you'll answer them eventually).

Bible: You shall not [do this] with no exception. The consequence is to take it all absolute, literally but is that intended, is there evidence in the Bible to take these commandments absolute? At least those posted verses have this structure.
Quran: has absolute orders (yes, treating your parents is absolute) and when needed it relativates the orders as you can see from the verses i quoted from the Qur'an.

peace

DHoffryn 19-Feb-2008 16:03

I already answered your question concerning this very limited example of islam. Altough i don't use such silly descriptions as immoral. And since you can't judge a person based on so little information your third question is rather pointless

As for the first one the details don't matter. As people have been trying to tell you it doesn't matter if it's islam,judaism or some pshycological program. To repeat Syke who arleady answered quite well

Quote:

Precisely. The fact that this was the Muslim religion is inconsequential. If you had chosen any moral code and enforced it on them for three weeks you would have seen that same dedication of purpose. It gives structure, order and a false sense of meaning and purpose to these people's lives. It's a distraction and diversion from the issues and emptiness plaguing them, and rather than deal with them they're pursuing smoke and mirrors.


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