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-   -   Do you believe in God? (https://forums.utopiatemple.com/showthread.php?t=18887)

Hurleyy 31-Dec-2002 04:04

Do you believe in God?
 
Well there always seems to be some type of religious aspect in some threads so I decided to make this one. You can talk about any aspect of religion, evidence of a god, why god doesn't exist, the bible, and stuff like that. It seems to me that these discussions are the most interesting.

Personally, I believe in some type of higher being, but not all of the Christian beliefs. The topic of whether God exists or not is very controversial, because there is no real evidence to support it.

Have fun with this one.

Just Someone 31-Dec-2002 04:07

i believe in god but i don't believe in most other beliefs. i think that the bible was just made up by a bunch of men with no evidence and a lot of it is nonsence. (maybe thats coz i haven't read it)

obviously religion is not for me, but many people enjoy it, so i will not complain about that.

Hurleyy 31-Dec-2002 04:15

That is very similar to what I believe. The bible was written by men. So it could all just be a load of crap. It gets me very aggrivated trying to explain to a Christian that the bible was just written by men and isn't true.

Greeney 31-Dec-2002 04:15

yes, i do believe in God



let's say the big bang theory is right....how was space made and how were the sun's made..then again how were people made and how was water and earth made out of clashing fires and gases?

Hurleyy 31-Dec-2002 04:20

Just because you can't explain something now doesn't mean we won't be able to sometime. You can't explain something therefore you assume God must have done something?

Suns are made from gas becoming compacted together.

takama 31-Dec-2002 04:23

religion is vital bullshit that a society cant live without. i dont believe it, because its bullshit, but i dont pick on the believers, because its important to keep a society running. plus i shouldnt pick on people just because of what they believe, oh wait i forgot christians hate atheists anyway.

i stopped believing in god, or anything, because my sunday teacher told me that a rich man cant really go to heaven. its so obvious that a guy made up this religion to gain the support of the peasents.. also how can god love everyone, and then have christians enslave blacks, massicre the indians, and have crusades (which killed so many innocents). god doesnt love everyone. gog wants you to join the army. god wants you to die for god, and country. atheists just dont have that encouragment..only religious people have the beliefs to be willing to pointlessly die in a war

Just Someone 31-Dec-2002 04:26

Quote:

(Originally posted by greeney)

yes, i do believe in God



let's say the big bang theory is right....how was space made and how were the sun's made..then again how were people made and how was water and earth made out of clashing fires and gases?
ok, how did god make water and earth? did he just put them down on earth?

i think its more likely that water and earth were made out of fire and gases then them just appearing.

Just Someone 31-Dec-2002 04:30

Quote:

(Originally posted by Pheonix BD)

That is very similar to what I believe. The bible was written by men. So it could all just be a load of crap. It gets me very aggrivated trying to explain to a Christian that the bible was just written by men and isn't true.
yep definately! me too!

i have a friend (ironically called christian) who is part of some "new modern church without hymns and stuff" and he keeps trying to convince me to join it. i tell him "i'm not joining your cult so stop bugging me about it" and then he's like "don't you believe in the bible?" and i try explaining to him and he doesn't even listen to my answer.

Just Someone 31-Dec-2002 04:39

Quote:

(Originally posted by takama)

religion is vital bullshit that a society cant live without. i dont believe it, because its bullshit, but i dont pick on the believers, because its important to keep a society running. plus i shouldnt pick on people just because of what they believe, oh wait i forgot christians hate atheists anyway.

i stopped believing in god, or anything, because my sunday teacher told me that a rich man cant really go to heaven. its so obvious that a guy made up this religion to gain the support of the peasents.. also how can god love everyone, and then have christians enslave blacks, massicre the indians, and have crusades (which killed so many innocents). god doesnt love everyone. gog wants you to join the army. god wants you to die for god, and country. atheists just dont have that encouragment..only religious people have the beliefs to be willing to pointlessly die in a war
yes i have always thought this too. i think a small group of people created this religion for support. more people joined because they thought it will help them understand things, and give them hope of better stuff after they die.

most people these days only celebrate christmas because of presents and big christmas dinner and those crappy carols which some make no sence at all. (eg. wtf is "ding dong merrily on high" supposed to mean?) most people don't know anythin about christmas history, and i think they are not missing out on much at all!

also about all that killing stuff. i have always thought that too, but it's not only the christian religion. it's in other religions too.

for example (no offence or racism intended in the following paragraph) ... in the islam religion, most people are fine with it, but there are some fanatics who take it so seriously, they say that they love their god allah but they say he tells them to kill people, why would any god do this??? i think it's just these people taking it too seriously, anyway, allah is the same god as the christian and jewish ones anyway.

also has anyone noticed that the 3 main religions that are always fighting are jewish/christian/islam? these 3 all started from eachother. jewish was the first, then christian, then islam. other religions don't fight as much because they do not share the same holy places.

Hurleyy 31-Dec-2002 04:49

God told the people to not worship idols of him. Now don't get me wrong or anything but isn't praying to a crucifix idol worshipping?

They also act like a statue or the bible is holy. Like Oh you just dropped a bible!! It is just a book for gods sake. At the church they have kneelers in front of Jesus or Mary to pray to. Idol worship?

Priests act like they are holy or something. God didn't ask you to be a priest did he? He didn't give you special powers. Really no one gave them the right to be holy. Just other men. And the whole telling your sins to a priest. Why do you need to tell a priest your sins? He isn't God. If you want to tell your sins pray or whatever.

I think it is just all a big scam so they can act like they have authority or something. Sitting under the vatican are millions of dollars in gold and art so why don't you sell that for the poor? A priest shouldn't have possesions. They are in service to the poor.

Collecting money in church. Now Jesus himself, the leading figure of Christianity, went to the temple, and flipped all the collecting tables because church isn't supposed to be about money.

If there is a God, I think man corrupted and altered what his teachings truly were, to benefit man and not spreading the word or whatever. Those are the reasons I don't believe in any organized religion.

takama 31-Dec-2002 04:57

i just wish christians would leave the non-believers alone. im not just talking the prejudice vrs atheists, but im also strongly speaking against the christian childrens fund. i know those are poor kids, and i want to help them, but the christain childrens fund gives the kid stuff from your money, while basicly forcing the kid to convert. once again othodox christians dont believe in this :b heh we got it all

Just Someone 31-Dec-2002 04:58

Quote:

(Originally posted by Pheonix BD)


Priests act like they are holy or something. God didn't ask you to be a priest did he? He didn't give you special powers. Really no one gave them the right to be holy. Just other men. And the whole telling your sins to a priest. Why do you need to tell a priest your sins? He isn't God. If you want to tell your sins pray or whatever.
priests also preach that it's wrong to have homosexual sex but then some (not all) of them do it to little boys, it's disgusting.

and when they're accused of something like this. they don't just call upon any of their friends to back them up, they call upon church-goers who believe all the false lies from church and from the priests. then these people are like "i believe him because i don't think he would do something like this and i don't need any evidence" (john howard said something just like that recently but i forgot exactly what he said)

Hurleyy 31-Dec-2002 05:03

We need to get some churchies in here so it doesn't become a Christian bashing thread.

Lord Ares 31-Dec-2002 05:28

Peronally I do believe in Gods (as in gods in other religions...I am not a Christian but I do believe in God and stuff...I believe in Buddhism and Taoism...)

Religious texts are written by men (with the insturctions of God I presume), the texts are used by men for various purposes e.g. to find reasons for things unexplained by our current level of science...used for motivation during times of hardships etc...

God is something that I do believe exists...but it is up to the mind of the human race to explain the makings of God...

when one is enlighten, God is near you...helping you to reach the next level...Paradise, the land of no sufferings and pain...

If one man realise or seen through how things work in this world...he is not affected by sufferings and pain and only wait for the time when he goes to Heaven...he is enlighten...

P.S: the above is just my comments...strictly no offense to all opinions of others...

Brend 31-Dec-2002 05:36

I do not believe in any Gods or anything, because no person has yet to answer this to me, religious or not...

Prove to me that God does NOT exist. No one can prove to me that he doesn't exist. Then that begs the question, if something cannot be said not to exist, then it must exist?

Also, why is God always male? No one can see an omnipicent being until they die or so it is said, therefore they cannot know the gender of such a god, nor that it is old, young, humanoid, or whatever.

And here's another question... If a god created the universe, what created this god? It had to come from somewhere... And it seems to me that no one has an answer for this.

Religion is just too full of holes for anyone with sanity to believe in it.

DelbourgPicaune 31-Dec-2002 05:44

Here I am, the buy you guys need to argue against

My strictly Christian standpoint:

It wasn't the men that wrote the Bible, it was the Holy Spirit that entered the men, and God used the person as the carrier of his message.

And just because believers or preachers aren't perfect doesn't mean God is wrong.

In fact, the existence of evil within humanity, even the priests and stuff just proves one of Christianity's major point, that all humans are born into sin and are not perfect, never will be on this earth.

All fall short of the glory of God.

//-------------------------------------------------

but then, I don't believe in imposing my belief on others:

*I believe in charity but not in government welfare
*Adultery and sex before marriage are grievous sins, but I'm against outlawing them

etc. etc.

DelbourgPicaune 31-Dec-2002 05:51

Quote:

(Originally posted by Brend AA)
I do not believe in any Gods or anything, because no person has yet to answer this to me, religious or not...

Prove to me that God does NOT exist. No one can prove to me that he doesn't exist. Then that begs the question, if something cannot be said not to exist, then it must exist?

Also, why is God always male? No one can see an omnipicent being until they die or so it is said, therefore they cannot know the gender of such a god, nor that it is old, young, humanoid, or whatever.
God's nature goes over and above such things as gender or age.
In standard english language, it's proper to refer to someone of unidentified gender as "he".
And in traditional use of language, there is very little distiction between terms like "father" and "parent", "man" and "human" etc, and what many consider to be generally male ("father" "son" "Son of Man") representation just stuck as tradition, but it's meaningless to worry about God's gender.
Quote:

And here's another question... If a god created the universe, what created this god? It had to come from somewhere... And it seems to me that no one has an answer for this.
Time is a nature of the universe that God created, and before the creation, there was no such thing as time, no such time period as before creation. (I think St. Augustine explained it as something along that line)
Quote:

Religion is just too full of holes for anyone with sanity to believe in it.
what holes? tell me about those holes.

Dilbert 31-Dec-2002 05:57

lolz, probably will post something about a dome or how the revelation is false or other useless things.

anywho, i personally dont like atheists, not because they dont believe in my God, but because they seem pretty closed-minded. i dont mind if u r an agnostic, but atheists usually get on religious people's nerves with pointless remarks.

Hurleyy 31-Dec-2002 06:00

Everyone says that there must be a God because someone had to create space. Well then where did God come from? If God can just be here, why couldn't have space just been there. Empty space is far more believeable then a being who created everything, just exists, and has never actually given solid evidence that he exists.

2883 31-Dec-2002 06:03

I am very sure that a being exists, I have looked for many things in religon that religon can not give. When I see religon such as christian, I see slavery... not to be mean or anyting but when I hear and I've heard it alot that I must give my Will over to God and then be filled by his Will it makes me sick. God gave me the power of reason, the Will to make things happen around me. He gave us so much to make us Free, yet I hear that I must give them back and become a witnessing christian? I have to freinds who are christians, one hardcore, the other relizes that the bible is man made therefore flawed. He says it opens the door, all you have to do is walk through and look for your self. That the things in the bible are both false yet real at the same time. God gave us reason, logic, Willpower, and faith in the unknown. But that faith goes against the reason and logic he gave us...

God is a mystery, we must find our own ways to him and his paradise. Through any means we have taken I belive that all religons have truth with in, those truths are shared in all other (good) religons. (not satan or anything like that)Even wicca has the same truths, but in wiccan there is a double egded blade at work, "what you send out comes back 3 fold" do evil and it does return, do good and so shall it return. Yes the bible says magic is bad, but with all things that cannot be explained it is either thrown to god as a mirical or called a curse of the dark one...


Bible-hand made by man
the forest planted by god with a single act eons ago. With has more sprirtual power? the earth gods creation, or a peice of dead organic wood with words printed to it?

MontyC 31-Dec-2002 06:09

I believe in God. Believing is God makes a lot of sense to me it fills in stuff I don't understand. I'll believe in God until a time that God not existing is proven to me.

Just Someone 31-Dec-2002 06:24

Quote:

I believe in God. Believing is God makes a lot of sense to me it fills in stuff I don't understand. I'll believe in God until a time that God not existing is proven to me.
so if believing in god fills in all the stuff you don't understand with lies (not lies from god but lies from priests and stuff)...

would you rather not understand, or not know the truth?

Quote:

anywho, i personally dont like atheists, not because they dont believe in my God, but because they seem pretty closed-minded. i dont mind if u r an agnostic, but atheists usually get on religious people's nerves with pointless remarks.
i think it's the other way around. you christians (or what ever religion you are from) are the closed minded ones. you do not listen to other people who have proper explinations. you people will believe priests and the bible with no evidence at all. and we athiests make pointless remarks? i don't think so! go to church and you will see it's 1 hour of pointless remarks! listen to some christmas carols an you will see that some are pointless and some don't make any sence at all "ding dong merrily on high" What kind of stupid carol is that

borge 31-Dec-2002 06:33

I believe in God, I also belive that the bible may not be accurate in some areas as it was written by men under the inspiration of God...however i do believe that the bible is correct woth the Values it teaches(I am not refering to the old testament but to the New testament) :b

Hurleyy 31-Dec-2002 06:49

Do people know that the main cause of all forms of violence are usually religion related?

The Crusades, wars, terrorism, it is all because of differences in religion.

Pakistan and Israel fight over the land that is considered holy to both of them. Well why would either of their gods want them to kill eachother just over land?

The Crusades. Jews, Christians, and Muslims, all fought over the land that was holy to them.

Terrorism. Muslim terrorists believe the western world is evil because of our tolerance of many religoins. They teach that they will go to heaven if they kill westerners, or any other not of their religion.

People get persecuted because of their religion. Killed because of it. Now why would the supposed god want this to happen?

There are so many religions in this world. How can one be right? Either most of the world is screwed over when we die, or people lead lives and believe in something that doesn't exist. Think of when you die, you just die. You cease to exist. Now you are incapable of being pissed off, but wouldn't you be if you based your entire life on nothing? Followed stupid rules for nothing?

I think religion is just a way to keep the world balanced. If people knew they weren't going to live on after death, they wouldn't care what they did here. So I think it is just a barrier to keep chaos from happening.

Little Kid Izzy 31-Dec-2002 06:49

People like dilbert, who by the way, lost a case because he was sued for being homophobic(cuz of the bible), believe everything in it to the letter. They call us atheist closed minded because we refuse to hate or discrimnate against gays and other such people. Because we believe that our futures are in our own hands, and that we have no superior being to listen to. We are close minded? We dont' tell you all to believe that, we just tel you that's what we think. You tell us we are stupid and that we will go to hell.

Furios 31-Dec-2002 07:16

Quote:

Time is a nature of the universe that God created, and before the creation, there was no such thing as time, no such time period as before creation. (I think St. Augustine explained it as something along that line)
You danced around his question.

You say nothing happened before this god came into existance right? So what created this 'god'? He can't have just appeared could he? An infinity emerging from nothing.

Hurleyy 31-Dec-2002 07:17

Christians, Jews, and Muslims will never win this argument until they God shows himself to us. And athiest or non-God believers will never win this argument until they prove God doesn't exist. So until then we can argue, but neither side is technically right.

nitad001 31-Dec-2002 07:26

I agree Phoenix. Perhaps the question we should be asking is "Does anyone give a shite if there is a god?" ;)

Dilbert 31-Dec-2002 07:27

i am saying atheists r more closed minded than agnostics! everyone is closed minded on things. and guess what, christians r famous for being hypocrites and procastinators. but dont tell me u have nvr been a hypocrite.

and as for u Izzy, i think u r being illogical, or blinded by hatred of me, hence forth u will probably disagree with most of my views. (and maybe u should try being an agnostic instead of an atheist)

Little Kid Izzy 31-Dec-2002 07:37

I'm illogical? Comon, That is a joke. If I really hated you, your computer wouldn't be working right now :eek
Why should I try to be agnostic instead of atheist? What makes you the authority on my beliefs?

Hurleyy 31-Dec-2002 07:44

Please stay on topic :). Everyone that has an opinion about anything is close minded. Until there is solid proof of there being or not being a God religion will continue to exist, and atheism will continue to exist.

Dilbert 31-Dec-2002 07:49

u do realize agnostic and atheism is practically the same... its hardly trying to change ur views.

Mandrak 31-Dec-2002 07:49

Who created God? Who created the universe? If God doesn't exist then why does the universe exist? Where did the matter come from? Why is there ANYTHING in existence at all?

Is this all some made-up fascination created by our "intelligences" suspended in nothingness with no actual time to speak of? Is this life a dream? A hopeless reality with no purpose?

Little Kid Izzy 31-Dec-2002 07:52

There is one major difference between agnostic and atheism.
Agnostic says there could be a god. Atheist says there is no god.

Mandrak, good questions. I sadly, do not have many answeres for them. Actually, none whatsoever that I can think off, but im too hyped up on cake to think into my references.

DarkSkies X 31-Dec-2002 07:54

How are we defining God? Are we defining him/her as the Christian God? Or one of the many religions that base themselves around a God and/or Gods.

I am not Christian, but I do believe in a God/Gods.

Hurleyy 31-Dec-2002 07:54

However farfetched that was, it can be true too. Until that is definately unproven it can be true. What if we are just beings with unimaginable brain power creating this place we live in. Anything can be true.

Dilbert 31-Dec-2002 07:57

so if an agnostic is more open-minded, it should, by ur own views, be more idealistic.

Little Kid Izzy 31-Dec-2002 07:59

I'm very idealistic. I feel that humanity can stop pretending to have an all powerful force protecting them and take it upon themselves to unify with one another to create a better humanity. At the end of the day, we are all humans.

Hurleyy 31-Dec-2002 08:02

It was meant to be any God, but it is mainly Christians who are discussing this.

TheIronMaiden 31-Dec-2002 08:02

Quote:

(Originally posted by Digi Kid Izzy)

I'm very idealistic. I feel that humanity can stop pretending to have an all powerful force protecting them and take it upon themselves to unify with one another to create a better humanity. At the end of the day, we are all humans.


Thats the problem, were all humans. Were all a bunch of arrogant and greedy humans.

Little Kid Izzy 31-Dec-2002 08:03

I am willing to give it up for humanity's future. I'm serious, I don't care about material possesions as much as most americans. I just want to be something, to be able to love somone, hell, to be able to be loved by someone. That's what is most important to me.

Dilbert 31-Dec-2002 08:06

sry about it... would have said thing relating to other religions but if god is capitalized, it means the christian God so i guess i took it the wrong way. will do some research on a minority religion and post 8er

Hurleyy 31-Dec-2002 08:07

The only reason we can believe in a god, is because we have the capacity to. Animals dont believe in a god. Most of the world are animals and insects. Do not animals have any more right to go to an after life than us?

What about beings on other planets. Did a god create them too? There is most certainly other intelligent life out there. Astronomers say there can be up to 30million Earth like planets in the universe because they discover more and more every day. God was a concept when we believed the universe rotated around us. Now that we are discovering more and more through science, God is being disproved more and more.

TheIronMaiden 31-Dec-2002 08:10

I think we believe in God cause its good to have someone to believe in.

I see people that never go to church but when they have a problem they go please God help me!


Its about faith, God gives hope to many people, why take their hope of a better life away?

Halberd Knight 31-Dec-2002 08:30

I feel very sad for the people I see here, for your harts are hard and you refuse to see the truth, God is the scape goat for your sin, you just dont want to admit it, you are full of sin, you want to think that you are "good people" and that God could not exist because if he does then that means you must change, oh and I see one of you blaming God for slavery, killing, and a few other things, you say the christains did it all and they are bad, but I say if they did those thing then they were not Christains, they were killers. it almost makes me cry for you but when I opened this thread I knew this is what I would see, God does exist, and one day every knee will bow and every tongue will confess that Jesus is LORD!, Jesus Died for you! he gave you a gift, all you have to do is except it.

Little Kid Izzy 31-Dec-2002 08:35

I do'nt need god to have hope in people.

I have the three greatest people in the world to give me hope.

My first big bwo, Morphy, for showing me that I was loveable and that I should have hope.
My second big bwo, Cody, for helping me keep the hope and showing me that I am something special.
My best friend, Ben, for being there when I needed a friend here.

These people have been here thru the long and hard path I call life. I am a scientiest, I don't believe in god. But I will not come to him in need, I will go to my own personal gods, those three up there.

Hurleyy 31-Dec-2002 08:35

Uh... your proclamation would be great except you don't have any proof that god does exist. So you can tell me a million times that god exists and Ill go to hell, but it doesn't matter. The second God shows himself to me, I'll repent my "evil" ways and according to Christian teaching hell forgive me.

TheIronMaiden 31-Dec-2002 08:39

Quote:

(Originally posted by Digi Kid Izzy)

I do'nt need god to have hope in people.

I have the three greatest people in the world to give me hope.

My first big bwo, Morphy, for showing me that I was loveable and that I should have hope.
My second big bwo, Cody, for helping me keep the hope and showing me that I am something special.
My best friend, Ben, for being there when I needed a friend here.

These people have been here thru the long and hard path I call life. I am a scientiest, I don't believe in god. But I will not come to him in need, I will go to my own personal gods, those three up there.



Imagine those 3 died (I really wish it never happens man), then who would give you hope.

DarkSkies X 31-Dec-2002 08:40

Why does (a) God have to exist for us to believe?

I see mine everywhere I look..

Little Kid Izzy 31-Dec-2002 08:44

They still would. What they taught me, what they showed me. I would continue on to make them proud whereever they fuck they may after their deaths. I would live to make them proud of me, and because just konwing that they always cared for me will always give me hope to continue.

Dilbert 31-Dec-2002 08:47

although those aforementioned ppl may be great, i hope u do realize they r not perfect. they will have flaws, like all men

Hurleyy 31-Dec-2002 08:47

He doesn't need to exist. The people in here are trying to prove he does though. God is a figure created by people. He is like the ideal person. All forgiving, loves everyone no matter what, and is so powerful he doesn't even need to think about something for it to happen. So people made this figure God for hope.

But we are debating whether he does exist or not.

TheIronMaiden 31-Dec-2002 08:49

Well, that pretty cool, but imagine someone that is alone, his family died when he was a baby or something and he lives his youth with his uncle, who gives a shit about him, then who will that person believe in?

kahn05 31-Dec-2002 08:50

god
 
christianity is a frichen conspiracy... and that god is bs...

DarkSkies X 31-Dec-2002 08:50

They exist in my heart (figuratively speaking of course). Its enough for me.

Little Kid Izzy 31-Dec-2002 08:53

Quote:

(Originally posted by Dilbert)

although those aforementioned ppl may be great, i hope u do realize they r not perfect. they will have flaws, like all men
I know they have flaws, but they will always be some of the greatest people in the world. They have kept me a life when I had a knife an inch from my heart. I don't care if they have flaws, I love them soo much. I never really had friends, I've never really been loved before. But those three showed me that I could be loved, and to believe, to believe that if I want something, that I just need to hope and that it might come true. I may sound naive, I usually don't, but I think I sound my age finally.


To Iron Maiden, that's how I grew up. I was a crack baby. I was basically with my mom who never rally gave a fuck about me. I met morph and cody online, and ben's my friend offline.

Hurleyy 31-Dec-2002 08:53

The only problem with Christianity, and most other organized religions, is that they try to force themselves on other people. They say I am right and you are wrong.

I could care less what someone believes. For all they know they could all be wrong.

Dilbert 31-Dec-2002 08:54

God is vengeful and unmerciful. jesus is the merciful part of God, i believe. cant tell u much, but some1 older christian might answer that

TheIronMaiden 31-Dec-2002 08:55

Quote:

(Originally posted by Digi Kid Izzy)

But those three showed me that I could be loved, and to believe, to believe that if I want something, that I just need to hope and that it might come true.




Thats what god is all about, have someone to believe in.

Little Kid Izzy 31-Dec-2002 08:57

That makes me feel better soo much, knowing that god is vengeful. If he exist, i'm dead :D

Yes Ironmaiden, but I think it is rather pathetic people have to create a fictional character to believe. I can hold these people(at least ben) I can hear them, I can touch them(again, at least ben)

DarkSkies X 31-Dec-2002 08:58

Phoenix: Just like you could be wrong right? :)

Hurleyy 31-Dec-2002 09:01

As God is the term to represent all 3 he can't be the vengeful one.

TheIronMaiden 31-Dec-2002 09:01

Quote:

(Originally posted by Digi Kid Izzy)

That makes me feel better soo much, knowing that god is vengeful. If he exist, i'm dead :D

Yes Ironmaiden, but I think it is rather pathetic people have to create a fictional character to believe. I can hold these people(at least ben) I can hear them, I can touch them(again, at least ben)


People who believe in God think he is as real as Ben is.

Hurleyy 31-Dec-2002 09:02

Yes I could be wrong. But I am not forcing my beliefs on any people.

MontyC 31-Dec-2002 09:05

Could you imagine where humanity would be if people didn't believe in God or gods? Some people would find it pointless to live. If it weren't for people devoting their lives to a god many inventions would not have been created.

Little Kid Izzy 31-Dec-2002 09:08

But that difference is that he is real. God isn't it. I can prove Ben exists. I can't prove the existance of Ben.

Hurleyy 31-Dec-2002 09:11

People would not lose the will to exist if they found there was no god. That is why you have the survival instinct. A person can generally go through anything and still come back alright.

uiman 31-Dec-2002 09:16

Quote:

(Originally posted by Digi Kid Izzy)

But that difference is that he is real. God isn't it. I can prove Ben exists. I can't prove the existance of Ben.
Just out of curiousity can u prove I exist? How?

MontyC 31-Dec-2002 09:18

How do you know God isn't real? Noone will know for sure until they die or God sends them a message. We will either go up to heaven or down to hell,maybe nothing will happen at all. By saying you believe you take that gamble of dieing and going to an afterlife(heaven,purgatory or hell) or you could have just wasted your life beleiving in somethings thats not. I rather beleive in God than to believe in nothing at all.

TheIronMaiden 31-Dec-2002 09:18

Like 20 days ago or so, I had to go to work with my dad (he rents equipment for movies and commercials and things llike that, and his workers were in vacation already). When we were heading back to home (it was 11pM, after 21 hours of working) we got a flat tire. The next day was the day of the Virgen de Guadalupe, she is the religious symbol of us mexicans, and while we were changing the tire I saw hundreds of people passing, they all came from their little towns far away, they walked all day and night just to go to the church and thank God for everything they have (most of them were really poor people).

God is what makes this people go on, continue with their lives and fight, God gives them hope, hope that someday theyll have what they want and theyll be happy, because of that idea they continue fighting.

That idea they have of God is as real or even more real than any of us, and if God gives all this people hope, then I dont see whats bad about God.

Little Kid Izzy 31-Dec-2002 09:18

I can see your post, If I lived close to you, I could meet you. I could call you on the phone. I could see you on a webcam.

Hurleyy 31-Dec-2002 09:19

You are here typing.

The Lost Lands 31-Dec-2002 09:57

Wouldn't the proper way of putting it be~ You think therefore you are.

Anyways, why are so many people in this thread bashing religions as an excuse not to believe in God? The question is, "Do you believe in God?" People should answer the question as such... Whether or not you agree with every nuance of some religion or another's doctrine is not at stake. Whether or not you believe in God though... that's a much harder question for some to answer.

Hurleyy 31-Dec-2002 10:07

Yes but I said you can debate evidence of whether there is or isn't a god, and if the bible s correct or not.

Did anyone know that archaeologists believe that the story of Moses could not have happened. Everyone knows the story of Moses, he was born a Jewish slave and sent down the river in a basket to avoid being killed and was adopted by the family of the Pharoah. God spoke to him through a bush and told him to set free the slaves.

Well archaeologists said that they found the records for the pyramids and it turns out that there is no evidence that Egyptians held Jewish slaves. The people who built the pyramids, were actually paid egyptian laborers, not Jewish slaves who were made to believe built the pyramids for the Egyptians. So doesn't this put an end to one of the biggest Bible stories there is?

snotzombie 31-Dec-2002 10:08

i believe in a higher power.

However, i am also vehemently opposed to most organised religion. I don't see how anyone could believe in things that are so illogical.

my 2 cents =p

chilo 31-Dec-2002 11:23

I do believe in God, although I know that many organized religions are hypocrites.

And as far as the whole archaeologist thing goes. They're not positive, it's speculation.

P.S. Did you know that earth is flat and the center of the universe? And if you sail west from europe you'll go straight to india? My point is that countless scientific "facts" have been proven false at later times, Christianity has survived over 2 millenia and changed the world more than anything else, and that can't be disputed.

xX DonJuan Xx 31-Dec-2002 12:16

Im A Believer
 
I can say that I am a Believer.

There are countless reasons why people do and dont believe in God. I follow what I've learned but I do not follow it blindly, I also follow my experiances.

I would hate to be in a world without God (Religion), I wonder how violent the world would be. If you wonder how violent some (if not most) people are without believing in God. Im not saying that all people who believe in religion are nice than everyone because that simply not true at all, but where would common kindness be?

I believe that God doesnt control our lives, he gave us all a fully functional brain that allows us to think for ourselves. The bad little things that happen to us can be either called "tests of our own instinct" or "life". God didnt make Timmy drink until he was drunk so he can crash into your dear Aunt Jamie, Timmy made Timmy drink. Same with slavery, what could God have done to stop slavery? Put his HUGE HAND down to Earth and say no? Come now...I even think thats ridiculous.

Its not God's fault, its the Damn English people who were too lazy (glutton) and decided to live off the hard work and lives of the Africans. Blame them for their actions, not God.

How about people who are born handicaped, with dieases, or become paraylied in accidents? I'll tell you that they believe in God only because they believe that one day they will be able to walk again, maybe/maybe not on earth but definitely in Heaven. Its called Faith and thats what God teaches you. That is the only thing that keep them alive considering ALL that has happened to them. I mean what does a person paralyzed from the neck down have to live for if he knows that he may never feel, touch or do anything ever again? He might as well take his own life and get it over with if he has to deal with the pain deep within the his heart when he realizes the truth? At least when he believes in God, it teachs him that he can be a still be good man in heart if he lives his life trying to help others by giving faith to those who need it. and still has something to look for.

But thats how I look at it, I see more faith in a paralized man in a wheelchair at church than a standing man posting in these forums. I dare you do look those unfortunate people in the eye and say that they are $#!% out of luck.

DarkSkies X 31-Dec-2002 12:19

For better or for worse though Chilo? :)

ZeroGenesis 31-Dec-2002 13:23

Ok, I'm a Christian, I believe in God, and all that stuff :)

I believe the bible is 100% accurate, barring difficulties in translation and places where language used it metaphor.

And I just don't like the big bang theory. Too illogical:
- First there was nothing. Then it exploded -
does not go make logical sense...

I only support the idea of organised religion to a point. People should be able to gather into groups and congregations to worship, praise and discuss their God. But when you get priesthoods, monks, civil wars, people declaring holy-war on other people that cause thousands of people to go to their deaths, and the sort of thing that went on before the bible was translated into english and other languages and the priests controlled access to the Word of God... these are the points at which I believe organised religion has gone way too far.

And I agree with what Phoenix BD said you can live without a God, I see people all the time who do, they live without something they have never known, and don't have a clue how great it is...


My opinion only.

nimrod 31-Dec-2002 17:14

I dont belive in god

but something about christianity bothered me since sunday in med-evil class when my teacher told us the whole christ story (1st time I know what it is not just parts)

when jesus (while he was crucified) said "oh god why have you left me?" isnt he comitting a sin?
thinking that god has left him

Treaky 31-Dec-2002 17:37

I do belive in God. And I belive the only way to be saved and achieve a place in heaven is thru Jesus Christ. Ouch closemined christian? What are you going to tell me that everyone is going to heaven as long as what they belive in something and truly beleive it. So basically you think you are good enough to go to heaven. I am not but thats the reason for the sacrific. I know yall must of heard this a thousand times but if I truly believe what i believe as somebody has said it to me then I would believe all this that I have been thinking. I am not a public speaker but dont slam the bible if you havnt read it. Not all christians are the same. There are some that are christians only in name. I believe salvation IS for everybody but there is only one way to do that.

Sangor 31-Dec-2002 17:54

There were quite a few interesting and good arguments made and I like the way some of you guys think.

I believe that there is a higher being, may you call it god or something else. I was raised without a proper religon, but I have made my own decisions in this regard and have my own beliefs now. I do not believe in any of the religions as such, but what I really don't believe in is the way a lot of religions are practiced. No offense to anyone. I'm not saying all people of any reliogon are bad, it's just that some people give it a bad name.

I am half German and half Arab, but I don't follow either religon. If you look closely at any religion you will find that they are not what you thought they were. There is a lot of wrong information floating around and makes the religions look bad.

I see religions a bit different. They are there to help people to deal with life and possibly guide them. One thing I personnaly have a problem with is that in all religions you have "leaders" (priests, Imams, etc.)that try to tell you what the religion is all about. In my opinion, everyone has to make their own decision of how they understand the religion and follow their own way!

There were a few comments, criticizing christianity for crusades and slavery and religions in general for things like terrorism and wars. -> Please remenber, no religion can do such a thing, as it is a belief! These things were commited by men/women and you cannot blame a religion for their actions!

I know there are people who take religions as an excuse for their crimes/terrorism, but they don't believe in any religion at all! They only want to reacha goal by any means!

I don't know if I actually make sense here, but I just wanted to share my thoughts on this.

AznBlade 31-Dec-2002 18:16

What is up with the religion threads? We already have like 5 of these...
Quote:

I do belive in God. And I belive the only way to be saved and achieve a place in heaven is thru Jesus Christ.
Now, before I totally go out on you tell me your beliefs on these:
  • Stillbirths
  • People who've never heard of Jesus
  • Jews
  • Agnostics
  • People who have had bad experiences with Christians and relate that experience to the faith, therefore shunning it
  • Who would be more likely to go to heaven- A good atheist who's helped the poor all his life and done good deeds, or the serial killer Christian?
-=--=-=-=-
Quote:

when jesus (while he was crucified) said "oh god why have you left me?" isnt he comitting a sin?
thinking that god has left him
It was a part of a Psalm. I forget which one, but it was a psalm of saying how God is always there. The gospels writers only put down the first few words if they did.
-=---=-=-=-=
Quote:

I believe the bible is 100% accurate, barring difficulties in translation and places where language used it metaphor.
Before I make a complete rebuttle, tell me your views:
  • Which version, type, and pusblished version of the bible is 100% accurate?
  • Why do the gospels contradict on quotes if 100% accurate?
  • Why does the bible contradict in several places? Like here
-=-=-=-=-=-=
I do believe in God, although I know that many organized religions are hypocrites.

And as far as the whole archaeologist thing goes. They're not positive, it's speculation.

P.S. Did you know that earth is flat and the center of the universe? And if you sail west from europe you'll go straight to india? My point is that countless scientific "facts" have been proven false at later times, Christianity has survived over 2 millenia and changed the world more than anything else, and that can't be disputed.
[/quote]
Exactly how am I for example a hippocrite? I don't believe the earth is flat, neither do most modern Christians. Please tell me how being a Christians is hippocricy, and don't try to reference the past actions of other Christians, for religions evolves over time.
-=-=-=--=-
Quote:

snotzombie i believe in a higher power.

However, i am also vehemently opposed to most organised religion. I don't see how anyone could believe in things that are so illogical.

my 2 cents =p
Tell me what exactly I believe in is illogical.
-=----=-
Quote:

Phoenix BD Yes but I said you can debate evidence of whether there is or isn't a god, and if the bible s correct or not.

Did anyone know that archaeologists believe that the story of Moses could not have happened. Everyone knows the story of Moses, he was born a Jewish slave and sent down the river in a basket to avoid being killed and was adopted by the family of the Pharoah. God spoke to him through a bush and told him to set free the slaves.

Well archaeologists said that they found the records for the pyramids and it turns out that there is no evidence that Egyptians held Jewish slaves. The people who built the pyramids, were actually paid egyptian laborers, not Jewish slaves who were made to believe built the pyramids for the Egyptians. So doesn't this put an end to one of the biggest Bible stories there is?
That depends. How far back does the evidence point to, and is there a possibility that the evidence may be circumstantial in that the Jews were in Egyptians clothes and used Egyptian tools, or that there was a misinterpretation in evidence? There could also be the possibility that it was talking of another Egyptian city where the Jews were enslaved than where the evidence was found. Aren't there pyramids all over Egypt?
-=---=-
Quote:

Just out of curiousity can u prove I exist? How?
I see your typing as a reference point. At that, you stated "I" meaning you. Since you referenced yourself, you must exist to reference.
-=-=--
Quote:

"I think therefore I am"
Not entirely true. You must have a reference point to think from. No reference point, no thought. There wouldn't even be a definition to the word thought.
-=--=-
Quote:

But that difference is that he is real. God isn't it. I can prove Ben exists. I can't prove the existance of Ben.
Can you prove God isn't real? Can you prove time is real? Suppose some higher being is on a different plane as time is, or another plane of existance. How do you prove otherwise?


OK... that's it for now. I have to go check my utopia account.

Narsius 31-Dec-2002 18:50

I think that people around the world in different countries and with different cultures can not take the idea that all the universe is made up without any special power supporting it.
However, if people believe in god...I don'nt know why they have to assume that he set rules!
Maybe he just created this world for people to live in!
Maybe the people in the past that claimed that they are "prophets" and "massengers from god" are just trying to be common or trying to force their ideas on other people.
I am not saying that they were not great, they were because of all the great works they have done.

But at the end of the day at least a person has an idea to refer to, in times of need and in times of sorrow, just to calm ourselves down.

Hurleyy 31-Dec-2002 21:43

There was a whole thing on the discovery or history channel about the Moses story. They said there was no records of any Jewish slaves in Egypt at the time when Moses story was to take place. Also, a big part of the story of Moses, is the Jewish slaves building the pyramids. Now they found records that say paid Egyptian laborers built the pyramids. That would contradict the entire story of Moses.

Little Kid Izzy 31-Dec-2002 21:49

Yeah, Egyption Laborers were the once that build the pyramids. The Egyptions felt that the inferior jews were not worthy to build the pyramids for their pharoahs.

TheSpyKyle 31-Dec-2002 21:58

here is a quote from the movie "Dogma" that expresses my thoughts very well...

That poem, "The Walrus and the Carpenter" that's an indictment of organized religion. The walrus, with his girth and his good nature, he obviously represents either Buddha, or...or with his tusk, the Hindu elephant god, Lord Ganesha. That takes care of your Eastern religions. Now the carpenter, which is an obvious reference to Jesus Christ, who was raised a carpenter's son, he represents the Western religions. Now in the poem, what do they do...what do they do? They...They dupe all these oysters into following them and then proceed to shuck and devour the helpless creatures en masse. I don't know what that says to you, but to me it says that following these faiths based on mythological figures ensure the destruction of one's inner-being.
Organized religion destroys who we are by inhibiting our actions...by inhibiting our decisions, out of...out of fear of some...some intangible parent figure who...who shakes a finger at us from thousands of years ago and says...and says, "Do it--Do it and I'll fuckin' spank you!"

Gen Edwards 31-Dec-2002 22:26

Here is something very interesting I noticed in history.

During world war 2, Hitler had his SS officers. They gave orders to other soldires under the excuse, We follow hitler, We are the word of hiter, so you follow us like you would follow hitler or you will feel the wrath of hitler

Joseph Stalin- leader of the USSR had Commisars. These people told other soldires, We follow stalin, We are the word of stalin, so you follow us like you would follow stalin or you will feel the wrath of stalin

The chruch has priests, leaders of parishes ect. they say: the church is the word of god, so you follow the church like you would follow god or you will feel the wrath of god and go to hell and be in a lot of pain

Can anyone notice a small similarity in this? and since many churches have considerable wealth and power, just like the two unsavory characters above. The church, roman catholic, protestant, and all denonimations, (but I dont know whether this is true for muslim budhism, hindu or any others cos we had an RE teacher who was obsessed with convering us to christianaty). It also seemed to work since the chruches controlled an entire continent of several centuries

How can we take the bible as truth, since it is a book that has been copied loads of times, and almost all evidence is in the same book with very little physical proof. I think it is a piece of propaganda, to keep people under control, and keep the churches (and church leaders) having considerable power and influence over the ordinary people

try this. try imagining what being dead is like if heaven and hell dosent exist. it would be nothing. If you came back to life 1 million years later, you woud think you died last second. The human brain can not deal with being shut down, so heaven and hell was devised so people didnt have to deal with the possible of an iternaty of unconsiousness.

Treaky 31-Dec-2002 22:40

To reply to your questions AznBlade.

For one thing i think several times you only took a small section of what somone wrote and left the rest out that would explain their views.

I couldnt find the exact verse but the bible talks about accountablity and young children and those who have not heared of christ would not be held accountable and would have there own place in heaven.

Jews: If you are talking about jew as a race then it is the same as all other races each individual just has to make the decision, but if you are talking about the jewish religion then no unless they have been saved thru Jesus.

Agnositics: ignoring something doesnt mean it isnt there so they would be in the same boat.

All people who profess to be christian are not necessarly christian themselves. Someone just say they are because there friends or family are. But the God doesnt call us to be luke warm. The alsobible doesnt say to mock or scorn nonbeleivers, or any body. I am not perfect and dont deserve a place in heaven but Jesus has payed my way and yours. I am only 16 but I know what I believe, I have seen people who go to church and fca or what ever then talk trash to some geek or freak. God has love for everyone my own friends are largly not christian and I dont conform to secular things and they accept me.

It doesnt matter if you killed Billy Graham God would still forgive you and works alone will not buy you a ticket into heaven.

Hurleyy 31-Dec-2002 23:07

Heres a question that backs up Gen Edwards. Would you rather die and go to hell, or die and cease to exist? I for one would rather go to hell then cease to exist indefinately. I would atleast be in a state aware of myself and what I am doing. Now all, or most religions, have some type of heaven and hell. There is always somewhere you go to after you die. Buddhism you are reborn again and again so essentially you are still alive. But maybe all these were created because people can't deal with the fact that we might just cease to exist when we die. In Christianity, even the evil people get to live on after death in hell, which is far better than no life at all.

Brend 31-Dec-2002 23:10

The only time I'd ever believe in a god would be if a person of that religion proved to me that their god did not exist. Until that point, it is impossible to say that a god exists.

Aether Dominus 01-Jan-2003 00:04

Oi... Been awhile. Hmm... I love these controversial threads... I, for one, do not believe in God. But that's just because I can be a real cynical bastard sometimes when it comes to something that made everything that we know of in seven days. I just feel like God must be one twisted guy with a messed up sense of humor if He does exist.

Aether Dominus 01-Jan-2003 00:13

however I do find the bible to be a good story, whether it is more than a story or not is really up to you as far as I am concerned.

Little Kid Izzy 01-Jan-2003 00:20

Aether, I completely agree with you. He must have some sick sense of human. According to christian people:

If an atheist did the following:
Destroyed Pollution
Destroyed Hunger
Destroyed Greed
Destroyed Disease

That person would still go to hell. I mean, shessh, just cuz he does'nt believe in god? That's just sick shit.

Aether Dominus 01-Jan-2003 00:34

Oh, aye. I agree with you on that but by sick sense of humor I meant more along the lines of why he would find it necessary to put a six year old's grandma in a car wreck, then into a coma for three days, and then put her into a cardiac arrest... and then make that kids life hell ever after... I mean I was just a six year old kid who had to watch his grandma wither away like some diseased rose... har de har har har... sick bastard...

Rabbousamai 01-Jan-2003 00:49

Quote:

"I think therefore I am"
Not entirely true. You must have a reference point to think from. No reference point, no thought. There wouldn't even be a definition to the word thought.
The basis for Cogito Ergo Sum was that Descartes sat down and tried to come up with something that he knew was true. Without using definitions (like Carbon has 6 protons), he came up with I Think I Exist as a statement of irrifutable truth, and from there comes "i think therefore i am"

Rabbousamai 01-Jan-2003 00:57

Quote:

P.S. Did you know that earth is flat and the center of the universe? And if you sail west from europe you'll go straight to india? My point is that countless scientific "facts" have been proven false at later times, Christianity has survived over 2 millenia and changed the world more than anything else, and that can't be disputed.
That was back in the olden days, when the church had a heap of power, and science pretty much didnt exits, i.e. there was no chemistry, no physchology, physics was very limited, and an astronomer who came up with something got punished by the church. Since the church was the loudest opposition to the 'round world' ideas anyway...
Thankfully, somebody at some stage in history with some power managed to work out that the church wasn't really capable of looking after mankind, hence its separation from any real power. This was after they pretty much held back the world for a thousand years, until the rennaisance. (i think there still holding it back...look at genetics and stem cell research)

Dilbert 01-Jan-2003 01:00

Quote:

Can anyone notice a small similarity in this? and since many churches have considerable wealth and power, just like the two unsavory characters above. The church, roman catholic, protestant, and all denonimations, (but I dont know whether this is true for muslim budhism, hindu or any others cos we had an RE teacher who was obsessed with convering us to christianaty). It also seemed to work since the chruches controlled an entire continent of several centuries
the same goes for most other governments. the police say we take orders from government. we r the word (law) of the government. if u dont listen to us, u will get the wrath of the government. is it just me or do u have something against organized heirarchy...

also, i was not aware any scientist or theologian proved who and how they built the pyramids, henceforth, one of the greatest mysteries. as the bible was written (old testiment) when the egytian were around, it would be the credible source.

and, if some one has never heard of God, or never had the spirit knocking on their door, they would be judged by God for what each has done. (i believe)

Aether Dominus 01-Jan-2003 01:10

I don't know if this has been said in here all ready, haven't had time to review it yet, but I feel that christianity is a way of controlling the masses. That, or it has been perverted so much that it has become that. The way I see it, the only separation between church and state is that church works better. I mean it only makes sense. Without church, a man would kill someone and then spend about sixty-some-odd years in jail, with it a man would kill someone and then spend sixty-some-odd years in jail followed by the rest of eternity in the flames of hell... *shrug*

And then there is the whole rest of eternity thing. How can there be a rest of eternity? Eternity doesn't end. I am trying to figure it out but so far I can't see how eternity could have a beginning for a man either... I am trying to work it out at the moment, and getting more and more confused with each passing second... That's my two sense anyways...

asunti2506 01-Jan-2003 01:11

Quote:

(Originally posted by Dilbert)

the same goes for most other governments. the police say we take orders from government. we r the word (law) of the government. if u dont listen to us, u will get the wrath of the government. is it just me or do u have something against organized heirarchy...

also, i was not aware any scientist or theologian proved who and how they built the pyramids, henceforth, one of the greatest mysteries. as the bible was written (old testiment) when the egytian were around, it would be the credible source.

and, if some one has never heard of God, or never had the spirit knocking on their door, they would be judged by God for what each has done. (i believe)
Actually, there are already several working models on how the pyramids were built.

Rabbousamai 01-Jan-2003 01:47

I think ive said this a lot of times...but if god wants us to believe in him, all he's gotta do is come here and say hi. I doubt there is anybody who wouldnt believe in him if he only said hello, and i don't think its too much to ask for a god to make a one-hour-every-hundred-years appearence to his people.

Elan SsM 01-Jan-2003 04:49

I personelly don't believe in his exsistense, but if I were him, I'd certainly not want to come spend any time with my creations. Probably after the Spanish Inquisition I'd have stopped watching Earth.

melkormx3 01-Jan-2003 05:08

Following Gods description in the Bible...

It is impossible for God to be imperfect therefore it is impossible for YOU to fully understand why he does what he does. But others who understand him better than YOU can say that YOU are wrong because it is impossible for God to stop caring for the world.

God can never do anything unjust, Therefore he absolutely has to watch over everything. Also he can't destroy things unjustly.

It must be nice to be a fourth dimensional being.

Always remember that when you think about things that are perfect, you can't impose your imperfections in them.

So if your talking to Christians, make sure you undertstand what their God is before you belittle him.

Aether Dominus 01-Jan-2003 05:50

Oh I understand that He is supposed to be perfect... and that is my second biggest reason for not believing... I am just too damned analytical, no pun intended, to believe in something that is omnipotent, omnipresent, omni-what-have-you. I just mean that I have to see Him before I believe in Him. I don't pretend to understand him but that doesn't mean that I can't be vengeful and spiteful towards him for having a bad life... That doesn't really sound like what I intended to say but I will come back and refine it later... it's 11:50 right now and I wanna go watch the ball drop. See something happy instead of drudging up all these memories...

ZeroGenesis 01-Jan-2003 06:20

Quote:

Oh I understand that He is supposed to be perfect... and that is my second biggest reason for not believing... I am just too damned analytical, no pun intended, to believe in something that is omnipotent, omnipresent, omni-what-have-you. I just mean that I have to see Him before I believe in Him. I don't pretend to understand him but that doesn't mean that I can't be vengeful and spiteful towards him for having a bad life... That doesn't really sound like what I intended to say but I will come back and refine it later... it's ##:## right now and I wanna go watch the ball drop. See something happy instead of drudging up all these memories...

You have to see the sun rise in the morning to believe that it has? Do you have to see your dinner before you believe you will eat one? Do you have to analyse the atmosphere around you with each breath before you'll believe that what you are breathing is real?

Some people... But if you're set on going to hell anyway, there isn't much you do can make it worse, imho.

Rabbousamai 01-Jan-2003 07:43

Quote:

You have to see the sun rise in the morning to believe that it has? Do you have to see your dinner before you believe you will eat one? Do you have to analyse the atmosphere around you with each breath before you'll believe that what you are breathing is real?
Do you have to see the invisible eight-legged elephant in my backyard before you believe in it? Or are you satisfied that he exists if i give you a book discribing him?

Hurleyy 01-Jan-2003 08:11

God doesn't do anything unjustly? The story of Naoh is a perfect example of contradicting that. God got pissed at the Earth and made the flood and only saved Noah and his family and the animals on his boat. Now if God loved everyone why'd he kill the entire world?

HlR0 01-Jan-2003 08:13

Let's take a close look at "God." MILLIONS of people have been killed because either because "God" told them to, or were beleived to be an enemy of him. All forms of religion have caused some form of death. You never hear:

"Today, one hundred people were killed in an Athiest bombing of a Christian church."

Not going to happen. HOWEVER, look at what just about all terrorists have based on almost every attack they have ever made. Those people beleived that Christianity was not right.

My view is just to not care if there is a god or not. It will simply lead to trouble. People have twisted and turned this so much that it seems like a story you tell your kids to keep them from misbehaving.

Little Kid Izzy 01-Jan-2003 09:38

Zero, it is not always about seeing, but about knowing and having facts. I can prove that I am going to eat dinner because I see the preparations for dinner. There is no proof for god's existance. I'll use the eight leggeded elephant thing.

I have an invisible eight legged elephant that you have no proof for it's existance, and I tell you read a book? Would you seriously believe it? (I know I'm just restating his example, but bear with me). I'm pretty sure you wouldn't.

That's how atheist feel. We have no proof for some god, and you tell us a book will tell us. A book that is a a fiction, I might add, it meets all the criteria for fiction.

Alderock 01-Jan-2003 10:32

i dont believe in god because the way i see it, is that if i want to, i can write a book myself, claiming im receiving messages from a NEW god, and that the god christians worship is a false one, and everyone should follow my new god, and basically i have exactly the same standing as christianity, i can say my relgion is also based on faith and all my 'proof' is just as strong as any other god-believing religion, only you thought yours up a long time ago and lots of people know about it and thats why no-one would belive me, but everyone will believe you, or something like that. its pretty ridiculous really,,
i know ive posted this address before, but seriously:

http://www.christianburner.com/testimonials.html#hank

mistajames 01-Jan-2003 11:25

I don't believe in any "superior being" in any way, shape or form. It is but a mere fact that matter is a forever regenerating source that neither diminishes or increases over time. It is a simple, utter fact that spontanious generation does not exist in this universe. It is because of this fact that a superior being could not have created the universe from nothingness. (unless you can take into account advanced quantum theory, which is totally irrelevant to the issue at hand) This means that time is infinite, but space is not. In addition to this, "God" itself must have originated from somewhere if time was finite and space infinite, proving my point doubly.

Secondly, the human body shows no symptoms of having a "soul." Considering that the theory of evolution is right, (which there is an overwhelming supply of physical evidence for) a person has evolved from microscopic organisms over a period of over 3 billion years. We have evolved a neural system consisting primarily of the human brain. It is a fact that the brain forms our persona's, thoughts and emotions using electrical patterns created using energy from the other vital organs in the human body. It is also a fact that, when we die, our physical body will decay, as will our brain. This ceases the electronic impuses in the brain, and also kills the brain cells that harbour all of the aspects of the human psyche: emotions, personality, memory, etc... The body rots and the human being is "recycled" into the earth. No energy or matter is lost, and none is gained. All these pieces of evidence are true, proven facts, and cannot be disputed without having other scientific (not religious or archiological) evidence.

Thirdly, sociologically speaking, the human race would develop at least one or more systems of beliefs over the course of our history in order to explain the oddities that occured in people's lives. This is also a proven fact, even if you are a member of a religion there are more than 50,000 other religions that you believe are wrong, and that have believers as avid and devout to their religion as you are to yours. The very number of these religions is a sound piece of evidence that religion is here for the mere purpuse to explain the things that cannot be explained at that time. After a time, these religions begin to fall into decay as the "unexplainable" is explained once again. With the rise to modern science, many of these "miracles" are proven totally wrong with scientific evidence, thus explaining the decline of believers in organized religions in modern time. Once again, these are all facts that cannot be ignored.

Fourthly, a great deal of the "holy scripture" of religions is total bull. No matter which religion is being discussed, there is always an overwhelming portion of the writings that have been proven wrong either by the facts of reality, other section of the scripture or scientific experimentation, and the small parts that aren't proven totally incorrect are either incredibly illogical anyways or are so incredibly idiotic that any normal person (nonbeliever) would either read it as a fantasy novel or look away in disgust. I will not name anything in particular, because there is enough of these examples in this thread to prove this point. This also leads to my next point, which is the fact that almost all of the religious writings were written long after the events that they believed to have occured. This leads to the fact that the facts may be distorted to a great degree, or even simply intricate lies to warp or control the populace. And even if the writers of the holy writings were visionaries, how were they able to perfectly understand the voice of a being that is "Beyond Comprehension." (Just another fact disapproving the existance)

Finally, the "God" that so many people believe in is a total utter hypocrite. Considering that he exists let me go through his ten commandments now. (just focusing on Christiantiy for a while) Thou shalt not kill, but he does it freely when he caused the great flood and killed most of the population of the earth, and when he made it rain fire, killing many. Also, it was his given power that allowed Joshua to tumbel the walls of the City of Jericho, and slaughter all that dwelled within. Thou shall not commit adultery, but he did in impregnating Mary Mandolin while she was in love with her future husband. It is also notable to mention that, should Mary Mandolin not say that it was God that caused her pregnancy she would suffer a horrible death by stoning- a worthy enough excuse to say that it was a magical mystical supreme being that caused these events to occur. Whether he did or not, it is impossible for the pregnancy to take place without some form of sex, natural or supernatural. (before both he and Mary were married) which should cost them both an "eternity in hell." Also, thou shalt not covet thy neighbor's goods, but this "being" does in many ways, by taking what is not his. So, even if all you believers do believe in his existance, why would a person want to pray and give homage to a being that dictates itself as being perfect in every way, but that cannot even hold true to his own word. A make-believe Hell is a small price to pay for the dishonour and disgrace that you would recieve for believing in God solely for the purpuse of going to "heaven" when you die.

These are the facts, and a person must disapprove every one of my arguments in order to prove the existance of God to me. I have nothing against religion and religious people; they can believe whatever they want. But it is annoying when someone believes in something, but doesn't put up any valid arguments, or they state that "If you can't tell me how something happens than that proves that my God is the reason for it." Enough with these religious threads already. People will believe whatever they want to believe; however ridiculous their ideas may be, and it takes a hell of a lot of logic and even more evidence to get them to convert.

Hurleyy 01-Jan-2003 11:38

To elaborate on Thou shalt not kill...

He sent the Angel of Death upon innocent people just because they didn't have lamb blood on their door.

Other than that.. right on.

Aether Dominus 01-Jan-2003 19:38

Zero- First of all, that was a figure of speech. What I meant by it was that if God wants me to believe in him he should be able to convince me. Second of all, I did have to see the sun rise once, a long time ago, I thought my parents were putting it up there. Third, no I do not need to see or do any of that because I already believe in it. I have believed in it for a long long time now.

Aether Dominus 01-Jan-2003 19:46

And oh yeah. If I don't believe in God, then I don't believe in Satan, which stands to reason that I don't believe in heaven or hell either. If I don't believe in hell, how can I be bent on getting myself there.

Majek 01-Jan-2003 20:04

I believe in God.

But if religion is bullshit because it was made by men, then our sciences are bullshit too. :eek
You are all saying the bible can just be made up by one person, but the bible was made by many people. They can't all be lunatics.

Furios 01-Jan-2003 20:31

Aherm
 
You forgot one thing majek.

Religion = fiction

Science = facts with evidence.

Majek 01-Jan-2003 20:37

Sorry, the above was a bit stupid.
First, someone said before that the more science we discover, the more God is proven to not exist. How is this so? I hate the misconceptions about science verse religion. There is no debate between them. Science would obviously exist no matter what our world was like. Science is just a way of explaining why things are the way they are. All matter is made up of tiny particules. How does this prove God doesn't exist? The Earth orbits around the Sun. Again, how does this prove there is no God? Obviously, anything God did with his powers would have a science behind it. If the world was flat, there would be a science explaining that. If we were given the ability to spit fire from our mouthes, there would be a science explaining that too.
Obviously God's power can be explained through science. Humans made up the term science anyways. What does it honestly mean anyway.
My point is there is no conflict between science and religion because science would exist whether God existed or not.

Shival 01-Jan-2003 21:01

Wow this is going to be a long post...
 
Mistajames has presented several fascinating arugements that I will address one by one:

First I'd like to group all your arguements together and respond by saying: Your choice of arguementation is an incorrect form. You use LOGIC which is a type of arguementation that is archaic at BEST in one of the cutting edge philosophical questions? Does God exsist?

I'd like to mention right off the bat that I will also be using logic to ATTEMPT to show how logic in and of itself is flawed, because I highly doubt anyone here will take me at my word when I claim that logic is an archaic tool of the past "Modern Age".

Second I'd like to group all your arguements together and respond by saying: You are attempting to understand something that by DEFFINITION CANNOT BE UNDERSTOOD. If God were Omniscent, Omnipotent, Omnipresent, Totally Good, blah blah blah whatever he would be in a state of constant contridiction there are thousands of "Proofs against God"

My favorate orgininated in Greece and was written by none other than a "Pagan" the Catholic Church decided to throw thier lot in with: Plato.

This arguement is called the Euthyphro Arguement because it was between Plato and a student of his Euthyphro. Euth claimed that the gods existed and orgininating out of a discussion of what is pious and what is impious Plato gave the following argument with a few things assumed at the start:

1. God is All Good
2. God is All Powerful
3. God is All Knowing

If we assume the following things are true about God we will find out we are WRONG. This is how the arguement goes.

1. An Action is morally right because God Commands it to be right and as such it is right OR An Action is right SO God commands it to be right.

(An action could be right independent of what God says and God simply tells us what is right [he IS All Knowing after all])

(The Divine Command Theory claims that "Thou Shalt not kill" must be followed BECAUSE God commands it)

DIVINE COMMAND THEORY

2. If an action is right BECAUSE God commands it God commanding an action to be right is what makes it right.

3a. If God's Commands make an action right there is no moral standard by which to evaluate God. (Since whatever he does is right)

4a. God cannot be said to be All Good (Or Good at all)

3b. If God's Commands make an action right morality is arbitrary.

4b. If morality is arbitrary God could command us to do what we would view as morally despisable actions (Murder, Rape, Torture) and they would be "Good" while not doing them would be "Bad"

5b. If morality is arbitrary morality is mutable and as such we can never be certain ANYTHING we do is right or wrong because "Ignorance of the Law is not an excuse" so if we do some "Good" action it may be bad and since God no longer gives out sets of commandments (or does he?) we can never know for certain if what we do is good or bad.

DIVINE INSPIRATION THEORY

2. If an action is right independant of God (I.E. God tells us to do things because they are right independant of him) there must be a standard of morality independant of God.

3. If there is a standard of morality independant of God God's actions are RESTRICTED by him being all-good. (He can't lie, cheat, steal, murder, torture, rape, covet ect)

4. If God is restricted in any way is he NOT all powerful.

Conclusion: God CANNOT be both all-good AND all-powerful.

Now at this point all you athiests, agnostics, and people that DON'T believe in a God like the one I described at the start are probably nodding your heads and saying:
"Good Job! This proof is easy to udnerstand and flawless now I can just explain that and I'll be set"

However there is a flaw: I DEFINED WHAT GOD WAS!

Most Christians today would see no problem with saying anything about God along the lines of "Oh well God is good" or "God is all-knowing" or "God watches me all the time"

The problem with this is that due to the fact that language is a symbol it cannot express true meaning. If I were to say to you: I have an apple in my hand. You would visualize and apple, this apple is the "perfect apple". Now that I have written a bit about your thinking of this apple it may have changed forms, it may no longer be the "perfect apple" but rather it might have a soft spot, or now rather than being a red apple it might be green or yellow. The point is the word "Apple" isn't descriptive enough. Thats why we have adjectives you might say! The problem is that adj. also fall horribly short when it comes to defineing and conceptualizing an object. When I say a red, shiney, fresh, apple that is about the size of a fist, has one hole that a worm is living in, you might have a good idea of what I mean by the apple. BUT YOU DO NOT KNOW EXACTLY THE SAME APPLE THAT I KNOW. The amount of possible apples that can be pictured in your mind are less but there are still variations. My apple that I pictured was the size of MY fist was yours the same size? You say: Well thats why we have measurements. If you were to be scientific and quantify the apple I would have been able to picture the exact apple. STILL NOT TRUE! My shade of red if different than yours, the texture of the apple in my mind is different than yours, the SMELL of my apple is different than yours. All these factors can be addressed but inevitably there is something I am leaving out and no matter how great your grasp of the English language (or any language for that matter) there is a certain degree of UNCERTAINTY.

How much greater is this uncertainty when taken to the level of the abstract? What happens when I say a word like:
Love, Truth, Good, Evil, or GOD. It is not in your or my capacity to understand these concepts except on a personal, subjective level. Any individual's understanding of the concept of God is going to be unique to themselves. To some extent society will try to define God by claiming that he is

"a red, shiney, fresh, God that is about the size of a fist, and has one hole that a worm is living in"

You are MAKING AN ASSUMPTION about the nature of God which you CANNOT do. You might say "Well The Bible TELL me so"

Bullcrap. The Bible doesn't tell you any deffinate facts as the West has been so foolish in thinking. When a person says "You must take the Bible literally, word for word" you should pity that person, because they think that God is a farmer, a rock, the Word, a prince, insubstantial, a father, a son, a dove, and many other things.

"Oh please oh great Rock pound my enemies"

This is not "The God" of the Christians.

Any Christian would tell you "No that was a metaphor" or "That was a parable Jesus didn't ACTUALLY mean that you had to...blah blah blah" Yet that same Christian will claim that "Of course the world was created in 7 days that isn't a metaphor"

The Bible cannot be used to determine pure truth. However it CAN be used to see truth as a person sees a reflection of themselves in a mirror. In the same way I cannot tell you what God is. If I do I am guilty of limiting him. The one thing that I can say about God is that you can talk indirectly about her and find truth in that, much like what I have done here.

Now that I have said all that (which SHOULD answer all your arguements) I'll go through and answer them individually.

1. "It is a simple, utter fact that spontanious generation does not exist in this universe."

This seems the crux of the arguement that you present here in point one. You seem quite foolish for even mentioning this fact. Theories like "The Big Bang" and ANY scientific theory that is out there ALWAYS have SOMETHING starting everything. Be it energy, matter, or SOMETHING else. You are no different than the people who believe in God. Explain how your belief (which you did not provide) is any differant than the one by which you "disproved".

This arguement beautifully illustrates my point of how logic cannot be used to explain truth. Logic is truth PRESERVEING it is NOT truth creating (or finding).

Lets say you have some big hot shot scientific theory. Lets call it "Bad Ass theory 4"

Bad Ass theory 4 claims that the universe started from event A.

The question that logically follows is what caused event A to occur?

But don't worry Bad Ass Theory 4 has an answer!

Event B!

The question that logically follows is what caused event B to occur?

But don't worry Bad Ass Theory 4 has an answer!

Event C!

The question that logically follows is what caused event C to occur?

But don't worry Bad Ass Theory 4 has an answer!

Event D!

As you can see Bad Ass Theory 4 no matter how many answers it provides, no matter how many explanations it gives, even if it can answer EVERY QUESTION EVER PRESENTED TO IT EVER. Cannot account for the "start" of the universe.
You know why? Because there wasn't one. You claim yourself that the Ex Nihilo principle is true:

"utter fact that spontanious generation does not exist in this universe"

Something cannot come from nothing.

As a result SOMETHING must have always been present. I would contend that that something is God, however that doesn't follow with nessicity. In summery your first point is negated.

2. "The human body shows no symptoms of having a "soul.""

*sigh* The soul arguement is based on the Christian concept of a soul. A soul may or may not exist (I personally believe that it DOES) but it has absolutly positivly no relivence on whether God does, or does not exist.

Blah blah blah *insert irrelevant scientific data here*
"All these pieces of evidence are true, proven facts, and cannot be disputed without having other scientific (not religious or archiological) evidence."

Ok... and your point is. Sounds like you rambled even more than I did above. :) Oh ya and coincidentally this is a strawman arguement, having a soul has nothing to do with emotion, mental capacity, or brain function.

Shival 01-Jan-2003 21:02

Continuation
 
3.
"Thirdly, sociologically speaking, the human race would develop at least one or more systems of beliefs over the course of our history in order to explain the oddities that occured in people's lives... Once again, these are all facts that cannot be ignored."

My my my you certainly are one to present arguements that have no bearing on the discussion whatsoever. ONCE AGAIN you are talking about religion which has ABSOLUTLY POSITIVLY NOTHING to do with the existance of God or lack there of. Not only that but this is a post hoc arguement.

4. "A great deal of the "holy scripture" of religions is total bull" First of all you are assuming improperly that "Holy scripture" gives a direct look at Truth. I explained why this is incorrect above cross apply the information about symbolism in language. Secondly you have once again claimed that without religion God cannot exist you have blurred the line between God and relgion and you cannot do so. They are NOT the same thing. Even if Christianity is a bunch of bull it doesn't mean that God is. In fact even if you went and disproved every religion in the world that wouldn't disprove ANYTHING about God. As my arguement above explains humans by there very nature misinterpret objective facts and language. EVERYTHING is subjective EVERYTHING is individual.

5. "Finally, the "God" that so many people believe in is a total utter hypocrite."

You claim this however I explained above why defining what God is and does, why he does it, and what it means are all pointless endevors only designed to answer the unanswerable. You CANNOT DEFINE GOD. You CANNOT CLAIM GOD IS A HYPOCRITE. You CANNOT CLAIM GOD IS NOT A HYPOCRITE. God is that which cannot be defined.

"But it is annoying when someone believes in something, but doesn't put up any valid arguments, or they state that "If you can't tell me how something happens than that proves that my God is the reason for it.""

It seems that you did just that.

I look forward to your response,

Shival Darkeyes student of Philosophy, Theology, Logic, History, and Politics.

PS- I appologize for my horrid spelling and occasionally poor grammer. My English skills aren't what they should be, I am more of an oral debator.

Elan SsM 01-Jan-2003 21:44

Quote:

(Originally posted by ZeroGenesis)

Ok, I'm a Christian, I believe in God, and all that stuff :)

I believe the bible is 100% accurate, barring difficulties in translation and places where language used it metaphor.

And I just don't like the big bang theory. Too illogical:
- First there was nothing. Then it exploded -
does not go make logical sense...
Um.. as if the Creation Theory makes more sense?

The Creation Theory, Simplified-
"First there was this guy. He made everything. He talked to some people from flaming bushes. He let humanity nail his son to a tree. Than he walked away, except to occasionally stop by to talk into the heads of crazy people."



God just doesn't make that much sense. There is no evidence in his favor. And for someone who wants people to worship him, he's not terribly proactive when it comes to giving out evidence of his exsistense.

Little Kid Izzy 01-Jan-2003 21:47

I can only say two things:
1.Damm.
2.Can you coach me for debate? :D
I'm telling this to Shival.

shadeslinger 01-Jan-2003 21:51

I posted a response similar to the one I will post here in another thread but it seems appropriate.
First I have to say that when it comes to Truth there can only be one Truth by definition for if one thing is Truth then all other options are false. I do believe in absolute Truth and God.
As far as religion and God are concerned well there are only 2 choices: Either one religion is True or all religions are false because all religions have different doctrines and views on who God or Gods are or is.
That being said you have to weigh the evidence of a particular religion to determine if it is true or false.
Those that are anti-religion, atheist or agnostic will usually go quickly to the conlusion that all religions are false. However you cannot just arbitrarily make that judgement. You have to weigh and research the evidence to determine the Truth. I have also heard preposterous statements like "I have to know with 100% certainty that God exists". The fact is there is very little if anything that can be proven with 100% certainty. However things can be shown to be true by an overwhelming collection of evidence and facts.
How many skeptics of God believe Socrates lived or that it may have rained yesterday 500 miles away from where you lived? Think about it.

Little Kid Izzy 01-Jan-2003 21:53

I believed it rained 500 miles away because people saw it rain 500 miles a way, and because you know that rain occurs five hundred miles away, and if I went there, it would rain sometime if I stayed for awhile. I can prove that. I won't believe in god until I have more proof than disproof.

Shival 01-Jan-2003 22:06

I agree with you Shadeslinger 100%

I think what Mr. Shade is trying to say Izzy is that in the same way that God/Jesus/insert religous thing here happened in the past and as such there is some disbelief as to if it really occured. This sort of thing is common.

Shadeslinger brought up the point of Did Socrates exist? I mean we don't have any writings BY him all we have is the writings of a disciple of his: Plato. Plato claimed that Socrates made all sorts of brilliant philosophical points. (The Euthypro arguement for example was ACTUALLY said by Socrates but Plato wrote it down and slapped his name on the cover of the book) In case you are curious it is in a little book called "The Republic" (brilliant book), anyway we don't know Socrates existed any more than Jesus did however the "FACTS" as many people like to call them point to the fact that he DID in fact exist Plato didn't just make him up. In the same way the facts point to the fact that Jesus exists. If you don't believe me here I would recommend "The Case for Christ" it is a very good book. Another book called "Mere Christianity" by C.S. Lewis is very good. (I'd suggest The Case for Christ though)

Oh ya, thanks for the compliment I actually am on the Debate team at my college I visit the Utopia forums to brush up on my skills of lack there of. I just started debating this year and I have been doing fairly well (they bumped my from Novice to J-V)

I await your response,

Shival Darkeyes- Student of Philosophy, Theology, Logic, History, and Politics

Little Kid Izzy 01-Jan-2003 22:29

Quote:

(Originally posted by Shival)

I agree with you Shadeslinger 100%

I think what Mr. Shade is trying to say Izzy is that in the same way that God/Jesus/insert religous thing here happened in the past and as such there is some disbelief as to if it really occured. This sort of thing is common.

Shadeslinger brought up the point of Did Socrates exist? I mean we don't have any writings BY him all we have is the writings of a disciple of his: Plato. Plato claimed that Socrates made all sorts of brilliant philosophical points. (The Euthypro arguement for example was ACTUALLY said by Socrates but Plato wrote it down and slapped his name on the cover of the book) In case you are curious it is in a little book called "The Republic" (brilliant book), anyway we don't know Socrates existed any more than Jesus did however the "FACTS" as many people like to call them point to the fact that he DID in fact exist Plato didn't just make him up. In the same way the facts point to the fact that Jesus exists. If you don't believe me here I would recommend "The Case for Christ" it is a very good book. Another book called "Mere Christianity" by C.S. Lewis is very good. (I'd suggest The Case for Christ though)

Oh ya, thanks for the compliment I actually am on the Debate team at my college I visit the Utopia forums to brush up on my skills of lack there of. I just started debating this year and I have been doing fairly well (they bumped my from Novice to J-V)

I await your response,

Shival Darkeyes- Student of Philosophy, Theology, Logic, History, and Politics
I'm not saying Jesus doesn't exist, I'm saying god doesn't exist. There is a difference.

Shival 01-Jan-2003 22:38

What proof do you have that he doesn't exist?

It would be foolish to make a statement that something DOES NOT exist when you have no proof to back the statement up, isn't that the main problem most people claim with believing that there IS a God?

Little Kid Izzy 01-Jan-2003 22:44

1.If god is all powerful, all-loving, yet comdemms people to the bottom pits of hell, isn't that hypocritical?
2.God's existance comes in a form of a book. I mean, shessh, that's kind of not good source.
3.Why should everything that can't be explained in life be,"It's god's will." I find that stupid.

Shival, I basically have no real concrete proof that he doesn't exist, My goal in these kind of discussions is to proof to religious peole that are soo devoted that they are blind, that there is no actual proof for their god. I'm not a religious person, and I as sure as hell do not do good in religious debates. I rather have history debates, but since everything here has transfered to god, well, it's annoying

shadeslinger 01-Jan-2003 23:04

Which version, type, and pusblished version of the bible is 100% accurate?

Why do the gospels contradict on quotes if 100% accurate?

Why does the bible contradict in several places? Like here

Aznblade:

I disagree with your lists of contradictions and do not find them contradicting at all....I have to say I did not read all 70 or so listed but the ones I read are very easily explainable. For instance the "sign" on the cross may read different in all the gospels but they all say basically the same thing. Also Each gospel does not refute or eliminate the possibility by declaration that what was said in the other 3 was not present on the sign and therfore by definition is not a contradiction.

Shival 01-Jan-2003 23:08

I like history debates as well. :)

To respond to your arguement I am a bit disappointed...

You claimed to have read my arguement and liked it a lot but on the same token the arugement that you present me is another form of the arguement I gave as an example of what would NOT work (though yours has a lot of holes in it)

1."If god is all powerful, all-loving, yet comdemms people to the bottom pits of hell, isn't that hypocritical?"

No no no no no no no no! I explained above how calling God Hypocritical is impossible since you are defining him. I mean after all you do it quite clearly: "God is all powerful ect...) Read the post again for an answer to this.

2."God's existance comes in a form of a book. I mean, shessh, that's kind of not good source."

There are plenty other more credible sources that don't have the problem of interpretation and language symbolism issues that I spoke of above.

Want an example?

Yourself. Inside you there are forces that tell you what is right and what is wrong. These forces may not match up with what you might think of as the Christian tradition but they still exist. Some might say this is a result of society and that morality is dictated by society. This is a very bleak concept and in fact is moral nihlism... I might make another topic about that later if I have time.

Now also on this topic, you make the mistake of assuming that God can only exist if she is the CHRISTIAN GOD. The fact that he is based on "only a book" assumes we are talking about the Christian God. Science has a God too which I bet you believe in. She is called the "Big Bang" and when he got really condenced and blew up she spread here matter all over the universe or something something. (My knowledge on the Big Bang is not what it should be I'm not a very science orientented person) The point is even science has a God. This God is what caused everything to start, the first catalyst.

It is illogical not to believe in God.

"3.Why should everything that can't be explained in life be,"It's god's will." I find that stupid."

This statement has nothing to do with the existance or lack there of of God. It has to do with a personal belief or of those around you. If you don't like it when that is said I suggest two things:

1. Don't say it yourself, but still believe in God.
2. When someone else says it ask them: "How do you know?" if they respond by defining God tell them my arguement.

"Shival, I basically have no real concrete proof that he doesn't exist, My goal in these kind of discussions is to proof to religious peole that are soo devoted that they are blind, that there is no actual proof for their god."

If you don't have proof that God doesn't exist it does not mean that he exists I'll grant you that HOWEVER it does not mean that you have any place what-so-ever to wash your hands of the matter. If you don't try to find proof one way or another you are being lazy about the most important question of them all. Why do I exist?

I can't give you the answers. PROVING beyond a shadow of a doubt that God DOES or DOES NOT exist is very difficult (perhaps impossible) however that doesn't mean that you shouldn't try and in your journy of self-discovery you might learn that since everything here has transfered to god, well, it's important.

Shival Darkeyes- Alone with God? (Or am I?)

Little Kid Izzy 01-Jan-2003 23:15

Me, In reality, I dont' believe in god, I see him as a crutch for the weak. I don't even care to knowing if he exists to life or not, I live my life by my own principles. I have hope, love and many other things that Christians(some of them) say are given to you by god, and that without him or her, they wouldn't have them. I am sorry, but if God is suppose to exists, why is his or her existance controversial? If he or she wanted everybody to love him or her, then why doesn't that being come down here, show himself, and then people would be stupid to go against him.

Shival 01-Jan-2003 23:30

"I don't even care to knowing if he exists to life or not, I live my life by my own principles."

No you don't. There are three logical possiblities of why you live your life.

1. You live the way you do because a combination of biological and environmental factors came together in such a way as now your every action is dictated for you. Thus you have no free will, it is an illusion.

2. You live the way you do because of how God has created you. (Same are above) God knows exactly what you are going to do the second he created you and as a result the second matter, energy, and everything else were created God knew how you were going to react to the environment and how you would be made up biologically. Every action is dictated for you. You have no free will, it is an illusion.

3. You live the way you do because a moral force of spiritual and divine combination (God?) allows you to feel what is right and what is wrong. You then have a choice as to follow this force or to deny it. Free will is a very real thing.

"I have hope, love and many other things that Christians(some of them) say are given to you by god, and that without him or her, they wouldn't have them."

Perhaps you do have God in you, you just simply fail to realize that he is there. After all why DO you claim that hope, love, and "many other things" are good?

"I am sorry, but if God is suppose to exists, why is his or her existance controversial?"

Just because something is not agreed upon does not mean it does not exist. People didn't think the holocaust was happening, and yet it was. Sometimes that which we do not want to believe is happening or is, is the very thing that is certain. This arguement is an appeal to popularity.

"If X doesn't believe it, it must not be true"

This arguement type is a fallacy.

"If he or she wanted everybody to love him or her, then why doesn't that being come down here, show himself, and then people would be stupid to go against him."

You are making assumptions about what God wants. Lets look at what you just said:

"Why should everything that can't be explained in life be,"It's god's will." I find that stupid."

You are claiming it is God's will that people love him.
So to you I say:

"How do you know?"

Shival Darkeyes- I believe in God

mistajames 02-Jan-2003 01:29

First of all, the big bang theory is the theory of matter expanding. (viscoscity lessens dramatically, but volume greatly increases. It doesn't add or subtract matter.) This means matter is finite, and also means that time is infinite, and is a very viable and believable theory when compared to the traditional, "God creates the world because he feels like it. It is the centre of the universe, and we are the greatest creation on the planet. All this was created for us and us alone" routine. (this is my own theory, not text-book stuff) Since spontanious generation (the creation of a physical substance from nothingness) doesn't exist, God could not have created anything from nothingness and, therefore, the "God" that you speak of cannot exist. And nothing was needed to shape the universe. Since matter is constantly moving, things would eventually shape to what they are now.

(relating to the majority of religions)
People do not have souls; only electrical impulses reacting with brain cells. The energy from the brain dissipates and moves through the air to a physical substance when a person dies. Therefore, there can be no "heaven" or "hell."

It is relevant that people would create an imaginary supreme being through the course of time. This gives a very suitable motive to the creation of "God." The idea of God is so controversial because most people would rather believe that they are being taken care of by a supreme being than actually face the facts of our universe.

These facts are real, concrete evidence that prove beyond even a shadow of a doubt that "God" does not exist. Geez, Santa Claus has more of a chance of existing than God does.

ton4052 02-Jan-2003 01:59

here are my points...

knowing that God exist...we have a purpose...
knowing that God doesn't exist...we don't have a purpose...

if we are evolute from a bunch of cells by accident...then our purpose of life is by accident, therefore lets all die...but no...

we all have a soul...a mind to think...to do and not to do. if we do not...we are pretty much like animals who basic thinking is to eat and live...or Darwin theory of survival of the fittest...

why do have emotions...why can we think steal, kill, or GB on a province is wrong...hehe...because we have a mind...we know it is not right...how do you explains "electrical impulses" with emotions?...animals also have "electrical impulses"...

and God is holy...yes He is also love but only those believe...He is holy because he dislike evil...therefore He can send those who don't believe to hell.

beside i don't want to be those people who condemn those who don't believe...i am just living my life pleasing Him and just telling eveybody that i could that i believe in Him...it is your choice whether or not you wanna believe...not mine...

skinner94 02-Jan-2003 01:59

does it matter???

me? i don't care if there is one or not, so basically no.

Shival 02-Jan-2003 02:00

Woah there Mr. Contradiction
 
"Since spontanious generation (the creation of a physical substance from nothingness) doesn't exist, God could not have created anything from nothingness and, therefore, the "God" that you speak of cannot exist. And nothing was needed to shape the universe. Since matter is constantly moving, things would eventually shape to what they are now."

If something cannot come from nothing where did matter come from? The point is you havn't answered the question how was the universe created.

"(relating to the majority of religions)
People do not have souls; only electrical impulses reacting with brain cells. The energy from the brain dissipates and moves through the air to a physical substance when a person dies. Therefore, there can be no "heaven" or "hell.""

There being a heaven or a hell is in no way dependant on God existing or not existing. Even if heaven or hell DID exist it would not prove the existance of God. In the same way there NOT being a heaven or a hell does not DISPROVE the existance of God.

Also a Soul could easily be something that is unquantifyable and unqualifyable. You claiming that it is an electrical impulse is not only presumptous, but it also assumes that you are all-knowing. You are saying because electrical impulses exist souls do not. This does not follow.

"It is relevant that people would create an imaginary supreme being through the course of time. This gives a very suitable motive to the creation of "God." The idea of God is so controversial because most people would rather believe that they are being taken care of by a supreme being than actually face the facts of our universe."

Motive is irrelevant if proof of non-existance can't be given. Even if I would get 15 million dollars to kill the person I hated the most in the world and I knew for sure I would not be caught, it doesn't mean that I killed that person. In fact motive has nothing to do with what actually happened, simply if there is no motive it is unlikly that something would occur. Thus your discussion of the motive behind the crime of believing in God is irrelevent.

"These facts are real, concrete evidence that prove beyond even a shadow of a doubt that "God" does not exist. Geez, Santa Claus has more of a chance of existing than God does."

What facts? I fail to see one piece of factual evidence anywhere in any of your posts that says anything about the exisistance of God.

Also if there is anything that is nebulous about my post I'm sure I already addressed it in my post above where I explain to you why each and every one of your reasons were incorrect.

"Geez, Santa Claus has more of a chance of existing than God does."

Could you explain how you reached this conclusion? You give no facts to support this declaration, unlike what you claim. In fact, you are simply discrediting yourself by making silly comments like that.

If I wanted to I could say:

"Wow you are such a moron, you big idiot, why can't you see what I am saying? If your head wasn't so far up your butt maybe you would understand you havn't answered a thing I said"

But then I would just be committing the same poor arguement form as you: Offencive Arguementation based on assertion with no proof.

Shival Darkeyes: Awaiting your response civily

ton4052 02-Jan-2003 02:05

amen shivel...bro...or sis...hehe :lol

Shival 02-Jan-2003 02:09

"knowing that God exist...we have a purpose...
knowing that God doesn't exist...we don't have a purpose..."

This does not prove or disprove that God exists however if things are a toss up with no way what-so-ever to tell one way or another if God exists or not I suppose you could make a if I'm wrong we are screwed arguement. Really this is just a poor excuse though.

"if we are evolute from a bunch of cells by accident...then our purpose of life is by accident, therefore lets all die...but no...
we all have a soul...a mind to think...to do and not to do. if we do not...we are pretty much like animals who basic thinking is to eat and live...or Darwin theory of survival of the fittest..."

We could have evolved and God could still exist. Don't limit God by saying he or she couldn't have used Evolution.

"why do have emotions...why can we think steal, kill, or GB on a province is wrong...hehe...because we have a mind...we know it is not right...how do you explains "electrical impulses" with emotions?...animals also have "electrical impulses"..."

Why? Random chance is certainly an answer that is perfectly acceptable. Animals also have emotions.

"and God is holy...yes He is also love but only those believe...He is holy because he dislike evil...therefore He can send those who don't believe to hell."

You are defining and limiting God by saying these things. Don't do that, every time you do you are painting yourself into a corner. Read my post above about defining God. It is a long one.

"beside i don't want to be those people who condemn those who don't believe...i am just living my life pleasing Him and just telling eveybody that i could that i believe in Him...it is your choice whether or not you wanna believe...not mine..."

I agree, however as a believe in the Truth you need to activly attempt to show others this truth as well, if you don't you are lazy. As a result you need to sharpen your skills, learn what you believe and go out and show the world what you know. If you are wrong then so be it. You will learn in the process.

"does it matter???
me? i don't care if there is one or not, so basically no."

Its sad that you don't care about something as important as why you exist.

Shival Darkeyes

Shival 02-Jan-2003 02:14

I'm a guy :).

Thanks for the support. If you are interested in this topic I suggest you page back two pages and read my long post.

Shival Darkeyes

skinner94 02-Jan-2003 02:14

Quote:

Its sad that you don't care about something as important as why you exist.
are u mocking me??? serisouly, can u really justify living life by saying "god created me and my purpose is to serve him/her!" i can't.

btw, what's ur reason?

lemonez 02-Jan-2003 02:16

Very Good Understanding of Stephen Hawkings Theory
 
This is very correct, to be created at the beginning of time, before matter or even spaces was big enough to contain a human, a God-like creature to make an universe is impossible and he or she would have nothing to do. The 'God' would have to operations while compressed in the big crunch, because outside of this mass of matter is nothing, not even space. It is a hard concept to grasp, humans are only 4D, not allowing us to comprehend this, yet facts, knowledge, classical and modern physics allow this to be a logic theory. As humans evolve further, religion will be dissmissed, and any part of religon left will be in the form of customs. God is a made up character, used in very confusing parts of your life, to find your meaning, the worlds meaning, why we are here, or why anything is here.

If you want a god, you are him or her. You have all the answers, if they are good ones or logical ones are for you to decide. A mass religion is never the best one for you, it is like thinking a product is better because someone told you so.

I'm not against any religion, I believe what I want to, no one can change that, I can't change that about you either. The point of this post is just to make you think, if you sit down and think of the most uncomprehendable subjects possible, you may just find the answers in which you can't find in anyone or in any other thing out there or anywhere. Look over the events in your life, in every event there is one lesson. If you piece together it all you will understand everything.

Thank You For Reading This Far,
Lemonez

Rabbousamai 02-Jan-2003 02:24

Why do people always ask for proof that god doesnt exist? You Can't proove something doesnt exist...clearly, if you are making a claim that something does exist, the responsibility is on you to proove it. Just like my invisibile eight-legged elephant...can you proove it doesnt exist?

Little Kid Izzy 02-Jan-2003 02:33

Quote:

(Originally posted by Shival)

"I don't even care to knowing if he exists to life or not, I live my life by my own principles."

No you don't. There are three logical possiblities of why you live your life.

1. You live the way you do because a combination of biological and environmental factors came together in such a way as now your every action is dictated for you. Thus you have no free will, it is an illusion.

2. You live the way you do because of how God has created you. (Same are above) God knows exactly what you are going to do the second he created you and as a result the second matter, energy, and everything else were created God knew how you were going to react to the environment and how you would be made up biologically. Every action is dictated for you. You have no free will, it is an illusion.

3. You live the way you do because a moral force of spiritual and divine combination (God?) allows you to feel what is right and what is wrong. You then have a choice as to follow this force or to deny it. Free will is a very real thing.

"I have hope, love and many other things that Christians(some of them) say are given to you by god, and that without him or her, they wouldn't have them."

Perhaps you do have God in you, you just simply fail to realize that he is there. After all why DO you claim that hope, love, and "many other things" are good?

"I am sorry, but if God is suppose to exists, why is his or her existance controversial?"

Just because something is not agreed upon does not mean it does not exist. People didn't think the holocaust was happening, and yet it was. Sometimes that which we do not want to believe is happening or is, is the very thing that is certain. This arguement is an appeal to popularity.

"If X doesn't believe it, it must not be true"

This arguement type is a fallacy.

"If he or she wanted everybody to love him or her, then why doesn't that being come down here, show himself, and then people would be stupid to go against him."

You are making assumptions about what God wants. Lets look at what you just said:

"Why should everything that can't be explained in life be,"It's god's will." I find that stupid."

You are claiming it is God's will that people love him.
So to you I say:

"How do you know?"

Shival Darkeyes- I believe in God
1.You are basing that i have free will or no free will because of god? His existance is questionable, yet you want want to say everything around us is because of him?
2.Why is it that god has to be in me to be able to feel this things? I mean, does it have to be god that made me feel this way? I feel this way because of what I have done to feel this way. I claim that love, hope, etc are good because that is what has helped me survived.
3.Your anology with the Holocaust doesn't work because there was proof that it was happening, people just didn't want to believe it. If you somehow could fly over Germany controlled areas, then you would see proof.
4.I'm making assumptions on what he wants based on what I hear.
5.By god's will, I mean that this is what he suppodely wanted to happen, like when people get ouf ot coma's and stuff. Many people say,"God did this!." simply because they have no other explanation.
6.Is it so wrong not to care how we came about? I rather not ponder on that instead think about how can I advance myself.

Shival 02-Jan-2003 02:43

You cannot prove to me that anything exists or that anything doesn't exist, everything is based on probability. If you can find anything that you can prove beyond a shadow of a doubt I will comend you.

Descartes did it.

1. Something thinks. (You have to to reason this)
2. To think the thing must be a thing.
3. There is a thinking thing.

Thus: I think therefore I am.

Beyond this fact nothing can be prove.

That is why probability exists. It is NOT probable that if I am to walk over to my dresser the earth will open up an swallow me, however it is probable that I will get over to my dresser.

Do I KNOW the earth will not open up? No.
Do I KNOW that God exists? No.

Does probability suggest that the earth will not open up? Yes.
Does probability suggest that God exists? Yes.

Read books like "The Case for Christ" they will show you probablistically speaking that God exists.

So you say prove your elephant doesn't exist.

I say: Prove ANYTHING.

Shival Darkeyes

Rabbousamai 02-Jan-2003 02:59

A basic argument against god (which has been mentioned above) is that IF he is all knowing, all powerful, and all good, why is there evil in the world? If there is evil in the world, then clearly either god doesn't know about it, he cant do anything about it, or he doesn't want to do anything about it. All of these possibilities lead to one of the three assumptions about god being incorrect

This is a pretty solid argument, and the only possible refutation that anyone has managed to come up with is that the assumptions are incorrect. Therefore, there is something incorrect in the God definition, ie he isnt all powerful, all knowing, and all good, or that evil doesnt actually exist. All powerful and All knowing are pretty easy and universal to concieve...he can do anything and knows everything. All good is usually the sticking point, ie what is actually good has a bit of a gap when compared with what individuals concieve as good.

For people who argue along the lines of 'you are defining god'...Firstly, if god cannont be defined, he is merely the same sort of thing as any other abstract noun, such as good, happiness, joy, sadness etc...god is merely a feeling you experience from undergoing certain religious rites. Thats all very well, except it basically leads to the conclusion that god is much the same thing as happiness, sadness, anger etc, ie god is a phycological state experienced by people.
While it may be that defining god as all powerful, all knowing, and all good may leave gaps in interpretation, this explanation for the existance of god has a few problems.

Nobody has yet addressed the issue that god is not all powerful, knowing, and good.
1) IF god exists, AND the commandments in the bible represent goodness, AND God has broken his own commandments, THEN there are three possible conclusions:
---> God doesnt exist.
---> The comandments are inaccurate.
---> God hasnt broken his own commandments
Either God has killed people, or the bible is inaccurate...im happy with either explanation. Can anyone find a hole in that argument?
It may be negated by saying that What is right and wrong is described by god, i.e. murder is right if god condones it. Obviously however, this falls into the hole of the 'arbitary morality' thing.

Another thing...ALL POWERFUL. That doesnt leave much room for interpretation. ALL KNOWING. That doesn't either. ALL GOOD....well, that has some problems. lets look at the commandments. If they are a basis for doing what is right (and any christain will tell you that they are), then clearly breaking them is wrong. Time for another logic exercise...

1) The commandments more or less represent 'good'
2) The commandments are frequently broken.
3) Breaking the commandments is wrong
Therefore (1,2,3) Wrongness exists.
A) God exists
B) God does not want wrongness/evil
C) God is all powerful and all knowing, hence knows about evil and can do something about it, and all good, hence wants to do something about it.
D) God doesn't do much about it.
Clearly, A,B,C and D cannot all be true. Which one is not?

Hurleyy 02-Jan-2003 03:00

You cannot prove anything. Everything has a bias you are factoring in.

We all see colors. How do we know the colors we see, are actually the colors that are there?

There is no way to prove or disprove a God. So this discussion can go on forever, until a god shows himself to us.

Shival 02-Jan-2003 03:01

Quote:

(Originally posted by Digi Kid Izzy)

1.You are basing that i have free will or no free will because of god? His existance is questionable, yet you want want to say everything around us is because of him?
I am saying there are three possiblities for the area of Free Will. The first is that there is no God and you have no free will.

The second is that there is a God and there is no free will.

The third is that there is a God and there is free will.

Quote:

(Originally posted by Digi Kid Izzy)
2.Why is it that god has to be in me to be able to feel this things? I mean, does it have to be god that made me feel this way? I feel this way because of what I have done to feel this way. I claim that love, hope, etc are good because that is what has helped me survived.
For there to be a right or a wrong there has to be a standard by which to judge actions by. If there is no moral standard all actions are equally good and equally bad. Or more accuratly all actions are not good or bad. I contend that morality comes from God working inside us, we have a direct relationship with God. This relationship is a relationship that cannot be talked about, in fact this poor discription I have given of it doesn't do it justice. Words are symbols that are improper reflections of the true ideal.

You give me what you believe (this is good I can comment more specifically then) that is I believe what I believe because it increases my chances of survival. I disagree with you. I think the APPEARANCE of the virtues you described but NOT ACTUALLY having them is what would increase your chances of survival. If you think "goodness" will help you survive you are mistaken. In the business world those who help others out and are "good" usually do not do as well as those who stab others in the back. However those who SEEM like trustworthy individuals are the ones who do the best.
Quote:

(Originally posted by Digi Kid Izzy)
3.Your anology with the Holocaust doesn't work because there was proof that it was happening, people just didn't want to believe it. If you somehow could fly over Germany controlled areas, then you would see proof.
You are right my analogy was poor. Rather lets take someone like oh... Homer from the past the writer of the Odyssey. Homer is disputed. Or lets take Socretes as was suggested above.

You cannot know for sure that anything in the past happened because there are no living witnesses. Anything can be government propaganda or something like that. Nothing is PROVABLE.
Quote:

(Originally posted by Digi Kid Izzy)
4.I'm making assumptions on what he wants based on what I hear.
Understandable, they are wrong for saying what they say. We can drop this point now since we both know we are not talking about that.

Quote:

(Originally posted by Digi Kid Izzy)
5.By god's will, I mean that this is what he suppodely wanted to happen, like when people get ouf ot coma's and stuff. Many people say,"God did this!." simply because they have no other explanation.
That bothers me as well thats why I don't do it.

Quote:

(Originally posted by Digi Kid Izzy)
6.Is it so wrong not to care how we came about? I rather not ponder on that instead think about how can I advance myself.
No I suppose not. :) I love these sort of questions. I think that anyone who doesn't try and answer them is doing themselves a great diservice.

Shival Darkeyes

AznBlade 02-Jan-2003 03:06

Quote:

(Originally posted by Treaky)

To reply to your questions AznBlade.

For one thing i think several times you only took a small section of what somone wrote and left the rest out that would explain their views.

I couldnt find the exact verse but the bible talks about accountablity and young children and those who have not heared of christ would not be held accountable and would have there own place in heaven.

Jews: If you are talking about jew as a race then it is the same as all other races each individual just has to make the decision, but if you are talking about the jewish religion then no unless they have been saved thru Jesus.

Agnositics: ignoring something doesnt mean it isnt there so they would be in the same boat.

All people who profess to be christian are not necessarly christian themselves. Someone just say they are because there friends or family are. But the God doesnt call us to be luke warm. The alsobible doesnt say to mock or scorn nonbeleivers, or any body. I am not perfect and dont deserve a place in heaven but Jesus has payed my way and yours. I am only 16 but I know what I believe, I have seen people who go to church and fca or what ever then talk trash to some geek or freak. God has love for everyone my own friends are largly not christian and I dont conform to secular things and they accept me.

It doesnt matter if you killed Billy Graham God would still forgive you and works alone will not buy you a ticket into heaven.
So then doesn't that make God unjust? If was born before Jesus, they're eternally screwed, yet have no control over it. It works the same for someone born in a buddhist community. Also, why would being a Jew be not have any merit? Afterall, wasn't Jesus himself a devout Jew?
-=-=-=--=-=-=-=-
Quote:

Why do people always ask for proof that god doesnt exist? You Can't proove something doesnt exist...clearly, if you are making a claim that something does exist, the responsibility is on you to proove it. Just like my invisibile eight-legged elephant...can you proove it doesnt exist?
You can't. Your point? It may or may not exist, but you can't support it either way.
-=-=--=-=-=-
Quote:

1. You live the way you do because a combination of biological and environmental factors came together in such a way as now your every action is dictated for you. Thus you have no free will, it is an illusion.
And those factors are stimuli. Yet, you can choose to interpret that in different ways and react in different ways. I can put my hand into a burning flame, but I choose not to because of the heat of the fire.
Quote:

2. You live the way you do because of how God has created you. (Same are above) God knows exactly what you are going to do the second he created you and as a result the second matter, energy, and everything else were created God knew how you were going to react to the environment and how you would be made up biologically. Every action is dictated for you. You have no free will, it is an illusion.
My interpretation may be different from yours. I see it as God knows the possibility of every action you do. You have a choice to jump off a cliff or not. God knows what will happen if you do, but also if you didn't. You still have free will to do it or not.
-=-=-=-=-=-
Quote:

Religion=fiction
Science=fact
There was a quote similar to that posted earlier.

Question- Why is religion fiction?

Shival 02-Jan-2003 03:06

Quote:

(Originally posted by Rabbousamai)

A basic argument against god (which has been mentioned above) is that IF he is all knowing, all powerful, and all good, why is there evil in the world? Ect.
Finally someone who has a logical arguement! This is wonderful. I want to respond to you point by point, line by line but right now I have to go. When I come back I'll do so. Most of the stuff you spoke about was from my post so if you want read it over again I'll be referring to it a lot when I come back.

Thanks in advance.

It's always a pleasure arugeing with someone who knows logic.

Shival Darkeyes- Pressed for time

PS If you know of any articles on Russian United States relations that came out in the past 60 days I would be very happy if you PMed the site that you saw them on. Thanks again in advance.

Rabbousamai 02-Jan-2003 03:07

While descaretes first meditations for hyperbolic doubt are all very well, there is such a thing as reasonable doubt. Of course, reasonableness is bloody vague, but thats philosophy for you :).

In any case, the overwhelming majority of the atheistic/agnostic people of the world don't believe in a god not through any sort of conviction, but because they simply see no reason to. There is insufficiant evidence to reasonably suggest that god exists, hence, atheism. I can confidantly say that if god came down here (or even sent down a few angels), the number of believers would skyrocket. There is simply not enough evidence at the moment to suggest that god exists, and many of us are more content to say "i don't know why the universe exists" than to say 'god created it', just as im sure everyone would be more content to think 'I don't know what ate my cookiee' than to think 'The invisible flying eight-legged elephant ate it'

Little Kid Izzy 02-Jan-2003 03:09

1. I'm going to put a fourth one.

No god and free will.
If I did what my enviromented wanted me to do, I'd be a jock, hating gays, and getting drunk every night whiel sleeping with women.

2.I judge things as being good or bad by how they make me feel. If it something makes me feel pain, for no reason at all, it's bad. If it makes me feel happy, it's good.
It's not the apperance of these feelings, it's having them. I was a crack baby, my dad's a drug lord. My mom neglects me, I live with my grandma. I had no love, people hated me, and hell, I had no hope. I met three people online(I posted them earlier in this thread) that gave me hope, that showed me I could be loved. They have helped me survive these troubled years. I agree that in this business world, it's not a smart thing, but they have helped me merely survive.

3.True, I'll give you that point, I ca'nt prove that socrates existed, howerver, I can give some evidence, it's more than the evidence I've received from believeing in god.

Wow, we've cut down 10 points to 6 to 3. I like these kind of discussions where I feel that I am not being discrimnated for my beliefs.

AznBlade 02-Jan-2003 03:16

Quote:

A basic argument against god (which has been mentioned above) is that IF he is all knowing, all powerful, and all good, why is there evil in the world? Ect.
Free will. People have the freedom to choose what they do. There is no clear definition to good, nor evil. It's in the eye of the beholder. An example can be 9/11. The Muslims who planned it thought they were doing good, but others may say they're evil. As long as people have the freedom to choose what they want to do, there will be some form of "evil".
-=-=--=-=-
Quote:

2.I judge things as being good or bad by how they make me feel. If it something makes me feel pain, for no reason at all, it's bad. If it makes me feel happy, it's good.
What about conscience? Things people do don't always benefit themselves and even harm themselves, but they do it to help others in need.

You say if it makes you feel happy, it's good. What exactly is good to you? Good to one person may be killing anyone not of their race and to another anything that benefits themselves.

Little Kid Izzy 02-Jan-2003 03:21

Quote:

(Originally posted by AznBlade)

Free will. People have the freedom to choose what they do. There is no clear definition to good, nor evil. It's in the eye of the beholder. An example can be 9/11. The Muslims who planned it thought they were doing good, but others may say they're evil. As long as people have the freedom to choose what they want to do, there will be some form of "evil".
-=-=--=-=-

What about conscience? Things people do don't always benefit themselves and even harm themselves, but they do it to help others in need.

You say if it makes you feel happy, it's good. What exactly is good to you? Good to one person may be killing anyone not of their race and to another anything that
benefits themselves.
I'll repeat my statement on how things are good. If it makes me feel happy and it does not hurt anyone, it is good, if it makes me feel pain and hurts people, it is bad. Simple as that. Childish logic, but logic that works. I do not believing in killing people, I do not believe in hurting peole. I wish we could live our world. in peace.

AznBlade 02-Jan-2003 03:25

Quote:

(Originally posted by Digi Kid Izzy)
I'll repeat my statement on how things are good. If it makes me feel happy and it does not hurt anyone, it is good
So, good is only what makes you feel happy? What if it makes you feel bad, but helps someone?
Quote:

, if it makes me feel pain and hurts people, it is bad. Simple as that.
What about if it makes you feel pain and hurts people, but benefits others?
Quote:

Childish logic, but logic that works. I do not believing in killing people, I do not believe in hurting peole. I wish we could live our world. in peace.
What about killing another to save another life or help someone?

There are these questions and more. Your logic is beneficial, but somewhat flawed.

Little Kid Izzy 02-Jan-2003 03:35

"sigh" I will post again.

How do I konw things are right and wrong?
If they bring pain to people who are innocent, they are wrong.
If they bring pain to people that are guilty, no matter.
If they bring goodness to people without hurting others, it's bad.
If they bring goodness to people while hurting them (parasitism) it is wrong.
If they bring goodness to people and somehow hurt people on accident, depends on the situation.

Rabbousamai 02-Jan-2003 03:40

Quote:

Free will. People have the freedom to choose what they do. There is no clear definition to good, nor evil. It's in the eye of the beholder. An example can be 9/11. The Muslims who planned it thought they were doing good, but others may say they're evil. As long as people have the freedom to choose what they want to do, there will be some form of "evil".
This is a common argument, and more or less negated by the fact that, if it is true, it implies that my right to do as i like is more important than somebody elses right to live a good life. I can go and punch somebody in the head. Why doesn't god stop me? Surely somebodies right to not be punched is stronger than my right to punch him. However, clearly god does not agree with that, as he does nothing to stop me from punching him.

AznBlade 02-Jan-2003 03:44

Quote:

(Originally posted by Rabbousamai)
This is a common argument, and more or less negated by the fact that, if it is true, it implies that my right to do as i like is more important than somebody elses right to live a good life. I can go and punch somebody in the head. Why doesn't god stop me? Surely somebodies right to not be punched is stronger than my right to punch him. However, clearly god does not agree with that, as he does nothing to stop me from punching him.
But, is the punching evil? The question was "why is there evil in the world"?

I would give an example as to why there is evil in the world as one of the parables told by Jesus, but if I try to reference the bible, people will flame me.

Rabbousamai 02-Jan-2003 03:48

Well, what if i murder him? That is surely evil...even the bible says so!

Rabbousamai 02-Jan-2003 03:50

The actual action is irrelivant. The fact of the matter is that i can do something evil, and god will not stop me, no matter the consequence for the other person. I guess you could argue that there is in fact no evil...i think it would be a pretty crappy argument though...

klemens 02-Jan-2003 04:18

Quote:

Who would be more likely to go to heaven- A good atheist who's helped the poor all his life and done good deeds, or the serial killer Christian?
before start, im a catholic n i do proud of being one :)
regarding ur question

no offense to any religions for the following statement>
wat i know, all ppl have a chance to go to heaven
but Jesus is the only way, meaning He will bring us there for sure, He guarantees that (it is on the bible). Ppl out from Christians (include those who not believe in God, etc) have a chance to go to heaven but there is no guarantee they can reach heaven

so answering ur question
the atheist might go to heaven because he has done good things, helpful n etc etc

the serial killer Christian will go to heaven IF he confess his sin by doing confession at church and of course after that he doesnt do any killing anymore and he changes his life to be a better one

but if u asking when the atheist and the serial killer Christians r dead when they still wat u said they were
the answer for the atheist still the same he MIGHT go to heaven

for the serial killer Christian of course he MIGHT go to heaven bcos by killing ppl he has refused Jesus unknowningly

shadeslinger 02-Jan-2003 05:16

Nobody has yet addressed the issue that god is not all powerful, knowing, and good.
1) IF god exists, AND the commandments in the bible represent goodness, AND God has broken his own commandments, THEN there are three possible conclusions:
---> God doesnt exist.
---> The comandments are inaccurate.
---> God hasnt broken his own commandments
Either God has killed people, or the bible is inaccurate...im happy with either explanation. Can anyone find a hole in that argument?
It may be negated by saying that What is right and wrong is described by god, i.e. murder is right if god condones it. Obviously however, this falls into the hole of the 'arbitary morality' thing.

Another thing...ALL POWERFUL. That doesnt leave much room for interpretation. ALL KNOWING. That doesn't either. ALL GOOD....well, that has some problems. lets look at the commandments. If they are a basis for doing what is right (and any christain will tell you that they are), then clearly breaking them is wrong. Time for another logic exercise...

1) The commandments more or less represent 'good'
2) The commandments are frequently broken.
3) Breaking the commandments is wrong
Therefore (1,2,3) Wrongness exists.
A) God exists
B) God does not want wrongness/evil
C) God is all powerful and all knowing, hence knows about evil and can do something about it, and all good, hence wants to do something about it.
D) God doesn't do much about it.
Clearly, A,B,C and D cannot all be true. Which one is not?

First off you are making the assumption that because there are no APPARENT consequences for sin (wrongness or evil) then God doesn't exist. This is a wrong assumption. In reference to A B C D, All are true with D having a less obvious answer.
People generally attribute their own definition of good to God. The bible states in Matthew 19 that only God is good. Well people then take that and apply the term to God using their definition of good. The fact is God is so far beyond us we will never fully comprehend His full nature....a finite being (us) cannot comprehend an infinite being (God) in totality.
The fact is God will do something about wrongness, evil and sin. At some point according to the bible God will return and the Earth will be restored and all evil and sin will be eliminated. At that point all peoples past and present will be judged accordingly. We have the choice to follow His plan or go on our own....He will not force us to worship or follow Him but rather allows us to make the choice of our own volition. Think about it, would you rather force someone to follow you or have a group of individuals follow you willingly....

It is correct that nothing can be proven to a 100% certainty but again when you look at overwhelming evidence and facts some things are far more likely than others...

chilo 02-Jan-2003 06:54

First of all, it's murder that's wrong, when killing is done in battle or similar instances it's not.
Secondly, God doesn't do anything about evil because He's given us free will, and let's us excercise it.

Rabbousamai 02-Jan-2003 07:47

Does anybody really think that there is enough evidence to support the existance of god? So far my count is that there is a book of dubious origin...the rest is faith, and a lack of alternatives.

Rabbousamai 02-Jan-2003 07:50

Quote:

First off you are making the assumption that because there are no APPARENT consequences for sin (wrongness or evil) then God doesn't exist. This is a wrong assumption. In reference to A B C D, All are true with D having a less obvious answer.
By doing something about evil, i do not refer to punishing the evil guy (which is dubious as it is), but protecting the victim.

Just Someone 02-Jan-2003 08:32

it's obvious
 
Quote:

(Originally posted by shadeslinger)


A) God exists
B) God does not want wrongness/evil
C) God is all powerful and all knowing, hence knows about evil and can do something about it, and all good, hence wants to do something about it.
D) God doesn't do much about it.
Clearly, A,B,C and D cannot all be true. Which one is not?

A is not true! :D

Makale 02-Jan-2003 09:05

*believes in many Gods (and Goddesses too)*
yay Polytheism! :cool

frezzy 02-Jan-2003 10:03

It's facinating how you people can get so interested in talking about

spirit beings and God, but when people provide you with the answer, You

stick up your nose and mock in dis-believe. What do you know about the

bible? A book about Abraham, the parting of Red Sea, King David, all

fairie tales stories to you? and King Cesar was mention because the

book is written during his reign? Scriptures which exist even till now

were carbon-dated to be hundred of years before the Birth of Christ,

Was there to tell of the Coming of the Messiah... Or do you want to

correct me, saying they were all made up? Dates were dated 'B.C' for a

reason. If you ever study about the Bible, you will know that it is

more than a book of tales. It is a book of history and prophesy. Events

were proven to have existed, lost ruins of cities were found, they all

tally with the supposed 'made-up stories' in the Bible. King

Nebucharnezzar, the Babylon Empire, Medes, Persians... All found in a

book call the Bible... And to think that each empire are around 80

years span... How can this book be a book of lies when there's so much

truth? And I'm only talking about the Old Testiment. Not even the new.

Made up? People challenged the Bible, but that's ok. It's just a

disappointment to watch the fools, with the answers proven, spoken and

shared, still unwilling to take the truth in their hand, and walk the

walk God planned for them. There's alot to tell. What matters is that

who are willing to accept it.

God is looking.

Shadowkit 02-Jan-2003 10:18

Quote:

God is looking.
That pervert, nothing better then a peeping Tom :D (sorry I couldn't resist)

Just because the bible contains true events, it doesn't mean everything is true. Look at the movie Pearl Habor. The event was real, but the story is cleary made up.

Little Kid Izzy 02-Jan-2003 10:24

Quote:

(Originally posted by frezzy)

It's facinating how you people can get so interested in talking about

spirit beings and God, but when people provide you with the answer, You

stick up your nose and mock in dis-believe. What do you know about the

bible? A book about Abraham, the parting of Red Sea, King David, all

fairie tales stories to you? and King Cesar was mention because the

book is written during his reign? Scriptures which exist even till now

were carbon-dated to be hundred of years before the Birth of Christ,

Was there to tell of the Coming of the Messiah... Or do you want to

correct me, saying they were all made up? Dates were dated 'B.C' for a

reason. If you ever study about the Bible, you will know that it is

more than a book of tales. It is a book of history and prophesy. Events

were proven to have existed, lost ruins of cities were found, they all

tally with the supposed 'made-up stories' in the Bible. King

Nebucharnezzar, the Babylon Empire, Medes, Persians... All found in a

book call the Bible... And to think that each empire are around 80

years span... How can this book be a book of lies when there's so much

truth? And I'm only talking about the Old Testiment. Not even the new.

Made up? People challenged the Bible, but that's ok. It's just a

disappointment to watch the fools, with the answers proven, spoken and

shared, still unwilling to take the truth in their hand, and walk the

walk God planned for them. There's alot to tell. What matters is that

who are willing to accept it.

God is looking.
1.I know that it meets the criteria for a fiction book.
2.Can you actually prove the parting of the red seas? I don't know much about King david.
3.Carbon Dating is not as concrete as once thought, there are other better methods.
4.They are B.C. because religious people set the standard for the ages. You have to understand, not everyone is christian.
5.Easy, it is called allusions. You use real events in a fanasy form.
6.Excuse me, who are you calling fools? I could easily call you a fool for blindly believing a book.
7.Why should I accept what you consider the truth, which by the way, has no real facts towards it, and walk the path that a being created, this being the most conterversial of all?

Basically, your one of those fanatics that considers atheist from the pits of hell. It's okay, I enjoy watching brainwashed foolsl ike yourself.

AznBlade 02-Jan-2003 18:56

Quote:

Well, what if i murder him? That is surely evil...even the bible says so!
Yet, I doubt it is if in self defense or to save another.
Quote:

(Originally posted by shadeslinger)
Nobody has yet addressed the issue that god is not all powerful, knowing, and good.
1) IF god exists, AND the commandments in the bible represent goodness, AND God has broken his own commandments, THEN there are three possible conclusions:
---> God doesnt exist.
---> The comandments are inaccurate.
---> God hasnt broken his own commandments
Either God has killed people, or the bible is inaccurate...im happy with either explanation. Can anyone find a hole in that argument?
It may be negated by saying that What is right and wrong is described by god, i.e. murder is right if god condones it. Obviously however, this falls into the hole of the 'arbitary morality' thing.
Well... what exactly are you classifying as right and wrong?

The bible IS flawed. There have been many retranslations, and revisions over the centuries. Some of the earlier copies of the Torah (Early Old Testament) state more along the lines of "don't murder in cold blood". I don't remember exactly what it said because I read it at a museum a few years ago.

Besides... I don't really have much a belief in the literallity of the old testament.
Quote:

Another thing...ALL POWERFUL. That doesnt leave much room for interpretation. ALL KNOWING. That doesn't either. ALL GOOD....well, that has some problems. lets look at the commandments. If they are a basis for doing what is right (and any christain will tell you that they are), then clearly breaking them is wrong. Time for another logic exercise...

1) The commandments more or less represent 'good'
2) The commandments are frequently broken.
3) Breaking the commandments is wrong
Therefore (1,2,3) Wrongness exists.
A) God exists
B) God does not want wrongness/evil
C) God is all powerful and all knowing, hence knows about evil and can do something about it, and all good, hence wants to do something about it.
D) God doesn't do much about it.
Clearly, A,B,C and D cannot all be true. Which one is not?

First off you are making the assumption that because there are no APPARENT consequences for sin (wrongness or evil) then God doesn't exist. This is a wrong assumption. In reference to A B C D, All are true with D having a less obvious answer.
People generally attribute their own definition of good to God. The bible states in Matthew 19 that only God is good. Well people then take that and apply the term to God using their definition of good. The fact is God is so far beyond us we will never fully comprehend His full nature....a finite being (us) cannot comprehend an infinite being (God) in totality.
The fact is God will do something about wrongness, evil and sin. At some point according to the bible God will return and the Earth will be restored and all evil and sin will be eliminated. At that point all peoples past and present will be judged accordingly. We have the choice to follow His plan or go on our own....He will not force us to worship or follow Him but rather allows us to make the choice of our own volition. Think about it, would you rather force someone to follow you or have a group of individuals follow you willingly....

It is correct that nothing can be proven to a 100% certainty but again when you look at overwhelming evidence and facts some things are far more likely than others...
Very convincing arguement, but again the commandents may have been flawed over the retranslations and revisions. There used to be a contraversey over which set of commandments were right.
Which Ten Commandments?
You can't exactly say which represent what, or even if it represents anything.
Yes, the "commandments" are frequently broken and there is wrong in the world... but does that necessarily mean there's evil? There's a difference between being wrong and being evil.

shadeslinger 03-Jan-2003 00:05

You say the bible is flawed. I have yet to see anyone post anything specific from the bible that is "flawed". There are absolutely no flaws or errors in the bible that could possibly lead to the conclusion that: 1) God does not exist
2)Bible teachings are false.
I find it all so very interesting that people "seemingly" find "flaws" or "Contradictions" in the bible and instead of trying to study further to test their hypothesis, arbitrarily dismiss the entire work based on a few shallowly researched self declared flaws.

AznBlade 03-Jan-2003 00:50

Quote:

(Originally posted by shadeslinger)
You say the bible is flawed. I have yet to see anyone post anything specific from the bible that is "flawed". There are absolutely no flaws or errors in the bible that could possibly lead to the conclusion that: 1) God does not exist
2)Bible teachings are false.
I find it all so very interesting that people "seemingly" find "flaws" or "Contradictions" in the bible and instead of trying to study further to test their hypothesis, arbitrarily dismiss the entire work based on a few shallowly researched self declared flaws.
Here's a few points why I believe the bible is flawed and that it isn't 100% literal.
a) There are many versions that stem from different publications, translations, revisions, etc. There are differences between Jewish and Christian commandments, yet the texts both stem from are from the same stories of Moses. Another example is in the previous disputes in the debate over the different commandments.

Those versions tend to differ in places and sometimes contradict eachother.

b) Depending on how you view the bible, there are contradictions. Cygnus-Study: Contradictions in the Bible as well as differences in what should be the same account of a story and quotes.

c) I've posted this all before, so why don't you get off your high horse and try to read them, instead of trying to dismiss my claims and trying to discredit me for the reason that you were too lazy to read my previous posts. There have been countless discussions on this topic where I have presented evidence over and over again. Research a topic and read it.

d) Depending on your interetation of the bible, there are contradictions in the bible against proven science. Some examples are the whole evolution of man, dating techniques, etc.

Rabbousamai 03-Jan-2003 01:55

i guess constant rain for forty days and the magical appearance of several trillion litres of water, 9 foot tall warriors without spinal problems and nine hundred year old men are all fairly common...

shadeslinger 03-Jan-2003 01:58

Aznblade:

I have read some of those examples you have posted (used the link you have provided) and I did post a response to at least one of those examples. All of the examples I read can also be just as easily explained.
As to the proven science statement....evolution has never been proven that is why it is called the "Theory" of evolution not the Law of evolution as the Law of Gravity. There is no hard evidence for Macro-evolution (the change of one kind of animal into another) however I will go so far as to say there is Micro-evolution (bacteria becoming resistant to antibiotics for example).
I would like to say that I did not intend to come off as "being on a high horse" I'm just passionate about my beliefs as I am sure you are as well. I do enjoy the exchange of ideas. :b

Gen Maxxwell 03-Jan-2003 02:05

god is not real, he is just an item/person/whateva to cling onto in times of need, light in darkness, comfort in bad times, so on and so forth.

no such thing

Sesko 03-Jan-2003 02:12

penumbra knight ...... I have absolutely no proof at this moment in time that you are actually real ....... you are just words on a screen to me.

Although it is possible that I could one day prove to myself that you are real it is also possible that one day I might prove to myself that god is real.

As a light in my darkness, a god, however it might be described is more real than anything else.

Little Kid Izzy 03-Jan-2003 02:36

Why must people rely on the existance of a higher being to give validity to their lifes? Why must people believe that anything that gives them hope is related to god? Why can't people rely on their own inner strength instead of belieivng everything a book says?

Azure Dragon 03-Jan-2003 02:43

I want to ask something:

Is Atheism really a Sin?

In teh bible, one of the comandments was to not worship any other. Atheists dont worship any god, so is that really a sin in christian eyes?

shadowrunner 03-Jan-2003 03:05

I believe that the very reason we are here is divine, however, they only thing I can do about it is simply live my life for the benfit of man and at the same time have some fun...

Im not religous in any way and I do not blieve in some old bearded man sitting n a cloud

ZeroGenesis 03-Jan-2003 04:36

Quote:

(Originally posted by Muzzle)

I want to ask something:

Is Atheism really a Sin?

In teh bible, one of the comandments was to not worship any other. Atheists dont worship any god, so is that really a sin in christian eyes?

Muzzle, as to your question, there is a very good example in the bible to explain this:

Quote:

"He who is not with me is against me, and he who does not gather with me scatters. Therefore I tell you, every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven men, but the blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven. And whoever says a word against the Son of man will be forgiven; but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come." (Matthew 12 : 30-32)
Jesus asserts (v 30) that one must ally with him or be opposed to him and "through this" he tells us (v 31) that the blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven. Blaspheming the Spirit is thus a failure to repent and ally oneself with Jesus. Since this can always be done during one's life (cf. 20 : 1-15), blasphemy against the Holy Spirit must be a final refusal to repent, or final impenitence.


So that's what us "churchies" believe about atheists.., and also why some of us waste so much of our time trying to argue with you. :\

HlR0 03-Jan-2003 04:50

Quote:

I want to ask something:

Is Atheism really a Sin?

In teh bible, one of the comandments was to not worship any other. Atheists dont worship any god, so is that really a sin in christian eyes?
From what I've experienced, MOST - NOT ALL - Christian's choose what is right and wrong and make up their own rules.

However, Athiests are usually good people who just can't see how others believe that an invisible man lives in the clouds, decides what we can and cannot do, chose TEN rules, and sends you to Hell to be tortured for all eternity if you break these rules.

And, I also wonder about this: One of the commandments states: "Thou shalt not steal." Another states: "Thou shalt not kill." Killing is basically stealing someone's life. It is also called taking a life. This is another thing that is quite odd.

asunti2506 03-Jan-2003 05:05

Quote:

(Originally posted by shadeslinger)

You say the bible is flawed. I have yet to see anyone post anything specific from the bible that is "flawed". There are absolutely no flaws or errors in the bible that could possibly lead to the conclusion that: 1) God does not exist
2)Bible teachings are false.
I find it all so very interesting that people "seemingly" find "flaws" or "Contradictions" in the bible and instead of trying to study further to test their hypothesis, arbitrarily dismiss the entire work based on a few shallowly researched self declared flaws.
Oh, c'mon, I can recall at least 4 examples from the top of my head. Different accounts of Genesis, Jesus' last words, implying that PI = 3 and that the Earth is flat. Take a look at http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/contra.html which lists over 100 contradictions.

toasted 03-Jan-2003 06:25

There are many contradicitions because that fiction book was written by man at that time! It's a storybook with lots of stories and morals. I beleive we can find "fairy-tale collection" books at any respectable book retailer. Of course, at that time, people were more violent so the thought of cutting someone's head off was not a big shock to kids (so it CAN be a kid's story book). Or maybe a short story book for adults.

frezzy 03-Jan-2003 06:34

Quote:

(Originally posted by Digi Kid Izzy)
Basically, your one of those fanatics that considers atheist from the pits of hell. It's okay, I enjoy watching brainwashed foolsl ike yourself.
=) Precisely what I say in my previous thread. =) We'll see who enters Hell. =) At least you are more prepared to enter than me. =) Enjoy your furnace of fire. Oh, When you see Satan, do remember to tell him that FreZzy's Laughing.

Little Kid Izzy 03-Jan-2003 06:48

Quote:

(Originally posted by frezzy)

=) Precisely what I say in my previous thread. =) We'll see who enters Hell. =) At least you are more prepared to enter than me. =) Enjoy your furnace of fire. Oh, When you see Satan, do remember to tell him that FreZzy's Laughing.
Why should I fear something that I don't believe even exists? I mean, look at yourself, you seem to believe you are right, and without any evidence. If I see Satan, I'll ask him if I can join him in the destruction of Heaven, if it exists.

If a lot of these churchies are right, I might still go to heaven even if I don't believe in it if I do awesome in life. So, oh well. I guess that's life.

And there's still no proof of the afterlife

nutty 03-Jan-2003 07:06

Quote:

(Originally posted by Digi Kid Izzy)

Why should I fear something that I don't believe even exists?
you shouldn't fear anything you dont believe exists. i cant stand it when i hear people bragging about being good god-fearing people. since when do you brag about being a coward. now, i understand that he is all-powerful, but when is the last time you ever did anything that pissed him off enough to do anything about it. just face it, if there is a god, he isnt worried whether or not you are afraid of him or going to hell, if that exists either. personally, i think theres a god. i dont have a clue whether there is an afterlife, but i really dont care. if i live good and there is a heaven, i will go there. if i live bad and there is a hell i will go there. i might move around in a cast system. i dont really care. all i know is real is my life and the world i live in now. whatever anybody wants to believe is fine with me as long as they dont force it on me and as long as it doesnt call for harming anyone but themselves.

frezzy 03-Jan-2003 07:21

Quote:

(Originally posted by Muzzle)

I want to ask something:

Is Atheism really a Sin?

In teh bible, one of the comandments was to not worship any other. Atheists dont worship any god, so is that really a sin in christian eyes?
Hey pal, Think all you like about Atheists isn't a sin. In the Bible it says that Jesus is the way, the truth, the light. No one gets to eternity, only through Him.

Those who are really interested to know God, below is my email. Can't be bothered to read threads from those who are here simply to talk rot.

[email protected]

Little Kid Izzy 03-Jan-2003 07:32

It's funny to see people like him, I was as deluded as him. I thought believing in god would make me happy, safe, secure, hopeful. Guess what? Right before I started questioning christinaity, I was a suicidal wreck because it seemed that the all loving god hated me because I was bi.

Back up your claims, Freenzy Fanatic, with actual proof.

frezzy 03-Jan-2003 07:39

Quote:

(Originally posted by dourag0n)

From what I've experienced, MOST - NOT ALL - Christian's choose what is right and wrong and make up their own rules.

However, Athiests are usually good people who just can't see how others believe that an invisible man lives in the clouds, decides what we can and cannot do, chose TEN rules, and sends you to Hell to be tortured for all eternity if you break these rules.

And, I also wonder about this: One of the commandments states: "Thou shalt not steal." Another states: "Thou shalt not kill." Killing is basically stealing someone's life. It is also called taking a life. This is another thing that is quite odd.

Somewhere in the Bible I remember reading that God spoke to Moses in simple order words, not in parables. Meaning He simple told Moses to go to the Pharoah, and not show Moses a dove flying towards egypt or something. What I'm trying to say is that in the time of Moses, God list down clearly what to do, and what not to do. It's that's clear. Actually during the Old testiment, The 10 commandments are all that is needed to know. The rest are for the priests of the people, who were the advocates for the Israelites, to God.

frezzy 03-Jan-2003 07:51

Quote:

(Originally posted by Digi Kid Izzy)

It's funny to see people like him, I was as deluded as him. I thought believing in god would make me happy, safe, secure, hopeful. Guess what? Right before I started questioning christinaity, I was a suicidal wreck because it seemed that the all loving god hated me because I was bi.

Back up your claims, Freenzy Fanatic, with actual proof.
Don't quite understand what you are talking about. But as for the proof, =) It's there. Read the Bible. The Bible is the key to unlock doubts for those who believe, for those who trust Him. It's not really a book that tells you what to do. but tells you what is God like. I can give my best and tell you all I know. But what is important is that whether when spoken, will you take them as points to note and live with it. =) What sorts of proof you want? My life is the best proof I believe. Care for a chat, Izzy? leave me a msg in my email. =)

Little Kid Izzy 03-Jan-2003 07:56

I am tryign to say that I was a devout, zionist Christian once. Yes people, I actually believed the bible and almost everythign it said, if not everything. Quite contrary to how I am now. I thought god loved me, I thought he would take care of me. Then I find out he says I am bad because I like boys. I start questioning, I find holes, mistakes, etc. I start seeing if this god person cared for us soo much, why did he single out groups? I kept on going, searching for my own truth. And I have found it. I am hapy now, I have my best friend, who I love, my online big bros. Before, I had nothign but a bible.

Shadowkit 03-Jan-2003 10:39

I question the bible itself. It was written by several different people with bias views. Who is to known is they didn't make up the miracles so the miracles can be admire ad viewed as good. IMO the so-called miracles from the past were simple illusions and the people easily believe the tricks. Why should I take their words?

Also look at the current world. How many major religions pop up recently that hasn't splited from another faith?

Hero of Time 03-Jan-2003 16:58

ok, people. Let's stop and think here. Do you realize that it is a historical fact that many people that helped write the Bible DIED for what they wrote and believed? Why would they DIE for a lie? That would be stupid. They could have went on living if they would have denied it, and said they no longer believed. But they didn't, did they? Why would they DIE for a lie? That's just stupid. I mean, if it is all a lie that they just made up, why would they die for it? Tht wouldn't make sense. No one would take a lie to death just to trick people.

Hero of Time 03-Jan-2003 17:20

<i>And there's still no proof of the afterlife</i>

I beg to differ. First, how dare you challenge the Most High? I feel sorry for you, when the day of your death comes, it will not be a pretty one. You want proof of the afterlife? Jesus talked about it all throughout his life. He is a VERY credibable witness in my opinion, but then, if you do not believe, that is your choice to make. If you do not choose to believe the Lord, then I don't know why you would believe me right now, or anyone else. I don't even know why you would believe yourself if you deny the Lord. I don't think you do believe yourself. Deep down, if you all feel for it, you'll feel Jesus tugging at your heart. Hey, whether you believe or not, God loves you, but if you continue to let sin corrupt you...well, let's just say you aren't gonna be having fun. As Jesus said,

"You will look for me, but not find me, where I am, you cannot come"

You cannot follow Him to heaven without believing. You will look for a faith, and a god, and a lord, but you will not find Him. But now, He has given you a chance. I am not forcing my faith upon you, but I strongly suggest, repent, for the Kingdom of God will come soon! We will all be judged, and I want as few people as possible to be judged guilty.

Hero of Time 03-Jan-2003 17:21

"And there's still no proof of the afterlife"

well it won't let me put this in italics, and I don't know how to do the quote thing, so just live with that being a quote.

I beg to differ. First, how dare you challenge the Most High? I feel sorry for you, when the day of your death comes, it will not be a pretty one. You want proof of the afterlife? Jesus talked about it all throughout his life. He is a VERY credibable witness in my opinion, but then, if you do not believe, that is your choice to make. If you do not choose to believe the Lord, then I don't know why you would believe me right now, or anyone else. I don't even know why you would believe yourself if you deny the Lord. I don't think you do believe yourself. Deep down, if you all feel for it, you'll feel Jesus tugging at your heart. Hey, whether you believe or not, God loves you, but if you continue to let sin corrupt you...well, let's just say you aren't gonna be having fun. As Jesus said,

"You will look for me, but not find me, where I am, you cannot come"

You cannot follow Him to heaven without believing. You will look for a faith, and a god, and a lord, but you will not find Him. But now, He has given you a chance. I am not forcing my faith upon you, but I strongly suggest, repent, for the Kingdom of God will come soon! We will all be judged, and I want as few people as possible to be judged guilty.

Hero of Time 03-Jan-2003 17:23

heh, double post, and I can't delete, so live with it. :) lol

AznBlade 03-Jan-2003 19:23

Wow... No matter where I go, on any forum I post, in any chat I go... there's always the most contraversey in religious threads.

Quote:

i guess constant rain for forty days and the magical appearance of several trillion litres of water, 9 foot tall warriors without spinal problems and nine hundred year old men are all fairly common...
It depends on your interpretation of the bible. 40 was a number of repentance and cleansing... 40 days at sea, 40 days in the desert, etc... People were small back then, so 6ft could look like 9ft. There was also a different system of measurements, so the translations may not be very accurate. 900 can be an example of an exageration for someone who lived to say 60. People didn't live very long because of the hard labor. It can also be used in a sense of how long their names have lived in their offspring.
-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Quote:

Aznblade:

I have read some of those examples you have posted (used the link you have provided) and I did post a response to at least one of those examples. All of the examples I read can also be just as easily explained.
IF you look at the page the link links to, you'll see a list of responses to the contradictions and responses to those responses.
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As to the proven science statement....evolution has never been proven that is why it is called the "Theory" of evolution not the Law of evolution as the Law of Gravity. There is no hard evidence for Macro-evolution (the change of one kind of animal into another) however I will go so far as to say there is Micro-evolution (bacteria becoming resistant to antibiotics for example).
I never said evolution was a proven law. I'm talking about the validity of fossils, dating techniques, etc.

If you believe in micro-evolution, why is it so hard to believe a series of micro-evolutions going into macro-evolution?
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god is not real, he is just an item/person/whateva to cling onto in times of need, light in darkness, comfort in bad times, so on and so forth.

no such thing
I have no proof you exist. I have no proof Julius Ceasar ever existed either. Documents could be made up, and statues could've been made just because.

Now, give me 3 objective reasons why God doesn't exist.
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Why must people rely on the existance of a higher being to give validity to their lifes? Why must people believe that anything that gives them hope is related to god? Why can't people rely on their own inner strength instead of belieivng everything a book says?
The center of at least my religion is NOT the bible. I take it as mainly a big metaphor. Perhaps someone people's inner strength rellys in a higher presense? Not all people are the same. We all have strengths and weaknesses, differences, and similarities.
-=-=-=-=-=
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I want to ask something:

Is Atheism really a Sin?

In teh bible, one of the comandments was to not worship any other. Atheists dont worship any god, so is that really a sin in christian eyes?
Depends on your interpretation of the bible. First of all, which set of commandments from which bible publication, trasnaltion, type, and era? IF you're just going to say general commandments of Christians, then it may or may not be according to individual beliefs. I believe actions are what are ultimately judged, and religion is just sort of an honor class in life.
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There are many contradicitions because that fiction book was written by man at that time! It's a storybook with lots of stories and morals. I beleive we can find "fairy-tale collection" books at any respectable book retailer. Of course, at that time, people were more violent so the thought of cutting someone's head off was not a big shock to kids (so it CAN be a kid's story book). Or maybe a short story book for adults.
And why is it so hard to believe it could've been a metaphor for morals and lessons that were taught to a people?
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Hey pal, Think all you like about Atheists isn't a sin. In the Bible it says that Jesus is the way, the truth, the light. No one gets to eternity, only through Him.

Those who are really interested to know God, below is my email. Can't be bothered to read threads from those who are here simply to talk rot.
Ok... what about:
a) People before Jesus
b) People who've never heard of Jesus
c) People who've had bad experiences with Christians and associate Jesus with that bad experience
d) People who have other religious parents that aren't Christian

Any way, according to you, they're screwed. Why? Because they're born or had bad experiences out of their control. Wouldn't that make God unjust?
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I question the bible itself. It was written by several different people with bias views. Who is to known is they didn't make up the miracles so the miracles can be admire ad viewed as good. IMO the so-called miracles from the past were simple illusions and the people easily believe the tricks. Why should I take their words?

Also look at the current world. How many major religions pop up recently that hasn't splited from another faith
a) Miracles can be believed or not, there's no forcing on them to be a Christian or believe in God
b) Try taking the bible as a metaphor on how to live, and it'll make more sense
c) Yes, miracles can be faked... yet, if there really is a God, then they can be real. So, if you don't know if God exists, how can you be sure the miracles didn't?
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
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"And there's still no proof of the afterlife"
There isn't.
Quote:

well it won't let me put this in italics, and I don't know how to do the quote thing, so just live with that being a quote.

I beg to differ. First, how dare you challenge the Most High?
Why can't one ask? Isn't that the route to knowledge?
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I feel sorry for you, when the day of your death comes, it will not be a pretty one. You want proof of the afterlife? Jesus talked about it all throughout his life. He is a VERY credibable witness in my opinion,
Ok, a man talked about it. There've been thousands who've talked about earth gods and afterlives of milk and honey... wow. Not all people believe in Jesus the way you do.
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but then, if you do not believe, that is your choice to make. If you do not choose to believe the Lord, then I don't know why you would believe me right now, or anyone else.
There is no assurance anyone believes what anyone says.
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I don't even know why you would believe yourself if you deny the Lord.
Saying there's no proof doesn't mean you're denying God.
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I don't think you do believe yourself. Deep down, if you all feel for it, you'll feel Jesus tugging at your heart. Hey, whether you believe or not, God loves you, but if you continue to let sin corrupt you...well, let's just say you aren't gonna be having fun. As Jesus said,

"You will look for me, but not find me, where I am, you cannot come"
You may feel that... but then again, that may be a psyco-somatic reaction to what you've been taught all your life.
Quote:

You cannot follow Him to heaven without believing. You will look for a faith, and a god, and a lord, but you will not find Him. But now, He has given you a chance. I am not forcing my faith upon you, but I strongly suggest, repent, for the Kingdom of God will come soon! We will all be judged, and I want as few people as possible to be judged guilty.
A chance?
What about:
a) People before Jesus
b) People who've never heard of Jesus
c) People who were born under different parents and raised under a different faith (buddhism, Judaism, etc.)
d) Jews... the same people Jesus was raised from
e) People who associate bad experiences with Jesus? (victims of Crusades, Spanish Inquisition, etc.)

They're all screwed by you, and what chance do they have?

Let me guess.. you believe in Revelations. You sound like it too. Lol... I'm sure Jesus is a boy with a double bladed sword down his throat, holding 7 stars while also being a lamb with 7 heads and 7 eyes and that flies with the head of men and crowns of kings will come to bite me for 7 years for not having devout beliefs and questioning what others try to brainwash you into thinking from a source (the bible) which isn't entirely accurate and which I choose to believe isn't all literal.

Little Kid Izzy 03-Jan-2003 19:34

Quote:

(Originally posted by Hero of Time)

ok, people. Let's stop and think here. Do you realize that it is a historical fact that many people that helped write the Bible DIED for what they wrote and believed? Why would they DIE for a lie? That would be stupid. They could have went on living if they would have denied it, and said they no longer believed. But they didn't, did they? Why would they DIE for a lie? That's just stupid. I mean, if it is all a lie that they just made up, why would they die for it? Tht wouldn't make sense. No one would take a lie to death just to trick people.
No they wouldn't. Okay, so, according to these people, they heard a voice and they wrote some stuff down. Isn't that like a mental illness nowadays? Hearing voices and doing what they tell you to do?

cid12 03-Jan-2003 19:40

If someone wants to refute evolution, he might try to argue it (even thou I doubt he has enough knolege) in evolution vs creationism thread, particullary now that people have started posting more accurate profs in it.

I hope that if there is a heaven there is a hell, because if heaven is full of priests and cathequeist, I WANT TO GO TO HELL!

Little Kid Izzy 03-Jan-2003 19:41

Quote:

(Originally posted by Hero of Time)

I beg to differ. First, how dare you challenge the Most High?
I challenge your Most High because there is no proof of his existance because he causes millions to be persecuted upon.

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I feel sorry for you, when the day of your death comes, it will not be a pretty one.
I dont' fear death, I don't fear a painful death. I will stand by what I believe.
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You want proof of the afterlife? Jesus talked about it all throughout his life. He is a VERY credibable witness in my opinion, but then, if you do not believe, that is your choice to make.
What a lot of you religious people seem to do is treat us atheist like if we are lost. Don't you see that you believe in a book that there has never been proof for, or nobody has given this proof? I feel that you people are blind.

Quote:

If you do not choose to believe the Lord, then I don't know why you would believe me right now, or anyone else. I don't even know why you would believe yourself if you deny the Lord. I don't think you do believe yourself. Deep down, if you all feel for it, you'll feel Jesus tugging at your heart.
LOL, I use to be like you. I wised up. People talk about how god and jesus is in their lives, making a difference. It's called a placebo. They use it on people to make them believe something while nothing at all is happening, but their self esteem goes up and they do beter
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Hey, whether you believe or not, God loves you, but if you continue to let sin corrupt you...well, let's just say you aren't gonna be having fun.
I'm having a ball in life, and I don't believe god exists. So wouldn't that prove you wrong?
Quote:

As Jesus said,

"You will look for me, but not find me, where I am, you cannot come"

You cannot follow Him to heaven without believing. You will look for a faith, and a god, and a lord, but you will not find Him. But now, He has given you a chance. I am not forcing my faith upon you, but I strongly suggest, repent, for the Kingdom of God will come soon! We will all be judged, and I want as few people as possible to be judged guilty.
Why should I repent to someone I don't believe in. Why should I care to be judged by a being who's existance is the most controversial of all time?

I swear, I use to be like you...I pity myself.

Eskaflaner 03-Jan-2003 19:42

YES i do

HlR0 03-Jan-2003 20:22

Tell me something... have any of you MET God? I think not. You may have, in a dream, in your head. People who are so bent on forcing everyone to believe in God seem like people who would end up leading a cult later in life, brainwashing everyone they meet to have their beliefs.

Also, those same people are like the first Europeans to set foot on this continent. They forced the inhabitants at the time to change their beliefs and accept Jesus as their Savior. CONVERSION.

If I go to hell for not believing in God, SO BE IT. Most of the other people here who don't believe probably feel the same way. My mind won't be changed.

Hero of Time 03-Jan-2003 20:29

Ok, here we go. Saying there is not proof of the Most High is denying Him. What about in court? If you say there is no proof of someone doing something, yeah, that is saying that they more than likely didn't do it. Now, you all can believe what you want, as I said, but I strongly urge you to think about what you are doing. And yes, I do believe in Revelation, but, think about it, the VAST majority of it, is metaphors and such. Representational.



"I'm having a ball in life, and I don't believe god exists. So wouldn't that prove you wrong?"

Is it not obvious that I am talking about later, in judgement?



"No they wouldn't. Okay, so, according to these people, they heard a voice and they wrote some stuff down. Isn't that like a mental illness nowadays? Hearing voices and doing what they tell you to do?"


Ok, I fail to see your arguement here. God didn't neccessarily say "Write this and this down", duh. They died because they believed in Christ, they followed Him around, watched all his miracles, and died because of it. They could have easily denied what they wrote and what they believed and continued to live. I wouldn't call Christ a "voice". If it isn't obvious, I was refering to the new testament, which has very few "voices". And, obviously there is no problem with hearing voices unless you seem extremely insane or something, because, was not Joan of Arc considered a saint, even though almost all of her actions were based on her council, voices she heard? She was judged a saint by people THESE DAYS. Obviously you must show other signs to be judged as having a mental illness. I have had prayers answered directly my friend. Some on the spot, right then and there. So you can believe what you want, but I'm not saying what you believe is right. The Lord my God pulled me through the summer, and has shown me signs and miracles, and so, you can believe what you want, but I'm always gonna know, that I'm right. And you may say, "Well, when I was a christian, I prayed, and none of my prayers were answered" or something. but guess what? The Bible also has an answer for that. "For the Lord God answers the prayers of the righteous". Obviously you did not believe, considering your position now, so you were not righteous, therefore, your prayers were not answered. Now tell me, why are you here, to tell me that there is no God? What good will that do you? I have a credible book to back me up, and you have what, yourself? You can argue that my book is not credible, and neither are my personal experiences (although both ARE credible) but, you have no proof. "For all scripture is the breath of God". The Bible is real, whether you like it, or believe it, or not. I am here to attempt to convert, to teach you that you still have a chance. And according to what I have heard, atheists, well, as an atheist, think. If you do not believe in God, and there is a God, where will you be? At judgement you would be in trouble. And, if you do believe in God, and there turns out to be no god (although there is a God, this is hypothetical), then you won't have anything to worry about. Although, believing for those reasons is selfish and the Most High will see right through it, believing is a lot safer than not.

Little Kid Izzy 03-Jan-2003 21:07

Quote:

(Originally posted by Hero of Time)

Ok, here we go. Saying there is not proof of the Most High is denying Him. What about in court? If you say there is no proof of someone doing something, yeah, that is saying that they more than likely didn't do it. Now, you all can believe what you want, as I said, but I strongly urge you to think about what you are doing. And yes, I do believe in Revelation, but, think about it, the VAST majority of it, is metaphors and such. Representational.



"I'm having a ball in life, and I don't believe god exists. So wouldn't that prove you wrong?"

Is it not obvious that I am talking about later, in judgement?



"No they wouldn't. Okay, so, according to these people, they heard a voice and they wrote some stuff down. Isn't that like a mental illness nowadays? Hearing voices and doing what they tell you to do?"


Ok, I fail to see your arguement here. God didn't neccessarily say "Write this and this down", duh. They died because they believed in Christ, they followed Him around, watched all his miracles, and died because of it. They could have easily denied what they wrote and what they believed and continued to live. I wouldn't call Christ a "voice". If it isn't obvious, I was refering to the new testament, which has very few "voices". And, obviously there is no problem with hearing voices unless you seem extremely insane or something, because, was not Joan of Arc considered a saint, even though almost all of her actions were based on her council, voices she heard? She was judged a saint by people THESE DAYS. Obviously you must show other signs to be judged as having a mental illness. I have had prayers answered directly my friend. Some on the spot, right then and there. So you can believe what you want, but I'm not saying what you believe is right. The Lord my God pulled me through the summer, and has shown me signs and miracles, and so, you can believe what you want, but I'm always gonna know, that I'm right. And you may say, "Well, when I was a christian, I prayed, and none of my prayers were answered" or something. but guess what? The Bible also has an answer for that. "For the Lord God answers the prayers of the righteous". Obviously you did not believe, considering your position now, so you were not righteous, therefore, your prayers were not answered. Now tell me, why are you here, to tell me that there is no God? What good will that do you? I have a credible book to back me up, and you have what, yourself? You can argue that my book is not credible, and neither are my personal experiences (although both ARE credible) but, you have no proof. "For all scripture is the breath of God". The Bible is real, whether you like it, or believe it, or not. I am here to attempt to convert, to teach you that you still have a chance. And according to what I have heard, atheists, well, as an atheist, think. If you do not believe in God, and there is a God, where will you be? At judgement you would be in trouble. And, if you do believe in God, and there turns out to be no god (although there is a God, this is hypothetical), then you won't have anything to worry about. Although, believing for those reasons is selfish and the Most High will see right through it, believing is a lot safer than not.
I love dealing with blind god fearing people.
1.Wow, the man must love you if he answers your prayers directly.
2.I was like you. Hell, the thought of there not being a god scared the hell out of me. I always thought that god would care for me, no matter what. I can understand that you've had prayers answered almost directly, that's what it seemed like to me too. Then I start getting these vibes, I start checking out guys, I start, well, being gay. Suddenly, I start hating myself. God says he hates gays, and I don't want him to hate me, I won't be gay. I was a suicidal wreck. I finally stop believing, I felt it was the only way to save myself. I started questioning what I saw, instead of blindly following it. I don't need no lord or god to save me, I have my online big bro's. They are the ones that have kept me sane, not some half baked nut in the sky with a beard. If ther somehow is a god, and I refused to believe in him, too bad for me. I'll deal with it then and there. I don't think he exists, but I at least I dotn' call you all fools for believing so, unlike what converters call atheist. Don't come here to convert, you won't be getting any converts here.

The Lost Lands 03-Jan-2003 21:33

Sorry to tell you this, but gays are looked down upon by more than just some people that go to church. You won't escape it by not believing in God anymore. Also I would like to know which religion it is whose God hates gays... While it is a shame that some members of a church might treat you poorly for who you are.. that is probably representative of only the select few who hurt you. Not the church they belong to.

Than again, even if you are told that God hates gays... Why should that stop you from believing in God? In your shoes I would simply see these others as wrong and follow my own feelings.

luke44 03-Jan-2003 22:32

I dont believe in gods, but i believe in spirits, forces. I just listen a report on a mummy, ! :\ ! lol, the guy who wrote the first mummy story (little thing coming back to live with toilet paper on him!) wrote his story when the mummy of a priest who tried to put in the egyptian religion the fact that anyone mummyfied could come back to life thousands years ago... :eek


Luke44 - Lord Of MySelf
I AM CANADIAN

Happy New Year Everybody

ZeroGenesis 04-Jan-2003 00:55

Digi Kid Izzy: Why do you think God "hates gays"? I don't agree with you on that. He may hate same-gender sexual activity, but he would never hate the person doing it!

Azure Dragon 04-Jan-2003 05:45

Quote:

(Originally posted by ZeroGenesis)

Digi Kid Izzy: Why do you think God "hates gays"? I don't agree with you on that. He may hate same-gender sexual activity, but he would never hate the person doing it!
If I might answer for Izzy. From what I understand of Izzy, he does not beleive in God, therefor, he technically does not beleive that God hates Gays. However, considering that many of the christain people here, and maybe in his real life, denounce him becuase he is gay. He does not beleive in your God. Christains here do. They portray the image that God hates gays, via their posts.

jago1 04-Jan-2003 05:51

well i just have to say ......those who dont believe in god dont deserve to live......well i would call them LOW LIVES.....lower beings with no understanding....hope the Gods show mercy on your 'petit' souls .....

Little Kid Izzy 04-Jan-2003 06:10

Quote:

(Originally posted by jago1)

well i just have to say ......those who dont believe in god dont deserve to live......well i would call them LOW LIVES.....lower beings with no understanding....hope the Gods show mercy on your 'petit' souls .....
I also call people who can't spell and come in here with stupid comments low lives..who is the morelaly wrong person?

HlR0 04-Jan-2003 06:25

Quote:

well i just have to say ......those who dont believe in god dont deserve to live......well i would call them LOW LIVES.....lower beings with no understanding....hope the Gods show mercy on your 'petit' souls .....
It's people like this that act the stupidest about something. I can deal with people who simply believe in the idea of God, but not people who throw words around, making themselves look foolish, while not even using proper grammar and punctuation (Forgive me, it's one of those things.)

Also, what is with, "the GODS?" You say you beleive in one God. Maybe either a person just grabbing attention, or a fool who is saying two things, basically the opposite.

Deal with it that you can't change everyone's mind and that not all people agree with you.

Azure Dragon 04-Jan-2003 06:26

Thanks for that highly intelligent comment Jago. That greatly hinders the case your religous friends make.

Aether Dominus 04-Jan-2003 06:51

Thank you Captain Obvious...

What is it, exactly, that you hoped to acheive with that wonderful, wise, & witty insight, jago1?

ton4052 04-Jan-2003 08:49

tell you the truth...
if u don't believe fine with me...just don't ask "WHY?" during Judgement Day

i am in this world along with other brothers and sister just to tell everybody who i believe in and thats it...

and to tell you...here is what i believe in...

you and i are sinners...we commited sin (anything that is wrong)...stealing and lying...
we are all suppose to die just as today if u commit a crime, you get thrown in jail or you get killed...
BUT...one major BUT... :lol

your Creator...God Himself...came down to this place call earth and humbly die for you...YOU...why did he die for you?
To save you from death...to save you from not able to see God...His Name was Jesus...why did He come down to this horrible place...BECAUSE HE LOVES YOU...EVERYBODY...does he love the wrongs we do...no...HE LOVES US FOR WHO WE ARE...period...

well...it would been the end and all..but no...to prove that He was God...He rose again the third day...and prove that yes...He was man...but also...He was GOD. that is why you can't found his bones anyway on this face of the earth (i think the Jews could have shot down Christian by showing the body of Jesus)...

well you might say you didn't do sin...BUT...have you ever hate someone...i did...that is murder...have you look at a man or woman lustfully...i did...that is commit adultery...have you want that hot porshe on the street...i did...that is coveting...BUT ALL THIS DOESN'T MATTER ANYMORE...WHY?!?!?!?!

CUZ JESUS CHRIST DIED FOR YOU AND YOU AND YOU...period...He created you but you fell...and He didn't want you to fall...He picked you up and not let you just stand there...He hug you and embrace you and lead you home

many of us would say we don't need him...we can conquer life...easy...NO PROBLEM...but why is there a longing in your heart to lean on something or someone...WHY?...cuz GOD put it there...
I thought that i could conquer life too...to the point of almost commiting suicide...i couldn't take it anymore...seriously...i was down so down...

Why would you wanna debate if he real of not...why come to this forum and debate...why...WHY?!...because you care...(or you got nothing better to do) :b

God is real and i believe in Him...if you want to believe in Him...pray and ask Him for His help...if not, fine...i don't want you to hear you complain to anybody during the last day...

by the way...faith is trusting and believing something or someone you can't see, hear, or touch...faith is love...love is faith...ponder about it...do you have faith?
it takes faith to believe God is real...

TO ALL MA BROS AND SIS...LIFE IS HARD BUT REMEMBER HE IS ALWAYS BY YOUR SIDE LEADING THE WAY...

Shadowkit 04-Jan-2003 09:25

Quote:

your Creator...God Himself...
mine creator are mine parents, they gave me the chromosomes that I needed to be born.

Quote:

have you ever hate someone...i did...that is murder...have you look at a man or woman lustfully...i did...that is commit adultery...have you want that hot porshe on the street
thinking about something doesn't make it a crime, if I can murder someone just by hating them, the world's popluation wouldn't be as high as it is now

Quote:

Why would you wanna debate if he real of not...why come to this forum and debate...why...WHY?!...because you care...(or you got nothing better to do)
your right, I got nothing better to do

Quote:

well i just have to say ......those who dont believe in god dont deserve to live......well i would call them LOW LIVES.....lower beings with no understanding....hope the Gods show mercy on your 'petit' souls .....
Thank you so much for your words of wisdom, now been over and stick them up your ass.

Little Kid Izzy 04-Jan-2003 09:42

Quote:

(Originally posted by ton4052)

tell you the truth...
if u don't believe fine with me...just don't ask "WHY?" during Judgement Day
If there is such a day, I'll ask,"What is my judgement?"

Quote:

i am in this world along with other brothers and sister just to tell everybody who i believe in and thats it...

and to tell you...here is what i believe in...

you and i are sinners...we commited sin (anything that is wrong)...stealing and lying...
we are all suppose to die just as today if u commit a crime, you get thrown in jail or you get killed...
BUT...one major BUT... :lol

your Creator...God Himself...came down to this place call earth and humbly die for you...YOU...why did he die for you?
To save you from death...to save you from not able to see God...His Name was Jesus...why did He come down to this horrible place...BECAUSE HE LOVES YOU...EVERYBODY...does he love the wrongs we do...no...HE LOVES US FOR WHO WE ARE...period...
So why are millions prosecuted based on what is said that he wants?
Quote:

well...it would been the end and all..but no...to prove that He was God...He rose again the third day...and prove that yes...He was man...but also...He was GOD. that is why you can't found his bones anyway on this face of the earth (i think the Jews could have shot down Christian by showing the body of Jesus)...
Umm, he isn't god, he is the son of god, according to the bible. (I know some stuff, GASP)
[quote] well you might say you didn't do sin...BUT...have you ever hate someone...i did...that is murder...have you look at a man or woman lustfully...i did...that is commit adultery...have you want that hot porshe on the street...i did...that is coveting...BUT ALL THIS DOESN'T MATTER ANYMORE...WHY?!?!?!?![quote]
Your point would be? SOme of us don't care, since we don't believe that everything we do is sin.
[quote] CUZ JESUS CHRIST DIED FOR YOU AND YOU AND YOU...period...He created you but you fell...and He didn't want you to fall...He picked you up and not let you just stand there...He hug you and embrace you and lead you home[quote]
No, that is a lie. If that was true, I would still believe in him today. You know who was the one that hugged me and lead me home on the rock road called suicide, my online big bro.
Quote:

many of us would say we don't need him...we can conquer life...easy...NO PROBLEM...but why is there a longing in your heart to lean on something or someone...WHY?...cuz GOD put it there...
I thought that i could conquer life too...to the point of almost commiting suicide...i couldn't take it anymore...seriously...i was down so down...
It's because of your damm god that I was so suicidal. But I faced up to what I needed to conquer, and I did. I didn't need any spiritual help, I met my online big bro, and well, he's the one that takes care of me, not some crackpot in a book.
[quote] Why would you wanna debate if he real of not...why come to this forum and debate...why...WHY?!...because you care...(or you got nothing better to do) :b [quote]
We have nothing else do to do
Quote:

God is real and i believe in Him...if you want to believe in Him...pray and ask Him for His help...if not, fine...i don't want you to hear you complain to anybody during the last day...
Don't worry, you'll just hear me complain on why the line is so long to hell.
Quote:

by the way...faith is trusting and believing something or someone you can't see, hear, or touch...faith is love...love is faith...ponder about it...do you have faith?
it takes faith to believe God is real...

TO ALL MA BROS AND SIS...LIFE IS HARD BUT REMEMBER HE IS ALWAYS BY YOUR SIDE LEADING THE WAY...
It also takes for him to do something important and actually meanigful in your life. It also takes you being what he wants, a non homosexual. Guess what? He doesn't exists. I have love. I have hope. And I had to earn it all. I am sick and tired of you spiritual freaks coming in here telling people that they are wrong for being atheist.

D Man 04-Jan-2003 09:48

Quote:

(Originally posted by Digi Kid Izzy)

Umm, he isn't god, he is the son of god, according to the bible. (I know some stuff, GASP)

Actually, he WAS God.

-------
-------

Source: Webster's Revised Unabridged Dictionary, © 1996, 1998 MICRA, Inc.

Jesus

n : a prophet of the first century (circa 8 BC - 29 AD); to Christians he was both God and man--the Messiah sent to save the human race from the sin it inherited through the Fall of Man [syn: Jesus, Jesus of Nazareth, Jesus Christ, Christ, Savior, Saviour, Good Shepherd, Redeemer]

ZeroGenesis 04-Jan-2003 11:27

Quote:

It also takes you being what he wants, a non homosexual. Guess what? He doesn't exists. I have love. I have hope. And I had to earn it all.

Okay Digi Kid Izzy, let me tell you one thing: You say you were once a Christian, and now you have a major hate-complex going against God because you THINK he hates you because you are bi. He doesn't. He loves you for who you are, regardless of whether you are or not, he just doesn't WANT you to be bi. If you're going to hate God, at least get your facts straight.

God views same-gender sexual relations as a perversion, but he does not hate those who indulge in such a thing. Your posts also reflect that you feel that you have TRIUMPHED over God merely because you have achieved what you feel to be love and hope - even though you don't believe in him - which he wanted you to have in the first place, granted, not in the same way, but that is irrelevant in this case.


This is what I see from the opinions you have posted so far. It is fairly obvious that your being bi is the ONLY core reason that you are anti-God, and whether you like it or not, those reasons ar unfounded... Maybe sometime in the future you will reconsider, maybe not, I may never know myself, I just hope you do.

Azure Dragon 04-Jan-2003 13:55

Quote:

(Originally posted by ZeroGenesis)

Okay Digi Kid Izzy, let me tell you one thing: You say you were once a Christian, and now you have a major hate-complex going against God because you THINK he hates you because you are bi. He doesn't. He loves you for who you are, regardless of whether you are or not, he just doesn't WANT you to be bi. If you're going to hate God, at least get your facts straight.

God views same-gender sexual relations as a perversion, but he does not hate those who indulge in such a thing. Your posts also reflect that you feel that you have TRIUMPHED over God merely because you have achieved what you feel to be love and hope - even though you don't believe in him - which he wanted you to have in the first place, granted, not in the same way, but that is irrelevant in this case.


This is what I see from the opinions you have posted so far. It is fairly obvious that your being bi is the ONLY core reason that you are anti-God, and whether you like it or not, those reasons ar unfounded... Maybe sometime in the future you will reconsider, maybe not, I may never know myself, I just hope you do.

I think that is going to far to make a generalisation about Izzy. You dont know him, and to make a broad generalisation about him is totally wrong.


And I ask you. Is it God that views homosexual acts as perversions, or is it simply your church's leaders?

AznBlade 04-Jan-2003 19:09

What is up with the endless arguing here? This will solve nothing and do nothing... *sigh*

Quote:

I challenge your Most High because there is no proof of his existance because he causes millions to be persecuted upon.
Can you prove the existance of Attila the Hun? Can you prove the existance of time through senses?

Everything causes people to be persecuted upon... law, enviroment, politics, economy, money, society, etc... Do you look down upon those as well?
-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Quote:

What a lot of you religious people seem to do is treat us atheist like if we are lost. Don't you see that you believe in a book that there has never been proof for, or nobody has given this proof? I feel that you people are blind.
Blind for what? Not having the same beliefs as you do? To others you may be blind for the same act you do now.

There is no solid proof for the bible except on the accounts of Jesus' existance and the spread of the apostles. For all we know it could've been historic fiction or a biography that was exaggerated. So, what's your point? How is it blindness to believe it may be a story with metaphoric meaning, or it could be literal scripture. Please, I'd like to know how am I blind to consider different things?
Quote:

Tell me something... have any of you MET God? I think not. You may have, in a dream, in your head. People who are so bent on forcing everyone to believe in God seem like people who would end up leading a cult later in life, brainwashing everyone they meet to have their beliefs.
Tell me something... have any of you MET Julius Ceasar? I think noy. You may have, in a dream, in your head. Historians who are so bent on forcing everyone to believe in Julius Ceasar seem like people who would end up leading a cult later in life, brainwashing everyone they meet to have their beliefs.
-=-=--=-=-=-=-=-=-
Quote:

Ok, here we go. Saying there is not proof of the Most High is denying Him. What about in court? If you say there is no proof of someone doing something, yeah, that is saying that they more than likely didn't do it.
Only under certain circumstances and context. Do you have any idea about court dealings? When you say there's no evidence, it can be an objective statement that there is indeed no evidence, but it can also be a biased statement for a certain side.

Just because there is no evidence, doesn't mean there is no God. Denying God would be denying God. I take my definitions from something called a dictionary.
Quote:

Now, you all can believe what you want, as I said, but I strongly urge you to think about what you are doing. And yes, I do believe in Revelation, but, think about it, the VAST majority of it, is metaphors and such. Representational.
So why is it so hard to think metaphircally about any other part of the bible?
Quote:

"For all scripture is the breath of God". The Bible is real, whether you like it, or believe it, or not.
a) You're using circular logic. If the bible is real, then God is real for you base proof on the bible. But, if God is real, then the bible is real for you base proof on God. Lol...

b) Contradiction right there. You say it's real. Didn't you just say parts of Revelation were metaphorical?

Before I fully rebutt, which scripture is the breath of God?
Please tell me exactly which: translation, publication, type, revision, and title is the breath of God?
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Quote:

Sorry to tell you this, but gays are looked down upon by more than just some people that go to church. You won't escape it by not believing in God anymore. Also I would like to know which religion it is whose God hates gays... While it is a shame that some members of a church might treat you poorly for who you are.. that is probably representative of only the select few who hurt you. Not the church they belong to.

Than again, even if you are told that God hates gays... Why should that stop you from believing in God? In your shoes I would simply see these others as wrong and follow my own feelings.
Did it ever occur to you that it may be a misinterpretation? I know gays aren't looked down at the church I go to. In fact, one of our permanent deacons is gay.

Things are misinterpreted. Laws, politics, etc... But, it could also be based on the time period. During the time when the bible was written, sex was more sacred and more respected than it was now, and only done to create life. What seems right to some thousands of years ago may be wrong today. In some rural cultures, poeple consider rape a good thing for it keeps the population going.

Hero of Time 04-Jan-2003 19:51

"b) Contradiction right there. You say it's real. Didn't you just say parts of Revelation were metaphorical?"

Ok, I'm mainly going to argue with this. Revelation is what John saw when he was exiled. It was a vision type thing. It has a meaning, but some of it may not exactly be clear, some things mean other things, and are not completely literal, you have to take deep thought into them, they mean something and are truthful. Why do you try to pull me from my God? Answer me that. If there is no god, as you think, then what harm will it do for me to believe in Christ? I won't be judged if there is no god, so I have nothing to worry about. Whereas, I actually have a reason. Conversion is important to my religion, for my God loves all. He cares about you all. And Izzy, the Lord my God does not hate bis. He hates the sins everyone commits. He does not hate the person. If you fight your sin, and ask God to forgive you and help you, He will forgive you, and He always loves you.

AznBlade, listen, you must not have read my earlier posts, because I have yet to see anyone come up with an arguement that rivals it AT ALL. IT IS A HISTORICAL FACT, THAT WITNESSES OF CHRIST AND WRITERS OF THE BIBLE DIED FOR WHAT THEY BELIEVED AND WROTE!!!!!! Why would they do such a thing if it were not true? Would they die for lies they wrote? That does not make sense AT ALL!!!!! Why would they die to trick people? There would be no point! Christ died for you, and if you wish to refuse His love, then...I feel sorry for you. Christ is amazing. And some people here, they say, they thought being a christian would make them happy, and life easier and such. Well, it doesn't, look at how much we are persecuted for believing Christ is God. We have to stand up to them, and do our best to make them come to the truth. And by the way, someone was talking about how Christ is merely the Son of God, not God himself. He is God, in human form. Part of the Trinity, 3 that are 1, Father, Son, Holy Spirit. Just as you have a mind, heart and body. They are seperate but the same. The Father is like the mind, the Son is like the body, and the Holy Spirit is like the heart. I will pray for you all. And, I can't remember if anyone said it or not, but did any of you say that for arguing with others beliefs, us christians deserve death? I know it was said in a different topic, so, I'll just talk a little about it here.

"To me, life is Christ, and death is gain"

Paul said this. We cannot accept other religions' beliefs, because our God wishes for us to convert them, because He wants as many people in heaven as possible, but only sinless and holy things can enter heaven, which we are not. And you may argue, "Well, why doesn't God just change it then, so that anything can enter?", I tell you this, why would God want to be with evil? So we must be perfect to enter, and He came to earth as Christ to die for you, and He took your sins to the cross with Him, and He took them upon Himself, and He died, so that you might live, and enter heaven. For since the beginning of time, God-the divine and eternal creator- has made his invisible qualities visible, through creation itself, and so much more, so that men are WITHOUT EXCUSE (this is a bible verse near the beginning of Romans that I altered slightly with my words). You have no excuse to deny the Lord. You make it sound like He should come when you say come, and do what you tell Him to, and not question you. I am sorry, but He is not a pet. He is Lord, why should He do what you tell Him to? He answers prayers because He cares for us, but, espicially, if you challenge Him, why would He show Himself to you, He wants you to have faith, which is believing in what you can't see. But He has made Himself visible, and still you refuse to see. Who are you, to darken the Lord's council with words without knowledge (another slightly altered verse, from Job 40 I believe)? You make it sound like you are so superior, well, at judgement day, if you do not change, you will be the most inferior of all things. Lower than a rat, it will be more fortunate than you, it ceases existence, whereas, you will be tortured forever, and I will pray that you will change your ways. You are just a human, what can a human do? Not much. You have fake love and faith and hope. I myself was once close to suicide. I knew I would never do it though. God pulled me through. I prayed for Him to show me a sign, that He wanted me to remain on earth. He showed me the sign, within the amount of time I asked Him too. I knew I couldn't commit suicide, cause that would be a sin, and I could not repent from it, because I would be dead. I knew that He would pull me through, and He did. I will pray for you all.

fishbaghan 04-Jan-2003 20:54

um u all raise interesting points but get a load of this:

how was god created?

HlR0 04-Jan-2003 22:05

Quote:

Tell me something... have any of you MET Julius Ceasar? I think noy. You may have, in a dream, in your head. Historians who are so bent on forcing everyone to believe in Julius Ceasar seem like people who would end up leading a cult later in life, brainwashing everyone they meet to have their beliefs.
So you change a couple words around? This thread isn't about Julius Ceasar. And you make no sense with changing a couple phrases. Somehow, historians will end up leading a cult? They don't FORCE anything. Most Christians will force their ideas into your head until you beleive in their god.

D Man 04-Jan-2003 22:15

Quote:

(Originally posted by dourag0n)

So you change a couple words around? This thread isn't about Julius Ceasar. And you make no sense with changing a couple phrases. Somehow, historians will end up leading a cult? They don't FORCE anything.

He used Julius Ceasar to prove a point. And so far you have not shown us how his point is wrong.

By the way, I would guess that most histoians would get pretty upset and try really hard to make you beleive in him, if you denied that he ever existed :-)

Quote:


Most Christians will force their ideas into your head until you beleive in their god.
That is TOTALLY untrue.

Where on earth do you guys get these baseless stereotypes from?

HlR0 05-Jan-2003 00:40

Quote:

He used Julius Ceasar to prove a point. And so far you have not shown us how his point is wrong.

By the way, I would guess that most histoians would get pretty upset and try really hard to make you beleive in him, if you denied that he ever existed
My point was that he may not have existed. There have not been very many arguments about that. However, there is more proof of Julius Ceasar than there is of Jesus.

Quote:

Where on earth do you guys get these baseless stereotypes from?
Did I say ALL? No, I said MOST, which is not a stereotypical word. Wherever I've been, almost everyone tries to convince me and everyone who doesn't beleive in God that he is there.

D Man 05-Jan-2003 00:52

Quote:

(Originally posted by dourag0n)

Did I say ALL? No, I said MOST, which is not a stereotypical word. Wherever I've been, almost everyone tries to convince me and everyone who doesn't beleive in God that he is there.
Did I say that you said "ALL" ???

And:

"Most" can be a steatypical word.

For example, if I said that most unemployed people were lazy bums, would that be a steatype?

YES.

Where exactly do you hang out? The local Priests Pub. The Nuns swimming club? The Popes favourite Cafe? :-)

If that is really the case, and you are always being forced to beleive in God by most people, then I strongly advise you go to a normal place to hang out and have fun.

D Man 05-Jan-2003 00:54

Quote:

(Originally posted by fishbaghan)

um u all raise interesting points but get a load of this:

how was god created?
That in the end is up to beleif.

I could just as easily say,

"How can space be infinate" ???

That goes against Physics and Science as well.

HlR0 05-Jan-2003 03:36

Quote:

Where exactly do you hang out? The local Priests Pub. The Nuns swimming club? The Popes favourite Cafe?

If that is really the case, and you are always being forced to beleive in God by most people, then I strongly advise you go to a normal place to hang out and have fun.
Smart remarks are not neeeded. The places I hang out are right by where I live. Everyone around here as well as at school are religious fanatics. Thus, when I say "most," it is completely true. Nine out of ten, okay? Do you understand now? Come to just about anywhere in Florida, and you'll be swarmed by these idiots.

ton4052 05-Jan-2003 08:54

dourag0n...

like i said before...me along with ma bros and sis in Christ are own in this world to tell u about who Christ is...THATS IT...lol

it seems like when they tell u...they are forcing it on to u...i know...been there...but do u know why?

cuz they (we) care...we don't want u to believe because they will be more of us...no...we want u to believe because...we love you...oopz...did i say "love"??!!!...YES
:lol

well...i dunno...it seems like u atheist out there and other religions are being attacked each day...but if u real look differently...Christianty is very different because the founder "Jesus" is the only "founder" to declare Himself God...

check the other religions...u find that to be true...
anyways...one other point...

why don't God just come down to earth and prove that He exist...u know why?
that is because he is...see might no see it...or hear it...but He is...now that is faith...
look at the birds in the air. who feeds them?
look at the flower in the meadow. who feeds them?
look at the people stuck in the tower during 9/11. who was looking at them and say "welcome home? He was.

yes science proof...bird get food from the trees...
trees get food from the sun...
do u believe it is all an accident that we exist...
do u kno in phyics...it states that a object that is not moving will stay no moved until a force is act upon it...
what is that force...it is not a what...BUT who?!

that i leave up to you

Warlyik 05-Jan-2003 09:05

Heh, I myself being an aetheist/agnostic don't appreciate someone of another religion, whether it be Christianity (ran into a few of those), Islam (None), or Judaism (None as well, go figure), that attempt to force their religion onto me. Usually I can come up with a debate or something that proves them wrong and they quickly scatter without being able to say much. Gotten a reputation for myself at school with some of my class-mates that way because a majority of the high school I'm at is of the Christian religion.

But besides that, there are three religions who basically believe in the same one "God". If you're going to accept monotheism then you should atleast check out each religion, their benefits, their beliefs, their goals, etc. Evaluate them for yourselves, don't just accept what other people tell you because their opinions can be quite biased. There are three to choose from, basically. They are of course, Christianity, Islam, and Judaism. It should be your choice which one you follow if you do follow them, and you shouldn't be swayed by someone else's opinion until you've gathered all the facts.

In reality, neither of these religions can be proved or disproved, atleast as of yet, but in the future this may change. Faith is the key to any of these religions who believe in "God" or even any of the other religions which are polytheistic which is the belief in more than one "god" for different aspects of life. You could even consider those if you're open-minded enough, I myself know people who follow other types of religions than monotheistic types, and they're perfectly good people.

Again, the choice is up to you which path you take along the long road that life winds itself down. Decisions in your life will affect your future, and you have a clear choice as to what you can believe. Don't be afraid to take a chance however, because everyone makes mistakes, and just because you're afraid of some divine punishment doesn't mean you shouldn't make the most of the time while you're alive and have the ability to reason.

Other than that, my advice has dwindled along with the dwindling essence my mind contains as it is about 3:00 AM here.. I'm really surprised I'm not that tired.. Oh well, hope I helped someone here. (;

Shadowkit 05-Jan-2003 09:19

Quote:

IT IS A HISTORICAL FACT, THAT WITNESSES OF CHRIST AND WRITERS OF THE BIBLE DIED FOR WHAT THEY BELIEVED AND WROTE!!!!!!
I agree with you there, they died for what they believe in just like the suicide cults. Just because they believe in it doens't make it true.

Quote:

Would they die for lies they wrote?
yea, people kill for things less then lies

Quote:

We cannot accept other religions' beliefs, because our God wishes for us to convert them, because He wants as many people in heaven as possible,
Does this occure before or after you taken the lands of the natives and use them as slave labor.(In case you are wondering I am talking about expansion into the "New" World)

Quote:

I am sorry, but He is not a pet.
[Joke]To bad, just think of all the things I can make him do[/Joke]

Warlyik 05-Jan-2003 16:48

Quote:

Where exactly do you hang out? The local Priests Pub. The Nuns swimming club? The Popes favourite Cafe?

If that is really the case, and you are always being forced to beleive in God by most people, then I strongly advise you go to a normal place to hang out and have fun.
D-Man, let me get this straight.. Because of a religion discriminating towards you and being intolerant, you have to move somewhere else? Since when does that make any sense? You know what this reminds me of? Black and White segregation. Racism. Plain pathetic is how I describe it. No one's going to make me move just because their silly religion is in my way. I don't know if you're Christian or not, but if you are I'd seriously start memorizing some morals from the Bible and reiterize on what you read if you did.

If this is truly how you or anyone reacts, then it is no better than some white hick wandering up to a black man in the middle of a city and saying, "Get out of my town, boy". Not that I'd think any stupid person would do that nowadays, what with the gun-toting serious people out there.. (No offense to anyone intended) I also hope that people have gotten over racial discrimination as well, and it's surprising how long religious discrimination has lasted throughout the centuries..

Think about how life would be without religion. There would be far less wars, as many of them are fought over religious disputes (Take Israel/Palestine for instance) and we wouldn't have people bothering eachother over senseless beliefs that can never be proven. We could accept eachother more freely, and the world would be more peaceful.. But instead everyone's gotta think they're always right, when the other thinks the exact same thing.. which creates conflicts.. Just think about what life would be without having faiths.

Just another of my comments on the situation, if you are offended by me then that really is your problem.. But I'm open-minded and quite fair if you ask me, I could be a lot worse.

AznBlade 05-Jan-2003 18:58

Since I have to go, I'll rebutt a few points.
Quote:

Why do you try to pull me from my God? Answer me that. If there is no god, as you think, then what harm will it do for me to believe in Christ?
a) I believe in a God
b) I'm not trying to pull you away from God, but I'm trying to defend against funamentalist remakrs
c) I beleive in Christ, so what's your problem?
Quote:

IT IS A HISTORICAL FACT, THAT WITNESSES OF CHRIST AND WRITERS OF THE BIBLE DIED FOR WHAT THEY BELIEVED AND WROTE!!!!!! Why would they do such a thing if it were not true? Would they die for lies they wrote?
a) The bible has been rewritten, revised, and redone over the years from the original. The modern isn't exactly what it used to be.
b) They could've died for the metaphoric message behind the bible which is what I believe in.
Quote:

We cannot accept other religions' beliefs, because our God wishes for us to convert them, because He wants as many people in heaven as possible, but only sinless and holy things can enter heaven, which we are not.
No, that's what you choose to believe by your interpretation. I don't have much belief in Paul myself and am still debating the facts on him. There are many sects of Christianity saying Paul is the anit-Christ for he changed the teachings of Jesus. I'm still looking into that, but the more evidence is having me doubt Paul.
-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Quote:

um u all raise interesting points but get a load of this:

how was god created?
either:
a) God is self-created
b) God always existed
-=-=-=-=-
Quote:

So you change a couple words around? This thread isn't about Julius Ceasar. And you make no sense with changing a couple phrases. Somehow, historians will end up leading a cult? They don't FORCE anything. Most Christians will force their ideas into your head until you beleive in their god.
a) You can't prove Julius Ceasar existed either because you haven't seen him, so you'll reference books. There's books on Jesus too.
b) I'm a Christian. I don't force ideas. I respect other beliefs and believe God sent a messenger to all peoples and to believe or not is your choice and I also believe actions ultimately are what are judged. So whats your problem with that?

HlR0 05-Jan-2003 21:38

Quote:

a) You can't prove Julius Ceasar existed either because you haven't seen him, so you'll reference books. There's books on Jesus too.
b) I'm a Christian. I don't force ideas. I respect other beliefs and believe God sent a messenger to all peoples and to believe or not is your choice and I also believe actions ultimately are what are judged. So whats your problem with that?
a) I never said anyone could prove Julius Ceasar existed, however, there is stronger evidence.
b) Did I single you out when I said "most?"

AznBlade 06-Jan-2003 00:48

Quote:

(Originally posted by dourag0n)
a) I never said anyone could prove Julius Ceasar existed, however, there is stronger evidence.
So, where is the line between strong evidence and weak evidence?

You can refernence Julius Ceasar's existance through statues, documents, and accounts. You can reference Jesus' existance through the same means. I know that most historians at least in the US agree that Jesus did exist. The only thing contraversial is the connection of Jesus and a higher being.
Quote:

b) Did I single you out when I said "most?"
No, but it's a generalization that since you said "most", "most" likely therefore includes me. Most implies the area of 50.1%. Therefore it is "most" likely you included me.

Warlyik 06-Jan-2003 01:27

Actually, Aznblade, fact is that Jesus hasn't had any statues made of him that can date back as far as when he existed, and hence the fact that no one really knows what he looked like, supposing he did exist. The only relative 'evidence' (if you can call it that) of Jesus' existence is in fact the Bible. There is very little to support it, so.. I can get why he's saying that Julius is probably more believable.

Also, if you're going to be technical about "most" then you could also be the 49.9% that he is not talking about. He obviously didn't mean it, so just forget it. Don't need to get technical over things futile as that :\

D Man 06-Jan-2003 01:58

Quote:

(Originally posted by Warlyik)

D-Man, let me get this straight.. Because of a religion discriminating towards you and being intolerant, you have to move somewhere else? Since when does that make any sense? You know what this reminds me of? Black and White segregation. Racism. Plain pathetic is how I describe it. No one's going to make me move just because their silly religion is in my way. I don't know if you're Christian or not, but if you are I'd seriously start memorizing some morals from the Bible and reiterize on what you read if you did.

If this is truly how you or anyone reacts, then it is no better than some white hick wandering up to a black man in the middle of a city and saying, "Get out of my town, boy". Not that I'd think any stupid person would do that nowadays, what with the gun-toting serious people out there.. (No offense to anyone intended) I also hope that people have gotten over racial discrimination as well, and it's surprising how long religious discrimination has lasted throughout the centuries..

I NEVER said he had to leave these places!!!

(because of this almost your WHOLE POST IS REDUNDANT)

Why dont you read what someone says, before comming in here and saying they said things which they NEVER said.

Especially if you are then going to make up ideas that they said anything (ANYTHING) along the lines of being Rascist or Discriminatory.

My point was that where on Earth must he hang out if everyone he talk to (or "most") is a religous fanatic.

The only reason that "most" people he talks to is a religous fanatic is if he hangs out in a very strange place. The majority of the world is NOT LIKE THESE PLACES.

(ie, most of the world would not have people in them like "the popes favourite Cafe and the Nuns swimming Pool")

Therefore, his view on the majority (or many) of Christians is flawed and I would like to make that clear.

Please, if any of you still do not understand my point, then please say so and I will try and say it in another way to help you understand what I am saying.

Quote:


Just another of my comments on the situation, if you are offended by me then that really is your problem.. But I'm open-minded and quite fair if you ask me, I could be a lot worse.
The only thing I am offended by is the fact that you made up the words in my mouth.

I never said 3/4 of the things you say I said.

Why would I be offended?

Warlyik 06-Jan-2003 03:28

No offense, D-Man, but I think you lack the ability to comprehend the words you type. You clearly stated

Quote:

If that is really the case, and you are always being forced to beleive in God by most people, then I strongly advise you go to a normal place to hang out and have fun.
I take that as a direct attempt to get someone to move just because other people are discriminatory against that person. No one should just get up and leave because other people feel the need to ridicule them for their beliefs. I clearly stated this before and you misinterpretted it for me attacking you, which I never did.

Quote:

(because of this almost your WHOLE POST IS REDUNDANT)
Not true, hence you lack the meaning of the word 'redundant'. Redundant is, for example, me calling someone a nerd geek. They both mean basically the same thing, thus are redundant, you only need to say 'nerd' or 'geek'. So, find a better word, even though it still doesn't fit.

Quote:

Especially if you are then going to make up ideas that they said anything (ANYTHING) along the lines of being Rascist or Discriminatory.
I related racial discrimination to the topic, not to what you said. Again, learn to comprehend before you explode like a nuclear bomb.

Quote:

The only reason that "most" people he talks to is a religous fanatic is if he hangs out in a very strange place. The majority of the world is NOT LIKE THESE PLACES.
Do you know where he lives? Do you know his lifestyle? Do you know him? You cannot possibly assume he frequents 'strange places'. These places are likely found all over the U.S. that act the same way, perhaps even other parts of the world. That is hardly strange.

Quote:

Therefore, his view on the majority (or many) of Christians is flawed and I would like to make that clear.
In this instance he is merely stating about how he feels of the people AROUND HIM, not the people in the entire world. You mistook his words and put words into HIS mouth, much like you think I put words into your mouth and yet I didn't, which is quite clear to anyone whom understood.

Quote:

The only thing I am offended by is the fact that you made up the words in my mouth.

I never said 3/4 of the things you say I said.

Why would I be offended?
First off, you are offended obviously and you've taken it far too seriously in the first place which I believe I warned people not to do. Secondly, I did NOT put words into your mouth. I stated my opinion as it was and those were MY words. Lastly, you shouldn't have a reason to be offended and yet you are. Think about it.

ton4052 06-Jan-2003 07:18

tell u the true u all...i would really stop talking like a Christian and start acting like one...

all of u should calm down...man this is not even a chat room...only a forum...lol

to tell u the truth...without religion...there won't be wars...i agree...but taking it away...does it help?

did u kno the terms "Jews" and "Palestines" are religious terms...all came from the Bible...

Did you kno why Jews and Palestines are fighting even till this day...than u can look in the Bible...from the beginning with Issac and Ishmael the sons of Abraham...(sorry bad spelling) :b fighting over who gets the blessing...
it was suppose to by dynastic succession...first born gets the blessing...but God had other plans. Ishmael was the first born but Issac got the blessing.

now the fighting is more intense. the God of the Jews and God of Palestines are the same...God of Abraham who is GOD!!! but BUT...wut makes the difference is the fact Christian believe that God did not limited his blessing to only the Jews or Palestines....no...after Jesus came down and die...and rose again, the blessing was given to the Gentiles whoever believes.

also i think the Bible states the world will end if there is "Peace in the Middle East" and the anti-Christ (Satan) will arise tempting everybody...i dunno about that...u can correct me....thanks... :D

AznBlade 07-Jan-2003 00:55

Quote:

(Originally posted by ton4052)
tell u the true u all...i would really stop talking like a Christian and start acting like one...
Talking and typing is an act last time I checked.
Quote:

all of u should calm down...man this is not even a chat room...only a forum...lol
What's the difference?
Quote:

to tell u the truth...without religion...there won't be wars...i agree...but taking it away...does it help?
Really? I didn't know the War of 1812, Vietnam, and the World Wars were fought on the main basis of religion.
Quote:

did u kno the terms "Jews" and "Palestines" are religious terms...all came from the Bible...
No, the word "Palestinian" isn't in the bible for Palestine wasn't formed yet. The Word "Jew" is the name for a person of the Jewish faith, and recorded long before the full assembliment of the bible.
Quote:

Did you kno why Jews and Palestines are fighting even till this day...than u can look in the Bible...from the beginning with Issac and Ishmael the sons of Abraham...(sorry bad spelling) :b fighting over who gets the blessing...
a) The fight between Israelies and Palestinians has to do with land claim.
b) If what you claim is true, please explain how the relation to Issac and Ismael affects today's soceity
Quote:

it was suppose to by dynastic succession...first born gets the blessing...but God had other plans. Ishmael was the first born but Issac got the blessing.
Point?
Quote:

now the fighting is more intense. the God of the Jews and God of Palestines are the same...God of Abraham who is GOD!!! but BUT...wut makes the difference is the fact Christian believe that God did not limited his blessing to only the Jews or Palestines....no...after Jesus came down and die...and rose again, the blessing was given to the Gentiles whoever believes.
a) There were no Palestianians at the time of Isaac and Ishmael! There was no fighting between them!
b) Palestinians are a culture of people. You are reffering to the religion, Islam. Islam promotes tolerance of all religions under one God and therefore are bound by the Koran/Noble Qu'ran to respect Christians and Jews unless provoked.
Quote:

also i think the Bible states the world will end if there is "Peace in the Middle East" and the anti-Christ (Satan) will arise tempting everybody...i dunno about that...u can correct me....thanks... :D
a) Revelations is generally supposed to be taken as metaphoric
b) Where are you getting this?

ton4052 07-Jan-2003 07:38

aznblade...i dunno if u r a christian or not but i was asking if i was rite or wrong...hmm...to u it seems wrong

anyway...issac was the son of Abraham and Sarah (according to the bible)...prue Jew...
ishmael...was the son of Abraham and a maidservant(Hagar)...
now ishmael was not jews because the maidservant was not jew...God send the maidservant and her son away and according to the Bible Ishmael was the father of 12 rulers...(nation?)

now tracing the root of the mulism and jews...they are all brothers...but the wanting of getting the "Holy Land" forced brother to fight against each other. each claiming they have the blessing. now the fighting is base on land claims...but the roots is who gets the blessing. check it out...why would some people are willing to blow themselves up for a piece on land...(not gonna happen in utopia) :lol
the jews and mulism are not gonna say that they are fighting over blessing cuz it has been "fog up" with the term "Holy Land"

ma point on wars is not on wars...hehe
ma point was if u taking religion out of this world...would it make it better or worse?

sorry i made a mistake about the palestines...i thought i saw that word in the Bible...turn out to be philistines...hehe. but i think the philistines and palestines have something to do with each other...

D Man 07-Jan-2003 08:42

Quote:

(Originally posted by ton4052)

why would some people are willing to blow themselves up for a piece on land...(not gonna happen in utopia)
I guess you meant, "why would some people be willing to blow themselves up for a peice of land"?

Well, most wars are based on land ownership. So Im not sure exactly what you are getting at.

You seemed surprised and almost moked the fact that people fight over land?

As I have said, that is one of the main (if not the main) reason to start wars.

D Man 07-Jan-2003 08:44

Quote:

(Originally posted by ton4052)

to tell u the truth...without religion...there won't be wars...i agree...but taking it away...does it help?

Of course there will still be wars if there was no religion...

And you wonder why people get upset with other people, when people make claims like that???

Drizzt 07-Jan-2003 11:24

relgion is not the cause of wars, just the excuse. for example, look at the crusades. they werent fighting for jerusalem and god, rather goods, riches, land, and other things. why did osama attack the US? he states his reason is religion. if you study his cult then study the qu'ran, you would discover that he changed a whole lot of things. whoop, big excuse to gain support of muslims.
without religions, would there be wars? of course. different excuses, though.

Hurleyy 07-Jan-2003 16:49

I disagree. If there were no religions, people wouldn't be as different as they are. Therefore, less differences = less discrimination = less violence. If there was no religion Osama and other terrorists couldn't get people to die for them. They wouldn't go to heaven and have 70 virgins. So people would feel no motivation to go blow themselves up. Wouldn't they notice though, that Osama isn't blowing himself up for the cause. Youv would think he would want 70 virgins too.

blind io 07-Jan-2003 17:14

I agree with Phoenix. Religion is and has been tearing the world apart- physicaly spiritualy and mentaly.

And religion isn't an excuse for wars. It is the cause of these wars. If everyone had the same religion, we might as well had 10 universal countries or so.

AznBlade 08-Jan-2003 00:59

Quote:

(Originally posted by Phoenix BD)
I disagree. If there were no religions, people wouldn't be as different as they are. Therefore, less differences = less discrimination = less violence. If there was no religion Osama and other terrorists couldn't get people to die for them. They wouldn't go to heaven and have 70 virgins. So people would feel no motivation to go blow themselves up. Wouldn't they notice though, that Osama isn't blowing himself up for the cause. Youv would think he would want 70 virgins too.
You're all debating over the institution and the extremists. Is everyone just neglecting the faith itself?

When Osama propsed the jihad, he backed his excuses up with how Western culture was contaminating their lands and how Americans had no respect for them or their culture. 70 virgins is no excuse to blow yourself up. There was more to the cult than that.

If there is no religion, maybe there would be less differences. But, there is also a flipside to it. With all bad, there is good. With all good, there is bad. There may also be more poor, homeless, hungry, etc. There may also be more conflicts and violence. Religion does more than create differences. Most faiths give morals, values, ethics, etc. They help the needy and support those that need help or counsel.

Before I go on, are you reffering to religion as the institution, or religion as the faith itself?
-=-=-=-=-=-
Quote:

I agree with Phoenix. Religion is and has been tearing the world apart- physicaly spiritualy and mentaly.

And religion isn't an excuse for wars. It is the cause of these wars. If everyone had the same religion, we might as well had 10 universal countries or so.
Religion, politics, economics, soceity, enviroment, people, and almost everything else has been tearing the world apart. Yet, they all contribute to the healing and better of the world in their own form.

Please tell me some examples of how religion is the direct cause, and remained the only direct cause of the wars you say.

Wait, if everyone had the same religion? Didn't you just say religion was tearing our world apart? First you say it's bad, then good... make up your mind!

cid12 08-Jan-2003 19:37

I though that this was about existence of God, not what people do with it.

Like crussades, jihad and 1950's jewish terrorism in Israel. I think they all have Abraham in their history, but really can see where "You shall not kill", fits in the above examples.

So, is this getting on track or what?
Lets get this to be one of this one of those religious discussions where people want to kill each other (in a way, makes me think maybe I should retract my 1º statement).

Maybe killing other people is right, I guess religion either is right or it isn't (regardless of the contradictions). If you believe something to be divine and right, that might be the definition of right and no matter how nice you think, you are wrong!

shadeslinger 09-Jan-2003 05:18

[
PHP Code:

PHP]Nothe word "Palestinian" isn't in the bible for Palestine wasn't formed yet

[/php]


Just a quick comment....Palestine is found in the bible in Joel chapter 3 verse 4, Exodus chapter 15 verse 14, Isaiah chapter 14 verse 29 and 31 King James Version.

azndmx 09-Jan-2003 05:48

FOOOllls of course deres god...
go read the bible.......

azndmx 09-Jan-2003 06:05

Whats wif all the teasing of other religons..
No1 knows what religon is right but we still beleive the religon we follow. we folow it cause in our hearts we know whats true about it.

Atheist, they beleive theres no god...
because they beleive what they want to beleive

Christains beleive that jesus is the son of god and so do i.
I didnt beleive it cause sum1 juss told me, i beleive it cause i go to church, read the bible and pray.but whatever any1 says, in my heart i will always beleive that jesus is the son of god

Muslims beleive that Muhammad is the last prohet, and
talked to god and angels.


Each religon has proof on what they beleive in,no1 noes which one is true but when d day comes evry1 will know..

Hurleyy 09-Jan-2003 09:20

If any of you checked the Creation vs. Evolution thread I posted this :

************************************************** **********

God creates animals and then man - Gen 1:25-26
God creates man and then the animals - Gen 2:18-19

------------------------------------------------------------

Arpachshad's son was Shelah - Gen 11:12
Arpachshad's grandson was Shelah - Luke 3:35-36

------------------------------------------------------------

Noah takes 7 pairs of each type of animal onto the ark - Gen 7:2-3
Noah takes one pair of animal onto the ark - Gen 6:19

------------------------------------------------------------

Terah's lifespan.
According to Gen 11:26, Terah was 70 when Abraham was born and Abraham was 75 when he left Haran. Therefore he lived 70 years (ie. his age when Abraham was born) plus 75 years (the age of Abraham when he left Haran - as stated in Gen 12:4). He did not live beyond this as Acts 7:4 states Terah was dead when Abraham left Haran. So 70 + 75 = 145 years in total. However, Gen 11:32 states he lived 205 years.

------------------------------------------------------------

God promises Abraham the land of Canaan to live in - Gen 17:8
God did not allow Abraham to live in the promised land - Acts 7:5, Heb 11:8,9,13

************************************************** **********

The Bible is not a 100% correct document, therefore, it disproves the Christian God, he is perfect in every way so how can he give different information to different people?

Also these are examples of God breaking his own Commandments :

************************************************** **********

All forms of life destroyed because of one imperfect species - Genesis 6:5,7, 7:23.

Human sacrifice commanded by God - Leviticus 27:28,29.

God agrees that Jephthah sacrifices his daughter as a thanksgiving - Judges 11:29-40.

God sends ten plagues on Egypt because Pharaoh won't release the Hebrews, but he deliberately hardens Pharaoh's heart so he refuses to release the Hebrews making these plagues necessary in the first place - God admits this is so he can perform 'his wonders' (Exodus 11:9), ie. wholesale mass slaughter of life in Egypt - Exodus 7:3-4,13-14, 10:1,20.

God sanctions slavery and a man selling his daughter - Exodus 21:2- 6,7.

Death demanded for heresy - Deuteronomy 13:1,2,5,14,15.

God says that if a man strikes 'his slave', male or female, and they do not die immediately, the man shall not be punished because 'the slave is his money (ie. property)' - Exodus 21:20-21.

God orders people to slaughter their own relatives because they rejected Moses' religion; 3000 killed. Moses tells the killers that God would bless them for doing this by making them ordained for his service - Exodus 32:27-29.
A person to kill their own family for a difference of religion - Deuteronomy 13:6-10.

God demands death for anyone not circumcised - Genesis 17:9-14.

God demands the sick are to be driven out of the community - Numbers 5:1-4.

God burns people to death for complaining - Numbers 11:1.

God kills 24,000 people by a plague because one of them brought a Midianite woman to his tent - Numbers 25:6-9.

The curses of God upon the Hebrews (e.g. eating their own children) - Leviticus 26:14-39, Deuteronomy 28:15-68.

God arranges the Midianite slaughter - Judges 7:2,9,22.
(Note: Numbers 31:1-18 states that God instructed the mass slaughter of Midianites, and the Lord "slew every male", alongwith their rulers (31:7), and the Midianite women and children and animals were captured; Moses (God's mouthpiece - Numbers 12:6-8), then demands all the males, including babies and the women were to be slaughtered, but the young girls could be "kept alive for yourselves" (31:18). This story records the extermination of the Midianites, but later on, God AGAIN instructs the slaugher of the Midianites (Judges 6:16), It is the same with the
Amalekites - they are "ALL destroyed" in 1 Samuel 15:8, but they are destroyed yet again in 1 Samuel 27:8-9 and everyone - men and women - are killed; however, they are killed (- for the 3rd time) in 1 Samuel 30:1,16-17 except for 400 young men. At long last, they are are finally killed off in 1 Chronicles 4:43 when the 'remnant' were destroyed.

The Spirit of God comes upon Samson and he murders over a thousand people - Judges 14:19, 15:14-15.

The Psalmist praises God for his 'steadfast love' but then details his slaughtering in the past - Psalm 136:10-21.

God deliberately deludes people so they will not be saved - 2 Thess 2:11-12.

A girl not found to be a virgin was to be killed - Deuteronomy 22:13- 21 (Note the same did not apply to men).

God kills a baby for its father's wrongdoing - ignoring the father's pleas - 2 Samuel 12:15-20.

God kills 70,000 men - 2 Samuel 24:15.
was only God's mouthpiece (Numbers 12:6-8).

God has a friendly meeting with his arch enemy Satan - whom he doesn't even recognise - Job 1:6-7, and they have a wager (Job 1:8-12) over how much suffering it would take before righteous Job will reject God. Job then has his whole family killed and livelihood ruined (1:13-19) and then is afflicted by a loathsome plague (2:7-8).

************************************************** **********

Now if this isn't evidnece that men wrote the Bible for their own interests, i.e. Slavery, the slaughter of enemies, favor of the rich because only the poor would complain, killing of a non-virgin girl although it didn't apply to men, I don't know what is.

God delludes people so they deliberatley won't be saved? Now that doesn't seem all-forgiving to me. God all-knowing? He met Satan and didn't even know it, then ruined Job's life with a wager with the devil. Also I hope your circumsised cause God doesn't want you in heaven if you're not ;).

Hurleyy 09-Jan-2003 12:17

Did I scare all the churchies away or are you just not here?

Zero Gravity 09-Jan-2003 12:19

How people believe in God is just beyond me,
A god that hides from us while he sits on puffy clouds and sends down 10 rules written in stone (what happened to those) and if we dont obey those rules we are sent down to hell!

I have heard people say "well what made all this shit around us!"
Can you imagine FOREVER? The time between your birth and now is NOTHING compared to the time & rolls of dice it took to stumble upon this galaxy we live in today.
Elements found here on Earth are found out in space (to the idiot who asked about the creation of water, you need a science book.)



I want a God who stays dead not plays dead - D.W.

Drizzt 09-Jan-2003 13:36

phoenix check in the creation vs. evolution thread. i posted my reply there.

peanuts 09-Jan-2003 13:53

there was this book i read abt how some ppl were trying to prove whether god exist by the laws of deduction. it's kinda funny though. see if it makes any sense to u.

the fact that u are arguing abt whether there is a god proves that there is a god. for example, u have a cup of plain water in it. a guy comes up and says there is no sugar in the cup. the person had no way of knowing whether there was any sugar inside. but when the person said there is no sugar in the water, he has already acknowledged the FACT that there is a substance called sugar. so comparing this to the arguement of whether god exist, the fact that u said god doesn't exist proves that god exists!

haha. cool huh? but of course there are some loop holes in the arguement above. sugar is a physical quantity whereas god is spiritual.

Charlotte 09-Jan-2003 13:58

I don't belive in any god
 
NO

peanuts 09-Jan-2003 15:53

den u are admiting there IS a god! LOL. :lol :lol :lol

gelltor 09-Jan-2003 15:59

I believe in God. I'm glad I do, too. :D

St Anger 09-Jan-2003 16:27

I think the whole thing about Jesus is BS, why does he never show himsefl. the chiristians have many times said that god will come back and take the people that belives in him to heaven :nerd . Well, how long have you guys waited now 2003 years... in my school it's about 20 people of 350 that belives in god, so the future doesn't look good for the church.
and btw. christans people is all brainwhased, it's been proven that it wasen't god that made the earth, get over it!

Hurleyy 09-Jan-2003 16:46

Lord Drizzt those examples I posted are just a few out of many. Not all can be considered a tranlsation mistake, because they don't involve numbers. Ill be back to post them. And you STILL didn't answer on why God breaks his own commandments.

Hurleyy 09-Jan-2003 16:56

The rich cannot enter heaven; the kingdom of God is for the poor - Luke 6:20, Matt 19:24, James 5:1
God rewards by bestowing wealth and disciples can be rich - Job 42:10, Matt 27:57

Let others see your good works - Matt 5:16
Do not let others see your good works - Matt 6:1,4

Women are to be obedient and submissive to men - 1 Cor 11:3,7-9, 14:33-35, Eph 5:22-24, 1 Tim 2:11-15, Titus 2:4-5, 1 Pet 3:21
There are no sexes in Christ: both are "one" - Gal 3:28

God tells Zedekiah he will be captured but die peacefully - Jer 34:2-5
Zedekiah is capture, has his eyes taken out and is imprisoned to the day he dies - Jer 52:10-11

It is wrong to judge others - Matt 7:1, Luke 6:37, Rom 2:1, 14:10
Others can be judged - Matt 23:13-33, John 8:44, Rom 1:27,29-32

Martyred believers cry out for vengeance - Rev 6:9-10
Believers should love/forgive their enemies - Matt 5:44, 6:15,18:32-35, Luke 6:27-28

God instructs man to live on vegetarian diet - Gen 1:29-30
Any food can be eaten - Gen 9:3, Acts 10:12-13, Rom 14:2

Only God is to be called 'father' - Matt 23:9
Various people can be called 'father' - 1 Cor 10:1, Eph 6:1-4, 1 John 2:13-14, Matt 15:4

Believers will be deceived into leaving the faith - 1 Tim 4:1, Heb 6:4-6, Gal 3:1, Rev 2:5
God will protect believers from being led astray - Psa 31:23, 37:28,32,33, John 10:27-29

Christ is the only master - Matt 23:10
Employers are masters - Eph 6:5,9

Food offered to idols should be avoided - Acts 15:29
It is of no importance if food offered to idols is eaten - 1 Cor 8:1,4,7,8

The rich cannot enter heaven; the kingdom of God is for the poor - Luke 6:20, Matt 19:24, James 5:1
God rewards by bestowing wealth and disciples can be rich - Job 42:10, Matt 27:57

God's attributes are unknowable - Job 11:7-9
God's attributes are knowable - Rom 1:20

Saul killed by an Amalekite - 2 Sam 1:5-10
Saul killed by Philistines - 2 Sam 21:22

The Bible teaches forgiveness - Matt 6:14-15, Rom 12:17-19, Eph 4:32, Col 3:13
The Bible teaches punishment and vengeance - Gen 9:6, Ex 21:23-25,29, Lev 24;16,23

God is spirit - John 4:24
God has feet - Psa 18:9, arms - Jer 27:5, wings - Psa 36:7, eyes - Deut 11:12, Psa 34:15, a mouth - Isa 1:20, Deut 8:3, ears - 2 Chron 6:40, a nose - Ex 15:8, a heart - Gen 6:6, legs - Gen 3:8

Christians to obey authorities - Rom 13;1, 1 Pet 2:13- 14
Christians to obey God rather than authorities - Acts 5:29

Saul inquired of God, but God did not answer him - 1 Sam 28:6
Saul died because he did not seek guidance from God - 1 Chron 10:13,14

Drinking alcohol is acceptable - Deuteronomy 14:26, John 2:7-11, 1 Timothy 5:23
Drinking alcohol is not acceptable - Proverbs 20:1, 23:31-34, Hosea 4:11

Jesus judges - John 5:22,27, 9:39, 2 Corinthians 5:10
Jesus does not judge - John 8:15, 12:47


and one of the most important :

The Resurrection of Jesus
Who went to the tomb?

Matt - 2 Marys
Mark - 2 Marys and Salome
Luke - at least 5 women
John - Mary Magdalene

What was seen?

Matt - Earthquake with angel sitting outside on the recently-moved stone
Mark - Stone already moved and a young man sitting inside
Luke - Stone already moved with two men standing inside
John - Stone moved. No one seen on 1st visit, but two angels sitting inside after two earlier visits.

When did the woman/women leave to go to the tomb?

Matt - Towards dawn
Mark - Very early
Luke - At early dawn
John - Still dark (NB. John states it was still dark when Mary arrived at the tomb).

What did man/men/angel/angels say?

Matt - Jesus was risen and disciples to go to Galilee
Mark - As Matt
Luke - Jesus had risen
John - Asks why Mary is crying.

What do the women/woman do next?

Matt - They run away but meet Jesus who repeats angel's instruction
Mark - They flee and say nothing to anyone. This obviously contradicts the other three in which the women do go and tell the disciples (original Mark ended at 16:7)
Luke - They go and tell disciples
John - Mary meets Jesus and they talk.

What is first conversation with the risen Jesus?

Matt - Women on way from tomb
Luke - The two disciples on road to Emmaus
John - Mary Magdalene.

What was the time between the resurrection and the ascension?

Matt - At least the time to reach Galilee
Luke - Clearly one day only (see 24:13,33,36,50 - it is made very clear that Jesus rose, made all his appearances and ascended back to heaven on the same day)
John - At least a week accepting John 20 as the original end to the Gospel, but with the John 21 appendix the period was even longer as this has a Galilean appearance
Acts - 40 days.

AGAIN that is not all of it either.

AznBlade 10-Jan-2003 01:07

Quote:

Just a quick comment....Palestine is found in the bible in Joel chapter 3 verse 4, Exodus chapter 15 verse 14, Isaiah chapter 14 verse 29 and 31 King James Version.
Now if this isn't evidnece that men wrote the Bible for their own interests, i.e. Slavery, the slaughter of enemies, favor of the rich because only the poor would complain, killing of a non-virgin girl although it didn't apply to men, I don't know what is.

God delludes people so they deliberatley won't be saved? Now that doesn't seem all-forgiving to me. God all-knowing? He met Satan and didn't even know it, then ruined Job's life with a wager with the devil. Also I hope your circumsised cause God doesn't want you in heaven if you're not .
First off, this all depends how you take the bible. You are of course taking it literal. It may or may not meant to be taken that way.
Second, the bible has gone through many revisions and retranslations, so chances are that they are indeed flawed in some way.
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Quote:

How people believe in God is just beyond me,
A god that hides from us while he sits on puffy clouds and sends down 10 rules written in stone (what happened to those) and if we dont obey those rules we are sent down to hell!
a) Christians don't generally believe God as a physical being
b) Again, it depends on if you take the bible literally or metaphorically. Also, the bible is flawed, so translations may be off.
Quote:

I have heard people say "well what made all this shit around us!"
Can you imagine FOREVER? The time between your birth and now is NOTHING compared to the time & rolls of dice it took to stumble upon this galaxy we live in today.
Elements found here on Earth are found out in space (to the idiot who asked about the creation of water, you need a science book.)
So? Elements were formed in early beginnings of the universe. Elements have been formed by people starting from Stanely Miller's experiements creating urea, lactic acids, amino acids, etc...

How does this deny the existance of a higher being?
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Quote:

I think the whole thing about Jesus is BS, why does he never show himsefl. the chiristians have many times said that god will come back and take the people that belives in him to heaven . Well, how long have you guys waited now 2003 years... in my school it's about 20 people of 350 that belives in god, so the future doesn't look good for the church.
a) Maybe the time for Jesus' revelation isn't time yet, or you may be taking the words wrong. The end of time for you is when you die. Maybe Jesus comes when you die, there's no way to know.
b) The ammount of people that believe in your school doesn't compare to those around the world because it isn't a random census. Factors like location, popular societal trends, etc. all influence that.
Quote:

and btw. christans people is all brainwhased, it's been proven that it wasen't god that made the earth, get over it!
OK, then tell me how it was proven that there isn't a higher being that made the earth. I personally believe in proven sciences like evolution, etc. yet still believe in God. Please, tell me how I am brainwashed.

I would really like to see this. Also, just because events in the bible don't literally happen, doesn't mean they aren't metaphorical or hold some sort of allegorical sense. It also doesn't deny the existance of a higher being.

ghdfgsdrgsdfgdr 10-Jan-2003 05:35

I am an atheist although I know lots about the christian religion since I was involved with the church for 12 years going to Sunday school when I was younger and such. I read during church sermons and I have been confirmed.

Then one day I just went and thought hard about the christian god. I seen so many holes and so many conflicting things in the bible I stopped believing. Although every time some of these conflicting things are pointed out they are always a "translation error" or something of that nature. I believe the bible is just a collection of stories that some people wrote as words of wisdom and was later warped into a religion. The place where I live has many christians. I would say about 95% of everyone who lives on my town are a devoted christian. I am often told I have no faith for my beliefs. To this I say, "What is the christian definition of faith? I believe faith should be entrusted to yourself and those you love. The christian definition is just to follow an unseen all powerful deity believing they will get an afterlife." In my opinion the afterlife (heaven) is just a lure to get people to join christianity and hell is just to keep them in check once they have joined. Although it may not be a large factor now a long time ago people would join christianity because it promised an afterlife. Often I am also told "Prove to me God doesn't exist." I shouldn't have to prove god doesn't exist. It should be proven that it does exist. I having to proove that god doesn't exist would be like being guilty until proven innocent. I have also been called lazy since I am not christian. I really believe religion should not be a chore and if it is for you then you need to look into it more. I have even been called satanic and all that goddy junk. Christianity has done more bad than it will ever do good. (crusades, halting scientific progress(ie. Galileo), murdering people because of thier beliefs/forcing them to convert) I do not hate christian people. I am good friends with many of them. What I do hate is when some of them try to get me into church or convert me.

Dilbert 10-Jan-2003 06:43

christians have done more good than evil. i.e, we lead in charities, help ppl live better lives, help people help others, increase in morals, etc.

and heaven is not and should not be the main goal for christians. think of heaven as a bonus. even if there was no heaven, i would still be a christian.

as well, u should PROVE that there is no God/god/godess, unless u can explain everything in the universe. we can explain the creation, etc with our religion. atheist scientists cant even agree (christians argue as well, but not to this extent) on the basis of creation, nor is it even close to it.

And Pheonix BD, i would reply but i have life (; hehe... but more importantly, u cant say the old testament and the new testaments contradict each other as jesus retaught many things (forgive rather than revenge, do good that others may know u r a christian but dont go around showing off, give to God wat belongs to God, and give to men wat belongs to men, etc)

ton4052 10-Jan-2003 07:40

Phoenix BD...

why do u spend so much time disproving God existence...
why do u even care to explain to all of us...
why do pplz come to the forum and debate about it...

i kno why all the christian come to this forum...LOVE..one LOVE...

check it out

there is a verse in the Bible that say it all...

So that your faith might not rest on men's wisdom, but on God's power. 1Cort 2:5

but yes...we are to examine if our faith...and see if it is true...but Phoenix BD...contradictions...lol

for example the first...i don't wanna go through them all.
God's kingdom is not for the rich or the poor...it is for his people. the verse in Job...if you read carefully...one of Job's friend is trying to tempt him...but what riches...that is the question...to non-Christian...it is money...BUT...to christian...it is not money...being rich is plain...being reward in heaven...lol

second one...

For we are God's workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.Eph 2:10

no...We are not to show off...but we are to do good works because we believe...if i have the time to...i will shoot down all the contradictions...but is it 2AM now...

also...do u take bits of the Bible to prove it wrong...no...do u take bits of science to prove things...no
you take everything...not just a verse...sometimes the whole paragraph...sometimes the who chapter...heck...soemtimes...the whole book...that is why you can't prove something just like that if u take bits...

how come we can't post numbers?

Hurleyy 10-Jan-2003 07:53

This is a Do You Believe in God? thread. So I am posting evidence why I tihnk there isnt a god.

O you guys dont just dont get it do you? The bible is supposed to be 100% accurate document because god "wrote" it. Now I have pointed out many errors, and all you guys can say is that those are only a couple verses, or thats not necassarily what that means. Well you DONT know what it means. And without verses the bible would be nothing.

Now not 1 of you still could explain to me why god was breaking his own commandments? I guess only he is allowed to commit mass murder, and why would he want men to be able to keep slaves? because he didnt write the damn thing men did! Also a translational error oculdnt account for the WIDE variety of stories each gospel tells after Jesus died.

Just like true Christians, you failed to acknowledge the facts when I put them out.

ton4052 10-Jan-2003 08:18

hehe...

first off...God let evil happen in this world...
He could have created 3 situtations...

1) NOTHING...nobody...nada
2) A world fill with robots...robots because we are to do everything good...
3) This world...where we can choose but not choose the consequences...

Slaves...
men are slaves in sin...
but in the Bible days...you rather be a slave and be fed than be a homeless and not knowing when ur next meal is...
slaves were well-treated back then...except in Egypt...that is why God lead his people of Egypt...hehe

granted not all translating are the best...so how can u translate my english book to chinese...hehe

anyways...if u believe that translating is a factor...then lets everybody convert to Islam...the Koran is in Mulism...so it is never translated incorrectly since the first language of the Koran was Mulism...but no...do you know why...

Mulsim states that it is by God's will if u become "saved"
Budda states u work your way up
Hinda states there are many gods...god of water...heck even u your self are a god...lol
BUT Christian states that Jesus the founder of the religion not only claims He is Man...BUT ALSO GOD...it is time to not rely on your knowledge...not everything in life can be explain by science...but the choice is up to you...

ton4052 10-Jan-2003 08:25

Quote:

(Originally posted by Phoenix BD)

This is a Do You Believe in God? thread. So I am posting evidence why I tihnk there isnt a god.

O you guys dont just dont get it do you? The bible is supposed to be 100% accurate document because god "wrote" it. Now I have pointed out many errors, and all you guys can say is that those are only a couple verses, or thats not necassarily what that means. Well you DONT know what it means. And without verses the bible would be nothing.

Now not 1 of you still could explain to me why god was breaking his own commandments? I guess only he is allowed to commit mass murder, and why would he want men to be able to keep slaves? because he didnt write the damn thing men did! Also a translational error oculdnt account for the WIDE variety of stories each gospel tells after Jesus died.

Just like true Christians, you failed to acknowledge the facts when I put them out.
yes your pointed out many errors...lol...IF YOU TAKE IT ONE VERSE AT A TIME...DUH
look at phyics and biology
phyics states without an outside force...an object in rest stays in reat...then can u explain the BIG BANG THEORY. but if you put it all together...it "might" make sense...

you can't take verse by verse...you have to take the whole passage or chapter...besides did u ever read the Bible...i did...how do you know history is real?...cuz u read it...
seriously...why did u even care if i believe what i believe...why do i care...i care cuz i LOVE YOU...
heck u seems more to be a Christian to me...no offense... :lol

Hurleyy 10-Jan-2003 08:35

I was Catholic going to a Catholic school. Just because I dont believe in a god odesnt mean I am not a good person. I would often in trouble at school when a Priest would in for religion class. I would point out all the contradicitons, and why there is no god, and I often got in trouble for it.

LOL.. Heaven is supposed to be the Christians ultimate goal. To be with God, thats all what its about. We are all just little plastic men to him. Its like a game as I see it. Anyone who passes the test gets in. So whats the big differance between God and the devil? I don't see any.

The point is that every verse SHOULD be correct, as it comes from god, the all-perfect, all-powerful, all-knowledgable being. So if a few verses are correct, than why can't they all be?

And you STILL didn't answer why he breaks his own commandments. (;

Drizzt 10-Jan-2003 09:29

well the difference, you see, is that heaven is pleasurable. hell isn't. what god wants you to do takes an effort. what satan wants you to do is too easy. god is fair, just and doesnt lie. satan is exactly the opposite. god is love, satan is hate. and i already reasoned with you why there would be some contradictions. why do you still repeat your statement?

Hurleyy 10-Jan-2003 16:16

Because you don't answer it. I am not talking about the contradictions in the verses anymore, because you just think they are translation errors. I am asking you why God breaks his own commandments, then writes about them in the bible?

Shival 10-Jan-2003 23:25

You didn't read this whole thread I see I'll direct you back to my post that answers your questions:

http://forums.utopiatemple.com/showt...0&pagenumber=6

Drizzt 10-Jan-2003 23:37

phoenix bd, ive already answered your question in the creation vs. evolution thread

Hurleyy 10-Jan-2003 23:39

Yeah I read that. So you choose not to follow all of Gods rules? So then obviously you believe in a different God than written in the Bible.

Drizzt 10-Jan-2003 23:47

not that post. alright ill post it here..

Quote:

There are certain aspects of God that we shouldn't follow. for example, jealousy. god is a jealous god (cant remember which verse), and he himself tells us not to be jealous. however, god came down here and set an example for us so that we can follow it.

Hurleyy 10-Jan-2003 23:49

Im sorry I just couldnt believe in a God that makes us follow something that he himself doesnt. Bit hypocritical dont ya think?

Lord Nemesis 11-Jan-2003 00:00

My awnser is even more simple as the question: "No".

ghdfgsdrgsdfgdr 11-Jan-2003 00:00

Quote:

There are certain aspects of God that we shouldn't follow. for example, jealousy. god is a jealous god (cant remember which verse), and he himself tells us not to be jealous. however, god came down here and set an example for us so that we can follow it.


so basically your arguement is that anything good in the bible is good and anything bad in the bible is also good because god was showing you not to do it?

So if god went and destroyed a major city to show you not to do it you would be O.K. with that?



Quote:

as well, u should PROVE that there is no God/god/godess, unless u can explain everything in the universe. we can explain the creation, etc with our religion. atheist scientists cant even agree (christians argue as well, but not to this extent) on the basis of creation, nor is it even close to it.

and i see you chose to ignore some of the arguements in my post. Why is the onus on us to prove there isn't a god? Like my example before that would be if you were accused of a crime and you would be guilty until proven innocent before innocent until proven guilty. I hear all scientific facts must be proven so why not god?

God performed miracles in the bible to show people his power and the good he does. Where are these miracles now when god is being questioned more than ever?

And dont go saying that his miracles are through making people do good things. because as you said before god gave people free will and wouldnt make them do anything.

Hurleyy 11-Jan-2003 00:10

Lord Nemesis I dont understand what you mean.. You dont think its hypocritical or you dont believe in god?

Drizzt 11-Jan-2003 00:25

god is able to kill because god is able to judge. god is able to judge because god is omniscient. we, however, are not god, so we shouldnt kill. god is jealous because he wants us all to not be sinful and enter heaven. well, that's fine with me.

Hurleyy 11-Jan-2003 00:31

what is god jealous of? he is god after all isnt he? the only way to be jealous is if something is there to make you jalous.

you have it backwards. our existance is supposed to be reliant on god, not god reliant on us. i just busted you with your own religions teachings.

KnightOCrystals 11-Jan-2003 01:02

what i think
 
Ok, well i think that everyone has the right to believe anything they want, but heres what i think.

If you believe in god, i think that you believe in a fixed fate, in which you will end up in hell or heaven or reincarnate...etc for any other religion in the world...

(for me) i believe that we choose our own path, good or evil, we both have them in us, you just decide which you want to take. Not believing in a god or religion doesnt make us any bad or good as any other person, its what we do and enterect with others that affects if we are good or bad. We have the abitity to learn, love, destroy/save lives, cause order or chaos but whatever we do we face the consequences. All in all, i dont believe that god really exists, but i think that believing in something makes us have the willpower to do things we could never imagine before. (but you dont have to believe in a religion, you could believe in your friends, or someone special that you trust, as long as you believe in him/her/it)

any replies are welcome :) good or bad :b

lymph node 11-Jan-2003 01:14

does it matter? really?

AznBlade 11-Jan-2003 01:19

Quote:

(Originally posted by PhoenixBD 25)

This is a Do You Believe in God? thread. So I am posting evidence why I tihnk there isnt a god.

O you guys dont just dont get it do you? The bible is supposed to be 100% accurate document because god "wrote" it.
Who said that? I'm a Christian and I don't think anything close to that. In fact, I acknowledge it was written by people and probably has many errors over retranslations and revisions, and probably holds a large ammount of allegory.
Quote:

Now I have pointed out many errors, and all you guys can say is that those are only a couple verses, or thats not necassarily what that means. Well you DONT know what it means. And without verses the bible would be nothing.
Well, first...
a) You don't know what it means either, so there is no conclusive answer.
b) You're assuming all Christians think the same way and the entire existance of God relies on us thinking the bible 100% accurate... It doesn't work that way. If you want to debate on existance of God, try finding points regarding logic and reason.
Here's some additional contradictions if you haven't found them already. It's one of my favorites:
http://www.cygnus-study.com/pagecon.shtml
And here's some answers to many of your contradictions. It's the site that has annoyed me the most. They may not be answers you'll take, but they do give another perspective.
http://www.answersingenesis.org/home/area/qa.asp
Quote:

Now not 1 of you still could explain to me why god was breaking his own commandments?
I tried to explain, but it seems you either missed it or decided to skip over it because you see what you want to see. Not everything is in black and white.
Quote:

I guess only he is allowed to commit mass murder, and why would he want men to be able to keep slaves?
Did you ever consider that they could've been written as fables or in a allegorical sense with a deeper meaning? Or that parts of things were later added in as revisions?
Quote:

because he didnt write the damn thing men did! Also a translational error oculdnt account for the WIDE variety of stories each gospel tells after Jesus died.
The general Christian view is that God never dictated or wrote anything. It was supposed to be an inspiration. God didn't control other people and make them write it, as it would be a violation of free will. The writers had free will to write as they please. Following the Inspiration is up to them.
Quote:

Just like true Christians, you failed to acknowledge the facts when I put them out.
Look, if you want to offend Christians like that, take it to PM. Now, tell me why a "true Christian" would fail to acknowledge your "facts"? Those aren't facts, they're opinions because they're based on a)context and b)perspective, and we're debating over something which itself isn't even a fact. Why don't you get it through your thick head to actually read what other people post and consider different perspectives and ideas for once?

AznBlade 11-Jan-2003 01:26

UO
 
Quote:

(Originally posted by PhoenixBD 25)
what is god jealous of? he is god after all isnt he? the only way to be jealous is if something is there to make you jalous.
...Did you even read my post?
Quote:

I was Catholic going to a Catholic school. Just because I dont believe in a god odesnt mean I am not a good person. I would often in trouble at school when a Priest would in for religion class. I would point out all the contradicitons, and why there is no god, and I often got in trouble for it.
Well, not all Christians have a Catholic view.

I'm basically going through the same thing you were. I'm a Catholic going to a Catholic school in the process of being confirmed. I'm forced to go by parents. I questioned, and people started getting mad at me for doing so, until I reached the 8th grade. That's when I started getting answers and challeneges rather than anger.
Quote:

LOL.. Heaven is supposed to be the Christians ultimate goal. To be with God, thats all what its about. We are all just little plastic men to him. Its like a game as I see it. Anyone who passes the test gets in. So whats the big differance between God and the devil? I don't see any.
Why do you think that? There are other views besides that, but why do you choose that one?
Quote:

The point is that every verse SHOULD be correct, as it comes from god, the all-perfect, all-powerful, all-knowledgable being. So if a few verses are correct, than why can't they all be?
Because it's been retranslated and revised, and in a general belief, it wasn't written or dictated, but isnpired.
Quote:

And you STILL didn't answer why he breaks his own commandments.
I refer you to the post you probably didn't read earlier...
http://forums.utopiatemple.com/showt...&pagenumber=14
It's the second post right after yours. If you could rebutt the points, maybe I can get a view on what and why you take things the way you do.

Hurleyy 11-Jan-2003 01:27

No they are physical evidence of the Bible being wrong. I read your posts about "having to look deeper" and that is not an answer.

About my true Christian statement, you guys fali to acknowledge that the bible could be 100% BS, just as much as I fail to acknowledge your answers of "well hes god so we dont understand what he is saying."

I look at god from an equal standpoint, as if he were a person, as its the only way to judge him. And he is not a good person.

lymph node 11-Jan-2003 01:43

are we just talking about god in the christian sense, or can it be another god?

AznBlade 11-Jan-2003 01:44

Quote:

(Originally posted by PhoenixBD 25)
No they are physical evidence of the Bible being wrong. I read your posts about "having to look deeper" and that is not an answer.
Well, then post why the bible can't be allegoircal. I'm merely stating a possibility.
Quote:

About my true Christian statement, you guys fali to acknowledge that the bible could be 100% BS, just as much as I fail to acknowledge your answers of "well hes god so we dont understand what he is saying."
That's not what I said. The bible can by 100% BS, but nobody will know until conclusive evidence can be formed. Until then, I will hold my convictions.
Quote:

I look at god from an equal standpoint, as if he were a person, as its the only way to judge him. And he is not a good person.
Based on what? Evidence you say isn't true? If you base your convictions on something you say is false, doesn't that invalidate what you say?

Why is it so hard to think os anything symbolic, metaphoric, or as flawed?

WARDOGzx 11-Jan-2003 01:48

I absolutely do not believe in God, no higher being that watches over our lives, no soul or spirit. I believe that when you die you simply stop existing.

I am the biggest atheist you could find.

And I am not saying all that because I am a little kid who wants to llok smart, I used to beleve in God and I arrived a long way to my beliefs (disbeliefs actually).

It's not that i don't want to believe i just don't see how could i talk myself logically into doing that

Notice, the question wasn't "do you think God exists?"
it was "do you beieve in God?"; there is a huge difference

Drizzt 11-Jan-2003 02:40

its interesting how that the more scientists study the universe the more they believe that there is a god

johnlin 11-Jan-2003 04:03

Hi, going thru some of the msgs here and found some really interesting stuff. I'm a Christian and believe that there's a God above. How do i know there is one is by faith. Baing a Christian for a few years now.. God have shown Himself real. U guys out there.. don't u think there is more meaning to life? don't u felt the emptyness and u long to fill that? A lot of u know parts of the Bible..not the whole. I can answers some of those question. In the days to come, u'll see evidence of the existence of God. and what's the harm of embracing Christianity and get to know God better. what's ur fear? don't base ur belief on ppl even like priest, cos men re imperfect.

johnlin 11-Jan-2003 04:25

[quote](Originally posted by PhoenixBD 25)

The rich cannot enter heaven; the kingdom of God is for the poor - Luke ##:##, Matt ##:##, James ##:##
God rewards by bestowing wealth and disciples can be rich - Job ##:##, Matt 27:57

it doen't say the rich cannot enter, but it's hard if u re rich and ur possessions re ur God. Cos Jesus said that after a young rich men treasure what he had more than God. And kingdom of God is those who re poor in spirit. That mean humble.

Let others see your good works - Matt ##:##
Do not let others see your good works - Matt ##:##,4

I can't read the reference for this. But from what I understand let others see ur good works but don't show them for our own glory.

Women are to be obedient and submissive to men - 1 Cor ##:##,7-9, ##:##-35, Eph ##:##-24, 1 Tim ##:##-15, Titus ##:##-5, 1 Pet ##:##
There are no sexes in Christ: both are "one" - Gal ##:##

Of course there re sexes physically but not in God. We're all His sons

God tells Zedekiah he will be captured but die peacefully - Jer ##:##-5
Zedekiah is capture, has his eyes taken out and is imprisoned to the day he dies - Jer 52:10-11

Don't know bout this

It is wrong to judge others - Matt ##:##, Luke ##:##, Rom ##:##, ##:##
Others can be judged - Matt ##:##-33, John ##:##, Rom ##:##,29-32

don't know where is this.

Martyred believers cry out for vengeance - Rev ##:##-10
Believers should love/forgive their enemies - Matt ##:##, ##:##,##:##-35, Luke ##:##-28

We should forgive our enemies. leaving the jugdment to God.

God instructs man to live on vegetarian diet - Gen ##:##-30
Any food can be eaten - Gen ##:##, Acts ##:##-13, Rom ##:##
dunno where u got that God said we must live on vegetarian diet

Only God is to be called 'father' - Matt ##:##
Various people can be called 'father' - 1 Cor ##:##, Eph ##:##-4, 1 John ##:##-14, Matt ##:##
ya, many can be called earthly fathers but there is only one Father in heaven

Believers will be deceived into leaving the faith - 1 Tim ##:##, Heb ##:##-6, Gal ##:##, Rev ##:##
God will protect believers from being led astray - Psa ##:##, ##:##,32,33, John ##:##-29
God'll protect but He has given a choice. He don't control us like robots

Christ is the only master - Matt ##:##
Employers are masters - Eph ##:##,9
employers re our 'earthly' masters but above all is Christ

Food offered to idols should be avoided - Acts ##:##
It is of no importance if food offered to idols is eaten - 1 Cor ##:##,4,7,8
Yes, it doen't matter cos our God is greater but should be avoided cos it may cos other ppl to fall after seeing us eating it and also what if one only eat food serve to idol?

The rich cannot enter heaven; the kingdom of God is for the poor - Luke ##:##, Matt ##:##, James ##:##
God rewards by bestowing wealth and disciples can be rich - Job ##:##, Matt 27:57
answered this earlier

God is spirit - John ##:##
God has feet - Psa ##:##, arms - Jer ##:##, wings - Psa ##:##, eyes - Deut ##:##, Psa ##:##, a mouth - Isa ##:##, Deut ##:##, ears - 2 Chron ##:##, a nose - Ex ##:##, a heart - Gen ##:##, legs - Gen ##:##
what is a spirit to u?

Christians to obey authorities - Rom 13;1, 1 Pet ##:##- 14
Christians to obey God rather than authorities - Acts ##:##
ya, obey authorities but if it is against God's commandment the obey God

This re some of the things I can answer

ghdfgsdrgsdfgdr 11-Jan-2003 04:34

It seems the bible just takes on whatever role you need it to when you want to prove something doesn't it? Its supposed to be all true, its supposed to be all false, its suppost to teach morals, its supposed to teach history, its supposed to be written by men, its supposed to be written by god, its supposed to be written by god entering men, it supposed to show us what not to do by god doing it, its supposed to show us to do what god does, it says god is like a man, it says god is a perfect divine being, it says killing and war is wrong, even though there are many incidents in it of god supporting war and killing.

Its true, false, wrong, right all in the same sentence of the same book as you have stated in your arguements. This does not seem a very goof source of proof does it?

The point I am making is that the bible can be translated so many different ways you could justify raping your own mother with it.

And if you try and put down my arguements oh no thats not what my arguement meant. It was a metaphor, it was symbolic, i was showing you not to argue etc. etc...

And you tell me I am stupid for argueing against christianity, look at the topic, its supposed to be an arguement.

johnlin 11-Jan-2003 04:42

NO, not true. It's men who try to justfiy their actions

Shadowdaggerz 11-Jan-2003 04:59

hmm... I didn't read all the messages, I was tired of reading after the first thousand posts lol. But my message is completely off the topic everyone seems to be following. See, firstly, I'm agnostic. I believe that the existance of a deity (not just a God) cannot be proven or disproven. You can point out incessantly the many holes in the bible, or the Raman, or any other holy scripture/book/scroll/etc, but the fact is you can't disprove the existance of a deity. And, generally, neither can you prove it. So, if you can't prove it or disprove it, what is everyone talknig about in here ? Simple. Beliefs. Some people believe he exists, some believe he doesn't, and others (like me) think it can be neither proven nor disproven. Thus, I'm agnostic. And bo, my rant doesn't end at that.
Secondly, I'm a moderate nihilist. If anyone here knows what a nihilist is, I would be supremely unsuprised if you had a completely wrong idea of just what a nihilist actually is. See, let me show you a few references from a dictionary:

Quote:

(Example a - Extreme Nihilism)
ni·hil·ism
(Philosophy.)
1. An extreme form of skepticism that denies all existence.
2. The belief that destruction of existing political or social institutions is necessary for future improvement.
3. A delusion, experienced in some mental disorders, that the world or one's mind, body, or self does not exist.
Now you can probably see why extreme nihilism is often associated with terrorism, hate crimes, etc. But the thing is, not all nihilists are extreme nihilists. Just like not all islamics are extreme islamics (extreme islam... terrorism... Bin laden... sound familiar?). There's moderate nihilism, ie "average" nihilism (just like the "average" islam isn't anti-western world terrorism, it's a normal, ancient, and sound religion.). Note: You won't find the correct meaning of nihilism in any American dictionary, there's been too many crimes in the name of nihilism there. I already looked.

Moderate nihilism is the concept of denial of the existance of truth, or of good and evil. In other words, a moderate nihilist believes that 'good' and 'evil' are human concepts and not an innate nature of existance. They all deny that truth can be known. (No smartarse responce: 2+2=4 is true, but we're not talking the same kind of truth here. corectness is always truth, but truth isn't always correctness. :lol) Anyway... As I was saying, morality is (according to moderate nihilism) a human concept, and not an innate nature of existance as many religions claim. Therefore, crime can be punished only by humans. Karma, divine punishment, hell, etc don't, according to moderate nihilism, exist. That's not saying you should go out and kill a few ppl you don't like. The point is, what we do is in our own hands, we can't leave it some pure good supreme being, or hope the 'innate good' inside all humans (which many religions, including Catholicism, denies exists), will take care of it. Then again, you have to remember that moderate nihilism is not a religion. In fact, if someone were to stufy it's ideas they would recognize that even the truth of moderate nihilism cannot be absolutely known.
Believe what you will. But as for me, I'm an agnostic moderate nihilist.

Btw, just to add something to the actual topic here... I'm reading alot of "The universe was created by God, God created God, God is eternal." But isn't it possible the universe is eternal ? Who says it was ever created in the first place ? Creationism, big bang theory, both assume there was beginning. Creationism: I'll leave arguing against that to the atheists... :lol The Big Bang theory ? It wasn't the beginning of the universe, it was simply the beginning of matter and energy as we know it. What if, before the Big Bang (who came up with the name, anyway?!), there was a single infinite quantum 'superatom'. This 'superatom', for some reason or another, destabilizes. Maybe there a uncountable 'superatoms' throughout the universe, and that one is simply the first to explode. Or else they exploded elsewhere, we just don't know it. After all, the universe is infinite. That's quite a lot of space... So much that the human mind, after 3 billion years of evolution and 30 000 years as a human mind on a limited size planet cannot comprehend.
Wow... 10 000 character limit... I plan to meet that limit. Bah, never mind... I guess 4543 characters is enough for now... I'd continue my theory, but now I got bored so I'm gonna do something else. See ya !

ghdfgsdrgsdfgdr 11-Jan-2003 05:16

Quote:

Hi, going thru some of the msgs here and found some really interesting stuff. I'm a Christian and believe that there's a God above. How do i know there is one is by faith. Baing a Christian for a few years now.. God have shown Himself real. U guys out there.. don't u think there is more meaning to life? don't u felt the emptyness and u long to fill that? A lot of u know parts of the Bible..not the whole. I can answers some of those question. In the days to come, u'll see evidence of the existence of God. and what's the harm of embracing Christianity and get to know God better. what's ur fear? don't base ur belief on ppl even like priest, cos men re imperfect.

I was a christian longer than you have been so far and probably now more about it than you.Like I said before I have been confirmed, baptized, gone to chruch, read during church sermons. And my expierence after becoming an athiest is that you see things much more open mindedly.

The human mind needs some form of explanation for nearly everything to understand it. Religion was created to fill that need for the mind. People used it to explain unknown events also. Some religions have gods for many different things. Like a ran god who would spread water down to the world. This is how they explained how weather happened. I never said anything about thinking the creation theory was right. It is just another attempt to explain the unknown from a scientific perspective. But please remember that in the scientific perspective the big bang theory is just that, a theory. For a christian the creation theory of god creating the earth is regarded as a fact. My opinion is that there is no way to explain a great deal of things in life and if the human society would quit spending so much of thier time on such matters we would have a great deal more time to solve actual problems in the world.


To comment on the previous post I had never heard of nihilism. But now that you have explained it to me i suppose I have the same views on the world.

avatars 11-Jan-2003 05:40

I Know God i real and and the bible is for real im a christian even tough i don't ack like one somtimes thats why i don't try to tell non-beliver how they should ack if i act just like them sometimes. My only real caomplaint of some people at least in the USA is that they want nothing to God intill somthing bad happens take 9/11 for exapmle they pretty much wanted no pray in any public school then 9/11 happens and they tell everyone to turn to God witch i have no prob wit cuz i think alot of people got saved by the fact that they did finally turn to God.

avatars 11-Jan-2003 05:48

Im a christian and somtimes i don't ack like one so that why i don't try to tell non-belivers about God when i ack just like them somtimes. I have one complaint about the USA they don't want anything to do with God intill somthing bad happens like 9/11 then they tell everyone to turn to God witch doesn't bother me at all cuz i think alot of people got saved and became belivers of God witch in way maybe it works better that way or maybe God did that for a reason to tell people that he is the one and the only one.

avatars 11-Jan-2003 05:51

Didn't mean to put both of them my computer froze the first time and i tought it didn't go through so i wrote a new one

asunti2506 11-Jan-2003 06:08

Quote:

(Originally posted by azndmx)

FOOOllls of course deres god...
go read the bible.......
:lol
We know God exists because the Bible says so.
We know the Bible is true because the Bible said so.

Master Chief 11-Jan-2003 06:16

Yes, I believe in God. How could you NOT believe in God? You mean to tell me that this planet, this solar system, this galaxy, this universe, our existence is just random chance? It's just not possible.

asunti2506 11-Jan-2003 06:17

Quote:

(Originally posted by lethallama)

Yes, I believe in God. How could you NOT believe in God? You mean to tell me that this planet, this solar system, this galaxy, this universe, our existence is just random chance? It's just not possible.
Rule 1. Anything is possible. There is nothing you mentioned that is not unexplainable by science.

Drizzt 11-Jan-2003 06:36

"http://www.answersingenesis.org"
that reminds me... aznblade, what happened to dravid? i havnt seen him posting in the creation vs. evolution thread recently

ghdfgsdrgsdfgdr 11-Jan-2003 07:23

that site you listed, of what i read, just poorly explained the evolution theory and said that it couldn't be true because...

...well they didn't really give a reason now did they.

they just said some junk about a shrimp losing its sight in an environment where it doesn't need it proves evolution is wrong. I am not saying evolution is proven either its just that that site doesn't go on to give a reason or anything in that article. If scientific theoris can be disproved by such a small error how come the god creation theory cannot be disproved by huge holes in it?

jess 11-Jan-2003 08:26

Here's my outlook on god and religions. Don't know if there's one like it here already cause I'm not readin all that stuff.

When Man was smart enough to think he needed something to blame storms, drought, natural disasters. So he started worshiping many gods. Sea god, fire god, stuff like that. Later you get these crazy dudes saying there deciphels of the one true god. Religions start to split as the pshyco's and there followers grow in numbers.

Since then Religion has been taken advantage of and abused by goverments, individual, terrorists, radical groups, to justify there wrongs. The Human race needs some kind motivation to fight eachother.

Lord Menchalior 11-Jan-2003 10:33

Religion is man made, that is why its failing... I do belive in God. God only asked faith, he never said: Form a religion for me... Religion became out of mans own idea and formed in many years...

Yes I do belive in God and Christ but I do not belive in religion...

Hurleyy 11-Jan-2003 11:09

This is the main reason that I believe all orhanized forms of Christianity are wrong. Jesus said, God is everywhere, pick up a rock and he is there, split a log and he is there. Well now then why do we need church? God did not ask for all of this. Jesus flipped the collecting tables in the synagogue because he didnt want any money in the house of god. So why is there a collection at church?

If there was anything true about god, man has manipulated to his advantage. I can find human beings more just than god, why dont you go worship them?

D Man 11-Jan-2003 11:16

Quote:

(Originally posted by PhoenixBD 25)

So why is there a collection at church?

To send to drought caused starvation in India, to pay for electricity in your church, to help a poor family whose father just died and now they have no income?

Hurleyy 11-Jan-2003 11:20

No actually a majority of that money doesnt go to charities (;. They go so the priests can live some nice luxurious lives with cooks, house cleaners, and secretaries. They go to buy new pews, a new statue of Jesus, possibly a new ring for the pastor.

D Man 11-Jan-2003 11:35

Quote:

(Originally posted by PhoenixBD 25)

No actually a majority of that money doesnt go to charities (;. They go so the priests can live some nice luxurious lives with cooks, house cleaners, and secretaries. They go to buy new pews, a new statue of Jesus, possibly a new ring for the pastor.
How would you know that the majority goes to this, and the minority goes to the other?

Hurleyy 11-Jan-2003 11:42

lol.. you forget i went to catholic school for 10 years, the church was right next to the school, and i was an altar boy for 6 years. i know what thy spend the money on. th priests in my church had a 3 story victorian house, full with cooks, secretaries, and house keepers. They also got free food, clothing and everything else they wanted.

vaenrowl 11-Jan-2003 11:57

whaT?
of course there's no god, if god made men, what made god? men?
it's just like "what comes first, a chicken or an egg?"

well i also believe that the bible or things like that wus made up by men and puh-lease... worshipping is wasting time!

We know God exists because the Bible says so.
We know the Bible is true because the Bible said so.
LOL

Drizzt 11-Jan-2003 12:41

god made time, it doesnt matter how god came to existance, so its beyond our imagination what god is.
actually... this is as simple as it can get.
we know god exists because he's showed himself to us
we know the bible is true because god said so.

Squee I 11-Jan-2003 13:03

Oh well... you don't HAVE to believe
 
God said that He would give the sight to see Him to only a few... and if you don't see it, try. God IS there. And for you to say He doesn't exist is folly. If you quote all the anti-god arguements, I simply say to you: Have faith.

But take this arguement:

If there is a God:
and you believe in God, you go to heaven.
if you don't, you go to Hell

If there isn't a God
and you believe in God, you die and disappear just like the atheist
if you don't the same happens.

SO logic says that you should at least TRY to believe....

I personally am a Christian and proud.

Everyone makes mistakes, even the best Christian. The thing is - GOD FORGIVES US. That is what Jesus dying on the cross was all about.

Oh yeah, and the bible was right about Jesus. Contemporary historians all talk about Jesus, even Romans and Jews who would not normally say that someone existed when they didn't.

And another point. Paul was originally a Jew. He persecuted Christians before he was converted on the road to Damascus. And later, he was prepared to suffer AND EVEN TO DIE for what he believed, that Jesus was the Messiah and rose from the dead. Surely, if it was a lie, he woudn't have wanted to
suffer and die for a lie... would you? You'd say: "No! NO! Its all a lie!! ITS ALL A LIE!!!"
You wouldn't want to die.

But as I said, some people have hardened their hearts to the Lord, and will not listen. I just hope you eventually change your mind before it is too late.

The peace of the Lord be with you.

Drizzt 11-Jan-2003 13:17

Quote:

(Originally posted by asunti2506)

Rule 1. Anything is possible. There is nothing you mentioned that is not unexplainable by science.
there are too many things unexplainable by science. a biggie: right vs. wrong. the most common issue in our lives. science in no way explains this. religion explains this clearly and fully, though

Squee I 11-Jan-2003 14:22

A very good point there Drizzt...

Shadowdaggerz 11-Jan-2003 15:53

Quote:

(Originally posted by Lord Drizzt)

there are too many things unexplainable by science. a biggie: right vs. wrong. the most common issue in our lives. science in no way explains this. religion explains this clearly and fully, though
Science has explained it, you know. You'll find endless information about 'right' or 'wrong' if you study psychology. According to what I believe (moderate nihilism, in case you didn't read my post), right and wrong (ie, good and evil) are nothing but concepts of the human mind.

Black Hole Son 11-Jan-2003 16:00

Quote:

Yes, I believe in God. How could you NOT believe in God? You mean to tell me that this planet, this solar system, this galaxy, this universe, our existence is just random chance? It's just not possible.
i just don't believe in him,it is that simple.and it could be just a random chance.

shiner 11-Jan-2003 16:10

Question 1: why would a pefect god create a universe with so much evil?

Anwer 1/Question 2: why would a pefect god create a universe at al?

Anwer 2: A perfect god knows all, sees all, can all, etc.
Well, if the god is perfect, it has no, absolutly none, imperfections in it reach. The god is perfect so its reach is limitless. Human is not perfect, therefor the existence of a perfect god is not possible.

james111 11-Jan-2003 16:19

there are alot of movies out that ive seen about this subject.. where they prove most scientific beliefs of things wrong.. but like the ice age for example a perfect example of noah's flood there were mammoths that died with unchewed food still in their mouth and that is because of noahs flash flood(it explains it in detail in the movie) and the grand canyon wasnt eroded away over millions apon millions of years it was also massively eroded because of the flood they took a piece of rock to one of those carbon dater people and he said it was say 500 million years old and then they took it to a differant one and they said like 3 billion.. there is big controversy between what scientists "prove" and what they think they know

james111 11-Jan-2003 16:22

and also there is a bug that spits out fire by chemical rwactions inside it.. it cause the reaction when the 2 sacs of 2 differant chemicals meet at its moouth when it sprays.. if the whole darwin theory of things evolving.. how did this bug exist becauseat the beginning the chemicals would of been mixed together which would cause little explosions of dead bugs.. they wouldnt be able to reproduse and they would all die off... but that little bug exists which means that that gorilla in africa isnt my great great great great great grandpa

james111 11-Jan-2003 16:25

and yes i believe in god and you better not make him mad :P

and dude when god created earth it was perfect. then satan left god and made adam and eve sin which created evil. god made us with a free will so that we can decide right from wrong and make our own decisions about it. if you want the "perfect little world" then go worship greek mythology and read about their golden age

shiner 11-Jan-2003 16:37

Quote:

(Originally posted by james111)

and also there is a bug that spits out fire by chemical rwactions inside it.. it cause the reaction when the 2 sacs of 2 differant chemicals meet at its moouth when it sprays.. if the whole darwin theory of things evolving.. how did this bug exist becauseat the beginning the chemicals would of been mixed together which would cause little explosions of dead bugs.. they wouldnt be able to reproduse and they would all die off...
that could be 1 post but ok:
First the bug, then a strong poison, then the resistant mouth and after that comes the fire.

Quote:

(Originally posted by james111)

and yes i believe in god and you better not make him mad :P
well, by asking us this question, we do not.

Quote:

(Originally posted by james111)

and dude when god created earth it was perfect. then satan left god and made adam and eve sin which created evil. god made us with a free will so that we can decide right from wrong and make our own decisions about it. if you want the "perfect little world" then go worship greek mythology and read about their golden age
You mis the point: Something that is perfect can not coexist with something imperfect. The perfect thing would not be perfect then.

ghdfgsdrgsdfgdr 11-Jan-2003 17:12

Quote:

and dude when god created earth it was perfect. then satan left god and made adam and eve sin which created evil. god made us with a free will so that we can decide right from wrong and make our own decisions about it. if you want the "perfect little world" then go worship greek mythology and read about their golden age
The devil never made Adam and Eve sin. He just tempted Eve. If Eve was perfect how did she make a sin in the first place? And also neither of them knew anything of right or wrong. Even though they were told not to eat from the tree how could they be comprehend what they did was wrong? Why did god even make the sinful tree in a perfect garden? If God is so forgiving why did he throw out Adam and Eve for one mistake and then punish them further? For instance he made birth painful for women.

AznBlade 11-Jan-2003 17:26

sorry, double posted

AznBlade 11-Jan-2003 17:30

...3 things in these forums annoy me to a very high degree.
1) Extreme stereotypes
2) When people claim to know something they in fact are clueless about
3) When people try to argue with what they do not know

This thread seems to incorporate all of it.

Quote:

I Know God i real and and the bible is for real im a christian even tough i don't ack like one somtimes thats why i don't try to tell non-beliver how they should ack if i act just like them sometimes. My only real caomplaint of some people at least in the USA is that they want nothing to God intill somthing bad happens take 9/11 for exapmle they pretty much wanted no pray in any public school then 9/11 happens and they tell everyone to turn to God witch i have no prob wit cuz i think alot of people got saved by the fact that they did finally turn to God.
a) The US has a majority group of Christians
b) Prayer by law isn't allowed in public schools
c) Most Christians I know have had a lot to do with God before 9/11. How did you reach the conclusion that the US wants nothing to do until 9/11?
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Quote:

Yes, I believe in God. How could you NOT believe in God? You mean to tell me that this planet, this solar system, this galaxy, this universe, our existence is just random chance? It's just not possible.
The possibilities are endless, but in the end there is still a possibility.
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Quote:

If scientific theoris can be disproved by such a small error how come the god creation theory cannot be disproved by huge holes in it?
I myself don't believe most of the crap on the site, but will reapond to the last point you have.

Scientific theories are primarily used as fact. God is primarily used as faith. Facts are facts, they supposedly have one truth with no possibility of being wrong. Faith is faith, which differs from person to person.

Before I go on into greater detail, what do you mean by creation and evolution? What about theistic evolution?
-=-=-=-=-=-=--=
Quote:

This is the main reason that I believe all orhanized forms of Christianity are wrong. Jesus said, God is everywhere, pick up a rock and he is there, split a log and he is there. Well now then why do we need church? God did not ask for all of this. Jesus flipped the collecting tables in the synagogue because he didnt want any money in the house of god. So why is there a collection at church?
I wholeheartedly agree on this. And, it comes from the letters of Paul. He creates the religious institution and encourages it's development and according to many Christians, alters the teachings of Jesus.

As for the collection, at least in my church, it's used for repairs and charity. At the end of every 4 months, they provide a budget layout in the bulletin.
Quote:

If there was anything true about god, man has manipulated to his advantage. I can find human beings more just than god, why dont you go worship them?
And I can find a bear more just than humans, what's your point in that?
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
Quote:

whaT?
of course there's no god, if god made men, what made god? men?
it's just like "what comes first, a chicken or an egg?"
a) Explanations are generally either: God was always around or God is self-created
b) The egg came first for lizards and fish first layed eggs in the earlier periods before scales evolved to feathers.
Quote:

well i also believe that the bible or things like that wus made up by men and puh-lease... worshipping is wasting time!
Fine, then back up your opinion with facts and state it instead of wasting time yourself.
-=-=-=--=-=-=-=-=-
Quote:

Question 1: why would a pefect god create a universe with so much evil?

Anwer 1/Question 2: why would a pefect god create a universe at al?

Anwer 2: A perfect god knows all, sees all, can all, etc.
Well, if the god is perfect, it has no, absolutly none, imperfections in it reach. The god is perfect so its reach is limitless. Human is not perfect, therefor the existence of a perfect god is not possible.
Answer to Ques. 1 and Ques. 2-
We have free will to choose what we want. Free will isn't evil. In fact, evil is only what we see it. (i.e. raping a woman in modern urban society is evil, in some tribal cultures, it is good and preserves life of the culture).

Answer to Answer 2-
Again explained above. Another possible explanation offered by theologists is that the bible was talking of the human soul.
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Quote:

there are alot of movies out that ive seen about this subject.. where they prove most scientific beliefs of things wrong.. but like the ice age for example a perfect example of noah's flood there were mammoths that died with unchewed food still in their mouth and that is because of noahs flash flood(it explains it in detail in the movie) and the grand canyon wasnt eroded away over millions apon millions of years it was also massively eroded because of the flood they took a piece of rock to one of those carbon dater people and he said it was say 500 million years old and then they took it to a differant one and they said like 3 billion.. there is big controversy between what scientists "prove" and what they think they know
a) The flood wasn't a flash flood err go rain for 40 days and 40 nights if you take it literally as you seem to
b) Many animals die with food in their mouths. Try to consider other factors before making claims like that.
c) Question- Why would only the area of the current Colorado river be eroded, but the rest of the Grand Canyon wasn't?
d) Carbon-14 only works up to 60,000 years. Where the hell did you get that from?
Quote:

and also there is a bug that spits out fire by chemical rwactions inside it.. it cause the reaction when the 2 sacs of 2 differant chemicals meet at its moouth when it sprays.. if the whole darwin theory of things evolving.. how did this bug exist becauseat the beginning the chemicals would of been mixed together which would cause little explosions of dead bugs.. they wouldnt be able to reproduse and they would all die off... but that little bug exists which means that that gorilla in africa isnt my great great great great great grandpa
a) In the beginning, it was just a bug. It evolved a poison spray. It mutated into small sparks.
b) The gorilla in Africa probably isn't your grandpa because to trace a lineage back to prehistoric organisms, we may have to go all the way back to the first fish, lizards, or amphibians.
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
Quote:

You mis the point: Something that is perfect can not coexist with something imperfect. The perfect thing would not be perfect then.
Something cannot be perfect with out a reference to imperfection, for all views of reality are stated in terms of reference points.
[quote]

shiner 11-Jan-2003 17:53

1 thing annoy's me in this forum:
The unability to read corectly.

Quote:

(Originally posted by AznBlade)

Something cannot be perfect with out a reference to imperfection, for all views of reality are stated in terms of reference points.
1. If there is perfection, it is only logical that is is the highest perfection. It would incorperate all that is. This way it would also incorperate the imperfections, thus making perfection imperfect.
2. If you can observe perfection, it would not incorperate you. Thus making perfection imperfect.

AznBlade 11-Jan-2003 18:37

Quote:

(Originally posted by shiner)
1 thing annoy's me in this forum:
The unability to read corectly.
unability? Never knew that was a word...
Quote:

1. If there is perfection, it is only logical that is is the highest perfection. It would incorperate all that is. This way it would also incorperate the imperfections, thus making perfection imperfect.
Why? Why would it have to incorporate seperate things?
Quote:

2. If you can observe perfection, it would not incorperate you. Thus making perfection imperfect.
I still don't get what you're trying to say. For there to be perfection, there must be imperfection as a reference to identify perfection.

I'm just going to drop this now... I'm arguing for something I myself am not so sure of and have never been sure of.

Shadowdaggerz 11-Jan-2003 18:40

Evolution
 
Quote:

and also there is a bug that spits out fire by chemical rwactions inside it.. it cause the reaction when the 2 sacs of 2 differant chemicals meet at its moouth when it sprays.. if the whole darwin theory of things evolving.. how did this bug exist becauseat the beginning the chemicals would of been mixed together which would cause little explosions of dead bugs.. they wouldnt be able to reproduse and they would all die off... but that little bug exists which means that that gorilla in africa isnt my great great great great great grandpa
Huh ? Never heard of that... That's what the dragons do in Reign of Fire though :lol. Anyway, that's besides the point... The point is, you obviously misunderstand the idea of evolution.
When an organism encounters a constant threat, it evolves methods to counter that threat (Of course, evolution doesn't just occur due to constant threat, but that's the example I'm gonna use.) The method usually works, but often (as in the case of the dragon bug lol) it harms the organism itself. BOOM there goes the bug. So the method wasn't successful, he doesn't reproduce. But there are, let's just say, two billion of those bugs under that constant threat, and some of those will evolve defences. A few of those bugs will evolve successful defences, survive, and reproduce. It sometimes happens that the bugs will evolve different successful defences, and either intermate (thus combining the defences, such as armour + firespitting), or only mate those with the same characteristics (thus forming different species. ie, cobra and garden snake are different because their ancestor evolved several times in different 'directions'). What if they don't evolve defences? Well there are lots of other species anyway. Who'll miss the bugs ?
If there are no threats or change of lifestyle or any other motivation for change, the organism will not evolve. Example: The shark. The shark is exactly the same now as it was millions of years ago, because it is perfectly evolved for it's habitat and lifestyle. The ultimate sea predator. Well, that was simplified version of the evolution theory... If you want to go more indepth, look it up. That's what the internet was originally for, after all :lol. See ya !

shiner 11-Jan-2003 21:39

Quote:

(Originally posted by AznBlade)

unability? Never knew that was a word...

well, now you do. ;)

Quote:

Why? Why would it have to incorporate seperate things?
Because it exists, therefor perfection must gain all it is, thus incorperate it.

Quote:

I still don't get what you're trying to say. For there to be perfection, there must be imperfection as a reference to identify perfection.
Even if it would need it, perfection can not exist when imperfection exists, as i showed previously. So one of both does not exist. We, as human, are not perfect, which dictates that perfection is not possible.

ghdfgsdrgsdfgdr 11-Jan-2003 21:48

Why does everyone ignore my arguements?

Or did a make some points?

shiner 11-Jan-2003 21:51

Quote:

(Originally posted by MelonFarmer)

Why does everyone ignore my arguements?

Or did a make some points?
Yep, you did. And since there is nothing against it, ignoring them is the last solution.

D Man 11-Jan-2003 21:57

Quote:

(Originally posted by shiner)

well, now you do. ;)

First of all, that word does NOT exist :-)

Quote:

Because it exists, therefor perfection must gain all it is, thus incorperate it.
I also dont understand what you are getting at...

Lets say I had a stone (just an example :-) ) and it was "perfect."

There was also an egg, but it was "imperfect."

How does that mean that the stone cant be perfect?

wkmartin 11-Jan-2003 22:00

I see that the majority of posts are God and christian bashing so I'm going to do something that I almost never do. If you have a genuine question about Christianity and would like to see it answered from a lay fundementalist Christian perspective, e-mail me at [email protected]. I will not bash anyone and will be happy to discuss intelligently any questions anyone has. I will also freely admit if I don't know the answer. Some of you atheists and non-christians might find that refreshing. But please only e-mail me if you have a real question.

going to change 11-Jan-2003 22:07

I dont know if anyone posted this already but whatever. Everyone wo siad that the bible was written by men you are 100% right. The bible was written by men. There is no dought in my mind that men didn't write the bible, but I believe that the men that wrote the bible wrote it with "GOD's" (whoever your god is) help. meaning that god didnt write the bible he only assisted the minds and hands of the men that wrote the bible. Which in turn causes my beilf that God "wrote" the bible. God didn't do it physicaly, but he put the words in the mind and hands of the men that wrote it. The bible could be a load of crap, but what if it isn't, and you dont search for god and find him, and you get stuck in hell and sufer endlessly for the rest of eternity. I would sugest not saying there is not a god because how did every thing come to exsistance. and dont someone give the the whole evolution crap. Cause youll just mak yourself look stupid if you say that we evolved form monkeys. I mean look at the mind capacity of monkeys then look at us. Our mind capasity is so much more than hte monkeys its like saying that monkeys evolved from rocks. that might be a little extravigent but you get the picture, we didnt evolve fromanything were were made and our minds devoloped over the years. thousands of years. do ou ee monkeys living in houses withrunning water they have been here jsut as longas we have. I dont know im not tellin yo what to eilive or what is right or wrong all i am trying to get across is before you say there is not a god please search for him in one way or another. and if you say that there is no evidence then you are jsut being ignorant. sorry if this affends anyone in anyway it was not meant to affend only to get people thinking.

malus 12-Jan-2003 05:30

i dont know if anyone posted this either but heres my points on the subject
im a christian but have been doubting recently. first of all alot of the things in the bible probably didnt happen but were written to make a point (e.g. the story of Jonna and the whale). also adam and eve having been supposedly the first two humans and everyone came from them. wouldnt their offspring have eventually become steril. i could probably say alot more but i dont like typing all. dont know if there is a god just hope that their is something after death.

asunti2506 12-Jan-2003 05:35

Quote:

(Originally posted by james111)

and also there is a bug that spits out fire by chemical rwactions inside it.. it cause the reaction when the 2 sacs of 2 differant chemicals meet at its moouth when it sprays.. if the whole darwin theory of things evolving.. how did this bug exist becauseat the beginning the chemicals would of been mixed together which would cause little explosions of dead bugs.. they wouldnt be able to reproduse and they would all die off... but that little bug exists which means that that gorilla in africa isnt my great great great great great grandpa
A name of this bug would be helpful, since I've never heard of it before. Maybe it started spitting out the chemicals first, then developed the fire ability, or they evovled simultaneously?

AznBlade 12-Jan-2003 17:30

Quote:

(Originally posted by shiner)
well, now you do. ;)
Looked it up... it's not a word
Quote:

Because it exists, therefor perfection must gain all it is, thus incorperate it.
I still don't understand why it has to.
Quote:

Even if it would need it, perfection can not exist when imperfection exists, as i showed previously. So one of both does not exist. We, as human, are not perfect, which dictates that perfection is not possible.
Question- what if there are 2 things in the universe. Both are perfect. Perfection exists... then what if one starts becoming corrupt. What happens to the other one?

Shadowdaggerz 12-Jan-2003 18:21

heh heh
 
Quote:

(Originally posted by Fisher)

and dont someone give the the whole evolution crap. Cause youll just mak yourself look stupid if you say that we evolved form monkeys. I mean look at the mind capacity of monkeys then look at us. Our mind capasity is so much more than hte monkeys its like saying that monkeys evolved from rocks. that might be a little extravigent but you get the picture, we didnt evolve fromanything were were made and our minds devoloped over the years. thousands of years. do ou ee monkeys living in houses withrunning water they have been here jsut as longas we have.
lol, I'll make myself look stupid will I? I think I'll take the chance while I make you look stupid :lol (Just kidding, no offense intended :)). First of all, the mind capacity thing. The whole point of evolution is that a family will change over time. In fact, humans are very slightly different today then they were two millenia ago, let along 30 million years ago. We have a larger brain capacity (and a smaller brain) than we did 2000 years ago. That's proven, btw. They have compared skull sizes from then and now to determine brain sizes, and as for brain capacity... well I really don't know. But it's enough to say that we have smaller brains, which proves that we have changed since then. There's also the presence of the tailbone, which in modern humans is nearly nonexistant. Again, 2000 years ago they were different: Their tailbone was larger. Considering that these slight evolutions are proven, can you seriously say that the hundreds of gradiant monkey-to-human (apes evolved from monkeys) skeletons are simply seperate species that lasted a while then dissapeared, and that they have no relation to the skeletons found that are almost exactlt he same but slightly different? Or that we have no relation to the humans that lived 2000 years ago? It is a common misconception that evolution can only occur over millions of years. In fact, if you have kids they will probably be slightly more evolved than you are, but it is only over hundreds of generations that the difference is noticable, and millions of years that the difference is obvious. For example, your feet are probably bigger than your great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-grandfather's feet. Probably, because humananity's obssession with helping everyone survive, no matter how badly handicapped, deformed, etc, is making our evolution go haywire. The 'gene pool' is no longer the best evolutions, but simply every evolution mixed together. Of course, helping everyone survive isn't a bad thing... But to compensate for the 'contamination', for lack of a better word, of the gene pool, we need to develop genetic engineering to it's fullest... But that's a different argument. Anyway, back to the topic. With all thpse differences over just 2000 years, is it really hard to believe that our brain capacity has increased over the last 4 000 000 years?
Quote:

they have been here jsut as longas we have.
uhh... not quite. The human races are approximately 50 000 years old. The monkey races are several million years old. And by several I mean many. And even if you count the monkey-human in-betweens, the monkeys still beat us by a couple million years.
Quote:

do ou ee monkeys living in houses withrunning water
Geez... and you're saying I'll look like an idiot... We didn't have houses until 35 000 years ago... hmm... wierd. I guess the human race is actually about 35 000 years old, by your definition...
And oh wait, it doesn't stop there. We didn't have running water either until the 19th century (less than a 100 years ago!). Oh wait... That means my great-great-grandfather isn't really my ancestor ? Of course not ! He didn't have running water when he was a kid. Can't wait to tell him he's not human. :rolleyes: So now we're less than 100 years old! Wow... I'm a third or fourth generation human!!

"I dont know im not tellin yo what to eilive or what is right or wrong all i am trying to get across is before you say there is not a god please search for him in one way or another. and if you say that there is no evidence then you are jsut being ignorant."

Warning: If you are easily offended by interpretations of the bible other than yours, please ignore the rest of the message.

Hmm... ignorant, eh ? Oh, I'm sorry. I guess it's really stupid to believe 500 years of evidence that we can touch and see and feel, that we can prove can by countless scientific method, that we can see all around us. After all, there's a book written by someone 2000 years ago or so. And it's really believable, too!
There's some ALL-POWERFUL being aaaall around us, even if you can't see or feel him. Now, we're his children, but someday we ate something that he told us not to eat... Now, this was an incredibly evil thing to do. But instead of spanking us and explaining why we weren't allowed, he violently throws us out of the garden, curses the land we farm so that we'll forever live in poverty and suffering, curses our descendants so that birthgiving will be utter pain, and curses us with sickness and disease. As if that weren't enough, he places us right in the reach of the evil Devil, so he can curse us even more ! Of course, all but 400 000 or so ppl, according to the bible, will be allowed to return to heaven. Everyone else will stay on Earth after Judgement Day. Granted, an Earth where he removes all curses, most of which He placed on us in the first place. All that because we took a bit out of a fruit. But he's a gentle, loving, forgiving God. The one evidence of his existance that was ever created are a few books here and there... The Bible, the Koran, the Holy Scriptures... The only problem is, all of them are a bit different, so we're not sure which one to believe, or if any of them are the right version. But he's a loving, caring, forgiving God who has so much love for us that those who beleive in him will get to stay on Earth, or if they're REAL lucky, go to heaven. Everyone else ? Ahh well, they can suffer even more for eternity in Hell.
But of course, those few books are soooo much more believable than all the evidence they've been finding for 500 years are are still finding today.
hmm... I'm sorry, but I think I'll stay agnostic for now.

Majestic Vraak 12-Jan-2003 18:23

Re: heh heh
 
Quote:

(Originally posted by Shadowdaggerz)

Of course, all but 400 000 or so ppl, according to the bible, will be allowed to return to heaven.
Actually, it's 144,000. And also, if you read the Bible carefully, it says from the Tribe of. It has no mention of the Gentiles, that is only applied towards the Jews. Also 144,000 could represent anything. The 144,000 people actually getting in is only the belief of the *shudder* Jehovah's Witnesses.

Shadowdaggerz 12-Jan-2003 18:27

lol... I knew that number wasn't quite right :).

AznBlade 12-Jan-2003 18:36

Quote:

(Originally posted by Fisher)
The bible could be a load of crap, but what if it isn't, and you dont search for god and find him, and you get stuck in hell and sufer endlessly for the rest of eternity.
Why do you have to believe the bible is correct to believe in God? I doubt much of the validity of the bible considering revisions, retranslations, etc. yet still believe in God.
Quote:

I would sugest not saying there is not a god because how did every thing come to exsistance. and dont someone give the the whole evolution crap.
Why can't evolution and creation coexist? Well, they can. It's called theistic evolution.
Quote:

Cause youll just mak yourself look stupid if you say that we evolved form monkeys. I mean look at the mind capacity of monkeys then look at us. Our mind capasity is so much more than hte monkeys its like saying that monkeys evolved from rocks.
Mind capacity is an evolved trait. We have fossils of older "ancestors" showing a graduall increase in brain capactity.
Quote:

that might be a little extravigent but you get the picture, we didnt evolve fromanything were were made and our minds devoloped over the years. thousands of years.
I thought you said we didn't evolve? Now, you're saying we do? Make up your mind.
Quote:

do ou ee monkeys living in houses withrunning water they have been here jsut as longas we have.
No, because they're perfectly suited to their enviroments and have no need to evolve the traits that we do.
Quote:

I dont know im not tellin yo what to eilive or what is right or wrong all i am trying to get across is before you say there is not a god please search for him in one way or another. and if you say that there is no evidence then you are jsut being ignorant. sorry if this affends anyone in anyway it was not meant to affend only to get people thinking.
Well then, what evidence is there of God's existance? The most people get is either:
  • Circular logic- The bible is true because God wrote it and God exists because the bible says so
  • Miracles- Something happened and people label it as God's doing
  • Biblical Prophecies- A few things the bible says is true, so it must be true!
    or...
  • Nothing

Cuivienen 12-Jan-2003 21:26

No, but I'm too lazy to explain why right now.

Shival 12-Jan-2003 23:09

How about this arguement:

(this one is kinda funny)

1. God is the greatest of all possible things.

2. It is greater for something to exist than for something to not exist. (Example an apple you can eat is better than an apple that you dream up in your head)

3. God must exist since to be the greatest of all possible things he must exist in reality.


I think that this arguement shows how defining God is a silly thing to do. If you say that God is X or that God is Y you are misleading yourself. If God had a certain charecteristic or quality it would be impossible for us to know what it actually was because in our limited understanding of language we would automatically assume that having a certain quality prohibts God from having other qualities.

For example, if God were to be said to be All Powerful and All Good he would be caught in a case of constant contridiction. There are injustices in the world that she doesn't fix. Now this would seem to challenge either the all-good or the all-powerful aspect of God. A standard Christian response is the statement: "But then we wouldn't have free will", but the fact of the matter is "Free-Will" in and of itself is an inherently EVIL concept. The ability to do wrong is only obtained through the ability to choose to do wrong i.e. Free Will. If God really wanted everyone to be "All-Good" like him he wouldn't have allowed us the "Free-Will" that we all claim is so important.

The story of the Garden of Eden in Genesis shows that God didn't intend for humans to have this free-will that everyone claims is so important, we were created lacking free-will and it was not until we ate from the tree of the knowledge of goodness and evil did we gain the ability to choose. This aquisition is generally termed "The Fall" and is the most negitive aspect of the whole Bible.

As you can clearly see there are problems with the answer of "But then we wouldn't have Free-Will"

In summery I would just like to mention that this does NOT disprove the existance of God. Just because God cannot be defined doesn't mean that he doesn't exist. Nor does this mean that the Bible is a worthless waste of paper, in fact the allegorical significance of the Bible is infinate. Christianity may have some faults in it, but I believe it has many things right on.

Shivan Darkeyes

Shival 12-Jan-2003 23:12

Explanation of the flaws in language and God
 
Most Christians today would see no problem with saying anything about God along the lines of "Oh well God is good" or "God is all-knowing" or "God watches me all the time"

The problem with this is that due to the fact that language is a symbol it cannot express true meaning. If I were to say to you: I have an apple in my hand. You would visualize and apple, this apple is the "perfect apple". Now that I have written a bit about your thinking of this apple it may have changed forms, it may no longer be the "perfect apple" but rather it might have a soft spot, or now rather than being a red apple it might be green or yellow. The point is the word "Apple" isn't descriptive enough. Thats why we have adjectives you might say! The problem is that adj. also fall horribly short when it comes to defineing and conceptualizing an object. When I say a red, shiney, fresh, apple that is about the size of a fist, has one hole that a worm is living in, you might have a good idea of what I mean by the apple. BUT YOU DO NOT KNOW EXACTLY THE SAME APPLE THAT I KNOW. The amount of possible apples that can be pictured in your mind are less but there are still variations. My apple that I pictured was the size of MY fist was yours the same size? You say: Well thats why we have measurements. If you were to be scientific and quantify the apple I would have been able to picture the exact apple. STILL NOT TRUE! My shade of red if different than yours, the texture of the apple in my mind is different than yours, the SMELL of my apple is different than yours. All these factors can be addressed but inevitably there is something I am leaving out and no matter how great your grasp of the English language (or any language for that matter) there is a certain degree of UNCERTAINTY.

How much greater is this uncertainty when taken to the level of the abstract? What happens when I say a word like:
Love, Truth, Good, Evil, or GOD. It is not in your or my capacity to understand these concepts except on a personal, subjective level. Any individual's understanding of the concept of God is going to be unique to themselves. To some extent society will try to define God by claiming that he is

"a red, shiney, fresh, God that is about the size of a fist, and has one hole that a worm is living in"

You are MAKING AN ASSUMPTION about the nature of God which you CANNOT do. You might say "Well The Bible TELL me so"

Bullcrap. The Bible doesn't tell you any deffinate facts as the West has been so foolish in thinking. When a person says "You must take the Bible literally, word for word" you should pity that person, because they think that God is a farmer, a rock, the Word, a prince, insubstantial, a father, a son, a dove, and many other things.

"Oh please oh great Rock pound my enemies"

This is not "The God" of the Christians.

Any Christian would tell you "No that was a metaphor" or "That was a parable Jesus didn't ACTUALLY mean that you had to...blah blah blah" Yet that same Christian will claim that "Of course the world was created in 7 days that isn't a metaphor"

The Bible cannot be used to determine pure truth. However it CAN be used to see truth as a person sees a reflection of themselves in a mirror. In the same way I cannot tell you what God is. If I do I am guilty of limiting him. The one thing that I can say about God is that you can talk indirectly about her and find truth in that, much like what I have done here.

D Man 13-Jan-2003 00:55

Quote:

(Originally posted by Shival)

For example, if God were to be said to be All Powerful and All Good he would be caught in a case of constant contridiction. There are injustices in the world that she doesn't fix. Now this would seem to challenge either the all-good or the all-powerful aspect of God. A standard Christian response is the statement: "But then we wouldn't have free will", but the fact of the matter is "Free-Will" in and of itself is an inherently EVIL concept. The ability to do wrong is only obtained through the ability to choose to do wrong i.e. Free Will.
I also cant see what you are getting at with this.

Lets say I have a very special rock (dumb example again :-) ) Now, this rock is "All Powerful and All Good."

It then decided one day to create a place full of eggs. He decided to give the eggs "free will".

Now because of "free will" some peeople were 'good' and some people were 'bad'.

Now because some people were 'bad', how does that make the stone bad as well?

Quote:

If God really wanted everyone to be "All-Good" like him he wouldn't have allowed us the "Free-Will" that we all claim is so important.
Now, that comment there is just plain dumb.

He wanted everyone to be good by their own free will. He didnt want us to be 'good' just because we had no other choice but to be 'good' (ie. no free will).

So, once again, how does that stop HIM (or the stone) from not being perfect?

ton4052 13-Jan-2003 08:54

for Christians and non-Christians...

i learn this today from ma bro in Christ...

if we start to picture how (anything...i.e. "powerful, good, strong..etc") God is, we are making Him very small than what He really is.
Rebutt??!!

i said this before...gonna say it again...

God could have done 3 three things...think about it...

1) Create NOTHING...NADA
2) Create a world where everybody is good (no evil)...this means we are ROBOTS... :lol ...remember God can't create evil...
3) This world where we have the will to choose between right and wrong...but we fail most of the time...but the consquences are not our choice...by God's

now some of you may claim u didn't do anything wrong...but there is a problem that is lurking rite inside of us everyday...sexual temptation...
i just read "Every Young Man's Battle, Strategies for Victory in the Real World of Sexual Temptation" by Stephen Arterburn, Fred Stoeker, and Mike Yorkey
i really recommend it. and to sum it up...

there is a quote stating "what doing hurt you, doesn't kill you"...rite?!...WRONG. this is why divorce rate is all time high...pplz are getting marry cuz of sex...not love from God. here is a funny but serious quote.

"Invite me to the wedding, let me stay for the marriage"
- God

heck i believe all of us have once look at gurls or guys lustfully. and i know we teens and young adults know it is wrong. why do we hide this from our family and friends? cuz we kno it is wrong...say whatever u want...but u know it is wrong.
What you do now affects your future...i am serious

Shadowdaggerz 13-Jan-2003 18:07

Right & Wrong ?
 
In your own words and in as much detail as you can, define 'wrong'.

Hurleyy 13-Jan-2003 19:04

About the whole monkey business.. Todays monkey are NOT the same as in the past. They are an evolved form, just like us. We have a common ancestor, but we did not evolve form chimps. They are like our cousins.

and to ton4052.. lust is NATURAL. it is in our survival instinct. without lust there would be no motivation to have sex, and that means no more kids, and no on left to believe in god.

All this anti-sex crap is from conservatives who are too embarassed to admit that sex is natural and isnt wrong.

Shadowdaggerz 13-Jan-2003 22:00

God: Not all-powerful, or not holy ?
 
Quote:

(Originally posted by PhoenixBD)
About the whole monkey business.. Todays monkey are NOT the same as in the past. They are an evolved form, just like us. We have a common ancestor, but we did not evolve form chimps. They are like our cousins.
Well, when we say we evolved from monkeys we're of course referring to the 'monkeys' that existed when the human race branched off. I thought that was obvious enough to not be worth mentioning :).

Quote:

(Originally posted by PhoenixBD)
and to ton4052.. lust is NATURAL. it is in our survival instinct. without lust there would be no motivation to have sex, and that means no more kids, and no on left to believe in god.
Well of course it's natural. If you want to look at it from a biblical point of view (not the Church's point of view; The Church's interpretations shouldn't be everyone's interpretations), God cursed women with pain at childbirth, thus implying that it did not originally involve pain, thus implying that it already existed before the exile from the garden, thus implying that it is natural.

But here's something I've just thought of (see subject :p). If God is all-powerful and all-seeing (arguments against defining God not taken into consideration at this point), then He know the future. If not, then He cannot truly be all-powerful and all-seeing. If so, then
..(A) there is no such thing as free will, since all our actions are inevitable and known; and
..(B) He must have already known what would happen if He created humans, thus:
....(B.a) He already knew that we would eat of the fruit,
....(B.b) He already knew that we would become corrupt and that he would flood the Earth and save only one family, which means that
........(B.b.1) He nearly purged the planet of something he percieved as 'evil' (humans), which he knew would be inherently 'evil' before he created them, thus he created something fully knowing he was creating 'evil'. Thus, by creating something evil, his actions cannot be all good.
The only alternative to this is if he did not forsee that we would become inherently 'evil', thus he did not know the future, thus he is not all-powerful and all-knowing.

AznBlade 14-Jan-2003 01:04

Re: God: Not all-powerful, or not holy ?
 
Quote:

(Originally posted by Shadowdaggerz)
But here's something I've just thought of (see subject :p). If God is all-powerful and all-seeing (arguments against defining God not taken into consideration at this point), then He know the future. If not, then He cannot truly be all-powerful and all-seeing. If so, then
..(A) there is no such thing as free will, since all our actions are inevitable and known; and
..(B) He must have already known what would happen if He created humans, thus:
....(B.a) He already knew that we would eat of the fruit,
....(B.b) He already knew that we would become corrupt and that he would flood the Earth and save only one family, which means that
........(B.b.1) He nearly purged the planet of something he percieved as 'evil' (humans), which he knew would be inherently 'evil' before he created them, thus he created something fully knowing he was creating 'evil'. Thus, by creating something evil, his actions cannot be all good.
The only alternative to this is if he did not forsee that we would become inherently 'evil', thus he did not know the future, thus he is not all-powerful and all-knowing.
Let me give you a different perspective. God is outside of the realm of time, therefore, time doesn't necessarily apply to God. Most believe time is a line, but I believe Time is like a tree. Here's an example- (simplified)
Let's say if you throw yourself off a cliff. Chances are that you will may:
a) die
b) get caught on something preventing you from falling
c) just break a few bones

That is the perspective of God. God knows what will happen if you die, what will happen if you don't die, and what will happen if you don't even decide to jump. That also explains why I believe you can have free will to live in the moment, yet also have a being that's all-seeing.
-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Here's something I thought of:

Someone earlier said God couldn't create evil. If God is all powerful, why can't evil be created?

Shadowdaggerz 14-Jan-2003 01:33

You know what? That's the first explanation that actually makes sense anyone's ever given me in a loooooong time. So you're saying that God cannot predict our actions, and that in giving us free will, he made us unpredictable even for him ?

AznBlade 14-Jan-2003 02:06

Quote:

(Originally posted by Shadowdaggerz)

You know what? That's the first explanation that actually makes sense anyone's ever given me in a loooooong time. So you're saying that God cannot predict our actions, and that in giving us free will, he made us unpredictable even for him ?
God can basically predict outcomes. In a way, we are predictable, in a way we may not. This is the flaw in my hypothesis. It explains how we have free will and God can predict actions, but it also says God isn't all seeing because God wouldn't really know which one we would absolutely pick. That also makes room for the multiverse hypothesis in which all possible outcomes take place, each in a different universe, but I won't get into that because it's not a belief of mine.

ton4052 14-Jan-2003 05:37

i kno sex is natural...duh
but doing it cuz it feels good is not...
lust is suppose to human get "high" but only to ur wife or husband. sex is not meant for fun. it was meant for reproduction...even God said "go be fruitful and multiple" but you gotta b conmitted to ur wife or husband. most relationship break down cuz there is no "chemistry" anymore...or cuz we don't "feel" for each other...damn...
i had those rappers who put down women...and i hate those women who put themself down but selling themselves...

anyways...enough about ma opinions...hehe...think what u think...

like i said before...i agree with wut aznblade just said...but not quite...
i admit...i m sorta confuse about all this free will but this is what i believe...

Adam and Eve are the own ones who had "Free will"...they had a choice to either do evil or good...they chose evil...after them 2...there is no existence of "Free will" because i think (notice...i said THINK) because it is our bodies that will always chose evil.
we chose what we do...what to think...but the conquences or the results of our choices are not up to us but up to the Creator...God.

ghdfgsdrgsdfgdr 14-Jan-2003 06:10

Although you may think sex for non-reproduction isn't natural it is.

Dolphins have sex for pleasure.

Shadowdaggerz 14-Jan-2003 21:54

Adultry & sex before marriage
 
That means that:
(A) Non-humans ( 0])are exempt from the Ten Commandments, or
(B) Animals are evil (:supermad).

Edit: Ignore the title, I was originally gonna post something else then proved my own point wrong :lol.

Shadowdaggerz 15-Jan-2003 00:08

...according to the Ten Commandments.

AznBlade 15-Jan-2003 00:44

Re: Adultry & sex before marriage
 
Quote:

(Originally posted by Shadowdaggerz)
That means that:
(A) Non-humans ( 0])are exempt from the Ten Commandments, or
(B) Animals are evil (:supermad).
I don't believe abstinence is in the ten commandments.

Shadowdaggerz 15-Jan-2003 01:07

No, but the 7th Commandment goes (something like this, I think): "Thou shall not commit adultry."

going to change 15-Jan-2003 01:30

shadow daggerz hey man yea good point exept fr hte fact that i dont beilve the earth is even 350000 or whateverbig number that was but anyway yea all i have to say is i beiive in what i beilive in and you in yours you got some great stuff there and i guess it could go both ways depends on how you grew up and what you were taught and all that bs. anyhow im sure something else ill come up and well talk about something else late so later

nkari 15-Jan-2003 01:35

The seventh commandment according to christian belief contains all forms of adultery (any sex beofre marriage, outside of your own marriage, with another who is married, ect)

The churches have somehow managed to modify every commandment so that every possible "sin" is covered.

Oh and a little bit on the wrongness of actions. That bit is not impartial at all. Your ethics and morality may be completely different than anothers. To another it may not be wrong at all to have sex beofre marriage. People make their own moralities, if you follow a christian one to the "t" you are no longer your own person. There is no way that EVERY SINGLE idea they throw out you agree with.

Ex. - Hugh Hefner's morality obviously says that sex is right and good (of course he is a firm hedonist)

AznBlade 15-Jan-2003 01:38

Quote:

(Originally posted by Shadowdaggerz)
No, but the 7th Commandment goes (something like this, I think): "Thou shall not commit adultry."
Isn't adultry cheating on your wife/husband?

TAB69 15-Jan-2003 03:49

I believe in God. The Bible says that God is love. Who doesn't believe there is such a thing as that?
But...

Kain050 15-Jan-2003 04:56

No, god (no, i will not put a G there) is a fictional character invented by an ancient government to control it's people in as many ways as possible.

Is Jesus Real? yes, he is documented, but i highly doubt he did half the crap they claimed...

TAB69 15-Jan-2003 04:59

And for what purpose do you doubt? Does it scare you to let otherwise "unbelievable" notions into your mind for contemplative reasons?

Dilbert 15-Jan-2003 10:49

yes kain, i am sure YOU could tell us the scientific meaning of life and our creation, our purpose.[sarcasm] oh wait, there is none. YOU were an accident, I was an accident.everthing is just coincidental, and it just somehow managed to happen for no reason at all[/sarcasm]

D Man 15-Jan-2003 10:54

Quote:

(Originally posted by Kain050)

No, god (no, i will not put a G there) is a fictional character invented by an ancient government to control it's people in as many ways as possible.

Is Jesus Real? yes, he is documented, but i highly doubt he did half the crap they claimed...
hmmmm,

I didnt know that half the stuff he did was "crap"?

Shadowdaggerz 15-Jan-2003 13:08

Quote:

(Originally posted by Dilbert)

yes kain, i am sure YOU could tell us the scientific meaning of life and our creation, our purpose.[sarcasm] oh wait, there is none. YOU were an accident, I was an accident.everthing is just coincidental, and it just somehow managed to happen for no reason at all[/sarcasm]
'Meaning' and 'Purpose' cannot exist except in our minds. In other words, we create our own meaning & purpose.
Second, there's an estimated half-billion Life-supporting planets in the galaxy, and an estimated cinquillian galaxies in the universe (Those numbers may be off a couple billion either way, but you get the point.) If you think about it, that's an estimated 500 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 (five hundred octillian) life-supporting planets in the universe. Considering that all you need to jumpstart life is an organic soup and electricity, all it takes for life is the random chance of getting both together. It had to happen somewhere :lol

liamog 15-Jan-2003 16:10

Organic soup and electricity? So that means that since this is common knowledge ,apparently, scientists should be capable of re-creating this event. We got electricity, and organic soup? well if its true it must excist. Unless of course this is only a theory, in which case without proof, has the same scientific standing as the creation by God. Science and Theory do not go hand in hand, science can reveal results under controled circumstane, theory is another word for speculation, religion(creation) is a phenomenum, experienced by millions on this planet. From a "scientific" outlook, which carries the more weight?

Shadowdaggerz 15-Jan-2003 21:46

Quote:

Posted by liamog:

Organic soup and electricity? So that means that since this is common knowledge ,apparently, scientists should be capable of re-creating this event.
It's been done many, many times. It's a university chemistry experiment, in fact.

TAB69 15-Jan-2003 21:52

Scientifically, in order for a hypothesis to become a theory it must be able to be proven wrong. It is universally accepted in the scientific community that all theories are human derived, and since we are potentially fallible, so must our theories potentially be.

For instance, it was once widely accepted knowledge that the Earth was triangular. But now we know otherwise. The reason we know otherwise is because we continued to test our theories, full knowing that we are only capable of potentially wrong hypothesis, even if by all accounts it seems absolutely true.

Shadowdaggerz 15-Jan-2003 22:01

Quote:

Posted by liamog:

Science and Theory do not go hand in hand, science can reveal results under controled circumstane, theory is another word for speculation
Accidentally posted before I was done lol. Theory is a branch and method of science. A theory is 'a concept that is not yet verified but that if true would explain certain facts or phenomena' (Source: WordNet ® 1.6, © 1997 Princeton University). It's not a guess, it's a hypothesis based on known data to explain phenomena about which not all data is known. The atomic theory, for example, is based on data known about the interactions of atoms, chemical and physical laws, etc. There has never been any conclusive, concrete proof that the current atomic theory is 100% correct. Atoms are proven to exist, but we're not entirely sure about their structure, etc. That's why it's called a theory, because it changes as more data is known and becomes more precise. The creation of life through 'organic soup' and energy is a well-documented phenomenon, not a theory.
Science is 'The observation, identification, description, experimental investigation, and theoretical explanation of phenomena' (Source: The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition). Theory is a branch of science, not a seperate entity.

webman88 15-Jan-2003 22:18

I read up to page 4 in this discussion and skipped to the end to write my opinions.

I believe in Christ, I believe he came down to earth and died for me. I believe one day I'll be with him

Most of you shouldn't be posting what you think on people's beliefs. Just reading several pages I caught errors because I presume that most of you have not read the Bible.

I read several posts with incorrect references to the Bible and most of these points are strictly bias.

God is perfect

TAB69 15-Jan-2003 22:19

An observation may become a hypothesis, which may become a theory, which may become a law, which may become a truth.
This is the sequence science recognizes.

Squee I 15-Jan-2003 22:27

I too am a believer
 
Likewise I agree with webman. Hopefully some day i'll see him.

God only gave sight to the few.

I think that I am one of them. All those who accept Jesus and God as lord I think do.

Anyway, we cannot comprehend God. He is somethign higher than us. And, yes, he is perfect. He is the DEFINITION of perfect.

But you don't HAVE to believe it. :(

I just hope you see the light on the road to Damascus.
:)

Kain050 15-Jan-2003 23:12

btw, if there is a "god" and that it created us (humans), well... he wouldn't have created us, he wouldn't have been that stupid. I mean, look at us, we destroy EVERYTHING, we show no respect to anything. and also: maybe when all of you "religious people" can actually agree on one religion, then maybe you'll actually have a case to argue. because if there is a god, he would be a centralized god. (I don't know if that's the right word for it, but i mean everyone would be "praying" to the same one, but they're not, are they?)

Hurleyy 15-Jan-2003 23:27

Quote:

Likewise I agree with webman. Hopefully some day i'll see him. I think that I am one of them. All those who accept Jesus and God as lord I think do.
lol.. god plays favorites does he? i thought he loved EVERYONE equally..

TAB69 15-Jan-2003 23:57

What a "god" is and what "God" is are two completely different things.
There are many "gods", but only one "God".

bladess12 15-Jan-2003 23:59

I believe in god, but not a lot of all the other religious believs.

TAB69 16-Jan-2003 00:08

That's nice.

I believe in God, and all other things. I can say this because I am intimate with the dynamics of human understanding and the way that knowledge flows into its set parameters by way of positiveness. It is difficult to explain, but the point is that all things are true in one context or another. It is impossible for a human being to come up with something that is just not true at all.

AznBlade 16-Jan-2003 01:18

Quote:

No, god (no, i will not put a G there) is a fictional character invented by an ancient government to control it's people in as many ways as possible.
Well, what historical evidence do you have?
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Quote:

Organic soup and electricity? So that means that since this is common knowledge ,apparently, scientists should be capable of re-creating this event. We got electricity, and organic soup? well if its true it must excist. Unless of course this is only a theory, in which case without proof, has the same scientific standing as the creation by God. Science and Theory do not go hand in hand, science can reveal results under controled circumstane, theory is another word for speculation, religion(creation) is a phenomenum, experienced by millions on this planet. From a "scientific" outlook, which carries the more weight?
We've created the basic amino acids, proteins, etc. from elements hypothesized to be in the Earth's early atmosphere. If you want to read up on it, it was first done in 1953 by Stanely Miller.
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Quote:

btw, if there is a "god" and that it created us (humans), well... he wouldn't have created us, he wouldn't have been that stupid. I mean, look at us, we destroy EVERYTHING, we show no respect to anything. and also: maybe when all of you "religious people" can actually agree on one religion, then maybe you'll actually have a case to argue. because if there is a god, he would be a centralized god. (I don't know if that's the right word for it, but i mean everyone would be "praying" to the same one, but they're not, are they?)
Well, why would creating life be stupid? I believe we were originally designed to be good, but through free will gave rise to the image of evil in the world. Free will also gives us the choice to believe what we want.
BTW- 3 of the major religions of the world do have a centeralized God (Christianity, Judaism, Islam)

TAB69 16-Jan-2003 01:48

Maybe the old stories are meant to fill in gaps and to promote good behavior. I think it is worthwhile not to forget that these things may have been written for hypothetical purposes.

AznBlade 16-Jan-2003 02:02

Quote:

(Originally posted by TAB69)
Maybe the old stories are meant to fill in gaps and to promote good behavior. I think it is worthwhile not to forget that these things may have been written for hypothetical purposes.
But I thought you believed every word was literal?

TAB69 16-Jan-2003 02:17

I do think every word is literal, but only in the definitive sense. That literature is to be understood literally, from an established literal framework. Those things that remain ambiguous because of the inherent literal limitations, are meant not to be fully understood, and they can be said to be "the mysteries of God." It is when people try to understand these mysteries that were not meant to be understood, but only given to hint at something, is when people try to change The Bible via symbolism or interpretation so that it fits more conveniently into their personal lives. This is a mistake.

The message from God can be found in music, nature, etc. But the part that was meant to be understood literally is gotten by reading The Bible or other spiritual books.

AznBlade 16-Jan-2003 02:33

Quote:

(Originally posted by TAB69)

I do think every word is literal, but only in the definitive sense. That literature is to be understood literally, from an established literal framework. Those things that remain ambiguous because of the inherent literal limitations, are meant not to be fully understood, and they can be said to be "the mysteries of God." It is when people try to understand these mysteries that were not meant to be understood, but only given to hint at something, is when people try to change The Bible via symbolism or interpretation so that it fits more conveniently into their personal lives. This is a mistake.

The message from God can be found in music, nature, etc. But the part that was meant to be understood literally is gotten by reading The Bible or other spiritual books.
Well, then what interpretation is "correct"? If there is a mistaken method, there must be a corerct one.

TAB69 16-Jan-2003 02:36

There is no interpretation, only as many translations as there are languages. To "interpret" something is to attribute to it meaning because it has none inherently. Words can't be interpreted as they have agreed upon definitions, but they can of course, be translated.

AznBlade 16-Jan-2003 02:38

Quote:

(Originally posted by TAB69)
There is no interpretation, only as many translations as there are languages. To "interpret" something is to attribute to it meaning because it has none inherently. Words can't be interpreted as they have agreed upon definitions, but they can of course, be translated.
Not necessarily, for devices such as symbolism, metaphor, hyperbole, etc. can alter the definitions of a word or meaning of something. Bias and propaganda can alter a view, creating different interpretations.

TAB69 16-Jan-2003 02:43

All the possible definitions are in the dictionary. It is a matter of familiarity with them and their correct grammatical usage that they fit where they appropriately do.

Words cannot be altered to mean different things unless we as a society agree.

AznBlade 16-Jan-2003 02:46

Words can be altered any way the reader/viewer/listener wants, it's just a matter of how society accepts it.

Yes, the possible definitions are stated in a dictionary, but there are different connotations to a word with the addition of metaphor, symbolism, and different denotations of a word.

webman88 16-Jan-2003 02:49

Quote:

(Originally posted by Kain050)

btw, if there is a "god" and that it created us (humans), well... he wouldn't have created us, he wouldn't have been that stupid. I mean, look at us, we destroy EVERYTHING, we show no respect to anything. and also: maybe when all of you "religious people" can actually agree on one religion, then maybe you'll actually have a case to argue. because if there is a god, he would be a centralized god. (I don't know if that's the right word for it, but i mean everyone would be "praying" to the same one, but they're not, are they?)
God created us to have a relationship with him. God created humans to have a love relationship. He loves us and we love Him back.

TAB69 16-Jan-2003 02:49

But after all tweaking with the word through metaphor or whatever, does the word then have a limited number or possible meanings?

If so, then it is only a matter of putting all the pieces together according to appropriate and honest usage of the rules of literature, and Wallah, it makes sense.

No more confusion, no more excuses, only understanding and an increased insight into the ways of the world through all that problem solving.

webman88 16-Jan-2003 02:53

The problem with a thread like this is people take other people's word and twists them to use against other people. We'd like to hear about your opinions and not how some other guy disagrees with you.

AznBlade 16-Jan-2003 02:57

Quote:

(Originally posted by TAB69)
But after all tweaking with the word through metaphor or whatever, does the word then have a limited number or possible meanings?

If so, then it is only a matter of putting all the pieces together according to appropriate and honest usage of the rules of literature, and Wallah, it makes sense.
Not necessarily. What makes sense to some may not to others.
Quote:

No more confusion, no more excuses, only understanding and an increased insight into the ways of the world through all that problem solving.
If that were possible for the world, that'd be great, but unfortunately, people will always hold differing and conflicting views.

TAB69 16-Jan-2003 03:00

AznBlade,

So very true. Everyone sees it differently. I think that is the beauty of it, and the whole point to it. If everyone was meant to see it through my eyes, there would only be one pair of eyes.

webman88 16-Jan-2003 03:02

Which brings us to the question. When will these threads end? They are too long

ghdfgsdrgsdfgdr 16-Jan-2003 05:33

Quote:

Which brings us to the question. When will these threads end? They are too long

If you want it to end then don't post on it.

absjaar 16-Jan-2003 16:18

"Arguments about religion are basically 2 people arguing about who has the best imaginary friend"

Stormscape 16-Jan-2003 17:20

*hides altar*
I don't believe god....
I believe in
*reviles altar*
The Norse gods. THe only true gods. Mr. God is a puppet for the other gods who try to order god around! (that's too many instances of the word "god" in one sentance!)

escher2003 16-Jan-2003 17:32

Quote:

(Originally posted by greeney)

yes, i do believe in God



let's say the big bang theory is right....how was space made and how were the sun's made..then again how were people made and how was water and earth made out of clashing fires and gases?
when the universe began, the only element in existance was hydrogen. for 0.0000000000000000000000000000000000001 seconds (that's 36 zeros), the universe went through a period of inflation in which everything was moving at faster than the speed of light. this was due to nuclear fusion and, if you've ever seen 'mars attacks', you know that helium is created as a result of two hydrogen atoms fusing together. occasionally, 3 hydrogens would fuse to create whatever is 3rd on the periodic table and thus, all things were created.

tonyz 16-Jan-2003 17:53

i believe there is a god and there are such beings as guardian angels, i might not goto church every sunday, but i do give thanks to god and pray everyday, i had this car and i went to go take my little girl to the babysitters, on the way there it seemed like it was steering a little funny, but i didnt pay no mind to it, so i dropped my little girl off and went to work, as soon as i pulled into my parking spot, i went to straighten out my car a little better and my steering wheel turned but my tires didnt, a bolt on my steering column broke, so i know i had a guardian angel with me and protecting me and my little girl and then another time on the expressway, i was doing about 70 MPH and i got off at my exit as soon as i slowed down to about 10 MPH, my tie rod end broke and that piece helps to turn your front wheels, if that would have broke when i was doing 70 MPH i would have had a BAD wreck and in the 2 examples i have told, is enough proof for me to believe in god and in guardian angels :D

uiman 16-Jan-2003 18:01

Quote:

(Originally posted by tonyz)

i believe there is a god and there are such beings as guardian angels, i might not goto church every sunday, but i do give thanks to god and pray everyday, i had this car and i went to go take my little girl to the babysitters, on the way there it seemed like it was steering a little funny, but i didnt pay no mind to it, so i dropped my little girl off and went to work, as soon as i pulled into my parking spot, i went to straighten out my car a little better and my steering wheel turned but my tires didnt, a bolt on my steering column broke, so i know i had a guardian angel with me and protecting me and my little girl and then another time on the expressway, i was doing about 70 MPH and i got off at my exit as soon as i slowed down to about 10 MPH, my tie rod end broke and that piece helps to turn your front wheels, if that would have broke when i was doing 70 MPH i would have had a BAD wreck and in the 2 examples i have told, is enough proof for me to believe in god and in guardian angels :D
damn! I wished i had my guardian angel with me when i had my car wreck! Guess he was on leave. He/She should let me know first in advance next time :). Good to know there are some believers out there

Enderwig 16-Jan-2003 18:10

Quote:

(Originally posted by tonyz)

i believe there is a god and there are such beings as guardian angels, i might not goto church every sunday, but i do give thanks to god and pray everyday, i had this car and i went to go take my little girl to the babysitters, on the way there it seemed like it was steering a little funny, but i didnt pay no mind to it, so i dropped my little girl off and went to work, as soon as i pulled into my parking spot, i went to straighten out my car a little better and my steering wheel turned but my tires didnt, a bolt on my steering column broke, so i know i had a guardian angel with me and protecting me and my little girl and then another time on the expressway, i was doing about 70 MPH and i got off at my exit as soon as i slowed down to about 10 MPH, my tie rod end broke and that piece helps to turn your front wheels, if that would have broke when i was doing 70 MPH i would have had a BAD wreck and in the 2 examples i have told, is enough proof for me to believe in god and in guardian angels :D
id say the evidence pointed more to you needing a new car!

ton4052 16-Jan-2003 21:06

Quote:

(Originally posted by escher2003)

when the universe began, the only element in existance was hydrogen. for 0.0000000000000000000000000000000000001 seconds (that's 36 zeros), the universe went through a period of inflation in which everything was moving at faster than the speed of light. this was due to nuclear fusion and, if you've ever seen 'mars attacks', you know that helium is created as a result of two hydrogen atoms fusing together. occasionally, 3 hydrogens would fuse to create whatever is 3rd on the periodic table and thus, all things were created.
so u believe that u "evolve" for hydrogens....hehe
that means if the atoms didn't bang together....we wouldn't be here...that means it is an accident...does it also mean life is an accident?!...

me...i don't think so...life can't b an accident...there must b a purpose...

Enderwig 16-Jan-2003 21:20

Quote:

(Originally posted by ton4052)

so u believe that u "evolve" for hydrogens....hehe
that means if the atoms didn't bang together....we wouldn't be here...that means it is an accident...does it also mean life is an accident?!...

me...i don't think so...life can't b an accident...there must b a purpose...
i wouldnt say it was an accident just a concequence of the natural laws of the universe. As to there being a purpose for life, i dont see why there must be one. Maybe that makes you feel uncomfortable, so what. Personally i can give my own life a purpose that i chose and i dont see why there must be some predetermined purpose for the existance of life. Its just something that happened. What we choose to do with our lives is what gives them there purpose and meaning, not the fact that we have lives nor forfilling of a gods whim.

escher2003 16-Jan-2003 21:22

Quote:

(Originally posted by ton4052)

so u believe that u "evolve" for hydrogens....hehe
that means if the atoms didn't bang together....we wouldn't be here...that means it is an accident...does it also mean life is an accident?!...

me...i don't think so...life can't b an accident...there must b a purpose...
true, if the atoms hadn't fused into everything else, then we wouldn't exist. it's not nessessarily an accident, but it is by chance. also, there was an error in my previous reply, there are only supposed to 34 zeros.

Angelic Death 16-Jan-2003 22:38

I beleive in...
  • Big Bang
  • Evolution
  • Something is out there...

I don't beleive in God, the bible or any of the religions.
I beleive that something is out there...

Talking about religion...

(About religious war) "You're basically fighting to see who has the best imaginary friend" - Rich Jeni

(Hope ya dont mind Darkskies (; )

webman88 16-Jan-2003 23:50

Quote:

(Originally posted by Enderwig)

i wouldnt say it was an accident just a concequence of the natural laws of the universe.
and who invented these laws? what makes an atom do what an atom does?

TAB69 16-Jan-2003 23:59

God need mean nothing more than "love". The Bible says, "God is love."

Do you love anyone at all? If so, then you do believe in God. Wake up.

DavidFF7 17-Jan-2003 00:04

Do I believe in God?
No, I do not.

I am a realist, and for me to believe things, I have to see proof, I can't just say 'Wow, a Priest and my parents and everyone I know believes in God, therefore he must exist'.

However, if actual proof is given of his existence, I will immediately change my standpoint on this matter. So I am open to belief, and I guess I'll term myself an 'agnostic' for now, since I acknowledge the possibility.

I don't not believe in him because I am anti-religious, I don't believe in the existence of a God because, to put it simply, there is nothing pointing to that statement being true.

ZeroGenesis 17-Jan-2003 00:09

Yeah totally True webman88... You get the "laws of the universe", and you get "science" and you get people trying to understand what they are and how they work in relation to other objects, etc. But no scientist I have ever heard of has come up with an explanation of how these "laws" came into existence and WHY they work. (;


TAB69: You can love someone without believing in God. The fact that you people can love is just evidence of his existence that can be taken a few steps further. So many people on these boards just don't see things your way :(

ZeroGenesis 17-Jan-2003 00:11

Quote:

(Originally posted by DavidFF7)

Do I believe in God?
No, I do not.

I am a realist, and for me to believe things, I have to see proof, I can't just say 'Wow, a Priest and my parents and everyone I know believes in God, therefore he must exist'.

However, if actual proof is given of his existence, I will immediately change my standpoint on this matter. So I am open to belief, and I guess I'll term myself an 'agnostic' for now, since I acknowledge the possibility.

I don't not believe in him because I am anti-religious, I don't believe in the existence of a God because, to put it simply, there is nothing pointing to that statement being true.

Open your eyes and see, DavidFF7...

Chizzy3 17-Jan-2003 00:18

wow...
 
I don't believe in god or a greater being, not to say that humans are the most sentient races in the universe...

Everything that has happened, over billiions of years, has a scientific explanation, stars formed through gases compounding of hydrogen and oxygen...a star dies when it runs out of hydrogen to burn..they have proof of this..aka supernovas, red giants..

Religion is based on fear.

If god were all powerful..why are they 150+ elements...
why would not everything just magically exist. Does your heart stop because god stops it???? no it stops from a lack of blood.

ManjiBear 17-Jan-2003 00:21

Alright, I gots a questionz for yoos!
Big Bang Theory, Hydrogen atoms, heat and energy, speed of light, expansion and space..... But I gots to sez: How can SOMETHING come from NOTHING????
Another higher power? As for priests, angels, heaven and hell, religious texts, as was mentioned earlier, these are all man-made objects and titles. Religion is complex but today's world as well as the past has always missed its fundamental point, to basically respect your fellow man/woman. Crusades/jihad/cleansings etc. etc. are just unjustified actions, they have nothing to do with God's will. There is nothing gained in killing others, in God's view that is.

Chizzy3 17-Jan-2003 00:25

...
 
the universe didn't come from nothing....dark matter is what they're calling it...i find it a little hard to understand but they have proof of this....from well a very long time a go...when they think the universe was created are these things called quasars..they give off waves of energy which prove that the big bang theory is at least partialy correct.

AznBlade 17-Jan-2003 00:47

Re: wow...
 
Quote:

(Originally posted by Canuckzown)
Religion is based on fear.
And so are laws, goverment, and just about everything else humans have created.
Quote:

If god were all powerful..why are they 150+ elements...
why would not everything just magically exist. Does your heart stop because god stops it???? no it stops from a lack of blood.
Why are there 150+ elements? Well, why not? I'm theistic evolutionist so I believe almost anything could've happened, but one hypothesis that makes sense to me is that God wanted to establish an order to the unvierse, so created the laws.
-=-=-=-=--=-=-=-=-=-=-
Quote:

Alright, I gots a questionz for yoos!
Big Bang Theory, Hydrogen atoms, heat and energy, speed of light, expansion and space..... But I gots to sez: How can SOMETHING come from NOTHING????
That's one of the problems about the big bang. Some say the energy was always around. I believe God created the mass and "supercharged" it for the big bang.

Here's how I see the big bang:
1) A wad of energy came into existance by God
2) The energy "supercharged" and became mass... this mass was divided into 2 different types- matter and dark/anti matter.
3) Both types of matter negated eachother, so they basically had a "war". Matter and anti-matter continually negated eachother, but in the end, there was more matter than anti matter. This explains:
a) Why such a concentration of energy would result in such a little ammount of mass
b) Radioactivity- A theory is that radioactivity and some forms of energy were released when the molecules negated eachother
4) The mass eventually gravitated towards eachother and started to form stars, planets, etc.

There's a few missing points, but that's my general view of the big bang.

Hurleyy 17-Jan-2003 01:21

Quote:

Alright, I gots a questionz for yoos!
Big Bang Theory, Hydrogen atoms, heat and energy, speed of light, expansion and space..... But I gots to sez: How can SOMETHING come from NOTHING????
guess god cant exist either.. he is supposedly something from nothing..

Quote:

And so are laws, goverment, and just about everything else humans have created.
yes religion is something humans created. because a god certainly didnt.

uiman 17-Jan-2003 01:30

Quote:

(Originally posted by Enderwig)

id say the evidence pointed more to you needing a new car!
I believe he meant his evidence that he survived w/out it breaking at the wrong time but at a safe time means there is a divine being looking out for him out there. What has that got to do with a new car when he's relieved about being alive with his daughter? If he wanted to show you guys he needed a new car he would definately go instead of telling about the car and not about the daughter etc. Why so long winded then? bah...if this an attempt to make a joke out of a real life experience which could have caused death, well...wonderful sense of humour you got there

uiman 17-Jan-2003 01:35

Quote:

(Originally posted by ManjiBear)

Alright, I gots a questionz for yoos!
Big Bang Theory, Hydrogen atoms, heat and energy, speed of light, expansion and space..... But I gots to sez: How can SOMETHING come from NOTHING????
Another higher power? As for priests, angels, heaven and hell, religious texts, as was mentioned earlier, these are all man-made objects and titles. Religion is complex but today's world as well as the past has always missed its fundamental point, to basically respect your fellow man/woman. Crusades/jihad/cleansings etc. etc. are just unjustified actions, they have nothing to do with God's will. There is nothing gained in killing others, in God's view that is.
Another one of those that just blames war on religion instead of men's lust for power and greed. Jihad was interpreted wrongly by Osama and co. Their actions do not speak for the millions of muslim. It is just stated that if someone oppresses your religion you fight them. Isnt it the same msg your parents give you? Hey son, if someone picks on you and hits you make sure you're not a stoner and punch them back! So are you saying your parents encourages fights/wars too? Think before you blame religion on everything. Its really pathetic that ppl will blame religion etc when its the ppl that make up how a religion works...just like how Osama chose to interpret jihad and brainwash others to follow him. Its ironic you're criticising something you would do if someone decided to oppress you. By the way, how would you know in God's view there is something to be gained in killing? You met him before? Brilliant. You know how He thinks because you're another ultimate being? Brilliant! Do not assume things for God just the same as you wouldnt want me to assume things about you. Most important of all, do not blame others for things men do...that is just utter BS.

uiman 17-Jan-2003 01:40

Re: wow...
 
Quote:

(Originally posted by Canuckzown)

I don't believe in god or a greater being, not to say that humans are the most sentient races in the universe...

Everything that has happened, over billiions of years, has a scientific explanation, stars formed through gases compounding of hydrogen and oxygen...a star dies when it runs out of hydrogen to burn..they have proof of this..aka supernovas, red giants..

Religion is based on fear.

If god were all powerful..why are they 150+ elements...
why would not everything just magically exist. Does your heart stop because god stops it???? no it stops from a lack of blood.
And who are you to know what a God SHOULD do or not? Since when did you get promoted to 2nd man in charge after God? Just because He chooses not to act in your way, makes you right? Wow that would make you......God! Ironic isnt it? Ppl here posting about how God SHOULD THINK OR ACT when they dont believe in one.

escher2003 17-Jan-2003 02:18

Quote:

(Originally posted by ManjiBear)

Alright, I gots a questionz for yoos!
Big Bang Theory, Hydrogen atoms, heat and energy, speed of light, expansion and space..... But I gots to sez: How can SOMETHING come from NOTHING????
for this we delve into the world of quantum mechanics. at every moment in time, in nearly every point in space, there are particles popping out of nothing. they always come in pairs, the particle and the antiparticle. because they come frome nothing, they can't exist and so they are called virtual particles. the laws of quantum mechanics destroy these particles before they have the chance to interact with real particles. they are smashes out of existence when their gravitational forces attract each other and they cancel each other out, annihilating them both. if they were allowed to exist, the particles would join other particles and the antiparticles would join other antiparticles to create protons, antiprotons, etc. which create hydrogen and so on.

(Underlined parts are supposed to Be exponents)

well, this is exactly what happened during inflation (For clarification, inflation started at T{time}=10-34 seconds and lasted until T=170x10-34 seconds expanding at a rate of Universe{U}2 every 10-34 seconds, therefore doubling 170 times). the particles and antiparticles got so far away from each other that they became real.

you all better read this reply, it took me almost half an hour!!!

Chizzy3 17-Jan-2003 02:29

Quote:

(Originally posted by AznBlade)

And so are laws, goverment, and just about everything else humans have created.
So you admit that religion is based on fear...so the common person that believes in it is just afraid of life and death. 0] by the way, I would not be surpised if we make contact with aliens in our life...do you think they will be christian? believe in our god?? DEAR GOD!!! WHICH ONE OF US IS RIGHT..people believe in god to ease their fears of life.

TAB69 17-Jan-2003 02:39

It is impossible to believe in something that is proven. Belief is trusting that something "is" when there is no proof.
The Bible quotes Jesus Christ as having said, "If you love one another, then you believe in me and do the things I say."

What about what Christ said about that? Do you not trust that Christ spoke for Himself when he said that. He was talking about what He sees in people. He described them as His followers and believers if they would only show love towards one another.

Even your communicating to me to see your point of view is a form of love towards me as it is for my benefit as well that my mind is open enough to the thoughts of my fellow human being. Patience is not possible without love, and yet you show patience when you communicate with others. In other words, you love them, to one degree or another. That is love inside of you manifesting in the world. That is what Jesus taught, and that is what you do, even though you claim to be atheist.

So, yes, Zero..., if you do love someone, then you do believe in God. Because "God is love", and if you don't believe in love, then how can you say that you love someone? If you don't believe in love, then how can you describe how you feel about someone as love. God is love. Love is God. That is what The Bible says.

Maybe there is no such thing as an atheist. If there is, prove it, rather than merely say it. If you don't believe in God (love), then why don't you prove it by not showing any love at all towards anyone?

AznBlade 17-Jan-2003 02:42

Quote:

(Originally posted by Canuckzown)
So you admit that religion is based on fear...so the common person that believes in it is just afraid of life and death. 0] by the way, I would not be surpised if we make contact with aliens in our life...do you think they will be christian? believe in our god?? DEAR GOD!!! WHICH ONE OF US IS RIGHT..people believe in god to ease their fears of life.
No, I said religion is based on fear. Religion is the insitution. There's a difference in religion and belief. And, maybe aliens do believe in God. Who knows?

The belief on God is based on hundereds of variables. All people are different. Some are indeed motivated by fear. Others use it for meaning in their lives, some are raised that way, and still others believe that there just is a higher being.

TAB69 17-Jan-2003 02:54

Let me put it this way.
If you had to choose between all the emotions, because you were son going to be forced to live the rest of your life experienceing only one of them, which would you choose?

If you chose hunger, then you would be constantly hungry. Ouch! That wouldn't be very fun. If you chose anger, you would probably die of heart conditions very young. If you chose lust, then you would be exhausted all the time. Etc.

Love is the only one that would allow you to live any kind of meaningful life. This is one of the questions The Bible asks of me.

If you can think of a better one than love, please let me know, so that I may consider it too. "God is love."

Stormscape 17-Jan-2003 02:59

Christianity is probably why so many Europeans died in the crusades. Because "God" told them to. More likely than that it was promise of riches in Palestine that incited the massacre of Muslims and Crusaders. You can see their lack of willpower when they invaded Constantinople in the 1400's due to bribes...
The church caused hundreds of thousands of deaths.
The Vikings
The Muslims
The Palestinians
The Romans
The Saxons

The deaths.
Vikings. If the church had not angered them so in the 700's, hundreds of monks, Vikings and Saxons would not have died.

Muslims. If the chruch had not gone insane over Jeruselum when christians were being tourtured and tried diplomatics, The muslims would not have been killed, nor the Chrisitans.

Palestinians. If Jesus had not preached, the Palestinians would have been slaughtered and Peter and Paul would have lived longer, along with Jesus.

Romans. The Jesus incident was the first problem. Then incomtempent emperors secured the fall.

Saxons. Saxons, at least some died in the name of "god".

If you feel any information is incorrect, please do not hesitate to correct me.

TAB69 17-Jan-2003 03:05

Where the people here in America inspired of God to free the black slaves?

If you had only two choices:
1. To be the kind of person who eases the suffering of others.

2. To be the kind of person who brings suffering upon others.

If you would choose 1., then you would believe in God.
If you would choose 2., then you would not believe in God.

Cuivienen 17-Jan-2003 03:51

I find the previous post outrageous, in that it implies that you must believe in God to be compassionate. I would like to point out that it is perfectly possible not to believe in God and still think slavery is bad. I would like to point out that the Confederacy was also almost entirely Christian and yet couldn't get it through their skulls that slavery was wrong. That post just... shocks me so much that I can't even organize my thoughts.

TAB69 17-Jan-2003 04:02

What I imply about what I must do in order to remain true to God's principles should not have any effect on you whatsoever. But if they do, well I'm not sure what to think about that.

I am not trying to tell you or anyone else what I think anyone other than me should do. I find it absolutely absurd that you are so into thinking that my take is somehow me trying to tell you how it is for anyone other than myself.

My use of the word "would" is purely to postulate a hypothetical.

I assure you though, that slavery is not a true christian principle. Christ never preached the keeping of slaves to his disciples, and encouraged them to treat all men as equals in Him. Those confederates who kept slaves were not truly christian, as they broke many of God's commandments. They followed their religion, called christianity, not Christ.

I think you should try to understand that what someone says about something is not necessarily something being made into natural law regarding you. I personally don't care what you do with you're life. Why would I? And yet, HA HA HA, you think that I am trying to change you or something.

Stormscape 17-Jan-2003 06:06

If you proof read my post: SORRY!
Christianity is probably why so many Europeans died in the crusades. Because "God" told them to. More likely than that it was promise of riches in Palestine that incited the massacre of Muslims and Crusaders. You can see their lack of willpower when they invaded Constantinople in the 1400's due to bribes...
The church caused hundreds of thousands of deaths.
The Vikings
The Muslims
The Palestinians
The Romans
The Saxons

The deaths.
Vikings. If the church had not angered them so in the 700's, hundreds of monks, Vikings and Saxons would not have died.

Muslims. If the chruch had not gone insane over Jeruselum when christians were being tourtured and tried diplomatics, The muslims would not have been killed, nor the Chrisitans.

Palestinians. If Jesus had not preached, the Palestinians would not have been slaughtered and Peter and Paul would have lived longer, along with Jesus.

Romans. The Jesus incident was the first problem. Then incomtempent emperors secured the fall, along with Constantine and his publicty stunt...

Saxons. Saxons, at least some died in the name of "god".

TAB69 17-Jan-2003 06:10

Do you at least acknowledge that there is a difference, in terms of definition, between a "god" and "God"?
What about a "godess"?

Get this, definitively, there is no such thing as "Godess", because "God" was never meant to be thought of as a male in the worldly sense. Only in a cultural sense.

uiman 17-Jan-2003 10:42

Quote:

(Originally posted by Stormscape)

Christianity is probably why so many Europeans died in the crusades. Because "God" told them to. More likely than that it was promise of riches in Palestine that incited the massacre of Muslims and Crusaders. You can see their lack of willpower when they invaded Constantinople in the 1400's due to bribes...
The church caused hundreds of thousands of deaths.
The Vikings
The Muslims
The Palestinians
The Romans
The Saxons

The deaths.
Vikings. If the church had not angered them so in the 700's, hundreds of monks, Vikings and Saxons would not have died.

Muslims. If the chruch had not gone insane over Jeruselum when christians were being tourtured and tried diplomatics, The muslims would not have been killed, nor the Chrisitans.

Palestinians. If Jesus had not preached, the Palestinians would have been slaughtered and Peter and Paul would have lived longer, along with Jesus.

Romans. The Jesus incident was the first problem. Then incomtempent emperors secured the fall.

Saxons. Saxons, at least some died in the name of "god".

If you feel any information is incorrect, please do not hesitate to correct me.
The church that you talk about may have been run by men who were flawed or who chose to interpret the bible anyway they like it just like how osama interpreted jihad. Are you going to yell out now that islam is evil just because of osama killing thousands? Why are there so many fools out there who blame religion when its the fault of men? Next, are you going to say the environment is ruined because ONE guy decided to burn the forests or chop down the amazon? OMG...when an accident occurs are you going to say man that dude was hindu and because of his religion someone died? Thats just BS. The past may have been flawed but it doesnt mean it will forever be that way. I'm sure you've done wrongs in the past, does that mean you're that way forever? Or why not I blame atheists (if you are one, ONLY IF YOU ARE ONE) and say f*cking asshole is criticising God and throwing blame at religion because he doesnt believe in them. Is it fair to generalise all those like you just because of your ignorance? Answer that question before throwing crap like this again

AznBlade 18-Jan-2003 00:24

Quote:

(Originally posted by Stormscape)
If you proof read my post: SORRY!
Christianity is probably why so many Europeans died in the crusades. Because "God" told them to. More likely than that it was promise of riches in Palestine that incited the massacre of Muslims and Crusaders. You can see their lack of willpower when they invaded Constantinople in the 1400's due to bribes...
The church caused hundreds of thousands of deaths.
The Vikings
The Muslims
The Palestinians
The Romans
The Saxons
The church of the time was of the Catholic church. The church is run by people, not God or Jesus. All people have flaws and every once in a while any institution will experience corruption. The greater the influence, the worse it is when the corruption comes.
Quote:

The deaths.
Vikings. If the church had not angered them so in the 700's, hundreds of monks, Vikings and Saxons would not have died.
Angered how?
Quote:

Muslims. If the chruch had not gone insane over Jeruselum when christians were being tourtured and tried diplomatics, The muslims would not have been killed, nor the Chrisitans.
Your point? There were a few corrupt in power at the time. They used religion as a facade to lead and inspire people. In this instance, it was used as a tool of politics to gain land and power.
Quote:

Palestinians. If Jesus had not preached, the Palestinians would not have been slaughtered and Peter and Paul would have lived longer, along with Jesus.
Actually, they would've. The Palestinian/Israeli contraversy is over Judaism and Islam.

By what you say, I could say the same about any event in history.

Example:
Humanity. If humans hadn't come into existance, trillions wouldn't have died.
Therefore humanity is bad, correct?
Quote:

Romans. The Jesus incident was the first problem. Then incomtempent emperors secured the fall, along with Constantine and his publicty stunt...
From what I remember of the Roman empire, it became soo big that it was too hard to govern and military was too spread out to deal with all of the constant attacks from Germans, etc.
Quote:

Saxons. Saxons, at least some died in the name of "god".
I could say the same about anything there.

Americans, at least some died in the name of "law". Should law be considered as vile as you put God as?

You blame a lot on Jesus. How about trying to study what you argue first? The preachings of Jesus helped many gain morals, values, etc. It's helped forged peace between people and give hope to those without it. Try to consider the good and bad.

Shadowdaggerz 18-Jan-2003 03:32

Impressive
 
Quote:

(Originally posted by escher2003)

for this we delve into the world of quantum mechanics. at every moment in time, in nearly every point in space, there are particles popping out of nothing. they always come in pairs, the particle and the antiparticle. because they come frome nothing, they can't exist and so they are called virtual particles. the laws of quantum mechanics destroy these particles before they have the chance to interact with real particles. they are smashes out of existence when their gravitational forces attract each other and they cancel each other out, annihilating them both. if they were allowed to exist, the particles would join other particles and the antiparticles would join other antiparticles to create protons, antiprotons, etc. which create hydrogen and so on.

(Underlined parts are supposed to Be exponents)

well, this is exactly what happened during inflation (For clarification, inflation started at T{time}=10-34 seconds and lasted until T=170x10-34 seconds expanding at a rate of Universe{U}2 every 10-34 seconds, therefore doubling 170 times). the particles and antiparticles got so far away from each other that they became real.

you all better read this reply, it took me almost half an hour!!!
Wow. But since I'm not familiar with the theory (being in high school :lol), I'd have to ask why, "at every moment in time, in nearly every point in space, there are particles popping out of nothing" ? But you don't have to be so precise this time, I'm pretty sure most people (myself included) reading the thread don't understand the math lol.

escher2003 18-Jan-2003 05:07

Re: Impressive
 
Quote:

(Originally posted by Shadowdaggerz)

Wow. But since I'm not familiar with the theory (being in high school :lol), I'd have to ask why, "at every moment in time, in nearly every point in space, there are particles popping out of nothing" ? But you don't have to be so precise this time, I'm pretty sure most people (myself included) reading the thread don't understand the math lol.
i'm only 17, i'm in high school, too. as for why virtual particles show up, no one really knows why. and for the math, it's basically 10 to the negative 34th power, or ten divided by ten, thirty four times to get a decimal with 34 zeros and then a 1, ie. 0.00000000000000000000000000000000001

get it?

D Man 18-Jan-2003 06:39

Quote:

(Originally posted by Stormscape)

Saxons. Saxons, at least some died in the name of "god".

Many people have also died in the name of "love."

OMG, love is so bad, lets ban it, some people have died and therefore we should not have it anymore. Lets forget about all the Great things that it has given us.

skuzzel 18-Jan-2003 08:44

not fair
 
its very easy to see that there are going to be very few god pll here since casting spells has been seen as a sin. so this is unfair. some cristians might not come to utopia at all so this is unfair.

ZeroGenesis 18-Jan-2003 09:14

SO true skuzzel. Unfortunately on every religious topic here you will get an extremely biased view in favour of anti-god people. At least there are several dedicated non-atheists who post here...

And I don't think that the magical component in Utopia is the main reason why there aren't so many dedicated Christians here - after all, Utopia is just a game.

*Sigh*

(Mostly, the only people who post in the religious threads here are either people who don't believe trying to convince themselves they're right, or people who do trying to convince the people who don't that they're wrong).

Drizzt 18-Jan-2003 14:11

Quote:

(Originally posted by Stormscape)

Christianity is probably why so many Europeans died in the crusades. Because "God" told them to. More likely than that it was promise of riches in Palestine that incited the massacre of Muslims and Crusaders. You can see their lack of willpower when they invaded Constantinople in the 1400's due to bribes...
The church caused hundreds of thousands of deaths.
The Vikings
The Muslims
The Palestinians
The Romans
The Saxons

The deaths.
Vikings. If the church had not angered them so in the 700's, hundreds of monks, Vikings and Saxons would not have died.

Muslims. If the chruch had not gone insane over Jeruselum when christians were being tourtured and tried diplomatics, The muslims would not have been killed, nor the Chrisitans.

Palestinians. If Jesus had not preached, the Palestinians would have been slaughtered and Peter and Paul would have lived longer, along with Jesus.

Romans. The Jesus incident was the first problem. Then incomtempent emperors secured the fall.

Saxons. Saxons, at least some died in the name of "god".

If you feel any information is incorrect, please do not hesitate to correct me.
ever heard of an excuse? for example, people use religion as an excuse. currently bush is using "evil" and "weapons of mass destruction" as an excuse to attack iraq. next he might use religion if his IQ decreases more.

Enderwig 18-Jan-2003 14:43

Quote:

(Originally posted by TAB69)

It is impossible to believe in something that is proven. Belief is trusting that something "is" when there is no proof.
The Bible quotes Jesus Christ as having said, "If you love one another, then you believe in me and do the things I say."

What about what Christ said about that? Do you not trust that Christ spoke for Himself when he said that. He was talking about what He sees in people. He described them as His followers and believers if they would only show love towards one another.

Even your communicating to me to see your point of view is a form of love towards me as it is for my benefit as well that my mind is open enough to the thoughts of my fellow human being. Patience is not possible without love, and yet you show patience when you communicate with others. In other words, you love them, to one degree or another. That is love inside of you manifesting in the world. That is what Jesus taught, and that is what you do, even though you claim to be atheist.

So, yes, Zero..., if you do love someone, then you do believe in God. Because "God is love", and if you don't believe in love, then how can you say that you love someone? If you don't believe in love, then how can you describe how you feel about someone as love. God is love. Love is God. That is what The Bible says.

Maybe there is no such thing as an atheist. If there is, prove it, rather than merely say it. If you don't believe in God (love), then why don't you prove it by not showing any love at all towards anyone?
im not sure how zero loving someone means he believes in god??!! the prob is yes everyone (mostly) believes in love, but not everyone believes god is love. So they can believe in love and love someone without believing in god or that their love has anything to do with any god.

As to proving atheists exhist well im one and i have a birth certificate to prove i exhist. i still show love to people though because (IMHO) love isnt god.

AznBlade 18-Jan-2003 17:39

Quote:

(Originally posted by escher2003)
i'm only 17, i'm in high school, too. as for why virtual particles show up, no one really knows why. and for the math, it's basically 10 to the negative 34th power, or ten divided by ten, thirty four times to get a decimal with 34 zeros and then a 1, ie. 0.00000000000000000000000000000000001

get it?
Wait, wasn't antimatter already completely converted to energy during the big bang?

And, if they do come in pairs, wouldn't the antimatter be instantaneously be negated by the regular matter that comes with it?

Shadowdaggerz 18-Jan-2003 21:23

Yeah, I understand exponents lol. We learned that in grade 5 or 6. But it's Quantum mechanics that we were never taught. I think we're gonna learn that next year...
Quote:

AznBlade:

Wait, wasn't antimatter already completely converted to energy during the big bang?

And, if they do come in pairs, wouldn't the antimatter be instantaneously be negated by the regular matter that comes with it?
The Big Bang is still going, actually. But you probably mean the first moments of it, so yes. That is, the antimatter that was produced then was. That's the reason for the Law of Conservation (I think that's what it's called... :o). Basically, according to the law no matter can ever be destroyed or created. (Matter can be transformed into energy, but not destroyed). But Quantum mechanics don't seem to agree lol. But I really know nothing about Quantum mechanics, so I dunno.

ZeroGenesis 19-Jan-2003 00:42

PROOF please!

asunti2506 19-Jan-2003 02:28

ZeroGenesis, if you want proof for the Big Bang, then you are completely insane. You cannot proof something you didn't observe. However, we can supply evidence. I'll admit my knowledge of theoretical physics is extremely limited; maybe a physics professor at an university can explain it to you :)

Rabbousamai 19-Jan-2003 02:42

hmm...if you want proof of the big bang, i think you have to say what sort of thing you would accept as proof. I think the same has to be said for any religious belief...What would be needed to make you not believe in god? I know i would convert to christianity if god came down and asked me...

TAB69 19-Jan-2003 02:46

Quote:

(Originally posted by ZeroGenesis)

PROOF please!
Why do you need proof so bad? Are you going to sell it on the internet for a million dollars? If you want proof so bad, then go out there and get it for yourself! It's not anybody else's task to supply you with what you need, just so you don't have to be thought of as some kind of fool without it. If you are uncomfortable talking about something that there is no proof of, then that is your principle of honesty or integrity, or perhaps your fear of being potentially wrong. I truly think that is what it must be. But, if there is no proof and you still want to talk about it, then you are just addicted to your own arguement that you have simple-mindedly and at the same time cleverly adopted as undefeatable. But, we who do not require proof in order to contemplate certain topics are perfectly content in not being absolutists or 100%ists or whatever all you proof-hounds call yourselves.

Rabbousamai 19-Jan-2003 03:45

Asking for proof is a bit much...asking for evidence is understandable though, although the question still remains regarding what sort of evidence would constitute evidence for the big bang. I think the fact that things are more or less moving away from each other (as can be demonstrated by the doppler effect applied to light) constitutes evidence they started at a central point and started moving outwards

escher2003 19-Jan-2003 03:49

Quote:

(Originally posted by ZeroGenesis)

PROOF please!
think about this, zero. is there really any possible way to prove that anything in the past has happened? all you have learned about in history books is just what people say happened. there is no way around this. george washington may have been the first US president, but how do we know that? because somebody told us. that person was told by someone else and that person by someone else. if you continue down the line, you will eventually get to a person who saw GW as the president. we work backward to discover this and that is what physicists do. they do all the math backwards until the only possible solution comes out to be the big bang

TAB69 19-Jan-2003 03:51

Proof and evidence may yet be proved to be the same thing, as there is, as of yet, no documented existence of any indisputable evidence or indisputable proof, except of course on videotape. Daaahort!

escher2003 19-Jan-2003 03:52

ooh, i'm really proud of myself for that last one. ahh, so much like excellent poetry.

escher2003 19-Jan-2003 03:54

Quote:

(Originally posted by TAB69)

Proof and evidence may yet be proved to be the same thing, as there is, as of yet, no documented existence of any indisputable evidence or indisputable proof, except of course on videotape. Daaahort!
these days, video evidence means very little

lonor1 19-Jan-2003 03:57

Quote:

(Originally posted by PhoenixBD)

That is very similar to what I believe. The bible was written by men. So it could all just be a load of crap. It gets me very aggrivated trying to explain to a Christian that the bible was just written by men and isn't true.
yeah but god gave the word to the men to write it

Rabbousamai 19-Jan-2003 03:58

Im sure if god wanted people to worship him he's more than capable of asking. Why rely on people, who he knows are faulty, to pass down a few words over hundreds of generations? Why not just come and say something? Im sure i would become christian if god showed up at my front door

kosoccer 19-Jan-2003 04:00

God!
 
You guys are trying to thnk to hard about "what made god" and other. Remember this point : God is above our understanding, we try to comprehend this sytuff, when God mentions in the Bible that he is above our minds...we cannot fuly comprehend! :o

escher2003 19-Jan-2003 04:03

Quote:

(Originally posted by AznBlade)

Wait, wasn't antimatter already completely converted to energy during the big bang?

And, if they do come in pairs, wouldn't the antimatter be instantaneously be negated by the regular matter that comes with it?
like i said, usually they do destroy each other. but during inflation, so much space was filling in between them at such a high rate that they got too far away from each other to come back and be destroyed. the only other time this happens is during hawking radiation, wanna hear about that?

TAB69 19-Jan-2003 04:04

Quote:

(Originally posted by escher2003)

these days, video evidence means very little
I was being sarcastic. And what makes you think that the christians are doing anything wrong in believing. They didn't ask for your worthless pity. So why do you give it. Are you telling me that you care about them, even though you argue with them about everything they believe and try to change their minds because you think that they are brainwashed. Isn't it true then that you are in fact trying to save them from foolishness, just as they are trying to save you from arrogance?

Make no mistake, I am not a christian or an atheist. I don't care for worldly labels such as those or any other. The fact is, The Bible describes believers and atheists as one and the same. You are all fellow human beings. You are to love one another.

escher2003 19-Jan-2003 04:10

Quote:

(Originally posted by TAB69)

And what makes you think that the christians are doing anything wrong in believing. They didn't ask for your worthless pity. So why do you give it. Are you telling me that you care about them, even though you argue with them about everything they believe and try to change their minds because you think that they are brainwashed. Isn't it true then that you are in fact trying to save them from foolishness, just as they are trying to save you from arrogance?
you don't mean my pity do you? 'cause i didn't say anything was wrong about believing. i too believe in god, a little differently, mind you. i am pagan and in being so, i worship all life that the god and goddess has given us.

TAB69 19-Jan-2003 04:16

Quote:

(Originally posted by escher2003)

you don't mean my pity do you? 'cause i didn't say anything was wrong about believing. i too believe in god, a little differently, mind you. i am pagan and in being so, i worship all life that the god and goddess has given us.
No. It was somewhere else someone mentioned feeling pity for christians. I don't know who it was. I just think that to say that a person feels pity for someone elses happiness is the kind of arguement that is very immature and not logic-based at all, but rather emotional and therefore, a modest cry for psychological help.

AznBlade 19-Jan-2003 18:35

Quote:

(Originally posted by Rabbousamai)
Im sure if god wanted people to worship him he's more than capable of asking. Why rely on people, who he knows are faulty, to pass down a few words over hundreds of generations? Why not just come and say something? Im sure i would become christian if god showed up at my front door
I don't know. Not everybody has all the answers. But, it could be that it would in a sense take away free will and faith. Think about it. If you have undeniable proof of God, then people are basically forced to believe. When there's undeniable proof, it becomes a fact and not faith.
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-===--=-
Quote:

like i said, usually they do destroy each other. but during inflation, so much space was filling in between them at such a high rate that they got too far away from each other to come back and be destroyed. the only other time this happens is during hawking radiation, wanna hear about that?
So then for that to happen, antimatter must be clumped and isolated, for it reacts with any regular matter around it. Why didn't it react with the matter between it?

escher2003 20-Jan-2003 00:12

Quote:

(Originally posted by AznBlade)

So then for that to happen, antimatter must be clumped and isolated, for it reacts with any regular matter around it. Why didn't it react with the matter between it?
there was no matter, just empty space

Topia 20-Jan-2003 02:50

do i believe in god???
no
not for any reason but because of the fact the way i grew up
i was never brought to church or any form of religious services

i haf no problem with people believing in a higher being whatever they want 2 do they can

though due to my upbringing i haf 1 question if god created only adam and eve then that means all whe have be doing is thousands apon thousands of years of inbreading that means that only adam and eve were perfect because over time the flaws in the genes show up.

also what about the dinosaurs and everything there and billions of years in which Humans did not exist what did it take time for human to be made and then he just poped them in once they were completed??

big bang who knos who created it, who created the universe therre is always the what created this question and u must realize i could say who created god.

also my idea on religion is that it was a way for the church to rule without holding a posiotion of power and that is all it is
but i dont care what people think of a greater being those are my thoughts

AznBlade 20-Jan-2003 03:41

Quote:

(Originally posted by escher2003)

there was no matter, just empty space
How would space be caused then, if the two are "born" together? Wouldn't Inflation also cause more matter to be created also? If so, why didn't it react with that matter?

ton4052 20-Jan-2003 03:42

PROOF?!
 
i think i got proof...for u guys to understand...

ok...FOR EXAMPLE...(EXAMPLE ONLY GUYS)
if all the water in this world was gone...and a new born baby was to grow up...how does this baby know that water once existed on world...would he trust his parents or grandparents. after all that is how religion is past down...
NOOO...he won't...(i dunno why but his relatives maybe liars...hehe)...but instead he would believe that there is water because of the craving he has call "thrist"...how do you know water exist?...because of thrist...
now taking that as an example...

how do you know God or some higher being exist? because throughout the ages...people has been seeking for some kind of higher or intelligent being that is powerful. question is...who is IT? now some of u might say not...but look at this...Romans, Greeks, Chinese, every citizen in the world that ever exist...even i dare say...North Koreans (N Korea believes there chairperson is a "god"...just read it from a newspaper when they interview a defector).
Throughout history people has been searching...but why...WHY?!

simple. GOD PUT A LONGING IN EACH ONE OF YOUR HEART TO SEARCH FOR HIM...that simple. there is a hunger to explore...to feel accepted but someone or something.

New Nephilim 20-Jan-2003 03:49

[This reply is long, but please read it. I think even the hardcore atheists will like it. Read it slowly and keep an open mind. It's really good and it even gets a little funny. If it gets cut off I'll try to break it into smaller pieces.]

I started to read this thread and planned on reading the whole thing. I got to page 7 and realized that the pages kept coming. I checked and found out that there are 23 pages of replies. I got so upset as I read to learn what people think.

It seems to me that many of you people that don't believe in God hold this belief because you hate him. A lot of you actually seem to know quite a bit about what you're saying. Of course, some of you are just throwing out foolish replies. I'm sorry that you had so many bad experiences with organized religion. Here's how things really are;

There is a God. Volumes have been written about this. I've read many of them. I think the tally is 37 arguments for the existence of God and 2 against. They all work, I've read them. Things like "where did God come from" don't count. God, by definition, is an omnipotent being that is above and beyond our realm of existence. That means space and time don't mean anything to him as we understand it. Jesus came to earth to remedy this fact. Asking what created God is short sighted and stupid. We're not talking the guy at the controls, we're talking about God. Say it with me. God.

Jesus did exist, get over it. There are historical events of which we have much less evidence that we belive in. He was a historical figure, the question is if he was God(or some incarnation).

I know this thread is about if God exists. I'm not going to try to prove that because if you don't believe yet a utopia temple thread isn't going to change you. It probably won't even set you about looking in a serious manner. However, some of you might actually believe what I'm about to tell you. This is what your Sunday school teacher won't tell you.

All you have to do is love God. I know I sound like a bible thumper that should be bothering you while you're trying to wake up in your third cup of coffee on Satuday morning but that's really what it's all about. That's why we're here, that's how you get to heaven, that's the reason for it all. You just have to love God. In some ways that's extremely complicated and it's also utterly simple.

I'm a Christian but I think Jews can go to heaven. *gasp* Better yet, Muslims. Yes, Pagans too. Even the odd atheist. Why? Because all you have to do is love God. Of course, it's harder to love God if you're in a cult drinking the red kool-aid. It's also not easy to love God if whatver book you read that you think is sacred tells you that your religion is the only true religion(that's not uncommon but here's the kicker) and anyone who doesn't convert should be killed.

If you work hard, love your wife and kids, don't cheat too much on your taxes, put the subway fare in when the collector's not there, appretiate beauty once in a while(art, music, the cute girl over there), and recycle then you just might be okay even if you don't go to church 52 times for every trip around the sun. If you steal from your boss, cheat on your wife, gamble with your kids' college fund before beating them when they cried about you not coming to the school play, and toss the coke can out the window while driving down the highway then you better grease up your asshole before putting the shotgun in you mouth because demons are going to be shoving hot pokers up your ass for all eternity becuase you don't love your family, your friends, or yourself, not to mention God.

God's forgiving but you gotta give him a reason to want to forgive you. Don't go skinning panda bears and then pretend you're going repent on your death bed and God will have to take you because "God's forgiving and he has to take me if I'm sorry" because death bed conversions don't happen. Well, sometimes they do but I don't think there's been one since Aramaic went of out style.

Here's the bottom line. Religion is politics. Find one you like and try to love God because he loves you and "nothing ruins the taste of peanut butter like unrequited love"(it's a metaphor, figure that one out for yourself).

ton4052 20-Jan-2003 04:05

brad...all i gotta said is...

AMEN...i mean if you wake up and look outside your window and don't believe that God exist...this forum won't change you...instead i think you will put more anger toward Christians or any other religion.

we are not here to change you. we are only here to tell you Who we believe in and why.

TAB69 20-Jan-2003 05:06

Also, I think you atheists will love to this as well.

Albert Einstein, we all know who he was, the smartest guy in the world, well he believed in God. He even argued against the possibility that there is no God, with mathematics.

Ok, the most intelligent most universally recognized scientist proving the existence of God via mathematics. Sad for your atheist arguement, but if you were as smart as Einstein, and knew as much about the world as Einstein, you would not be an atheist.

The rest of us who aren't as smart as Einstein simply believe it.

Rabbousamai 20-Jan-2003 06:37

Um he didnt proove the existance of god with mathematics...can you at least post some sort of reference?

AkitoHayama 20-Jan-2003 07:16

Theres that word belief. Can you believe everything anyone tells you withought proving it to yourself? I may not be able to do the mathematics that Einstiend did. But I won't believe what he did because I can't see it. I can't see how you can derive the existance of God on a piece of paper. I am an athiest btw.

Kira676 20-Jan-2003 08:10

i prefer believing in myself. i do not want to believe that there is someone watching me and deciding if my actions are good enough or not. i live my life well. after living my good life, i die and there is a god, then i guess i will be going to heaven. i didnt do anything bad with my life. i just wanted to place my beliefs in something that i knew existed. myself.

heres a question.
since many christians believe in fate, then we can say that eve and adam were fated to eat the fruit and condemn us all. since god is the ultimate being, then he controls our fates. and he condemned all of human kind to sin. then he sends jesus to pay for our sins. so, people who died from adam and eve to jesus did not go to heaven since their sins were not forgiven. we are all born with sin. so no matter how good and pure of a life you live, you went to hell.

thoughts?

Utopian Muse 20-Jan-2003 08:51

i know shit- all about (all) religions.
i dont beleive in god or follow anyone.

TAB69 20-Jan-2003 08:52

Look you guys,
If you choose to be atheists, good for you. I'm not trying to turn you into anything, or change you in any way. You keep telling me about everything I say cannot possibly be true. And then you ask for references, even though you have already denied the possibility of any truth in what I am saying. I do know one thing that you do believe. There is no doubt about it. You are absolutely convinced that I am a pathological liar. Either that or you believe I am an idiot.

Well, I have an IQ of 155, so I'm not an idiot. Who can know if I am a liar? Not you.

Again, I don't care if you don't believe in God or anything else. I am simply attempting to get you to inform me of your own personal reasons why you are so opposed to my believing in God. I mean, why should you care what I think? Do you expect me to believe that you uphold some principle that preaches against the ignorance that you believe I suffer from? Does that not put you all into a sort of religious category? I think it puts you into the religion that I will call, "The Ones Who Give A Crap About What I Think", or "The Atheist Religion That Believes In Freeing The Believers From So-called Ignorance."

I truly desire to understand why you need to change the fact that I love God. I don't know what you think will come of my own personal adoption of God's principles in my life. I don't tell others how to live. I don't care if you live or die. I could care less about talking to any of you on a personal basis, because everything I say, you tell me is a lie.
Please explain, and try not to sound like a long-lost worried friend that feels the need to save me from my delusions or disillusions or beliefs or whatever.

Utopian Muse 20-Jan-2003 08:55

i dont think your an idiot or a liar.

you choose your religion, thats you. nothing wrong with that

TAB69 20-Jan-2003 09:11

Quote:

(Originally posted by zuzu24)

i dont think your an idiot or a liar.

you choose your religion, thats you. nothing wrong with that
That's very nice of you not pull my hair about it, but I'm not, in fact, religious. I do not care to seek anything in religion. I merely respect religion. That is all. I neither uphold it or condemn it. How could I, unless I was religious.
I could argue for or against God, it doesn't matter. I have simple beliefs for a complicated world. It gets me through.
I enjoyed reading your brief post, and responding to it. Usually my responses are coerced.

Dilbert 20-Jan-2003 09:41

Nav Darshan X-
God knew wat Adam and Eve would do but he gave us freewill, meaning he let them do as their free will desired.

also, to all good natured atheists, u wont like this but no matter how u want to escape religion, u nvr will. ur moral values r all based on religion. u got ur morals from ur parents, and they got it from their parents, and they go it from their parents, etc. this means u basically do have a religion, just wont believe in it.

Rabbousamai 20-Jan-2003 13:00

Actually, philosophy tends to suggest that morality is not based on religion. Firstly, because many different religions which did not have contact with each other managed to reach vaguely similar conditions, i.e. Don't go around slaughtering people, and other rather basic things. This seems to indicate that there is some sort of moral basis intrinsic in most humans. If you read a little, you will probably have heard of the various philosophical reasonings of the basis of morality, such as the social contract, utilitarianism, natural law, and others

Creoena 20-Jan-2003 13:52

Quote:

(Originally posted by Dilbert)
also, to all good natured atheists, u wont like this but no matter how u want to escape religion, u nvr will. ur moral values r all based on religion. u got ur morals from ur parents, and they got it from their parents, and they go it from their parents, etc. this means u basically do have a religion, just wont believe in it.
You think so? Yes it is true my parents gave me my morals, but they had NOTHING to do with religion. My parents have never been to church (at least not in the last 25 years), nor would I believe in it even if they did. One good thing about humans is individuality and the ability to believe what you want to. I don't believe in religion, or a higher being, or any of that, and I don't need anyone to make my decision for me, not my parents, or anyone. I came up with it based on my experiences and what I have believed to be true. The bible is full of fantasy idealistic stories when it does not represent anything of what actually happened in real life.

And I've never been bound by religion, so I have nothing to escape from.

Enderwig 20-Jan-2003 15:26

Quote:

(Originally posted by Dilbert)

Nav Darshan X-
God knew wat Adam and Eve would do but he gave us freewill, meaning he let them do as their free will desired.

also, to all good natured atheists, u wont like this but no matter how u want to escape religion, u nvr will. ur moral values r all based on religion. u got ur morals from ur parents, and they got it from their parents, and they go it from their parents, etc. this means u basically do have a religion, just wont believe in it.
most animals seem to have moral codes and display altruistic, moral and ethical behaviour. Or hadnt you noticed things like ritualised dominance battles and sacrificial behaviour in bees to protect others. Or even in vampire bats. THey all fly out at night and feed and then come back to the colony cave. If one bats has had a good feed then he regurgitates some of it for others in the colony who havent had any success in finding food. If they dont the bats actually remember the selfish one and refuse to feed it if it doesnt find food on another night. Now this seems to indicate morals and even a moral enforcement scheme. But i doubt animals have any kind of religion. Its simply just the evolutionary adventagous thing to do. As we ourselves are animals is it suprising that we to have morals??

atzh 20-Jan-2003 15:40

wad do u want then... a magikal thingy with gold letters on it, get real... it doesnt matter about the book, its whats in it that counts. you dont throw the bible at the devil and think the devil will run away do you

atzh 20-Jan-2003 15:45

Quote:

(Originally posted by 2883)

I am very sure that a being exists, I have looked for many things in religon that religon can not give. When I see religon such as christian, I see slavery... not to be mean or anyting but when I hear and I've heard it alot that I must give my Will over to God and then be filled by his Will it makes me sick. God gave me the power of reason, the Will to make things happen around me. He gave us so much to make us Free, yet I hear that I must give them back and become a witnessing christian? I have to freinds who are christians, one hardcore, the other relizes that the bible is man made therefore flawed. He says it opens the door, all you have to do is walk through and look for your self. That the things in the bible are both false yet real at the same time. God gave us reason, logic, Willpower, and faith in the unknown. But that faith goes against the reason and logic he gave us...

God is a mystery, we must find our own ways to him and his paradise. Through any means we have taken I belive that all religons have truth with in, those truths are shared in all other (good) religons. (not satan or anything like that)Even wicca has the same truths, but in wiccan there is a double egded blade at work, "what you send out comes back 3 fold" do evil and it does return, do good and so shall it return. Yes the bible says magic is bad, but with all things that cannot be explained it is either thrown to god as a mirical or called a curse of the dark one...


Bible-hand made by man
the forest planted by god with a single act eons ago. With has more sprirtual power? the earth gods creation, or a peice of dead organic wood with words printed to it?
goes out to the arguments abt the bible.. so wad if it is hand written

wad do u want then... a magikal thingy with gold letters on it, get real... it doesnt matter about the book, its whats in it that counts. you dont throw the bible at the devil and think the devil will run away do you

atzh 20-Jan-2003 15:47

Quote:

(Originally posted by Nav Darshan X)

heres a question.
since many christians believe in fate, then we can say that eve and adam were fated to eat the fruit and condemn us all. since god is the ultimate being, then he controls our fates. and he condemned all of human kind to sin. then he sends jesus to pay for our sins. so, people who died from adam and eve to jesus did not go to heaven since their sins were not forgiven. we are all born with sin. so no matter how good and pure of a life you live, you went to hell.

thoughts?
perheps then there is no such thing as fate

Enderwig 20-Jan-2003 18:10

Quote:

(Originally posted by atzh)

perheps then there is no such thing as fate
no fate = the future isnt set, therefor nothing can know what is actually going to happen in the future, therefor nothing can know everything, thus omnipitence is impossible thus God cannot exist if fate doesnt also exhist.

so if you believe in god then surely you must also believe in fate?

AznBlade 20-Jan-2003 18:55

Didn't I post about this already?
Quote:

since many christians believe in fate, then we can say that eve and adam were fated to eat the fruit and condemn us all. since god is the ultimate being, then he controls our fates. and he condemned all of human kind to sin. then he sends jesus to pay for our sins. so, people who died from adam and eve to jesus did not go to heaven since their sins were not forgiven. we are all born with sin. so no matter how good and pure of a life you live, you went to hell.
Quote:

no fate = the future isnt set, therefor nothing can know what is actually going to happen in the future, therefor nothing can know everything, thus omnipitence is impossible thus God cannot exist if fate doesnt also exhist.

so if you believe in god then surely you must also believe in fate?
Here's a possible explanation that I will deomstrate through a scenario.
Imagine you want to jump off a cliff. God knows what will happen if you do, what will happen if you don't, and everything in between. Try to imagine time as a tree, branching out with possibilites from every action. God is seen outside of time, and therefore knows the possibilities, but not necessarily which one you will take.

The one flaw in that is that that means God is not totally omnipotent. That's why I question omnipotence of anything. But, it can be explained through the possibility of a multiverse. For every possibility, there is another universe. But, I could be wrong for no one can fully understand God because no one has witnessed creation, etc.

escher2003 20-Jan-2003 21:22

Quote:

(Originally posted by TAB69)

Also, I think you atheists will love to this as well.

Albert Einstein, we all know who he was, the smartest guy in the world, well he believed in God. He even argued against the possibility that there is no God, with mathematics.

Ok, the most intelligent most universally recognized scientist proving the existence of God via mathematics. Sad for your atheist arguement, but if you were as smart as Einstein, and knew as much about the world as Einstein, you would not be an atheist.

The rest of us who aren't as smart as Einstein simply believe it.
good ol' al actually wasn't all that smart. he was, however, quite observant. in order for him to understand anything, he needed the equasions broken down into almost basic math. once it had been broken down, he pretty much said "oh, well why dont you try this?"

Enderwig 20-Jan-2003 21:24

Quote:

(Originally posted by AznBlade)

Didn't I post about this already?


Here's a possible explanation that I will deomstrate through a scenario.
Imagine you want to jump off a cliff. God knows what will happen if you do, what will happen if you don't, and everything in between. Try to imagine time as a tree, branching out with possibilites from every action. God is seen outside of time, and therefore knows the possibilities, but not necessarily which one you will take.

The one flaw in that is that that means God is not totally omnipotent. That's why I question omnipotence of anything. But, it can be explained through the possibility of a multiverse. For every possibility, there is another universe. But, I could be wrong for no one can fully understand God because no one has witnessed creation, etc.
the problem with multiverse is that if you follow the for every possibility there is another universe idea you get multiple gods. For god also makes choices and decisions doesnt he? if so does he knows what choices he is going to make in the future? or is there a universe for every possible choice god makes, and corespondingly another god in each one. In which case in some of the universes God will do evil. In only one universe can God make the good/right choice every time.

Unless god knows all the choices he will make and his entire future and therefore has no free will himself.

So in summary a multiverse either means multiple Gods some (all but one) who have or will do evil, or just one God who has no free will and a predetermined fate/destiny.

escher2003 20-Jan-2003 21:24

Quote:

(Originally posted by AznBlade)

How would space be caused then, if the two are "born" together? Wouldn't Inflation also cause more matter to be created also? If so, why didn't it react with that matter?
you don't seem to understand that space and matter are completely different. space is just a lack of matter.

royyor 20-Jan-2003 21:38

Quote:

(Originally posted by PhoenixBD)

God told the people to not worship idols of him. Now don't get me wrong or anything but isn't praying to a crucifix idol worshipping?

They also act like a statue or the bible is holy. Like Oh you just dropped a bible!! It is just a book for gods sake. At the church they have kneelers in front of Jesus or Mary to pray to. Idol worship?

Priests act like they are holy or something. God didn't ask you to be a priest did he? He didn't give you special powers. Really no one gave them the right to be holy. Just other men. And the whole telling your sins to a priest. Why do you need to tell a priest your sins? He isn't God. If you want to tell your sins pray or whatever.

I think it is just all a big scam so they can act like they have authority or something. Sitting under the vatican are millions of dollars in gold and art so why don't you sell that for the poor? A priest shouldn't have possesions. They are in service to the poor.

Collecting money in church. Now Jesus himself, the leading figure of Christianity, went to the temple, and flipped all the collecting tables because church isn't supposed to be about money.

If there is a God, I think man corrupted and altered what his teachings truly were, to benefit man and not spreading the word or whatever. Those are the reasons I don't believe in any organized religion.
First of all, God said not to worship FALSE IDOLS, statues and figures of God arent false idols, he never said to not worship idols of him. 2nd, Preists were appointed by God, through dreams and stuff, God does talk you know. And a priest isnt God, hes a representative of God. And im sure you know that every religion has a book that they consider holy. You are thinking of olden days when you say preists have big pictures and stuff, they dont anymore. Have you ever heard of TITHING? its giving money back to God, through the church. people arent being forced to give money, they do it because they want to.

escher2003 20-Jan-2003 21:46

Quote:

(Originally posted by AznBlade)

Didn't I post about this already?


Here's a possible explanation that I will deomstrate through a scenario.
Imagine you want to jump off a cliff. God knows what will happen if you do, what will happen if you don't, and everything in between. Try to imagine time as a tree, branching out with possibilites from every action. God is seen outside of time, and therefore knows the possibilities, but not necessarily which one you will take.

The one flaw in that is that that means God is not totally omnipotent. That's why I question omnipotence of anything. But, it can be explained through the possibility of a multiverse. For every possibility, there is another universe. But, I could be wrong for no one can fully understand God because no one has witnessed creation, etc.
there is another theory you may find interesting. physicists currently believe that there are up to 25 dimensions. we live in 4 and can manipulate 3. we are 3 dimensional. say we were 2-d and we knew only left, right, back, and forward. a 3-d being could come up to us and say "hey, 2-d escher, what's going on?" then 2-d me would say "who said that?"
"it's me, 3-d escher"
"where are you, i can't see you anywhere" 2-d me would be looking left and right, and back and forward and wouldn't see anything.
and 3-d me would say "i'm up here"
2-d me would look confused and say "up? what the hell is 'up'?"

now apply this to us, and you get a good possibility for the origin of god. perhaps, god is merely (i use that word loosely) a 4th dimensional being that we can't see when he is. i say 'when' because the 4th dimension is time and we couldn't possibly comprehend someone being 'way over then'.

TAB69 21-Jan-2003 00:07

Quote:

(Originally posted by escher2003)

good ol' al actually wasn't all that smart. he was, however, quite observant. in order for him to understand anything, he needed the equasions broken down into almost basic math. once it had been broken down, he pretty much said "oh, well why dont you try this?"
Whatever Shishkabob. You don't know anything about Albert Einstein or anybody else for that matter. You are so uptight because, obviously nobody ever taught you how to tell the difference between your right and left shoes. Get a life, and stop telling people how to live theirs!

Creoena 21-Jan-2003 00:17

TAB, do you do anything else except insult people in this thread?

New Nephilim 21-Jan-2003 00:32

I so glad that you people read my post. Take the time and perhaps you foolish people will stop bickering. Don't skim it, read it. Then maybe you'll see that a lot of this crap you're arguing about doesn't matter. It's on page 24, third from the top.

If you read nothing else then at least realize that those of you who keep coming back here to debunk the "poor misguided theists" only hate God and those who believe in him.

New Nephilim 21-Jan-2003 00:40

I so glad that you people read my post. Take the time and perhaps you foolish people will stop bickering. Don't skim it, read it. Then maybe you'll see that a lot of this crap you're arguing about doesn't matter. It's on page 24, third from the top.

If you read nothing else then at least realize that those of you who keep coming back here to debunk the "poor misguided theists" only hate God and those who believe in him.

TAB69 21-Jan-2003 00:41

Quote:

(Originally posted by brad333)



If you read nothing else then at least realize that those of you who keep coming back here to debunk the "poor misguided theists" only hate God and those who believe in him.
Thank You, Brad333.

AznBlade 21-Jan-2003 01:04

Quote:

(Originally posted by Enderwig)

the problem with multiverse is that if you follow the for every possibility there is another universe idea you get multiple gods. For god also makes choices and decisions doesnt he? if so does he knows what choices he is going to make in the future? or is there a universe for every possible choice god makes, and corespondingly another god in each one. In which case in some of the universes God will do evil. In only one universe can God make the good/right choice every time.

Unless god knows all the choices he will make and his entire future and therefore has no free will himself.

So in summary a multiverse either means multiple Gods some (all but one) who have or will do evil, or just one God who has no free will and a predetermined fate/destiny.
I said it can be explained, I didn't say I believed it. Multiverses just seem too odd with too many flaws. You can't expect people to have all the answers about something that's a mystery.

Perhaps it could be just one God with a destiny. But, that would take away God's omnipotence. Or maybe God just chooses to be guided by destiny. Who knows?

Kira676 21-Jan-2003 02:00

it is impossible that someone would grow up with no contact with religion in any manner. morals are instilled within us from the entire society. most people believe in the same morals. the bible may teach morals, but morals are not because of the bible.

i like the idea of the multiverse. it allows so many possibilities. for the whole multiple god thing, there are multiple gods even if there is no multiverse. time is constantly moving and therefore the god of 2 mins past still exists in that time. and each time god makes a decision god changes, just like any one.

about god giving us free will. if fate exists, isnt free will just an illusion? we think we have the choice to do anything and we feel as though we are, but in reality the choices are our fate. and god still could have not damned us by not creating us. i just think that this is a bit hypicritical.

Rabbousamai 21-Jan-2003 02:27

Quote:

There is a God. Volumes have been written about this. I've read many of them. I think the tally is 37 arguments for the existence of God and 2 against.
That would be an interesting document...I don't suppose you have a link for it or anything?

Shadowdaggerz 21-Jan-2003 03:21

Debate
 
I think alot of people have either forgotten (or missed entirely) the point of these threads. Well, of course maybe I completely missed the point... But that's for another thread :lol. Anyway, as I was saying. I'm not here to convert anyone and, in case your wondering, it's unlikely anyone's going to convert me. I'm here to debate and talk about it. People have said throughout history that true peace can only be found in total communication and understanding. Don't ruin their ideals with intolerant flaming. Even if I don't believe what you believe, I can still understand why you believe it. Really, everything is human concepts. Even if God exist, it is impossible to believe in him; you simply believe in your concept of him. Or so I believe. Go right ahead and debate, don't flame. Thank you.

Food for thought:
In the world of human thought generally, and in physical science particularly, the most important and fruitful concepts are those to which it is impossible to attach a well-defined meaning.
~H. A. Kramers~

escher2003 21-Jan-2003 05:14

Quote:

(Originally posted by TAB69)

Whatever Shishkabob. You don't know anything about Albert Einstein or anybody else for that matter. You are so uptight because, obviously nobody ever taught you how to tell the difference between your right and left shoes. Get a life, and stop telling people how to live theirs!
did you just call me a shish kabab? learn to spell you f***ing idiot. through this entire thread, you've done nothing but agree with me until now, when you hear that your beliefs of albert einstien are incorrect. you could have merely taken it as my personal opinion, but you had to go and insult me. i agree that einstien was the most influential person in the development of modern physics. but that does not mean he was the smartest person in the world. it is currently a common belief that stephen hawking is the smartest person ever to have lived, although that has yet to be verified. whether you consider me to be assorted meats and vegetables barbecued on a stick or not seems quite irrelevent to the topic. so you can go around ranting whatever the bullshit is that you come up with next, but everyone you meet will just smile and nod, then walk away.

Xelloss 21-Jan-2003 06:39

Brad333,

you can't just generalise all atheists as misguided, god-hating people. I can't say the same for some people though since there are a lot of intolerant people here (not just in this thread)
Some of us actually have a reason to not believe in god, i mentioned before in another thread. I believed that the concept of god was created a long time ago to answer questions that cannot be explained at the time. By having a god it also makes people think about what they are doing, if people know they will be judged when they die then they will be more considerate of their actions. Now with science and all we don't need to rely on god for answers, since everything can be explained through science. What we believe as an act of god can now be explained as a part of nature or explained through science.

personally i lke god and religon, it makes people nicer. Gives them more of a reason to live and at least they have some idea of what the meaning of life is. For us it is just make money and die. I wanted to believe in god but i can't, its just too difficult to believe that a being like that excists. Basically I dont have a strong enough faith to believe. To me if I do i'm just lying to myself since i can't see any proof of god's excistence that cannot be disproved by science

atzh 21-Jan-2003 16:11

Quote:

(Originally posted by Enderwig)

no fate = the future isnt set, therefor nothing can know what is actually going to happen in the future, therefor nothing can know everything, thus omnipitence is impossible thus God cannot exist if fate doesnt also exhist.

so if you believe in god then surely you must also believe in fate?
so then if u belive in fate tt means u blieve in god? go figure

Ketam 21-Jan-2003 18:07

Quote:

(Originally posted by brad333)

I so glad that you people read my post. Take the time and perhaps you foolish people will stop bickering. Don't skim it, read it. Then maybe you'll see that a lot of this crap you're arguing about doesn't matter. It's on page 24, third from the top.

If you read nothing else then at least realize that those of you who keep coming back here to debunk the "poor misguided theists" only hate God and those who believe in him.
brad333 is maybe the most logically minded person here, he has my vote.... nothing we post here CHANGES anything does it? I wouldn't go so far as to say that this is a waste of time, but we COULD spend the time more constructively....

Kira676 21-Jan-2003 19:26

Quote:

(Originally posted by Shadowdaggerz)
Food for thought:
In the world of human thought generally, and in physical science particularly, the most important and fruitful concepts are those to which it is impossible to attach a well-defined meaning.
~H. A. Kramers~
That's because we are trying to find ways to prove one side right and the other one wrong. We look for ways to get around other laws/beliefs. It is fun to try and argue and win against a subject with no real answer but your own personal belief.

agentbud 21-Jan-2003 19:39

Who knows.

I'm gonna be awfully pissed if i go on being all nice all the time and there ain't no heaven to go to when im dead.

Shadowdaggerz 21-Jan-2003 23:10

[AGH, I got a blue screen of death and lost my whole message. Well, I'll just redo it... but slightly more condensed.]

Ahh, to live life fully and hope there's no heaven, or not to and hope there is ? To be or not to be, that is the question :lol

Anyway, I have a real question. How many of you actually worship [insert appropriate word] for the sake of worshipping [insert appropriate word], and how many do it out of fear of divine punishment and/or hopes of divine reward?

Rabbousamai 22-Jan-2003 00:29

Here's an example of a proof for god which does not rely on evidence. Obvioiusly, it has some faults, but its still quite a nice piece, and kinda the thing im looking for

God exists.
None of the sentences in this pair is true.

Im sure we can all spot the rather glaring problem, but still...if u think about it, the only way to make the sentences make sense is to say God exists is true.

Shadowdaggerz 22-Jan-2003 00:32

huh?
 
I... don't quite get your logic. :nerd :lol

MetroStar 22-Jan-2003 00:36

who cares let them kill de americans or better yet let them kill theirselves....

AznBlade 22-Jan-2003 00:37

Quote:

(Originally posted by Rabbousamai)

Here's an example of a proof for god which does not rely on evidence. Obvioiusly, it has some faults, but its still quite a nice piece, and kinda the thing im looking for

God exists.
None of the sentences in this pair is true.

Im sure we can all spot the rather glaring problem, but still...if u think about it, the only way to make the sentences make sense is to say God exists is true.
Not necessarily, for the conditional is God exists therefore none of the sentences in this pair is true, correct? Therefore, if I institute a contrapositive: The sentences in this pair are true if God doesn't exist, it turns out to be a paradox. How can God exist, but not at the same time while supposed truth contradict? The logic seems flawed, as it must satisfy transitive, contrapositive, and bi-conditional forms to pass as logic.

Ketam 22-Jan-2003 00:39

Quote:

(Originally posted by AznBlade)

Not necessarily, for the conditional is God exists therefore none of the sentences in this pair is true, correct? Therefore, if I institute a contrapositive: The sentences in this pair are true if God doesn't exist, it turns out to be a paradox. How can God exist, but not at the same time while supposed truth contradict? The logic seems flawed, as it must satisfy transitive, contrapositive, and bi-conditional forms to pass as logic.
whoah, pls explain some of those words please... *gets out my dictionary but it's just a pocket version*

AznBlade 22-Jan-2003 00:48

Quote:

(Originally posted by Ketam)

whoah, pls explain some of those words please... *gets out my dictionary but it's just a pocket version*
Haven't you gone through simple geometry and logic reasoning?

Conditional- If A, then B
Contrapositive- If not B, then not A
Bi-conditional- If A, then MUST B

There's 2 more, but I forgot the correct example... yet, a statement of logic must be able to fit into all of those to be considered true.

Rabbousamai 22-Jan-2003 03:43

I think ill just say that the big problem is that that paradox can be used to 'prove' anything...you can shove anything into the first sentence.

Rabbousamai 22-Jan-2003 03:46

Here's another nice one...
--------------
It is a conceptual truth (or, so to speak, true by definition) that God is a being than which none greater can be imagined (i.e., the greatest possible being that can be imagined).


1) God exists as an idea in the mind.

2) A being that exists as an idea in the mind and in reality is greater than a being that exists only as an idea in the mind.

3) Thus, if God exists only as an idea in the mind, then we can imagine something that is greater than God (i.e., a greatest possible being that does exist).

4)But we cannot imagine something that is greater than God (for it is a contradiction to suppose that we can imagine a being greater than the greatest possible being that can be imagined.)

Therefore, God exists.
----------------
Its not without its problems either...

AznBlade 22-Jan-2003 04:36

Hmmm... that odly makes sense.

Rabbousamai 22-Jan-2003 06:12

yeah i know...its one of the nifty arguments out there. Of course, the easiest place to attack it is the assumption that something that actually exists is better than something that conceptually exists i.e. that existance does not add to the greatness of a thing. For example, existance is not a property like bigness, redness etc, but is a precondition for these properties to apply, hence does not add to the greatness tally.

Also, its worth arguing that it is logically impossible for a being to simultaneously instantiate omniscience and omnipotence. Omnipotence entails the power to create free beings, but omniscience rules out the possibility that such beings exist. Thus, a being that is omniscient lacks the ability to create free beings and is hence not omnipotent. Conversely, a being that is omnipotent has the power to create free beings and hence does not know what such beings would do if they existed. Thus, the argument concludes that omniscience and omnipotence are logically incompatible.

ABeaver 22-Jan-2003 06:23

Quote:

(Originally posted by Dilbert)

lolz, probably will post something about a dome or how the revelation is false or other useless things.

anywho, i personally dont like atheists, not because they dont believe in my God, but because they seem pretty closed-minded. i dont mind if u r an agnostic, but atheists usually get on religious people's nerves with pointless remarks.
Personally, I think your pretty close-minded. Atheism is a religion just like any other, and basically what you are saying is their religion should not exist. Im not athiest, I believe in God, but think about what your saying. Just because a person dosn't believe in God, dosn't mean the are close minded.

Rabbousamai 22-Jan-2003 14:42

I think you will find that, on closer questioning, most people who claim to be athiests are actually agnostics. From what i undestand, Athiesm is believing that, not only does god not exist, but there is evidence to suggest that he does not. The main solid argument for this is the problem of evil, or, if you don't like that, the problem of suffering, which is more or less the same. Of course, this only addresses the issue of the All Powerful, All Knowing, All Good god. Agnostic i think is just something along the lines of "I dont believe in god(s) because there isnt evidance to suggest they exist", which i think you will find is the more common belief.

Arguing against the existance of the Godly God (my short way of saying that god i described above) is pretty easy, but arguing against the existance of a not-completely-powerful god is quite difficult.

ton4052 22-Jan-2003 16:11

ok....i decided to stop reading some cuz i am in class...hehe

anyways...if face with the Jesus Christ...you face 3 judgment...
you either believe he is...

1) Lord
2) Liar
3) Luntic

Lord becasue he is God
Liar because everything he said is false and he is the greatest liar in history
Luntic because he is crazy and everything thing he said was crazy

THE 3 L's...what do you think?

now back to ma point...
how does a newborn baby know water exist on earth even though he never saw water? simple...the desire call thrist...
how does a human being know that God exist? simple...there has been a longing (desire) in everybody to rely on a "higher being"...or God.
why do you swear "oh My God!" or blame Christ for things that happen. because like children to our earthly parents...we need someone to rely on count on...God create us being to rely on one thing...God. you may claim one don't need anybody, but are you really sure?

AznBlade 22-Jan-2003 21:03

Quote:

(Originally posted by ton4052)
a "higher being"...or God.
why do you swear "oh My God!" or blame Christ for things that happen. because like children to our earthly parents...we need someone to rely on count on...God create us being to rely on one thing...God. you may claim one don't need anybody, but are you really sure?
It's called slang. All cultures have it. Those phrases just became part of english slang because of the number of Christians. I doubt that's in say... Cantonese.

escher2003 22-Jan-2003 23:42

yeah, i agree with azn, i'm Pagan and i don't consider Christ a savior in any way, but i still yell 'jesus' when i trip and fall on my ass.

Shadowdaggerz 23-Jan-2003 02:57

Quote:

Posted by Rabbousamai:
I think you will find that, on closer questioning, most people who claim to be athiests are actually agnostics. From what i undestand, Athiesm is believing that, not only does god not exist, but there is evidence to suggest that he does not. The main solid argument for this is the problem of evil, or, if you don't like that, the problem of suffering, which is more or less the same. Of course, this only addresses the issue of the All Powerful, All Knowing, All Good god. Agnostic i think is just something along the lines of "I dont believe in god(s) because there isnt evidance to suggest they exist", which i think you will find is the more common belief.
Just for the sake of debate I'll provide the technical (official) definition. :)

Quote:

The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition:

ag·nos·tic
n.

1. One who believes that it is impossible to know whether there is a God.
2. One who is skeptical about the existence of God but does not profess true atheism.
Quote:

The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition:

a·the·ism
n.

1. Disbelief in or denial of the existence of God or gods.
2. The doctrine that there is no God or gods.
Last time I do that! All those little symbols in the pronunciation key are a seperate image... lots of trouble putting them in lol.

PS: Bah, they weren't working properly so I just took out the pronunciation key altogether :lol

gotred 23-Jan-2003 05:05

god doesnt exist. he was created to try and describe certain aspects of life that people did not understand almost 2000 years ago. now we understand most of them. god has run out of uses. it is pointless to believe in him or her or however your view it.

Rabbousamai 23-Jan-2003 05:11

Quote:

why do you swear "oh My God!" or blame Christ for things that happen.
Heheh...i wonder who we're calling out to when we say something like "Argh F*ck"

gotred 23-Jan-2003 05:16

Like 20 days ago or so, I had to go to work with my dad (he rents equipment for movies and commercials and things llike that, and his workers were in vacation already). When we were heading back to home (it was 11pM, after 21 hours of working) we got a flat tire. The next day was the day of the Virgen de Guadalupe, she is the religious symbol of us mexicans, and while we were changing the tire I saw hundreds of people passing, they all came from their little towns far away, they walked all day and night just to go to the church and thank God for everything they have (most of them were really poor people).

God is what makes this people go on, continue with their lives and fight, God gives them hope, hope that someday theyll have what they want and theyll be happy, because of that idea they continue fighting.

That idea they have of God is as real or even more real than any of us, and if God gives all this people hope, then I dont see whats bad about God.
posted by ironmaiden


first of all god did not make them do that. their belief in something that does not exist made them do that.

ZeroGenesis 23-Jan-2003 15:30

Quote:

(Originally posted by gotred)
first of all god did not make them do that. their belief in something that does not exist made them do that.

gotred, you seem to have missed the point of this discussion. This is about "Do you believe in God?" rather than "LETS ALL ATTACK OTHER PEOPLES' VIEWS ON GOD!!!". But since that seems to be what you want... imho, Ironmaiden was probably given the temporary inconvenience of a flat tyre by God so that could see the faith of those people... You obviously have no comprehension of what God is like. The longing to go to Church for some people is enough that they will go to great lengths to get there. You don't have to believe in God, but you should respect that other people do and not tell them that they are stupid, whether you feel other people are doing it to you or not.

cid12 23-Jan-2003 18:39

Quote:

(Originally posted by ZeroGenesis)

gotred, you seem to have missed the point of this discussion. This is about "Do you believe in God?" rather than "LETS ALL ATTACK OTHER PEOPLES' VIEWS ON GOD!!!". But since that seems to be what you want... imho, Ironmaiden was probably given the temporary inconvenience of a flat tyre by God so that could see the faith of those people... You obviously have no comprehension of what God is like. The longing to go to Church for some people is enough that they will go to great lengths to get there. You don't have to believe in God, but you should respect that other people do and not tell them that they are stupid, whether you feel other people are doing it to you or not.
Someone made a claim and he pointed out a flaw in the reasoning, it is awfully tempting to try debate without someone presenting other arguments, but some people don't consider that a debate (crazy people).

It seems to me that it is you that are not respecting other opinion, and I must agree, what people do for god is not because the existence of god, it is because they believe it exists. Like people to afraid of going to a cave because there is monster there, it is not the questionable existence of a monster there, but the beliefe in it that makes people act like that.

AznBlade 23-Jan-2003 21:06

Quote:

(Originally posted by gotred)

god doesnt exist. he was created to try and describe certain aspects of life that people did not understand almost 2000 years ago. now we understand most of them. god has run out of uses. it is pointless to believe in him or her or however your view it.
Why don't you stop ranting like an ignorant and scared fool and provide proof for your claims? In all of these threads you've been claiming crap against religion. Well, why don't you get some dignity and at least try to back them up.

PunkInDrublic 24-Jan-2003 03:52

Quote:

(Originally posted by gotred)

god doesnt exist. he was created to try and describe certain aspects of life that people did not understand almost 2000 years ago. now we understand most of them. god has run out of uses. it is pointless to believe in him or her or however your view it.
God was not 'created' 2000 years ago. Jesus lived 2000 years ago. People believed in God long before Jesus came.

Rabbousamai 24-Jan-2003 03:52

The explanation is not without its merits though. God(s) or higher beings are generally used to explain scientifically unexplained things, hence just about every culture had their gods at some stage or other, eg the Aboriginals had their minor dieties, Mayans had Quetzl and all the rest, there was Thor, Ra etc.

Maelstraum 24-Jan-2003 18:24

Yes I believe in God. Do I care if you also share that belief? No not really.

Shadowdaggerz 24-Jan-2003 20:58

Quote:

(Originally posted by Brizahd)

Yes I believe in God. Do I care if you also share that belief? No not really.
Your missing the point of debate :). Blind faith may be admirable, but it serves no place in a discussion.
It's as if a group of doctors was discussing the merits of a new medical drug, and someone rushed into the meeting and screamed out, "I DON'T BELIEVE IN DRUGS!!!!" then calmly walked out. The guy screaming that out really doesn't have much to add to the discussion, does he ? :)

gotred 25-Jan-2003 01:31

first punkindrublic. the christian religion was created a little less then 2000 years ago. people did not worship god or christ or the virgin mary before ne of them supposidley existed. so you are wrong. people were not worshipping the christian god untill 2000 years ago. if u were speaking of another god im sorry please explain it.

i feel i do not have to back up my believes about god. people who beleive in god just say he exists and thats good enough for them. i say he doesnt and thats good enough for me.

gotred 25-Jan-2003 01:33

as for aznblade im surprised u read all my posts. but as i said in the above post i dont feel the need to explain my beliefs to neone. how can i back up my believes when it is impossible. u cannot back up yours either. please think before u post.

AznBlade 25-Jan-2003 01:46

Quote:

(Originally posted by gotred)
i feel i do not have to back up my believes about god. people who beleive in god just say he exists and thats good enough for them. i say he doesnt and thats good enough for me.

as for aznblade im surprised u read all my posts. but as i said in the above post i dont feel the need to explain my beliefs to neone. how can i back up my believes when it is impossible. u cannot back up yours either. please think before u post.
Actually, I have backed up my beliefs. Read one of my thousand+ posts in this forum, and you'll see that I do. That's what many people have done in this thread. How about actually trying to read some?

Mad Morgan 25-Jan-2003 02:53

How can people belive in a religion that constantly change it self? Just look at something like female priests. 50 years ago, it just was impossible in most forms of christianity. Nowadays, its not that uncommon. Sure, there are still those who oppose it, but most have changed it beliefs to be more "modern", in more than one way. That is the only example I can think if right now, but Im sure there are more.

Superboy HaLL 25-Jan-2003 06:10

Well venturing out of AD I found this interesting and I love to share my opinions so here goes..

My answer is yes AND no.

First, yes I believe in God to the degree that people have made the figure up in their lives as a symbol of hope and something to turn to for everything in order to inspire them to go on with life or perform at a certain level. But as far as that goes I believe he is just a fictional character.

As for if I believe he is real and a higher being, no. Reason for that is I am friends with both religious people that quote the bible etc... as well as plenty of athiests [people that dont believe god exist] and I see that the same fortunes and misfortunes befall both groups. I dont believe there is somebody out there that can change your life and decide your fate but yourself. When I do things I dont thank "god" for giving me the strength because unless he materializes before you and helps you along, you do it on your own.

But in the end, ill just say no I dont believe in him.

gqntexas 25-Jan-2003 07:30

Quote:

(Originally posted by PhoenixBD)

God told the people to not worship idols of him. Now don't get me wrong or anything but isn't praying to a crucifix idol worshipping?

They also act like a statue or the bible is holy. Like Oh you just dropped a bible!! It is just a book for gods sake. At the church they have kneelers in front of Jesus or Mary to pray to. Idol worship?

Priests act like they are holy or something. God didn't ask you to be a priest did he? He didn't give you special powers. Really no one gave them the right to be holy. Just other men. And the whole telling your sins to a priest. Why do you need to tell a priest your sins? He isn't God. If you want to tell your sins pray or whatever.

I think it is just all a big scam so they can act like they have authority or something. Sitting under the vatican are millions of dollars in gold and art so why don't you sell that for the poor? A priest shouldn't have possesions. They are in service to the poor.

Collecting money in church. Now Jesus himself, the leading figure of Christianity, went to the temple, and flipped all the collecting tables because church isn't supposed to be about money.

If there is a God, I think man corrupted and altered what his teachings truly were, to benefit man and not spreading the word or whatever. Those are the reasons I don't believe in any organized religion.
I am a very strong believer in the Word of God, the Holy Bible. I read it nearly everyday. Praying to a crucifix or a statue of Mary or Jesus or anyone else is idol worship. A true Christian, a believer, who is seeking to be like Christ just prays straight to Jesus Christ. I don't have a problem with someone dropping a Bible. There is nothing is this book that says anything about dropping a Bible. Personally, I do not like all the tradition and extra junk the Catholic church participates in. Confession is useless. Why would you tell someone your darkest secrets that you don't know? All you have to do is ask God the Father for forgiveness and be sincere and He will forgive, according to the Bible. I agree with your paragraph about having excess in material possessions, like the Vatican. Millions of people all over the world need that money. In reference to Jesus flipping the collection tables, the tables and collectors in that temple were collecting taxes. The tax collectors had turned the temple into a business about money. It had nothing to do with the church. You are correct about man corrupting and altering the teachings of Christ. The Bible has not changed in thousands of years, but the way society looks at the Bible changes almost all the time. I base all my beliefs strictly on what the Bible says, not what I want to believe or anything similar to the way the secular world does.
God exists whether you want to believe it or not; that is truth. If you look into it and want to find it, it will find you. Jesus Christ did not sacrifice himself to make a point, to gain power or respect, or anything other than to give us, despicable sinners, a chance at getting into heaven. He gave his own blood, was buried, and resurrected for everyone.

gqntexas 25-Jan-2003 07:41

Quote:

(Originally posted by DS1 AA)

Well venturing out of AD I found this interesting and I love to share my opinions so here goes..

My answer is yes AND no.

First, yes I believe in God to the degree that people have made the figure up in their lives as a symbol of hope and something to turn to for everything in order to inspire them to go on with life or perform at a certain level. But as far as that goes I believe he is just a fictional character.

As for if I believe he is real and a higher being, no. Reason for that is I am friends with both religious people that quote the bible etc... as well as plenty of athiests [people that dont believe god exist] and I see that the same fortunes and misfortunes befall both groups. I dont believe there is somebody out there that can change your life and decide your fate but yourself. When I do things I dont thank "god" for giving me the strength because unless he materializes before you and helps you along, you do it on your own.

But in the end, ill just say no I dont believe in him.
You're right. Everyone has good days and bad days, but look at the way your friends deal with those things. If your friends are truly believers in Jesus Christ, then they will let the bad days go and be optimistic knowing that better days lie ahead. They know they are here to serve their Lord, not as slaves, but as willing servants. Everyone must do it on their own. God doesn't just one day decide that this person will make it and the other won't; you have to make your own future. Christians will make Christ a part of their lives though, and you should be able to notice something different about them. If someone is living their life for Christ, they will follow the ways of the Lord. Examples: they won't get drunk, won't smoke anything, won't do drugs, won't have premarital sex, etc. If they do mess up and do something their conscience convicts them for, they will ask their Savior for forgiveness and do their best to never do that again.
People say religion is a crutch. It's true. I'm a very strong Christian, and I admit that I need Jesus Christ to live my life successfully. He is my crutch and I stand firm next to Him.

gqntexas 25-Jan-2003 07:47

Quote:

(Originally posted by Mad Morgan)

How can people belive in a religion that constantly change it self? Just look at something like female priests. 50 years ago, it just was impossible in most forms of christianity. Nowadays, its not that uncommon. Sure, there are still those who oppose it, but most have changed it beliefs to be more "modern", in more than one way. That is the only example I can think if right now, but Im sure there are more.
The religion doesn't change, the people change, the culture changes, but the literature remains the same. The Bible has not changed in thousands of years.

Donalbain 25-Jan-2003 08:32

Quote:

(Originally posted by gqntexas)

The religion doesn't change, the people change, the culture changes, but the literature remains the same. The Bible has not changed in thousands of years.
Actually it has. Last time that I checked there were 10 different versions of the bible.

Maybe you meant to say the essense of religion? The concept?

gecko 25-Jan-2003 15:21

Quote:

(Originally posted by Donalbain)

Actually it has. Last time that I checked there were 10 different versions of the bible.

Maybe you meant to say the essense of religion? The concept?
there is only one true greek bible and the rest is being translated and it seems to be different, being differently expressed, but the logic and the essence is still there...

gecko 25-Jan-2003 15:35

Quote:

(Originally posted by gqntexas)

I am a very strong believer in the Word of God, the Holy Bible. I read it nearly everyday. Praying to a crucifix or a statue of Mary or Jesus or anyone else is idol worship. A true Christian, a believer, who is seeking to be like Christ just prays straight to Jesus Christ. I don't have a problem with someone dropping a Bible. There is nothing is this book that says anything about dropping a Bible. Personally, I do not like all the tradition and extra junk the Catholic church participates in. Confession is useless. Why would you tell someone your darkest secrets that you don't know? All you have to do is ask God the Father for forgiveness and be sincere and He will forgive, according to the Bible. I agree with your paragraph about having excess in material possessions, like the Vatican. Millions of people all over the world need that money. In reference to Jesus flipping the collection tables, the tables and collectors in that temple were collecting taxes. The tax collectors had turned the temple into a business about money. It had nothing to do with the church. You are correct about man corrupting and altering the teachings of Christ. The Bible has not changed in thousands of years, but the way society looks at the Bible changes almost all the time. I base all my beliefs strictly on what the Bible says, not what I want to believe or anything similar to the way the secular world does.
God exists whether you want to believe it or not; that is truth. If you look into it and want to find it, it will find you. Jesus Christ did not sacrifice himself to make a point, to gain power or respect, or anything other than to give us, despicable sinners, a chance at getting into heaven. He gave his own blood, was buried, and resurrected for everyone.
Glad that there is a person like me here to answer so many questions which was so difficult to answer.... i totally agree with you...... actually, Christianality is not a religon but a relationship with God the stronger your relationship with God, the more you would follow his teachings and be a righteous person in his eyes....

actually, i really understand why some people don't believe in God.......it is because you have not search for God and he has not shown his grace to you.... but believe me... once you have faith as big as a mustard seed, he will show you what he has for you and you will know that there is a God..... i was not a Christian when i was born, even my parents are not Christian..... but now, just because i believed, you will not be able to imagine the help he has given me and the love that he has showered on me....

so i would say that a true Christian would always be in the arms of God..... and he is so real that i want to sing....

so close i believe, you are holding me now, in your hands i belong, you will never let me go...... :)

Warlyik 25-Jan-2003 16:30

Quote:

God exists whether you want to believe it or not; that is truth. If you look into it and want to find it, it will find you. Jesus Christ did not sacrifice himself to make a point, to gain power or respect, or anything other than to give us, despicable sinners, a chance at getting into heaven. He gave his own blood, was buried, and resurrected for everyone.
Show me where this 'God' exists. Show me where you have found him. Show me some tangible evidence that he exists. And no, The Bible is not tangible evidence. It is merely literature until proven elsewise. Christians are capable of seemingly two things: Circular Logic, and Blind Faith. Neither has any place in a forum where truth reigns supreme. We don't need other people being goody-goody and quoting some jack from the Bible. For those that are still deciding their path, you're giving them false information and swaying their opinions towards the Bible just because it sounds nice. In reality, it is one of the most gruesome, discriminatory, long pieces of literature that we know of. Of course it has morals, but it seems as though most people lack the ability to accept those morals. Instead, they have to do something stupid and believe everything in the Bible was meant to be literal. And if it's metaphor, then it isn't truth.

God may exist in your mind, but he does not exist in any form that can be proven. You belong in an insane asylum just for speaking out like that. You truly are another blind faith Christian that thinks he's right and everyone else is wrong because the Bible says so. The Bible is not truth, God existing is not Truth, the stuff you spew is likely not truth. Get the picture?

And gecko, I'm not even going to deal with you anymore, atleast not in this thread. I've already explained enough in the other thread called 'they're just scared of the bible', and there you will find your ignorant remarks which I have displayed for you. Your logic is flawed, go back to school. Unfortunately, this is the weekend.. Too bad most schools don't have school-days on Saturday.

AznBlade 25-Jan-2003 17:31

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there is only one true greek bible and the rest is being translated and it seems to be different, being differently expressed, but the logic and the essence is still there...
Wow, your ignorance of your own religion ASTOUNDS ME!

a) The bible is a COLLECTION of books written over time
b) There are no original texts of the bible
c) The Greek versions are still possibly flawed because of retranslations and revision from Heberew and Aramaic
d) The oldest religious text is the Dead Sea Scroll

So, get your facts straight...
-=-==--=-=-=-=-=-==-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
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How can people belive in a religion that constantly change it self? Just look at something like female priests. 50 years ago, it just was impossible in most forms of christianity. Nowadays, its not that uncommon. Sure, there are still those who oppose it, but most have changed it beliefs to be more "modern", in more than one way. That is the only example I can think if right now, but Im sure there are more.
There are female preists? I've never seen one...

Anyways, any good change is a welcome one. I for one would like to see more equality with women in the general religion and for someone to throw that tradition out and stomp on the retard vatican and their "infallible" pope who can't even stand up on his own.

gqntexas 26-Jan-2003 20:55

Quote:

(Originally posted by Warlyik)

Show me where this 'God' exists. Show me where you have found him. Show me some tangible evidence that he exists. And no, The Bible is not tangible evidence. It is merely literature until proven elsewise. Christians are capable of seemingly two things: Circular Logic, and Blind Faith. Neither has any place in a forum where truth reigns supreme. We don't need other people being goody-goody and quoting some jack from the Bible. For those that are still deciding their path, you're giving them false information and swaying their opinions towards the Bible just because it sounds nice. In reality, it is one of the most gruesome, discriminatory, long pieces of literature that we know of. Of course it has morals, but it seems as though most people lack the ability to accept those morals. Instead, they have to do something stupid and believe everything in the Bible was meant to be literal. And if it's metaphor, then it isn't truth.

God may exist in your mind, but he does not exist in any form that can be proven. You belong in an insane asylum just for speaking out like that. You truly are another blind faith Christian that thinks he's right and everyone else is wrong because the Bible says so. The Bible is not truth, God existing is not Truth, the stuff you spew is likely not truth. Get the picture?
You have already made up your mind about what you believe. There is nothing I can say or do to open your eyes. I'm not forcing anything on you or anybody else either. I just pray that you read what I have to say with an open mind. I can't show you that God exists; He's not something that we can see. I'm not here to scare you into believing or anything like that. I just want to let you know that I'm not giving false information. I stand by every word that I've written, and I will not falter. I believe all that I have written with everything that I am, and Christ has become a daily part of my life.

People don't lack the ability to accept the morals in the Bible, they lack the willingness to submit. They don't see why a relationship with their Creator is necessary. If they change and seek Him, He'll find them, but it's their choice. God will prove Himself to you only if you want to see, only if you want to know Him. I do not have a blind faith. I know without any doubt that my Savior exists. You are right about me knowing that all other religions not based on a personal relationship with Jesus Christ are false. I do believe that. It's not like I'm going to murder people because they don't believe the same thing as me. I will pray for them and hopefully have a chance to talk with them, but I won't force anything on them.

I understand everything you wrote, and it all makes sense. I'm sure this thread makes you mad, because you think we're wasting our time. I'm not wasting anything. To express my opinion and give you another perspective, this is worth it for me.

Warlyik 26-Jan-2003 21:11

Quote:

People don't lack the ability to accept the morals in the Bible, they lack the willingness to submit. They don't see why a relationship with their Creator is necessary. If they change and seek Him, He'll find them, but it's their choice. God will prove Himself to you only if you want to see, only if you want to know Him. I do not have a blind faith. I know without any doubt that my Savior exists. You are right about me knowing that all other religions not based on a personal relationship with Jesus Christ are false. I do believe that. It's not like I'm going to murder people because they don't believe the same thing as me. I will pray for them and hopefully have a chance to talk with them, but I won't force anything on them.
Who says he exists? You? You still haven't done anything except prove to me what Circular Logic really is and what being Blind is. You are exactly what I described, without a doubt. You claim "God" exists without any evidence supporting it, you claim anyone who doesn't believe the same way as you as being "Wrong". Well, that's great for you, but you're still lacking the ability to open your eyes for once. Have you even considered the possibility of "God" not existing? If you haven't, I suggest you do, because you may *THINK* he exists, but there are so many more things that explain to the contrary.

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I understand everything you wrote, and it all makes sense. I'm sure this thread makes you mad, because you think we're wasting our time. I'm not wasting anything. To express my opinion and give you another perspective, this is worth it for me.
Since when did you get the feeling I was mad? I don't really care about you, but there are some things you must come to a realization about. You're probably afraid to admit that you've wasted so much time believing in some God that loves you and cares for you, but I guess that's just you. And another perspective? PLEASE! I've heard this thousands of times.. Ok, that was slightly exaggerated, but really, I've heard this same argument over and over.. And there's absolutely no logic to support it. Until you BECOME logical I will continue to ignore this incessant ranting about something you cannot prove.

ton4052 27-Jan-2003 03:38

azznblade...u should read your bible and/or a book called "A Case for Christ" (this book is about the books of the Bible and how it came to be)...besides....women presithood is theology stuff...don't wanna get into in the forum cuz i gotta stick with the topic...hehe

anyways...the fact that i can't begin you physical fact about Christ (except the Bible). I can't show you Him phyically. But i believe He exist. so why would i believe in a God that i can't see...faith.

i am not here to change you. i am only here to tell u what i believe in. you may claim that i m blind and stupid. but your judgement is this...if you are comfronted with your judgement when face with God:

1) Lord...He is God
2) Liar...greatest liar in the world...
3) Luntic...crazy, very crazy...

this is what i am thinking now: (very much debatable)
how do you know atoms existed...from your textbook? (YES!!!)
but until you look in an electron mircoscope...you don't know atoms exist...
how do you know God existed...from the Bible? (YES!!!)
but until you look for God...you don't know God exist...

mting 27-Jan-2003 06:09

sure i believe in god

gecko 27-Jan-2003 14:40

Quote:

(Originally posted by ton4052)

azznblade...u should read your bible and/or a book called "A Case for Christ" (this book is about the books of the Bible and how it came to be)...besides....women presithood is theology stuff...don't wanna get into in the forum cuz i gotta stick with the topic...hehe

anyways...the fact that i can't begin you physical fact about Christ (except the Bible). I can't show you Him phyically. But i believe He exist. so why would i believe in a God that i can't see...faith.

i am not here to change you. i am only here to tell u what i believe in. you may claim that i m blind and stupid. but your judgement is this...if you are comfronted with your judgement when face with God:

1) Lord...He is God
2) Liar...greatest liar in the world...
3) Luntic...crazy, very crazy...

this is what i am thinking now: (very much debatable)
how do you know atoms existed...from your textbook? (YES!!!)
but until you look in an electron mircoscope...you don't know atoms exist...
how do you know God existed...from the Bible? (YES!!!)
but until you look for God...you don't know God exist...
yup, this is what i am trying to say... ;P

AznBlade 28-Jan-2003 00:47

You people are REALLY pissing me off. Can you read? I'm Christian! I believe in God and Jesus! Just because I'm open to different interpretations and other things and am not closedminded, doesn't mean I don't believe. So, get it through your thick skulls!

Quote:

(Originally posted by ton4052)
azznblade...u should read your bible and/or a book called "A Case for Christ" (this book is about the books of the Bible and how it came to be)...besides....women presithood is theology stuff...don't wanna get into in the forum cuz i gotta stick with the topic...hehe
a) I've read the bible. I've been in Christian schooling for 9 years.
b) I hear the bible every week as I go to church
c) I already believe in Jesus and God
d) I was raised as Catholic, so I've never seen a Christian woman as a preist
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anyways...the fact that i can't begin you physical fact about Christ (except the Bible). I can't show you Him phyically. But i believe He exist. so why would i believe in a God that i can't see...faith.
This pretains to me... how?
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i am not here to change you. i am only here to tell u what i believe in. you may claim that i m blind and stupid. but your judgement is this...if you are comfronted with your judgement when face with God:

1) Lord...He is God
2) Liar...greatest liar in the world...
3) Luntic...crazy, very crazy...
I believe in God. Change me how?
Quote:

this is what i am thinking now: (very much debatable)
how do you know atoms existed...from your textbook? (YES!!!)
but until you look in an electron mircoscope...you don't know atoms exist...
how do you know God existed...from the Bible? (YES!!!)
but until you look for God...you don't know God exist...
I know atoms exist because I've seen them through high power mircoscopic photos. The bible is debatable. It's not solid proof because:
a) There are errors in retranslations
b) There have been revisions
c) It's covered with allegory and metaphor
d) There's no sure way to tell if it's literal. How do you know it isn't historical fiction?

Just because I'm open to the fact God might not exist doesn't mean I don't believe. Just because I don't take every word of the bible literaly doesn't mean I don't believe.

ton4052 28-Jan-2003 01:04

sorry aznblade...but ma thinking is this...the Bible is correct...period.
if there is something wrong...why do you want to believe in it? that is my point...
and beside the stuff i said after doesn't pertain to u...sorry wut i meant was i can't *proof* God phyically....sooooo sorry....

the stuff i say was meant for non-Christians...
because they are face with the judgement of either Lord, Liar, or Luntic...

besides the Bible can't b fiction or else we are believing in something that is not true...
fiction means not true...

If you are open to the fact that God doesn't exist...then i dunno if u are really a Christian. as Christians we are suppose to stand for what we believe in...even if it means life and death.

Jesus talks a lot that is non-literal...it is seens through-out that Bible. but most of the stuff he is talking about is not phyically but spiritally. the Bible has not gone through any revisions...but translations. yes there might be errors in translation...that is why it is good to look in the the Bible in Hebrew or Greek or Roman...that is why i still see bibles in Hebrew, Roman, and Greek.
anyway...in Japanese...you can't say "He is in love"...u can only translate it to..."He looks like he is not love"...there is one of the reasons why. in chinese most of the words like Paul...sounds like Paul...but i accidently said it once and i said "pineapple"...hehe
in chinese...pineapple and Paul sounds the same...hehe

that is why we need the Holy Spirit to guide us...why did Jesus send the Holy Spirit. to guide us when we are reading His Word.

one kool fact...why was Jesus name the Word?...one lil girl said "Because He is all God wants to tell us"...that is so amazing...even children understands...God uses everybody...not just the wise to speak...he even use lil children...that is just soooo amazing

AznBlade 28-Jan-2003 01:16

Quote:

(Originally posted by ton4052)
sorry aznblade...but ma thinking is this...the Bible is correct...period.
if there is something wrong...why do you want to believe in it? that is my point...
Ok, which version, publication, reivsion, translation, and type of bible is true? There are many different versions. I take the bible as metaphorically and allegorically. Yet, I believe in God through my own series of logics and reasoning. I always leave room for me being wrong because there is no proof.
Quote:

besides the Bible can't b fiction or else we are believing in something that is not true...
fiction means not true...
So, your belief makes it true. But, it being true, makes your belief true, which makes it true? That's circular reasoning and holds no validity.
Quote:

If you are open to the fact that God doesn't exist...then i dunno if u are really a Christian. as Christians we are suppose to stand for what we believe in...even if it means life and death.
No, a Christian is one who believes in Jesus and God. There are many types of Chrsitians. I believe God may not exist for I have no direct proof of God's existance. I refure to have blind faith just because someone told me to.
Quote:

Jesus talks a lot that is non-literal...it is seens through-out that Bible. but most of the stuff he is talking about is not phyically but spiritally. the Bible has not gone through any revisions...but translations. yes there might be errors in translation...that is why it is good to look in the the Bible in Hebrew or Greek or Roman...that is why i still see bibles in Hebrew, Roman, and Greek.
anyway...in Japanese...you can't say "He is in love"...u can only translate it to..."He looks like he is not love"...there is one of the reasons why. in chinese most of the words like Paul...sounds like Paul...but i accidently said it once and i said "pineapple"...hehe
in chinese...pineapple and Paul sounds the same...hehe
a) Revisions- Revisions are always added. Look at the footnotes of some bibles, and they will say "corrected text", or "revised to...". What do you think the King James version is?
b) There is no original text from any book of the bible, so how do you know it's 100% accurate?
c) Errors in translations happen in symantics regarding connotation to denotation and in synnonyms for certain words.
[qUPTE]
that is why we need the Holy Spirit to guide us...why did Jesus send the Holy Spirit. to guide us when we are reading His Word.

one kool fact...why was Jesus name the Word?...one lil girl said "Because He is all God wants to tell us"...that is so amazing...even children understands...God uses everybody...not just the wise to speak...he even use lil children...that is just soooo amazing [/quote]
No, in reality it's what you think is amazing. You interpret her as sharing the same beliefs as you regarding your own understanding. I can interpret her as saying God means that Jesus spoke figuratively to inspire others and for us to lead good lives. There is no true understanding of God for humans. Humans are limited to certain logics and understandings. We are limited to certain wisdoms and knowledge. Comprehension will come when we die. Then, all will be revealed.

Freez3L 28-Jan-2003 07:27

I'm atheist. That is my personal belief. I always wonder "where did god come from? what did god do before all this?" and that's been a brick wall between me and religion. I'm not against people practicing it, just stay off my doorstep and don't try to convert people. Conversion is WRONG. Let people come to their own decisions without you hunting them down in the street and telling them they'll burn in hell if they don't believe, and then once they DO choose to "believe" they'll probably burn anyway because they aren't penitent enough. I don't know about you, but I wouldn't want to live a life filled with fear and penitence. I'm not sorry for crap I didn't do, but apparently I'm supposed to be sorry for stuff as soon as I'm born. And then I'm supposed to call this life of fear and penitence "true power?" These are my opinion and belief. Feel free to ram it down your own throat, I'm not doing it for you. It's MY stance and you can't have it unless you make it for yourself

HunterG 28-Jan-2003 08:01

Alright, I just thought I would say something, but I am only going to say it once in this thread and not in any other thread because these religion threads are becoming redundent. I mean seriously its the same things over and over again. Someone makes the thread, a couple of guys come on and say that they believe and stuff, and others come on and say they don't believe, then you get the people that say its all crap, then a whole bunch of useless banter and bible bashing starts leading to the same thing over again. The atheists on one side, the christians on the other... and I haven't seen much of the other religions in this thread(I guess they take the smart way and keep out of the fight)



First, if you don't believe in God, fine. No one is going to change your opinion unless God actually came down and smacked you. If you do believe in God, fine. There really is no reason to go on arguing about it because there are better things to do.

Second, just to answer one question that keeps coming up. With the crusades, the violence etc, that have been done in the name of Christianity and God.... That was done by men, who are actually doing things that the bible says shouldn't be done. That isn't God doing this stuff, it is people. And trust me, Those that do evil in the name of God end up in a really bad place.

Alright I already tire of writing all this. Now I am out of here.

Freez3L 28-Jan-2003 08:19

I don't trust people who speak in riddles.

cid12 28-Jan-2003 19:31

Quote:

(Originally posted by HunterG)

Alright, I just thought I would say something, but I am only going to say it once in this thread and not in any other thread because these religion threads are becoming redundent. I mean seriously its the same things over and over again. Someone makes the thread, a couple of guys come on and say that they believe and stuff, and others come on and say they don't believe, then you get the people that say its all crap, then a whole bunch of useless banter and bible bashing starts leading to the same thing over again. The atheists on one side, the christians on the other... and I haven't seen much of the other religions in this thread(I guess they take the smart way and keep out of the fight)



First, if you don't believe in God, fine. No one is going to change your opinion unless God actually came down and smacked you. If you do believe in God, fine. There really is no reason to go on arguing about it because there are better things to do.

Second, just to answer one question that keeps coming up. With the crusades, the violence etc, that have been done in the name of Christianity and God.... That was done by men, who are actually doing things that the bible says shouldn't be done. That isn't God doing this stuff, it is people. And trust me, Those that do evil in the name of God end up in a really bad place.

Alright I already tire of writing all this. Now I am out of here.
They don't usually end up bad, most of them are politicians and either end up with a fat pension or in jail for enbaselment.

I jus remembered something funny:

There was guy, a self-assumed proud atheist, that was on vacation on Lock Ness. Sudenly the Lock Ness monster jumps out of the water and starts chasing him, he runs but gets cornered. And says:
-Help! Help! For the sake of God someone help me!
Having said this everything sudenly stops, the sky opens, a bright light descends next to him and he hears a voice:
-Just until now you've been a proud atheist, but when in danger you ask for help in my name?
To wich the atheist replies:
-Common, give me a breake, just until 5 minutes ago I didn't believe in the Lock Ness monster.

I personally have more faith in the possible existence of a Lock Ness monster then in God. Prove me unquestionably there is a Lock Ness monster, and then we may work on the God thing. :lol

Donalbain 28-Jan-2003 20:53

Quote:

(Originally posted by HunterG)

Alright, I just thought I would say something, but I am only going to say it once in this thread and not in any other thread because these religion threads are becoming redundent. I mean seriously its the same things over and over again. Someone makes the thread, a couple of guys come on and say that they believe and stuff, and others come on and say they don't believe, then you get the people that say its all crap, then a whole bunch of useless banter and bible bashing starts leading to the same thing over again. The atheists on one side, the christians on the other... and I haven't seen much of the other religions in this thread(I guess they take the smart way and keep out of the fight)



First, if you don't believe in God, fine. No one is going to change your opinion unless God actually came down and smacked you. If you do believe in God, fine. There really is no reason to go on arguing about it because there are better things to do.

Second, just to answer one question that keeps coming up. With the crusades, the violence etc, that have been done in the name of Christianity and God.... That was done by men, who are actually doing things that the bible says shouldn't be done. That isn't God doing this stuff, it is people. And trust me, Those that do evil in the name of God end up in a really bad place.

Alright I already tire of writing all this. Now I am out of here.
I agree with the religion thread issue.



Ok, here it is. I am going to make it really simple, because it is a simple concept. No one can "prove" that God does exist. No one can "prove" that he does not exist. You either believe or you do not believe. Simple as that. Don't complicate the concept of a higher being.

I for one do believe that I have a Father in Heaven. Those are my beliefs, there is not way that you are going to prove me otherwise, because you will not be able to come up with any proof.

Svensken 28-Jan-2003 21:17

My belief is that god is something made up by men, and that he doesn't exist. When you die, you don't go to heaven or hell. Your mind just disappears into nothing at all, your memories vanish forever just like your body. This is like the sadest thing on earth, but that's what I believe. And the Buddhism's reincarnation is bullshit too if you ask me. But today's society is based on our religion, even if no one believes in god. Why do you think it is illegal to murder someone? Because the bible says so! Why are gays being picked on all the time and not having the same rights as heterosexual people like us (if you are)? Because the bible says homosexuality is wrong! Even if it would be illegal to murder someone anyway in todays society, it probably wouldn't have been 600 years ago, which means we wouldn't have had an as advanced law system as today. If it hadn't been for christian religion, we in my country Sweden would have believed in pur old norse gods, like thor and odin today. And that religion tells you to go out in war and be a berzerker in combat, because if you are really brave in battle you will come to Valhalla when you die (like christian heaven).
So I don't believe in god, but I think religion is an important part of the society.

AznBlade 29-Jan-2003 00:44

To all general anti-religious, namely Svensken and Freez3L...
a) Before judging a person based on stereotypes, try acutally considering interpretations other than what you "think they might think".
b) All people are different just as all people have different beliefs and interpretations of religion.
c) There are more than one types of a religion. Christianity itself is not one religion. It's a group of sects (Catholicism, Lutheranism, Presbyterianism, etc.). Try and consider that when reffering to one.

Hurleyy 29-Jan-2003 08:41

Yes I have always wondered.. if there is a heaven why is muredering a bad thing? After all, they are assisting the person in getting them to heaven. And why else would we have a survival instinct?

krog711 29-Jan-2003 12:32

i already posted this in a different forum but it still applies here....



in my opinion the bible is a book made by racists sexist guys, it oprresses women and there was no way jesus could be white now that i got that out of the way...

the bible is an ancient book wrote in for the religion of the jue(jew but really spelled jue). not only is the bible a moral lessson but a tool of a worship. to worship what?
along with the graet lessons of the bible comes a strong obligation to worhsip a god. he is all powerful, at times forgiving, and at other times vengefull and vindictive(somehwat hypocritical of the bible's teachings). from what the bible says adan abd eve were created just a little after the dawn of earth. i think on the 5th day? well we have found the origin of man. it is in upper africa and it is mearly thousands of years old which is no close to the "begignig of time". there are also many other discrepincies in the bible to which i do not want to adress because it would tkae longer to write than i have. also there are hundreds of other religions and thousands of ancient religions. every grouping of people known to this world has had some form of relgiion weither from the modern christian religions to the ancient follwings of buddhism who do not actully beleive in a god. what makes you people htink that the bible id correct and that the god it speaks of is the true god. are you that aarogent than you will not approach the same topic but in other civilization's? also most ancient civilizations were polytheistic)beleived in many gods) and all modern relgions are monotheistic(beleiving in one religion) the only religion to date that has some form of polyhteism is hinduism but they beleive in an all supreme being that has many different forms and different peopel worship his different forms but they are stil monotheistsic. and the bible is an ancient document what makes it true why don't we beleieve the epic the illian aor the oddesy written by homer or other ancient documents? is it that u need some sort of prrof to trick oyu mind into beleiving that your religion is right so you have osmthign to fall back on, a crutch. are you people that weak minded that you do not want to think about things and figure them out you just want to have a simple and non eventful life. and that is how religion started there where unexplainbl"miracles" so they had to be the work of a more powerful being. and loang wiht this idea cam the after life and the doctrine of rencarnation. also there are other religions with the equivilent of the bible. and if you beleive so much in the bible then ahy not follow it's word to a tee. or do u want to just beleive in it and do what you want and cause mroe violence and more war and then say that you are a man of god so all the blood on your hands are washed of. i think the basic philosiphy of religion is based on ignorance and stupidity. and the weak minded are the peopel who follow religons. these are the peopel who will never realize there full potential because of an ignorant follwing of there's which they never question and think about. and shouldnd't all authority or nay thing that governs anyone's life be thought about in essence to make it better and in essence tyo make ther lives better? and many peopel in the past have said they had contacts with god and after they claimed this they used people took advantage of them and started wars and violence wich is the opposite of religon. also i think the bible is a greta moral lesson and i actully share alot fo ethics with that book but the worship part of it is flawed. and all modern religions around the world beleive in one god and there religious texts have the same strong moral and ethical code and the only thing that difffers from each relgiion is the type of worship. also the only religion that is true to there morals and ethics are the buddhists. there has never been a war containg any buddhists and never been a war about the religion because it is a peacefull one who beleives in many buddha's which means enlighted one. so what maies you peopel think that the bible is true? are you beleiveng everything people tell you and are you being an obediant dog and not using your power to question these thigns? also if religiogn is sych a graet thing and your god save why is there a holpy war in the middle eats? both of the religions belive in the same god but the muslinms belive in a profit which is said to be god's disciple and oother doesn't and they are fithing for the holy land. if there was a god do u think he would want his kin to fight of a small peice of earth are or are these peopel too ignorant to see that they are wrong and fighitng and causing death is wrong and they have done all this over a peice of land that was mentioned in the bible and ahy hasn't god stopped all this violence. if he is supreme and he is all knowing and an insurmountable force why hasn't he stopped it? why god put humans on earth along with the other animals want them to live there own lives and not be under his influence and wnats us to be independant? does that sound liek a nice forgiving god that the bible preaches about. and all you christans ahy r you so stubborn and ignorant shy can't you accept theat you may be wrong and u may have made an mistake and your religion might not be the right one just ebcause the most poweful nation's population are mostly christans doesn not mean that it is right. why can't you ppl just be tolerent and belive the way u want and think about thigns. what do you guys think?


and agian it was liek 1:00 am when i wrote this so i was lazy and didn't put into paragrapgh form

gecko 29-Jan-2003 12:36

Quote:

(Originally posted by HurleyBD)

Yes I have always wondered.. if there is a heaven why is muredering a bad thing? After all, they are assisting the person in getting them to heaven. And why else would we have a survival instinct?
the person might not have got himself saved and washed by the blood of Christ.... and if you kill him, he might go to hell.....

or if you murder a Christian, he will not be able to do the work of God and he may be on the verge of saving someone in the name of Christ and you caused the person not to get saved......

Actually, i wanted to die a long time ago as there is no goal for me in life.... all the goals are transistent and is gone when you achieve it except in God......
For me to live is Christ, for me to die is gain.... because i believe that in will go to heaven after i die.. :)

krog711 29-Jan-2003 12:56

hey greko why do u beleive in the christan god? and why are oyu so aarogent to think that your religion is right and eveyone's elses is wrong. there is no proof of this chritan god except an ancient book written by old whit guys who were racist and sexist. would u read and belive the book of a slave owner of the 1800's because you are letting an ancient artifact with no proof govern your life. you could possibly and most lilly be putting your faith into a a story that was ment for children a fairl tlae and a moral lesson because the bible does sound more liek a fictional book than a tool of worship to the all holy and all might christian god. and oculd you please tell me why u think everyone else's relgiion is wrong? coudl u tell me why hinduism,buddhism,juedism,sikhism,muslim,taoism is wrong? and if you don't knwo why everyone of those major religiong is wrong then maybe you shouldn't ocmpletly put your faith into one thing before you observe other religions? plus the muslims and jue's(jew's) belive in the same god except they have different ways to worship and the muslims belive in the profit of god called muhamid and they reconizr other profit's that are mentioned in the bible such as paul so i would become overjoyed to hear why you belive so strongly in your chirstian god and why everyone else is wrong?

Enderwig 29-Jan-2003 17:21

Quote:

(Originally posted by HurleyBD)

Yes I have always wondered.. if there is a heaven why is muredering a bad thing? After all, they are assisting the person in getting them to heaven. And why else would we have a survival instinct?
in fact its a supreme sacrifice on behalf of the muderer if you follow the bible as not only will the muderer be releasing there victim from life on earth and sending them to heaven but the muderer does so knowing full well that they will be eternally damned to hell. So mudering a priest is one of the most selfless things you can do. surely? If not why not?

krog711 29-Jan-2003 22:29

all thorugh history not only has religion been used as a cruthch for the weak because they do not fully comprehend the universe and they want somthing to fall abck on when they die, but as a buisness and exploiting everyhting baout it. priests and other religous teahers used to seel indulegences. an indulgence ment that if you gave money to the church that not only would all your sins be wiped clean but the osuls of your relitives would be released from purgortory. religion is the cruch for the weakminded an "elixer when you are weak" and peoepl just exploit it. and yes i just want to ask all you people out there one question. sinc emost of you seem to belive in the christian religion what makes you think that your god is real and what makes other major religions of the world wrong? why is hinduism, sikhism,buddhism,juedism, muslim, taoism worng? do you vhristians even knwo anything baout these religions and if not why are you so focused on your god and not giving any other religions a chance and if you are religous arn't u suppsoed to have an open mind and how can u actully say you r a christian without knowing about nay other religions. are oyu people that ignorant and stubborn?

Hurleyy 29-Jan-2003 23:54

Thou shalt not kill.

Apperently god doesnt want heaven getting too crowded.

Enderwig 30-Jan-2003 00:17

Quote:

(Originally posted by HurleyBD)

Thou shalt not kill.

Apperently god doesnt want heaven getting too crowded.
its a bit strange then that god breaks his own rules (read the old testement for countless examples) and so do his followers (crusades,witch hunts etc). It seems like a lot of the time its the people who follow religion who need to learn the lessons it teaches not those who dont. Maybe they forget about the morals it teaches and just focus on the worshiping god bit, i dont know though. Maybe wed be better off if we started acting ethically to each other for each other, for humanity, not for some higher being and a promise of eternal bliss. Surely it is better for a person to do good because they wanted to than because that is what they have been taught they should do if they wanted to be allowed through the gates of heaven.

krog711 30-Jan-2003 00:30

i complelty agree the bible is more liek a moral ethical tlae that is ment to teach children and scare them into being good. i think that what the bible is very hypocritical also and i think that people should tkae some of the moral's from the bible because it does have graet morals but drop the worshipping part and then possibly it may become a good book. and i also think that humans are an uncontroleld virus unleashed on this earth all we have ever done is fight and kill and cause violence i think that violence is our basic and primal instict and i think that is horrible and pathetic that a species is founded on the basic principals of hate and violence and that if anything is based on that they will eventually fail unless we as a human race can some how change it.

AznBlade 30-Jan-2003 00:44

Quote:

(Originally posted by krog711)
i already posted this in a different forum but it still applies here....

in my opinion the bible is a book made by racists sexist guys, it oprresses women and there was no way jesus could be white now that i got that out of the way...
a) Jesus was never said to be white in the bible. People tend to associate higher things or beings with themselves. In Africa, Jesus is seen as African, in Europe Caucasian, etc...
Quote:

the bible is an ancient book wrote in for the religion of the jue(jew but really spelled jue). not only is the bible a moral lessson but a tool of a worship. to worship what?
along with the graet lessons of the bible comes a strong obligation to worhsip a god. he is all powerful, at times forgiving, and at other times vengefull and vindictive(somehwat hypocritical of the bible's teachings). from what the bible says adan abd eve were created just a little after the dawn of earth. i think on the 5th day? well we have found the origin of man. it is in upper africa and it is mearly thousands of years old which is no close to the "begignig of time".
So? Many Christians don't take the bible literally. I for one don't and am a theistic evolutionist. Is it so hard to believe they had literary devices to emphasize points back then?
Quote:

there are also many other discrepincies in the bible to which i do not want to adress because it would tkae longer to write than i have. also there are hundreds of other religions and thousands of ancient religions. every grouping of people known to this world has had some form of relgiion weither from the modern christian religions to the ancient follwings of buddhism who do not actully beleive in a god. what makes you people htink that the bible id correct and that the god it speaks of is the true god. are you that aarogent than you will not approach the same topic but in other civilization's?
I don't think the bible is correct. In fact, it's very flawed. Considering re-translations, revisions, the chance for discrepencies in oral tradition, litereary devices, the use of allegory and metaphor, etc. there's no way it is. How is believing in a higher being arrogant? Many I know who believe in God have already researched other cultures and religions. Most of us try to keep an open mind for the possibility we may be wrong.
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also most ancient civilizations were polytheistic)beleived in many gods) and all modern relgions are monotheistic(beleiving in one religion) the only religion to date that has some form of polyhteism is hinduism but they beleive in an all supreme being that has many different forms and different peopel worship his different forms but they are stil monotheistsic. and the bible is an ancient document what makes it true why don't we beleieve the epic the illian aor the oddesy written by homer or other ancient documents?
a) It's spelled Iliad
b) The belief in any higher being doesn't soley rest on the bible. I believe it's flawed and metaphoric so therefore justify my belief in God with my own logic and reasoning.
Quote:

is it that u need some sort of prrof to trick oyu mind into beleiving that your religion is right so you have osmthign to fall back on, a crutch.
For some, yes. That's also why some don't believe. Because they can't handle the pressure of believing in something higher, so just ignore it. I can say everything is a crutch. What do you think technology is? A crutch.
Quote:

are you people that weak minded that you do not want to think about things and figure them out you just want to have a simple and non eventful life.
Actually, I think for myself. Many religious people have had eventful lives and revolutionized the world. Why would believing in God make you have a simple and uneventful life? That would be insanely boring.
Quote:

and that is how religion started there where unexplainbl"miracles" so they had to be the work of a more powerful being. and loang wiht this idea cam the after life and the doctrine of rencarnation. also there are other religions with the equivilent of the bible. and if you beleive so much in the bible then ahy not follow it's word to a tee.
Because:
a) It's flawed
b) Much of it is allegorical and metaphorical
Quote:

or do u want to just beleive in it and do what you want and cause mroe violence and more war and then say that you are a man of god so all the blood on your hands are washed of.
Where in the bible does it say that? It's all in your interpretation. It seems that you obviously never read it, and know very little of it. Don't argue about what you don't know.
Quote:

i think the basic philosiphy of religion is based on ignorance and stupidity.
Well, state what those philosophies are.
Quote:

and the weak minded are the peopel who follow religons. these are the peopel who will never realize there full potential because of an ignorant follwing of there's which they never question and think about.
I've always questioned me religion. Most people do. Please, explain how I am week minded.
Quote:

and shouldnd't all authority or nay thing that governs anyone's life be thought about in essence to make it better and in essence tyo make ther lives better? and many peopel in the past have said they had contacts with god and after they claimed this they used people took advantage of them and started wars and violence wich is the opposite of religon.
It's called manipulation. It's been done with law, enviroment, people, events, and everything else. People have free will to do what they want.
Quote:

also i think the bible is a greta moral lesson and i actully share alot fo ethics with that book but the worship part of it is flawed. and all modern religions around the world beleive in one god and there religious texts have the same strong moral and ethical code and the only thing that difffers from each relgiion is the type of worship. also the only religion that is true to there morals and ethics are the buddhists. there has never been a war containg any buddhists and never been a war about the religion because it is a peacefull one who beleives in many buddha's which means enlighted one.
And, it's because they live simple, humble, and "uneventful" lives. I for one, admire Buddhists, but would not like to live that kind of life.
Quote:

so what maies you peopel think that the bible is true? are you beleiveng everything people tell you and are you being an obediant dog and not using your power to question these thigns?
Question- Where did you get the idea that a religious person has to take their religious text as 100% true and literal, and not question authority?
[quote]
also if religiogn is sych a graet thing and your god save why is there a holpy war in the middle eats? [/qUOTE
Because people have free will. It would be a violation of that right if there was intervention.
Quote:

both of the religions belive in the same god but the muslinms belive in a profit which is said to be god's disciple and oother doesn't and they are fithing for the holy land.
The conflict is about land, not so much as religion. They both claim Israel.
Quote:

if there was a god do u think he would want his kin to fight of a small peice of earth are or are these peopel too ignorant to see that they are wrong and fighitng and causing death is wrong and they have done all this over a peice of land that was mentioned in the bible and ahy hasn't god stopped all this violence.
Because people are stubborn. They don't want to give up what's "rightfully theirs". Would you give up your home just because someone told you? God hasn't stopped it because again, it's an intervention of free will.
Quote:

if he is supreme and he is all knowing and an insurmountable force why hasn't he stopped it?
Answered above.
Quote:

why god put humans on earth along with the other animals want them to live there own lives and not be under his influence and wnats us to be independant?
Because mindless drones are meaningless.
Quote:

does that sound liek a nice forgiving god that the bible preaches about. and all you christans ahy r you so stubborn and ignorant shy can't you accept theat you may be wrong and u may have made an mistake and your religion might not be the right one just ebcause the most poweful nation's population are mostly christans doesn not mean that it is right. why can't you ppl just be tolerent and belive the way u want and think about thigns. what do you guys think?
I am tolerant. I have many Muslim, Jewish, Athiest, Agnostic, a few Wiccan, African, Cuacasian, Asian, Heterosexual, Homosexual friends. Why wouldn't I be? I always leave the possibility I may be wrong. In fact, I was taught to always consider the possibility of other religions or that there's no God in my religion classes.

AznBlade 30-Jan-2003 00:49

Quote:

(Originally posted by krog711)

all thorugh history not only has religion been used as a cruthch for the weak because they do not fully comprehend the universe and they want somthing to fall abck on when they die, but as a buisness and exploiting everyhting baout it. priests and other religous teahers used to seel indulegences. an indulgence ment that if you gave money to the church that not only would all your sins be wiped clean but the osuls of your relitives would be released from purgortory.
a) not all preists did
b) note the word "used"
c) preists are part of the institution of religion. What's on debate is the belief of a God.
Quote:

religion is the cruch for the weakminded an "elixer when you are weak" and peoepl just exploit it. and yes i just want to ask all you people out there one question. sinc emost of you seem to belive in the christian religion what makes you think that your god is real and what makes other major religions of the world wrong? why is hinduism, sikhism,buddhism,juedism, muslim, taoism worng?
Nothing does. Christianity makes the most sense to me. I acknowledge Mohammad of the Muslims and Siddhartha Gautama as the Buddha of Buddhism. I believe they were great people. The Jewish texts are integrated into Christian texs. Ever heard of the word "Judeo-Christian"? Anyways, my belief is that there was a "messenger" sent to all cultures of the world. Each with a different message, and different interpetations.
Quote:

do you vhristians even knwo anything baout these religions and if not why are you so focused on your god and not giving any other religions a chance and if you are religous arn't u suppsoed to have an open mind and how can u actully say you r a christian without knowing about nay other religions. are oyu people that ignorant and stubborn?
a) I've studied the Koran/Noble Qu'ran of the Muslims, the Jewish bible IS the Christian bible, except the Chrsitian bible has one more segment, I've studied the Vedas/Vegas a little, and have studied the life of the Buddha.
b) Are you that ignorant what you have to base people on stereotypes without any real knowledge of what you're dealing with?

krog711 30-Jan-2003 01:13

you are the most open minded and accpeting religious person i have ever heard speak. and i think compared to everyone i know i am the most educated about religions. and if christianty makes no sence to you than why belive? plus almost every religion of the world has close to the same morals and ethics but there worship is complelty different. this also leads me to belive that all these religions where ment to be a moral tale and lesson not a thing to govern your life. also the bible is what most of christianity is based on so saying the bible is flawed is saying christianty is flawed. aslo form everyhting i have heard and have been told jesus is percieved as a cacusian(oyu may be right and it may be because where i ahve came form). and you said that u were somewhat of an evolutionist so to me it osunds u have alot of reasoible dought in the religion itself but actully do take the moral lessons from the bible which i think is good. but it does sound liek you do not fully elive in god. and technology can be viewed as a crutch but it does not blind os from finidng the truth in actuallity it helps us and i think that anyhting people use/belive in that blinds them from finding the truth and makes there lives easier because they do not have to think about that subject agian is a crutch. and by boring uneventful lives i ment that these people didn't have self revolutions and never complelty started thinking for themselves. and as you said some things i have said are my intrreptation of the bible and everyone has there own interruption of the bible no? and when i said the basics of relgiion are based of ignorance and stupidity i ment that these peopel could not find the truth so they figured it had to be a higer force and that was the only way it could happen and that is ignorance and stupidity at it's best. and i think people who are are religious are weak minded because they do not complelty think for themselves and untill a person completly thinks for themselves and they question everything and come up with the truth i consider weak minded.(and yes no one knows the truth so it is debatible weather you are weak minded and you can debate that i am weak minded also). and i ahve studied many different religions and from all the religious people i have tlaked to it is more than they know about and i accknowlege that some christians know alot! more about other religions than other's such as yourself. and actully i am a complete pacifast and i hate violence and war and if somthing was rightfulyl naohter's i would give it o tthem because if i didn't do what was just it would just create more of what i hate. and also you may be tolerent but look at all these holy wars going on the majority of people arn't to tolerent and that's all we need is tolerence. and from everyhting u have said it sounds liek to me that u do not fully beilive in the christain god at all because as you pointed out a many of times it is flawed! and if you think about a higher power that created everything is complelty irrational. and it has been proves things can spontainsly generate and form new organisms. as mentioned earlier in the forum. and i'm glad you answered my questions and i hope that u r happy with my responcs to your questions.

AznBlade 30-Jan-2003 01:32

Quote:

(Originally posted by krog711)
you are the most open minded and accpeting religious person i have ever heard speak. and i think compared to everyone i know i am the most educated about religions. and if christianty makes no sence to you than why belive?
I never said that. The only things you need to be Christian are a belief in God and Jesus. There is no institution of Chrsitianity for it is more of a category of sects. Catholicism, Luteranism, Presbyterianism, etc. all fall under it.
Quote:

plus almost every religion of the world has close to the same morals and ethics but there worship is complelty different. this also leads me to belive that all these religions where ment to be a moral tale and lesson not a thing to govern your life.
Who said it wasn't a moral tale?
Quote:

also the bible is what most of christianity is based on so saying the bible is flawed is saying christianty is flawed.
Not necessarily, for there is no Christian institution. There's no Christian doctrine to follow. My beliefs are based on MY forms of logic and reasoning.
Quote:

aslo form everyhting i have heard and have been told jesus is percieved as a cacusian(oyu may be right and it may be because where i ahve came form). and you said that u were somewhat of an evolutionist so to me it osunds u have alot of reasoible dought in the religion itself but actully do take the moral lessons from the bible which i think is good. but it does sound liek you do not fully elive in god.
MY belief is that God created the big bang, then sort of guided evolution. Almost any scenario in that case is possible, but one explanation to the creation story of the bible is that it supports evolution and the big bang:
"Let there be light"- big bang, etc... and where each day is representative of an era or passage of time.

There is no physical proof of God, so there may or may not be, yet I lean more towards the belief in God. Religions are only systems of belief... interpretations if you will. Who's to say which is right and wrong?
Quote:

and technology can be viewed as a crutch but it does not blind os from finidng the truth in actuallity it helps us and i think that anyhting people use/belive in that blinds them from finding the truth and makes there lives easier because they do not have to think about that subject agian is a crutch.
Well, religion helps some people too. Whether you like it or not, it does.
Quote:

and by boring uneventful lives i ment that these people didn't have self revolutions and never complelty started thinking for themselves. and as you said some things i have said are my intrreptation of the bible and everyone has there own interruption of the bible no? and when i said the basics of relgiion are based of ignorance and stupidity i ment that these peopel could not find the truth so they figured it had to be a higer force and that was the only way it could happen and that is ignorance and stupidity at it's best. and i think people who are are religious are weak minded because they do not complelty think for themselves and untill a person completly thinks for themselves and they question everything and come up with the truth i consider weak minded.
I was raised in 9 years of Christian schooling. All 9 years, we were told to question our faith. That's why we studied other religions. How can you justify that?
Quote:

(and yes no one knows the truth so it is debatible weather you are weak minded and you can debate that i am weak minded also). and i ahve studied many different religions and from all the religious people i have tlaked to it is more than they know about and i accknowlege that some christians know alot! more about other religions than other's such as yourself. and actully i am a complete pacifast and i hate violence and war and if somthing was rightfulyl naohter's i would give it o tthem because if i didn't do what was just it would just create more of what i hate.
Well, unfortunately not all people are pacifist. We're talking about people's lives. In Israel, the Israelites have put the Palestinians into camps. They've taken their homes, money, and almsot everything they have. They're being suppressed. In a way, I can see where they come from.
Quote:

and also you may be tolerent but look at all these holy wars going on the majority of people arn't to tolerent and that's all we need is tolerence. and from everyhting u have said it sounds liek to me that u do not fully beilive in the christain god at all because as you pointed out a many of times it is flawed!
I pointed out the bible has flaws.
Quote:

and if you think about a higher power that created everything is complelty irrational. and it has been proves things can spontainsly generate and form new organisms. as mentioned earlier in the forum. and i'm glad you answered my questions and i hope that u r happy with my responcs to your questions.
And who posted that? Me. Yes, molecules can spontaneoulsy generate basic acids which lead to life, but the odds of it being successful are so low that I wouldn't have enough characters to post it in scientific notation! Also, there's the flaw in where the matter came from, what stimulated the energy, etc. There are also questions about why people have consciences and why people seek love. It's small things like that which lead people to a higher power.

Can you explain how it's irrational?

Enders Shadow 30-Jan-2003 01:35

Everybody has to beleive in something...

krog711 30-Jan-2003 01:49

i was syaing i think the bible is just a moral tale with a bitter consiquence if you do not follow it's teaching's and should not be a tool of worship. circa 0 people knew nothing about the big bang and such and they all put it on god and then as our technology increases and our knoweldge increases our views of how god did this becomes to be questioned and molded to fit what we know so that way god still plays a part in the equation of life and eventually i think that our technology will fully explain things and the notion of god will be conisdered unnessacary. and if everyone would take a few morals from there religous textx in the middle east then i don't think there war would happen. jesus was from what i understand a pacifast also and would do what is right and try anything to avoid conflict and both the ocutries that are fighitng in the middle eats belief in the same god and accept that jesus's existed so why then do they fight why couldn't they have followed there religion earlier. and not too many people go through 9 years of christian schooling. and also where i live the christian schools do not teach much or naything about other relgions. so everyone i have interacted has been for the most part oblivous to the beliefs and ideas of other religions. and of course religion helps peaople i know that just as a crutch helps a person with a broken ankle. life is a resialiant thing and traces of ancient life has been found on the moon's of saturn i do htink in a mostly frozen lake there an if life could survive there i think that it is really resiliant and can happen easier than you think. plus there are billions of solar systems out there. actully we have such powerful telescopes we can see light form so far away we are seeing planets form at the begigning of time and that jsust proves the vastenss of outer space and i'm sure on one more than one planet life tried to start and fialed and i'm sure on more thna one planet life tried to start and sucedded. also another subjest that was brought to my attention recently is cloning. i hear that most religious people think that if a human clone is born it will not respect the diea humans have souls what do u think?

ayoder17 30-Jan-2003 04:25

I am a Christian. Have been for years. Anyone would be if they would see what actually God does. I have seen people been heeled right in front of my eyes, that can't be just a coincidence. All I have to say is that we will see in the end when Jesus returns. Hope to see you there!

krog711 30-Jan-2003 04:31

are oyu tlakign baout those fake religous heeler's who use tricks and skams's to con peopel into money. because never inhistory has any one been cured instantly and it is impossible so you were either mistaken or were fraud. or alot of peopel's deases is acutlly mental so if they htink they are heald they willa ctully heal faster the human mind is a trcky thing and you have to remember it is responcible for every action of the body.

StarOwl 30-Jan-2003 04:54

I'm a Christian too, Catholic actually, but I've never seen anyone healed instantly either..... could you please go into more detail?

krog711 30-Jan-2003 05:04

also you peopel say that god put us here on earth and doe snot interfear with our lives because and i quote"mindless drones are pointless" yes so why would god heal any old person who belives in him why not save the thousands of peopel who starve every dsy in third world countries. why would he save a wealthy succesful doctor over a starving child. and any ways god iddn't supposed to interfear correct? so please admitt that those miracle healing thigs are a fraud to get you to belive in god and make you pay money most peopel realize this. liek john edwards the tv medium who says he can tlak to rpirts form ebyond. everyone knows he is not real and mots peopel know what method he uses. he just gives peoepl false hope and that's all this miracle ehalign thing is and at the most all it does is ocnivce the person they are heald which tricks the mond and actully makes them heal but asides formt hat it is a fraud and a fake.

Budly 30-Jan-2003 05:57

Krog- i recomend you get hooked on phonics... it took me like 10 mins to read your statement altho i do agree w/ you on john edwards. He is the biggest Douche is the universe.

gecko 30-Jan-2003 10:12

Quote:

(Originally posted by StarOwl)

I'm a Christian too, Catholic actually, but I've never seen anyone healed instantly either..... could you please go into more detail?
healing from Christians are usually slow in effect especially by prayer...... very few people will get healed instantly unless it is really demonic...(which is very rare)

we start healing the person when we pray for them..... when we pray, our spirit shields the person we are prayer for or that our spirit drives the illness out..... the person would usually vomit or cough out the illness or demonic power...... when we Christians use our spirits hard enough in the name of Jesus....

gecko 30-Jan-2003 10:25

Quote:

(Originally posted by krog711)

also you peopel say that god put us here on earth and doe snot interfear with our lives because and i quote"mindless drones are pointless" yes so why would god heal any old person who belives in him why not save the thousands of peopel who starve every dsy in third world countries. why would he save a wealthy succesful doctor over a starving child. and any ways god iddn't supposed to interfear correct? so please admitt that those miracle healing thigs are a fraud to get you to belive in god and make you pay money most peopel realize this. liek john edwards the tv medium who says he can tlak to rpirts form ebyond. everyone knows he is not real and mots peopel know what method he uses. he just gives peoepl false hope and that's all this miracle ehalign thing is and at the most all it does is ocnivce the person they are heald which tricks the mond and actully makes them heal but asides formt hat it is a fraud and a fake.
he heals becuse we Christians petition for the person to be heal through Christ.... becuse the old person believed in him and prayed to him...... we are dip in sin the moment we are born in this world..... Jesus died on the cross for us so that we can be washed in his blood..... God does not interfer because we are born into this world to get punished, however, He is merciful enough to sent Jesus to us..... God can interfer when someone with faith, washed by the blood of Jesus, pray for the well-being of the person...... not every healing expects money to be given, if that's the case, the person is not saved and is definitely a fraud...... he fakes it all but that does not mean that God is not real...... I can pray for you or anyone and not accept any money...... and you will most probably get healed..... God can interfer anytime he wants but he is unwilling as we are supposed to be punished, yet he sent Jesus to our aid......

Hurleyy 30-Jan-2003 10:27

Hahahaha.. that is by far, the most complete and utter bullshit I have ever heard. Now if prayer can "heal" things, then why are their starving people? And why does the church collect money to give to charity? Afterall, they would just pray the problem away..

Hurleyy 30-Jan-2003 10:28

Why are we getting punished for something we didnt do? Seems a bit illogical eh?

krog711 30-Jan-2003 12:32

well didn't everyone know that these faith healer's are fake. seorusly they have tv specials on them all the time tellingh ow they did it and how fake they are and the horrible thing is most of those peopel who run the frauds are actully religious people. do u think if you get cancer that you will get saved? and if it's the truth than whay not let everyone think it so that way moderne medicine would be compelty irrevelant.

ayoder17 30-Jan-2003 21:48

Quote:

(Originally posted by StarOwl)

I'm a Christian too, Catholic actually, but I've never seen anyone healed instantly either..... could you please go into more detail?

a groupd of us prayed for this women with cancerous lumps on her. she went to the doctor the next day and the doctor said she was healed. there are no more lumps on her body. i am not saying you have to believe this. if i wasn't a Christin it would be hard to believe it too. we will just see in the end.

krog711 30-Jan-2003 22:26

1- we do not know everyhting about cancer so sayign that because you orayed to god aksing him to cure her does not mean that he did. ignorance is the absence of alll the fatcs and you can't really say god did that. also as someone mentioned earleir the perosn getting healed has to belive in god and complelty accept him and morre things to get healed so praying for her owudl have no affect.

AznBlade 31-Jan-2003 00:35

Those faith healers are fake. If they really did have "the power", they wouldn't waste their time begging for money as nomads, but making thousands curing people and getting rid of disease. Has anyone been healed by cancer or been risen from the dead, with clinical analysis? No. They're either:
a) Actors
b) Gullible people
c) Affected by pshycho-somatic disorders easily cured by thinking you are

krog711 31-Jan-2003 00:43

yes you are right i'm glad you reeiterated my point and i thught that most people knew that

Ketam 31-Jan-2003 01:44

Quote:

(Originally posted by krog711)

1- we do not know everyhting about cancer so sayign that because you orayed to god aksing him to cure her does not mean that he did. ignorance is the absence of alll the fatcs and you can't really say god did that. also as someone mentioned earleir the perosn getting healed has to belive in god and complelty accept him and morre things to get healed so praying for her owudl have no affect.
I've nvr heard it said that 'you have to believe in God and Jesus to be healed'... in fact I know of some healings where the person healed just walked away... but mostly, if you've just been cured of cancer when the doc gave u no hope, I think your inclination would be towards following God who healed you, wouldn't it?

Anyway, a few things bout prayer healing that I can call to mind rite now...
1. It's not like medicine, doesn't work every time... God isn't simply a source of healing energy or a machine we can manipulate... He will heal in response to prayer true, but sometimes for other reasons He wont, I see no problem with that, He's God after all..

2. Some would say that makes me just a 'blind, ignorant, belief only by faith' type of person... but healings DO happen, and you know what? most healings DON'T happen to believers... I've prayed for my Christian friends for years without them getting healed, but when I pray for some1 non-Christian, 'boom' they get healed... a pastor at my church was saying that it's cos healing was nvr supposed to be a crutch from God, sometimes out of His mercy He would heal, but mostly those who haven't heard or believed in His love yet...

3. krog was talking about 'isn't it that God doesn't intervene?' I think you didn't get the point earlier, God DOES intervene that's why we know He's there, it's that He doesn't FORCE ppl into anything, there is free will in that... but He does intervene with miracles and signs and wonders and what not... including healings, but those miracles are, shall we say, a by-product only... just some more proof of His love..

4. Now you're going to ask me bout why isn't EVERY1 healed.. or saved from starvation... God's work I don't claim to understand, but my own understanding is that if every1 could just be healed just like that then it wouldn't be a miracle anymore... and what would be the point then?

anyway Azn I agree that most faith healers are fake... the way you tell is if the promise results unquestionably, because then they'd be saying 'hey I can control God' which is a lot of bs right? but healings DO take place, raisings from the dead, healing from cancer.. right now a lot of that is taking place in Africa, if I'm not wrong not long ago an Indonesian pastor was raised from the dead cos he had unfinished work to complete in his town or sumting like that... I know from the other threads that you don't believe that GOd HAS to exist, but my belief is that He does, and that's the only explanation for all these miracles I keep hearing about...

another thing is, lots of ppl will probably reply and say 'bull, you're just repeating stories you heard, no proof' and then ask for proof from 'unbaised' ppl, those non-christians... well just take a hypothetical scenario where A is raised from the dead... wouldn't every1 who HAD proof about A's death and saw him alive be so amazed as to follow Whoever had the power to raise A?... there'd be no unbiased ppl left in cases like that, BECAUSE it was a miracle, and those sort of things tend to influence ppl's beliefs... just tell me if sum1 you saw die was suddenly raised, or if your uncle's cancer was suddenly cured, wouldn't YOU start thinking bout this whole God business?

krog711 31-Jan-2003 02:08

1- we do not fully understand cancer so we can not say that because you miracausly got heald means it is an act of god. a few thousands of years ago the sun rise was a mriacle and coudl onyl be explained by a god and we now know that to be wrong. most "miracles" can be scientificly explained.
2-i don't belive in god and i don't think god heals. seorusly just because a beliver wants ot be healed and osme one else prayes for them means they will get healed. i thinkl that is wrong. if you want to knwo why i do not belive in god look back in this forum or a few more religious threads.
3-the raising form the dead thing isn't quite right there has been reports of that all over the world. some peopel who belive in voodoo sy athey cna do it and when they do it they use a natural toxin found in some sea fish and some plants and it basicly lowes the pulse down to undetectible measures and the eprosn can stay this way for nearly three days i think and then there syatems kick back in. you seorusly are weak minded if you actully think people can return from death. wow.
3-you said that most non belivers are healed when prated for instead of belivers. let me guess you think it is because belivers will go to the enternal bliss heavanand the only way to do so is to dies. and alot of religions think hat hell is any where god is absent so god is somehow making these no belivers stay in "hell"(earth) longer?
4-in the bible god is desribed somtimes as a loving forgivng etc. father. other times he is a vengefull bitter god. why woudl this god need to intervene at all to prove his presence if you belive in him shouldn't you have enough fath in him wihtout his presence.
5- i would ask that you please refrain from saying miracle as refering to the work of god because i already described we do not know everyhting about this world yet. so we ca not acuratly diagnoes some diseases and give cures for them. liek i said before in ancient times the sun rise was a miracle and peoepl thought it must have been an act of god and that was because the lact of knowledge.

ademir 01-Feb-2003 07:11

yes i believe in god, he loves us and created us with the power of choice. If something bad happens, atheists atoumatiically say that god doesnt exist cos he supposedly let it happen. read any holy book and it will tell you that god created us imperfect and it is up to us as to what happens to this world after its creation, not god himself, who will not intervene. If we choose unfaith, we will burn in hell, if we dont, we will prosper in heaven. Simple :) cos its up to us :)

Hurleyy 01-Feb-2003 10:37

Quote:

If something bad happens, atheists atoumatiically say that god doesnt exist cos he supposedly let it happen.
Actually, that isnt my reason for not believeing in a god. I know bad things happen, it is a fact of life. But I have many reasons for not believing in a god.

Quote:

read any holy book and it will tell you that god created us imperfect and it is up to us as to what happens to this world after its creation, not god himself, who will not intervene.
*Correction*, not any holy book, the one holy book. Which has yet to prove to anyone but gullible people, that there is a god. I wont even go into the not intervening thing, because the bible itself says that god has intervened with humanity, but they bible is false anyway.

AznBlade 01-Feb-2003 17:12

Quote:

(Originally posted by HurleyBD)
*Correction*, not any holy book, the one holy book. Which has yet to prove to anyone but gullible people, that there is a god. I wont even go into the not intervening thing, because the bible itself says that god has intervened with humanity, but they bible is false anyway.
Well, what are your reasons for this? I have yet to see why anyone who has a belief in something higher is called gullible, or why you seem to have a superiority complex over it.

You see the bible wrong. That's fine. It's flawed over retranslations, revisions, and mistakes in oral tradition. It's been interpreted wrong and can be interpreted many ways. Yet, what you see doesn't necessarily condemn all, just because you will to see it.

cid12 01-Feb-2003 17:16

gul·li·ble ( P )
adj.
Easily deceived or duped.

It depends on what you think makes someone easly deceived or duped, if it is the person easly believing in something that contradicts the logic of what has been observed so far and/or believing something intangible....

AznBlade 01-Feb-2003 17:26

Yet, he's basing this on something that doesn't contradict fact. What of my beliefs contradicts known and observed fact? I'm a Christian theistic evolutionist with an open mind.

cid12 01-Feb-2003 17:44

Quote:

(Originally posted by AznBlade)

Yet, he's basing this on something that doesn't contradict fact. What of my beliefs contradicts known and observed fact? I'm a Christian theistic evolutionist with an open mind.
I just wanted to put the meaning of gullible of the table, and in fact the aplication of it is somewhat anbiguos, under a certain point of view it does not aply but under another it does, so to a degree I think it is legitimit, although it depends on the interpretation.

Hurleyy 02-Feb-2003 03:49

I have one thing to ask you AznBlade, how can you believe in god if you are a theistic evolutionist, and you believe the bible is not true? What is you evidence that makes you a Christian?

AznBlade 02-Feb-2003 17:59

Quote:

(Originally posted by HurleyBD)
I have one thing to ask you AznBlade, how can you believe in god if you are a theistic evolutionist,
I just explained...
I believe any number of scenarios could've happened. Either:
a) God created the universe in 6 periods. (ex. "Let there be Light" was the big bang) where each da represents a period in time. We are now in the 7th period where God is "inactive" (not really inactive, but it's the best I could come up with closest to what I mean). Each period also represents a stage in evolution.
b) God created the universe, and then just let everything go
c) God created the universe and guided evolution with no specific way as to how the bible puts it
Quote:

and you believe the bible is not true?
I believe it is flawed. Thre are numerous revisions, retranslations, mistakes in oral history, etc. to have one true. There are no original texts directly from the authors, so there is no way to make sure one is correct. There are contradictions, metaphors, and allegory all in the bible.
Quote:

What is you evidence that makes you a Christian?
My evidence as said numerous times before lies within my own bounds of reasoning and logic. I've demonstrated this already, so if you desire to see an example, look back.

Lord Simon 02-Feb-2003 18:30

God doesn't exist!

And the bible is just a old storie book!

Go With Luck All KCCO Members!
http://get-me.to/KCCO

AznBlade 02-Feb-2003 18:55

Quote:

(Originally posted by Lord Simon)

God doesn't exist!

And the bible is just a old storie book!

Go With Luck All KCCO Members!
http://get-me.to/KCCO
Really? Support it. Or, you can just do what you are now and act like an ignorant idiot and spam the thread with useless comments that contribute nothing.

I feel you're probably more of the ignorant idiot type as you don't even know how to imput a signature properly.

Lord Simon 02-Feb-2003 22:22

Quote:

(Originally posted by AznBlade)

Really? Support it. Or, you can just do what you are now and act like an ignorant idiot and spam the thread with useless comments that contribute nothing.

I feel you're probably more of the ignorant idiot type as you don't even know how to imput a signature properly.
You don't have to call me a idiot just because you were rased to be a total christian jurk by your parents!

God doesn't exist, grow up! You aren't living in a fantasie world where you come to heaven if you have been a good boy/girl. And you won't go to hell if you have doon something terribal. You just die!

The Bible and the whole God thing is just a thing some people came up with for many years ago when there children asked them what happends when they die and how the world was created and so on.

Enderwig 02-Feb-2003 23:39

Quote:

(Originally posted by Lord Simon)

You don't have to call me a idiot just because you were rased to be a total christian jurk by your parents!

God doesn't exist, grow up! You aren't living in a fantasie world where you come to heaven if you have been a good boy/girl. And you won't go to hell if you have doon something terribal. You just die!

The Bible and the whole God thing is just a thing some people came up with for many years ago when there children asked them what happends when they die and how the world was created and so on.
As this is only your sixth post ill let you off, but generally you read what a person has written in a thread before you go mouthing them off. THis way you will no what to insult them about. So if you read back you will prob see how little your insults apply to azn. Plus i second what he said about you and im an atheist. Try and support what your saying.

Bulsara 03-Feb-2003 02:36

"i stopped believing in god, or anything, because my sunday teacher told me that a rich man cant really go to heaven. its so obvious that a guy made up this religion to gain the support of the peasents.."

Your sunday school teacher did you a great disservice. He or she was teaching you the passage about the rich young ruler who thinks he is perfect and asks jesus what he has to do to get into heaven. Your sunday school teacher probably misinterpreted the phrase of Jesus' it is harder for a rich man to enter heaven than a camel to travel through the eye of the needle. The truth is is that the eye of the needle was an actual place jesus was referring to, a crevass in a canyon, not the place you thread a piece of string through when trying to knit something. It was indeed possible, although hard, for a camel to go through the eye of the needle. Anyway Jesus stated this in order to illustrate how hard it is for rich people to accept God's free gift of salvation since the rich are so accustomed to doing things by themselves. God's free gift of salvation, aka way to go to heaven, outlined in the bible, entails acknowledging you are a sinner(do things that go against God's will ie lying, murder, lust ect.), beleiving Jesus was god,or part of God/son of God(the trinity is a mindbending subject), and asking God to forgive you of those sins. Going to heaven doesn't depend on your class or good works or bad works. It only depends on your willingness to beleive in God. If your sunday school teacher did not teach you that she did you a great disservice.
If you have any questions you don't feel like posting e-mail me at [email protected]

Steigere 03-Feb-2003 02:53

Quote:

It was indeed possible, although hard, for a camel to go through the eye of the needle
How big is the needle you're referring to here? 7foot by 4 foot?

I obviously don't comprehend how a camel and pass through the eye of a needle and remain in one piece. Is this a metaphor or a riddle or something?

Can you please explain how this happens?

AznBlade 03-Feb-2003 02:56

Quote:

(Originally posted by Lord Simon)

You don't have to call me a idiot just because you were rased to be a total christian jurk by your parents!

God doesn't exist, grow up! You aren't living in a fantasie world where you come to heaven if you have been a good boy/girl. And you won't go to hell if you have doon something terribal. You just die!

The Bible and the whole God thing is just a thing some people came up with for many years ago when there children asked them what happends when they die and how the world was created and so on.
Lol, I'm not calling you an idiot because you're atheist. I'm calling uo an idiot because you have nothing to back up what you say. Lol, as the saying goes "When Ignorance is bliss, tis folley to be wise."

First, it's "jerk". Learn to spell. Second, you couldn't even imput a signature properly... lol. Third, all you do is make accusations with no support whatsoever. Fourth, you do it in an arrogant tone and treat it as if you're so high and mighty. Look around the forums. I'm pretty tolerant of many things. Of what I'm not are stereotypes, ignorance, and people who think they're right with no support. You as I've seen have embodied all three. You stereotype all Christians, demonstrate ignorance, and are stating subjective statements with not one shred of evidence. This isn't about religion. Wake up. It's about you having no proof, back up, or justification. People see what they want to see. You evidently saw my post in offence just because I'm Christian. If an atheist told the same to you, you'd listen. But, just because I'm Christian you take offence. There's a word for that. Prejudice.

Drizzt 03-Feb-2003 04:30

Quote:

(Originally posted by AznBlade)

Those faith healers are fake. If they really did have "the power", they wouldn't waste their time begging for money as nomads, but making thousands curing people and getting rid of disease. Has anyone been healed by cancer or been risen from the dead, with clinical analysis? No. They're either:
a) Actors
b) Gullible people
c) Affected by pshycho-somatic disorders easily cured by thinking you are
so you're saying that john and peter's healings are fake too?
well my youth group counsiler says that she hear in the phillipines that someone is able to pray for someone, and they would be healed, and they are healed because they have faith in God that they would be healed. and yes, that person is healing hundreds if not thousands of people.

lord simon, i cant prove to you that God exists, but you can't prove to me that he doesnt either.

AznBlade 04-Feb-2003 00:24

Quote:

(Originally posted by Lord Drizzt)
so you're saying that john and peter's healings are fake too?
well my youth group counsiler says that she hear in the phillipines that someone is able to pray for someone, and they would be healed, and they are healed because they have faith in God that they would be healed. and yes, that person is healing hundreds if not thousands of people.
They might have been using psycho-somatic techniques. Yet, I have no evidence that they are fake because I can't examine them. I do however feel those televangelists who hit people's heads then "heal" them are fake.

If someone is able to pray and heal someone, why are there people who are prayed for, yet still die?

Hurleyy 04-Feb-2003 17:11

Quote:

"When Ignorance is bliss, tis folley to be wise."
believing in god is ignorance. its not like i have anything to gain by not believing in god. you think i like the fact that i am going to die and just cease to exist? no, it takes courage to be an athiest. believing in god is easy.

Puzuma 04-Feb-2003 17:17

Do I belive in god? Yes
Religion? No

Ever wonder what the "church" would be like if the bible was written by Stephen King, Clive Barker & Anne Rice?

cid12 04-Feb-2003 19:43

Quote:

(Originally posted by AznBlade)

They might have been using psycho-somatic techniques. Yet, I have no evidence that they are fake because I can't examine them. I do however feel those televangelists who hit people's heads then "heal" them are fake.

If someone is able to pray and heal someone, why are there people who are prayed for, yet still die?
This reminds me of 2 things:
-creation vs evolution, when sometimes there are things the churchies do not know/understand they say it was god or prayer...

-Placebo: (no, not the band) one of the 1º cases of placebo effect documented was a guy trying to prove that testosterone is produced in the testiculs, and causes mail caracteristics and behaviours.
So the guy triturated dog testiculs (talk about a dog life) and injected it to himself...
He documented that he felt the revival of certain "capabiltys" not gone but merely dorment.

Everyone knows testosterone is produced in the testicules, but if you had biology you would recal that the level of hormones in the body is regulated by a balanced/equilibrium mechanism... For it to work the hormones must be in solution (in the blood), so testiculs produce testosterone but do not store it, and there is similar amounts of testosterone in the testicules as the rest of the body (men only)...

What caused the awakenig of the dorment capacitys (or simply notacing more), was not really higher amounts of testosterone, but the beliefe in the process.
...maybe the full moon (AAUUUU!!!!), or simply a miracle?

I'll go with placebo effect!

bildo14 04-Feb-2003 20:05

Way off track...
 
Isn't this thread to determin a conscensus of who believes in God? The testicular story above was good...but I missed the point..Anyway i just want to say a couple of things.

To the athiest above who said that not believing in God was harder then believing in Him...Well your way off...Just a couple of questions..By what measure do you live your life? By what standard do you make decisions or set your life's course? Christians use the Bible (God's word). We use Christ as an example for Christian living...If following perfection is classified as easy in your book...then I'd like to read your book...but perfection isn't attainable..We as Christians try and live up to Christ's standards, not through works or good deeds, but through obedience to God's words...the good deeds or works are just an effect of our obediance..The difference is, is when we fail...God will always forgive us...It's a very rewarding and difficult life to live.

If you have no standards of living then how can it be hard? If you make your own rules to fit your needs doesn't that make it easier?

Enderwig 04-Feb-2003 20:36

Re: Way off track...
 
Quote:

(Originally posted by bildo14)

Isn't this thread to determin a conscensus of who believes in God? The testicular story above was good...but I missed the point..Anyway i just want to say a couple of things.

To the athiest above who said that not believing in God was harder then believing in Him...Well your way off...Just a couple of questions..By what measure do you live your life? By what standard do you make decisions or set your life's course? Christians use the Bible (God's word). We use Christ as an example for Christian living...If following perfection is classified as easy in your book...then I'd like to read your book...but perfection isn't attainable..We as Christians try and live up to Christ's standards, not through works or good deeds, but through obedience to God's words...the good deeds or works are just an effect of our obediance..The difference is, is when we fail...God will always forgive us...It's a very rewarding and difficult life to live.

If you have no standards of living then how can it be hard? If you make your own rules to fit your needs doesn't that make it easier?
Atheists do have a set of moral codes that they live by. Its called being true to yourself and your consciance (?spell?). We dont simply choose what rules we want to live by. Most of the time it stems from our upbringing and a intrinsic sence of right or wrong. IF we do something that we know is wrong we feel bad about it. If we do something that is right we feel good. I know its not that black and white but thats the jist of it.

In another way the society we live in also determine the standard of living we must acheive. THose who dont act right are often rejected by society and in extreme cases imprisoned for it. If we want to be liked, to be accepted we must behave morally.

THe two rules i follow in all things (or try to) is do onto others as you would have done onto yourself and the greatest good to the greatest number. (i personally believe these are the same thing in essence). THis covers the two main ethical ways of think - deontological and utilitarianism. These rules can be seen in many different types of life. THese rules form the basis of christianity.

Things are easy for a christian in this sence as they do see everything in black and white ie would christ have done this or not. For an atheist it is harder to determine what is right and what is wrong. As such christians do not have to think for themselves if what they are doing is right or wrong, and will ignore any arguments that ligitimently say what they think is unethical all they need do is look it up in the bible and act accordingly. Do any of them question if the bible is morally correct?

My main point is that atheists do not remove themselves from moral obligation, but use the moral obligations given by society and their own INSTINCT for right and wrong. There is nothing forcing us to but life is better if we do follow these rules. So basically atheists act morally for their inherent moral goodness, for the good of themselves and for the good of those around them. I believe this a more noble cause than blindly following instructions from a god who supposedly exhists and will give me bliss if i do as he instructs.

bildo14 04-Feb-2003 23:18

Isn't it funny.....
 
THe two rules i follow in all things (or try to) is do onto others as you would have done onto yourself and the greatest good to the greatest number. (i personally believe these are the same thing in essence). THis covers the two main ethical ways of think - deontological and utilitarianism. These rules can be seen in many different types of life. THese rules form the basis of christianity.


Your prior paragraphs have worked very hard at convincing those reading that God isn't one to be believed in...But you yourself follow a basic teaching of Christ and use it as a base for your morality...Do unto others....Seems rather ironic in my opinion but i'll move on to the next point..

These 4 or 5 pages of posts are just a taste of what has been traded over the ages...this is a never ending cycle of opinions and explanations...Let me give a little insite...

Christians believe in the Bible, Christ, God and living by the guidlines set down.... Non believers don't... I don't see what the argument is about? Why we believe? Why are our belief's wrong in your eyes? We are not judging...Only God has the power to judge and i'd rather leave it up to him anyway...
About societies rules...Christians are called to be law abiding citizens as well as respectful and supporting of our governments no matter at which level...We do that as well as follow Christs teachings and what the Bible says...I say that's about twice the amount of rules that we willingly follow...and it's not regulated by our feelings or a whim of conscience..

German1 04-Feb-2003 23:25

I dont belive in god, mostly because thier is no real proof, most of the "proof" is speculation. I am a firm beliver that once we die our spirt or whatever doesnt fly off to some magic place of eternal bliss, nor do we spend the rest of eternity in hell. I dont think we even have spirts.

bildo14 04-Feb-2003 23:35

do you believe you have a conscience? is God/ Christianity the only non tangible thing out there? What else can't you see or hear or feel or touch that you believe? What's the difference? I beg to differ with you..everyone has a soul...though the condition of some are different then others..

ghdfgsdrgsdfgdr 04-Feb-2003 23:36

I see many people say God gave us free will. He never did. And since you use the bible as an example so will I.

God never gave people free will because before Adam and Eve ate from the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil they never knew what was right and what was wrong. They were oblivous to the consequences of any of thier actions. Yet they were still punished from eating from the tree even though they could not of comprehended what they had done was wrong. God also lied to Adam and Eve saying the tree would kill them if they ate or touched it. The serpent, who I have heard many believed to be Satan was actually telling Adam and Eve the truth. This is what the serpent said:

Quote from the Bible:

"You will not die; for God knows that when you eat of it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil."

The following is the reason why God forced Adam and Eve out of the garden.

Here is also another quote from the Bible, God's words:

"knowing good and evil; and now, he might reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life, and eat, and live forever"

Eating from the tree of life would make them live forever and they would be just as powerful as God would. God was afraid of this because he wanted to preserve his power, so he removed them from the garden so that would never happen.

Enderwig 04-Feb-2003 23:49

Re: Isn't it funny.....
 
Quote:

(Originally posted by bildo14)

THe two rules i follow in all things (or try to) is do onto others as you would have done onto yourself and the greatest good to the greatest number. (i personally believe these are the same thing in essence). THis covers the two main ethical ways of think - deontological and utilitarianism. These rules can be seen in many different types of life. THese rules form the basis of christianity.


Your prior paragraphs have worked very hard at convincing those reading that God isn't one to be believed in...But you yourself follow a basic teaching of Christ and use it as a base for your morality...Do unto others....Seems rather ironic in my opinion but i'll move on to the next point..

These 4 or 5 pages of posts are just a taste of what has been traded over the ages...this is a never ending cycle of opinions and explanations...Let me give a little insite...

Christians believe in the Bible, Christ, God and living by the guidlines set down.... Non believers don't... I don't see what the argument is about? Why we believe? Why are our belief's wrong in your eyes? We are not judging...Only God has the power to judge and i'd rather leave it up to him anyway...
About societies rules...Christians are called to be law abiding citizens as well as respectful and supporting of our governments no matter at which level...We do that as well as follow Christs teachings and what the Bible says...I say that's about twice the amount of rules that we willingly follow...and it's not regulated by our feelings or a whim of conscience..
I find it funny that you treat it as basic teaching of Christ's. It is a 'teaching that has been around from before Christ's time, from before even the time of humans. This basic moral is evident in areas of the animal kingdom. I attribute this teaching to life. I admit it is put well in the bible, but the idea was around long before Christ was. So it isnt really ironic. Its quiet strange however that you think Christ came up with this idea first.

Societies rules are to a large extent similar to those of christ's teachings. In fact it is where i beleive christian teachings come from in the first place so i dont see how by following christs rules as well as societies you are doubling the rules you follow. The only additional ones are those about worshiping god. THe difference i pointed out was the reason/motivation for following these rules. which was.

"So basically atheists act morally for their inherent moral goodness, for the good of themselves and for the good of those around them. I believe this a more noble cause than blindly following instructions from a god who supposedly exhists and will give me bliss if i do as he instructs."

And this motivation is not something i consider whimsical. It is only whimsical if the person is, in which case it wont matter if he follows God or not his actions will still show moral weekness and whimsicalness(is that a word?).

bildo14 04-Feb-2003 23:58

If they didn't have free will how would they have been able to make the choice to eat from the tree?

AznBlade 05-Feb-2003 00:39

Quote:

believing in god is ignorance.
Wow, yet again you manage to state unsupported crap. Do you have any support or the slightest bit of evidence to back up your convictions? Did you even read my rebuttle against your post?
Quote:

its not like i have anything to gain by not believing in god. you think i like the fact that i am going to die and just cease to exist? no, it takes courage to be an athiest. believing in god is easy.
Believing in God is easy? Are you insane (no offence)? Christians especially recieve so much persecution. Look around the forums. People who believe in God are hated by many. I acknowledge being an atheist is being hard, yet people with faith in God have the task of justifying that faith day after day. Many can't do that, so that's why there are less and less who believe.
Quote:

(Originally posted by Agemmenion)
I see many people say God gave us free will. He never did. And since you use the bible as an example so will I.
Remember, you referenced the bible first. I as a Christian firmly believe Genesis is figurative and allegorical.
Quote:

God never gave people free will because before Adam and Eve ate from the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil they never knew what was right and what was wrong. They were oblivous to the consequences of any of thier actions. Yet they were still punished from eating from the tree even though they could not of comprehended what they had done was wrong.
Yet, it was a direct command not to. God said not to, yet they still did. And, according some Christian beliefs, all people are born with natural moral sense (conscience) of what is right and wrong.
Quote:

God also lied to Adam and Eve saying the tree would kill them if they ate or touched it. The serpent, who I have heard many believed to be Satan was actually telling Adam and Eve the truth. This is what the serpent said:

Quote from the Bible:

"You will not die; for God knows that when you eat of it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil."

The following is the reason why God forced Adam and Eve out of the garden.

Here is also another quote from the Bible, God's words:

"knowing good and evil; and now, he might reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life, and eat, and live forever"

Eating from the tree of life would make them live forever and they would be just as powerful as God would. God was afraid of this because he wanted to preserve his power, so he removed them from the garden so that would never happen.
First off, what bible are you using? My NIV has totally different wording.

Second, have you ever thought that this whole thing is figurative?

Third, how is free will absent?

HlR0 05-Feb-2003 03:17

How long is this thread going to go on for? As far as I've seen since my last post, it's been the same words switched around over and over. It's kind of pointless.

ghdfgsdrgsdfgdr 05-Feb-2003 05:20

Quote:

First off, what bible are you using? My NIV has totally different wording.
I am using the King James version.

Quote:

Remember, you referenced the bible first. I as a Christian firmly believe Genesis is figurative and allegorical.
How convienent. Anything bad in the bible is "figurative and allegorical" yet anything no one else has a problem with isn't.

If the whole bible is "figurative and allegorical" why can't God be "figurative and allegorical"?

Quote:

If they didn't have free will how would they have been able to make the choice to eat from the tree?
Eve didnt know it was wrong to do
since she never knew the difference between right and wrong. You can't make a choice if you don't fully understand what you are doing.

AznBlade 06-Feb-2003 00:41

Quote:

(Originally posted by Agemmenion)
How convienent. Anything bad in the bible is "figurative and allegorical" yet anything no one else has a problem with isn't.
No, I believe most everything in the bible is figuartive and allegorical. It's also flawed through revisions, retranslations, errors in oral history, etc.
Quote:

If the whole bible is "figurative and allegorical" why can't God be "figurative and allegorical"?
Because I interpret the figuartive language and allegory to be represent the general theology of God. Also, the majority of the the reason I believe in God doesn't rely on the bible, but rather my own way of reasoning and logic.

Yet, I could be wrong and there could be no God. I really won't know until I die.
Quote:

Eve didnt know it was wrong to do
since she never knew the difference between right and wrong. You can't make a choice if you don't fully understand what you are doing.
If you don't believe this to be real, why are you questioning it as literal? It seems odd when people do that.

going to change 11-Feb-2003 02:02

Guys here is my tidbit

All of the questions like:

Is there a God?
or the one whoever started this thing asked

1. they are all rhetorical
-no matter what someone says or believes no one will ever no or find out truly until you die and see god or nothing happens and you find out there is no god or maybe when you die you loose all Consciousness and everything ends when you die. My point is whatever you believe someone else believes the opposite and there is where the rhetorical thing comes in. Neither one side can prove it is or not true, Both sides have good points to prove it is whatever they believe, but on the other had both sides are blind to each other.

2. You never know
- no matter what anyone says you never now. What you think to be true one day may be a fallacy the next. my point here is you may think there is a god, but in all honesty there could not be one. Or the other way around you may be an atheist or not think there is a god, but in all reality there could be one.


3. no-god statements
I always enjoy this one
- Do you believe in Santa Claus and the Tooth Fairy? Well then how can you say you believe in God?
- Science proves that god does not exist


4. yes-god statements
- How can something come from nothing?
- The human body is another one they use.

5. My point is believe what you want to believe but don’t say things if you don’t now stuff because if you have not read the bible cover to cover then don’t tell me there is not a god. Or don’t tell me there is a god if you were just told by your little parents as a child. Search for yourself your mind is your most powerful weapon use it.

I do believe in god but there are somethings I do not believe in though. The bible for example: some of it is undoubtedly true, but some of it has to be meated up over past generations. People change and manipulate words. And no one can tell me that the bible written thousands of years ago was not changed or reworded. Something again I say are true but the bible I believe has many faults.

Hero of Time 24-Feb-2003 16:26

God did not say they would Adam and Eve would die buddy, get that straight. And also, God specifically told them NOT to eat from the tree. Then they did. Why would they do that when God told them not to? Free will. God gave us free will. If God controlled their every movement and such, why would He have them do something He DIDN'T want them to do? So He could have someone to punish? What sense does that make? We have free will. That is that. And if we don't, according to you, all of our actions are planned, and if you know they are planned, why do you argue that God does not exist? If we did not have free will, then who would plan our actions? Obviously someone would have to, that someone being God. So why would you not believe? But then, we do have free will, a gift given to us by who? God. The defense rests.

Chizzy3 24-Feb-2003 17:01

...
 
A brain allows us to have free will and make decisions, and the brain is made up of living cells. Not god.

metao 24-Feb-2003 17:16

As youve probably all worked out from the Creation/Evolution thread... I am an agnostic.


I dont really think whether there is a God is important, as long as you live a good life.


If I had to define further, I would say this:

+ I believe that if there is a God, he is not the interfering type. He is more inclined to see how the dice roll, rather than have the result the same every time. I think he probably finds us very amusing.

+ I have great respect for the belief systems of Bhuddism, and the ancient Greeks, Romans and the Vikings. In the latter case, I like the personalities they bestowed upon their Gods. It made things more interesting than the boring God most people worship.

+ I believe that religion is a personal thing. An organised system is inherently dangerous, and will warp the beliefs of the members. This has been seen many times. Organised religion is the reason for so many wars they are uncountable.

+ The Bible is not the word of God, it is a work of fiction. It is a childrens story - it uses prose to teach concepts and ideas.


Sources of excellent religious ideas:

Terry Pratchetts Diskworld series
Dogma

*mind has gone blank trying to think of more*

Royal Assassin3 24-Feb-2003 17:43

I believe in God
 
He helps me every day in countless ways. It can be amazing what you can do with God on your side. Give him a chance.

cid12 24-Feb-2003 17:50

Royal Assassin3, so you believe in god...

How does god help you?

Jiema 24-Feb-2003 19:55

Paraphrase: "If you go through life believing in God, and there is no God, then there is no harm done. If you do not, however, and there IS a God..." Pascal.

"For the believers, no proof is needed. For those who do not believe, no proof is enough." Pope John Paul II.

Adrius 24-Feb-2003 20:36

"If you don't care and live your life the way you want, it doesn't fucking matter what happens when you die" - Me, right now...

"I don't need proof of anything but proof that I can live my life not in fear of the unknown and put my efforts into affecting those after me"

If doing that gets me into Heaven, then so what?
Do you nesscessarily have to believe in God to go there? Or will he forgive you because you've led a good life despite that fact that you did it without acknowledging his existance even once? I don't need that reassurance that death is not the end. This life is good enough, why fear death?

Enderwig 24-Feb-2003 20:37

Quote:

(Originally posted by Eimaj)

Paraphrase: "If you go through life believing in God, and there is no God, then there is no harm done. If you do not, however, and there IS a God..." Pascal.

"For the believers, no proof is needed. For those who do not believe, no proof is enough." Pope John Paul II.
Pascal gives a motive to believe but i believing in god is not a choice. Your either a persom who does believe or a person who doesnt. No matter how much you WANT to stop/start beleiving in god you cant, if you believe you believe if you dont you dont (dont get me wrong youre beliefs may change but not through any concious choice). But then i guess that is what the pope is saying

gregorclegane 24-Feb-2003 20:47

pascal's wager is funny. But what if you picked the wrong god and get punished for not only not belieing, but for having what that god see's as the stupidity of blind faith.

gregorclegane 24-Feb-2003 20:47

pascal's wager is funny. But what if you picked the wrong god and get punished for not only not belieing, but for having what that god see's as the stupidity of blind faith.

butchi 24-Feb-2003 20:56

Someone ask: Where did God come from...
If u imagine that this god has created all life....all earth, EVERYTHING, then....I think that he would have the power to live eternal.....
Im christian and there is one big reason...
If I'm right: I win eternal life, the biggest victory ever...
If im wrong then...to bad i have not lost anything...

DavidFF7 24-Feb-2003 20:57

Enderwig is right: Believing in God is not a choice.

I for example, do not believe in God, and no matter how hard I would try, there really isn't a way that I can force myself to believe.

It's just too implausible.

So belief is not a choice, I mean sure I would rather go to Heaven when I die, it is a comforting notion to believe that this will happen, I'm just a lot more skeptical than most people about it since the only reason a concept of heaven exists in the first place is because some old brainwashed men wrote it down in a book.

Crazyfool 24-Feb-2003 21:14

God made me toast for breakfast this morning...

Xanadu666 24-Feb-2003 21:16

An ancient wise man (Voltaire) once said "If god did not exist, it would be necessary for man to invent him." The most religious people have always been the slaves and the down-trodden of humanity. Most humans of olden times, needed a belief of a better place after death to endure the hardships of thier present circumstance.
There have been more people killed in the name of religion than in all of the other wars combined. The belief of god follows no logic, you either believe, or you don't. Anything good that happens is due to the grace of god. Anything bad that happens is the will of god and we aren't meant to understand. Being god has got to be a good gig. You get credit for all the good, and no blame for all the bad.

snorl 24-Feb-2003 21:56

Religion is a guideline of how people choose to lead their life. Most people are born into a religion, very few actually choose their religion, they just stick with the one imposed upon them... Better the devil you know, so to speak, is why most people stick to a religion for right or wrong...


Personally i think the catholic church is a load of bollocks... The main reason for it still exsisting is power and money...Here in Ireland which is prodomiantly catholic
the church lost most of it's political power 25 or so years ago, but it has been only in the last decade that the churches influence has gone and we could see how much or a disguisting unanswerable institution it was and still is..
Religion is dying, and thank fuck is what i say to that...
it will linger on because of it's financal power and it's ability to propagandasise the weak and unfortunate...

You talk about freewill...Telling a child that you must believe in this all powerfull being or you will burn in hell forever and never see your loved ones ever again... is that giving a child free will?... i was 13 before i had the free will to say NO to all the bullshit i was fed since birth...

Another thing, Heaven, personally i would never choose to go there, if it exsists...Human life is about struggleing foward and improving ourselves... happiness is about accomplishments and the rewards which come from it...


This thread is about do we believe in god...
An all powerfull being who has some sort of control or influense over us...
I would like for there to be in one way, but no i prefer the idea that we are what we are, and what we do, right or wrong, is an infinate variable...

Royal Assassin3 25-Feb-2003 02:17

Quote:

(Originally posted by cid12)

Royal Assassin3, so you believe in god...

How does god help you?
The list would be infinately long so I will only list the most important/dramatic ways God helps me.

1. Peace of mind: Belief in God dramatically increases the quality of my life simply because I do believe. I can be certain that no matter what happens to me good or bad I will still experience eternal bliss for eternity. We would see a lot fewer suicides over stress if people really believed in God.

2. God steers me through life: When I look back on my life I see evidence of God working on me. Hardships that I endured always ended up giving me an advantage that I would never of had. While I didnt recognize it at the time I can see what he has done for me and I see what I believe he wants me to do in the future. When I strive for that goal I am blessed greatly and in suprising ways. When I deviate from the goal I find fewer blessings. It is truely remarkable.

3. God blesses me in countless other ways big and small: While blessings are nice they are a notable third on this list. Blessings alone do not make people believe in God. There are many rich athiests and indeed I know many people living in my college in luxury unparalleled in most of the world yet they still reject God. However, it would be foolish not to recognize the giver of my own blessings.

I probably wont convert anyone who decides to visit this thread but people unsure about God should take the opportunity to visit their local church and at least ask some questions. It can make an infinite difference in your life.

JoeT1986 25-Feb-2003 02:41

nah. I am an athiest.

Warlyik 25-Feb-2003 02:48

Wow, this thread has gone on far since I last posted here.. Like 300-400 posts ago.. But I've got something new for people to consider:

If God wanted us to excel in life as best possible with any type of challenges we may face, then why is it that he would not accept someone finding it difficult to believe something written in a book without any supporting evidence? If this God truly wanted us in his kingdom then he'd accept that by giving us freedom of choice, that we should be able to choose what we believe in, and there shouldn't be consequences for it. If this God was so smart, you think he would trust his words on the language of humanity? Seriously.. For being sinners, we're certainly all given lots of privileges.. Especially since we're all born sinners from birth according to some forms of Christianity. Without the freedom of choice, then what is the point in life? It's like living in a totalitarian government system: You either do what they tell you or die. That's pretty much summed up what the Bible says about beliefs. "Believe in me or die". This all-compassionate God would put such restrictions on the questioning of humanity? It is basic instinct to question what is supposed to be true; and that's exactly what a lot of Atheists such as me have done.

Now.. To move on to more recent posts.. And to show how futile it is to show interactions of a God when they can all be explained by what we know in reality.

Quote:

1. Peace of mind: Belief in God dramatically increases the quality of my life simply because I do believe. I can be certain that no matter what happens to me good or bad I will still experience eternal bliss for eternity. We would see a lot fewer suicides over stress if people really believed in God.
Yeah, and what does that prove? Many other religions claim the same exact thing. "Enlightenment" for Bhuddists for instance. You haven't proven any such interaction of a God by posting that.. You're merely speculating by tricking your mind into thinking something heavenly awaits after this life that makes you feel all warm and fuzzy inside. Get a grip.

Quote:

2. God steers me through life: When I look back on my life I see evidence of God working on me. Hardships that I endured always ended up giving me an advantage that I would never of had. While I didnt recognize it at the time I can see what he has done for me and I see what I believe he wants me to do in the future. When I strive for that goal I am blessed greatly and in suprising ways. When I deviate from the goal I find fewer blessings. It is truely remarkable.
He steers you through life? So, you're saying that you don't have a choice on where you go in the future? That everything is set out for you? Wow, might as well not care since your destiny is already chosen for you. Your hardships are your evidence? Nearly everyone goes through hardships one way or another in life. This isn't something that's so special that makes your God believable. I've gone through plenty of hardships, I've excelled as a human being, and I'm Atheist. What exactly is your point through all of this? You haven't shown any conclusive evidence that this God you believe in has ever influenced your life. The only things that are telling you that are the things that have been branded into your mind from some book. Again, get back to reality and get a grip.

Quote:

3. God blesses me in countless other ways big and small: While blessings are nice they are a notable third on this list. Blessings alone do not make people believe in God. There are many rich athiests and indeed I know many people living in my college in luxury unparalleled in most of the world yet they still reject God. However, it would be foolish not to recognize the giver of my own blessings.
Where's your evidence for this one? God blesses you? How? Can you prove that he does? The probabilities in life are endless.. And yet you still fail to realize that just because you believe in a God that he may not be real, and that you're only tricking yourself into thinking he's doing shit that's good for you. As I recall, God was not to interact in this life at all. Some Christians believe that he doesn't interact, and merely set us up here so we can move on through life with free will.. And yet you believe he influences your life. Kind of funny how Christians actually contradict themselves.

I think that's all for now.. I really do hate idiots that think just because they FEEL that someone is watching over them and blessing them and this bullshit that it cannot be explained completely rationally without the use of the words "Jesus", "God", and "Bible."

Jiema 25-Feb-2003 03:13

In retrospect, perhaps you shouldn't ask this on a forum dedicated to games about orcs, elves, and flying birds. I have a Bible that was made "for teens" which warns against playing Dungeons and Dragons... Said "It pretty much is (harmless fun) but you're invoking powers that are anything but Jesus and the saints."

:lol Yeah, I have idols to Boccob and Vecna in my closet, right next to my dress shoes.

Royal Assassin3 25-Feb-2003 05:24

Quote:

(Originally posted by Warlyik)

Wow, this thread has gone on far since I last posted here.. Like 300-400 posts ago.. But I've got something new for people to consider:

If God wanted us to excel in life as best possible with any type of challenges we may face, then why is it that he would not accept someone finding it difficult to believe something written in a book without any supporting evidence? If this God truly wanted us in his kingdom then he'd accept that by giving us freedom of choice, that we should be able to choose what we believe in, and there shouldn't be consequences for it. If this God was so smart, you think he would trust his words on the language of humanity? Seriously.. For being sinners, we're certainly all given lots of privileges.. Especially since we're all born sinners from birth according to some forms of Christianity. Without the freedom of choice, then what is the point in life? It's like living in a totalitarian government system: You either do what they tell you or die. That's pretty much summed up what the Bible says about beliefs. "Believe in me or die". This all-compassionate God would put such restrictions on the questioning of humanity? It is basic instinct to question what is supposed to be true; and that's exactly what a lot of Atheists such as me have done.
This paragraph made no sense... Make a coherent arguement or separate it into paragraphs.


Quote:

(Originally posted by Warlyik)
Yeah, and what does that prove? Many other religions claim the same exact thing. "Enlightenment" for Bhuddists for instance. You haven't proven any such interaction of a God by posting that.. You're merely speculating by tricking your mind into thinking something heavenly awaits after this life that makes you feel all warm and fuzzy inside. Get a grip.
The point of the peace of mind benefit is that no matter what your religion it is better than being an athiest. Even a "rational thinker" like you should recognize that stress is very harmful physicall as well as mentally. Thus even IF you really were tricking yourself into thinking warm fuzzy thoughts religion would bring a definate physiological benefit.

Quote:

(Originally posted by Warlyik)
He steers you through life? So, you're saying that you don't have a choice on where you go in the future? That everything is set out for you? Wow, might as well not care since your destiny is already chosen for you. Your hardships are your evidence? Nearly everyone goes through hardships one way or another in life. This isn't something that's so special that makes your God believable. I've gone through plenty of hardships, I've excelled as a human being, and I'm Atheist. What exactly is your point through all of this? You haven't shown any conclusive evidence that this God you believe in has ever influenced your life. The only things that are telling you that are the things that have been branded into your mind from some book. Again, get back to reality and get a grip.
Once again you go off misinterpretting what I said. Perhaps it would be easier if I used the term God guides me or God gives me a helping hand through difficult times in life. The point was not predestination. The point is that God is there to help me in life. When I set a goal that in the end leads to glorifying God I ALWAYS find the path has already been cleared for me and while I cant "prove" that to you it serves as proof to myself.
For instance, When I was 15 I contracted type 1 diabetes. If I didnt take at least 3 shots every day for the rest of my life I would die. Sounds like a real bummer huh? This event ended up being a major boon for my life. I ended up becoming heavily involved in activities I never would have considered. Volunteering at camps for children with Diabetes.
Eventually I even managed to secure a job at a Diabetes Research center where I found my skills surpassed all expectations. I soon was consulted in the formation of a private business splitting from the publically funded research center. I wrote budgets for the business and helped in it's planning and development phases.
Now the new diabetes research business is underway and is expected to bring in over 4 million dollars pure profit in research contracts within one year. My parents now manage it as the directors (recieving 2 million a year) while I am in college. My father especially needs the income as he lost his job recently.
My experience eventually led to my acceptance into one of the nation's best colleges where I plan to learn what I need to achieve my next goal. None of this would have been possible had God not given me the hardship of an incurable terminal disease.
It is because of Gods guidance that I was able to follow the path I am on right now.

Quote:

(Originally posted by Warlyik)
Where's your evidence for this one? God blesses you? How? Can you prove that he does? The probabilities in life are endless.. And yet you still fail to realize that just because you believe in a God that he may not be real, and that you're only tricking yourself into thinking he's doing shit that's good for you. As I recall, God was not to interact in this life at all. Some Christians believe that he doesn't interact, and merely set us up here so we can move on through life with free will.. And yet you believe he influences your life. Kind of funny how Christians actually contradict themselves.
Different groups of Christians believe different things because the different sects were created by people. People are imperfect and hence will contradict each other. I personally believe that God does indirectly and possibly directly influence all our lives.
As to my proof. I believe the quote from earlier in this thread sums it up nicely:
"For the believers, no proof is needed. For those who do not believe, no proof is enough." Pope John Paul II.

Adrius 25-Feb-2003 05:38

Even if you gave me solid, abosolute, uncontrovertable proof that God exists. If he came right down and talked to me, I still wouldn't believe in him. What about the Buddha? You can have proof he exists, but some still don't believe in him.

God can influence my life all he wants, it still is going to change the fact that I don't believe he exists and I'm going to continue to live my life the way I want it. Religion is created to give people hope, to take away that fear of the unknown after death. Are you scared of death? Don't be. You live this life the way you want, enjoy yourself, and when you die, go with no regrets. You'll only need a God if you haven't done something or haven't "fulfilled" yourself emotionally or spiritually. I don't need a God, because I plan on living my life and fulfilling my expectations of an experienced and diverse life. As long as you satisfy yourself, death doesn't matter. It's not important is it, when you've completed your "life objective", to continue it right? Then why believe in a God for the hope of an afterlife or intervention. Do you believe in yourself as well as your God? Then guide yourself with your actions, don't count on God to do it for you. You have friends, family, supporters, whatever. Do you really need God too to give you the motivation to do something in life? I don't need him, I've got my friends, my family, my passion for a subject and a plan to live my life the way I want.
I don't need a God.

Royal Assassin3 25-Feb-2003 05:45

I know your pain
 
I know the reason why you and many others are so bitterly opposed to God or religion. You deep down recognize that to be an athiest is irrational. This manifests itself as fear. Fear that you are wrong and fear of the consequences of being wrong.
Thus you try to fool yourself into thinking you are right to relieve those fears. Faithful people threaten that small sense of security when they profess belief in God because it renews that doubt.
The most common way to try to restore your delusion, that you are gonna be all right as an athiest, is to try to claim the rational high ground. This fails under inspection however and hence you are reduced to using hate filled words and claims like "since you cant show me proof I wont believe you."
What harm can it do to you to believe in God?

Reasons why Athiesm Irrational:
Gains from Being an Athiest:
None

Gains from Being religious:
Provable gains:
Reduced stress = higher quality of life. This has been proven with scientific studies.

Unprovable gains:
Eternal bliss
Earthly blessings
Earthly guidance

ghdfgsdrgsdfgdr 25-Feb-2003 06:50

Royal Assasin you have it backwards. People who follow a religion are the ones following fear. They fear what will happen to them when the die so they make up a happy little afterlife where everyone is sooo happy and ladededededeeda.

Kind of sounds like heaven is full of Teletubbies to me.

And ever since I quit believing in God my life has gotten better. I have reducued stress and a higher quality of life. The exact opposite of what you said it would do to me.

It seems ironic that you shun science's theories on creation yet embrace them whenever it says religion could be good for you.

ghdfgsdrgsdfgdr 25-Feb-2003 07:08

Assasin I also fail to see what you mean in your previous post before your one on this page while argueing against Warlyik.
Firstly you didnt know how to deal with his first point so you just ignored it. Just like Christianity, which ignores anything that comes into conflict with it.

You say God helped you by giving you diabetes? Oh my I hope God gives me diabetes. That would be so great. God didn't make you get invovled in fundraising you did that yourself. Maybe you should stop giving credit to an imaginary diety and give credit to yourself. You would find it much more rewarding I am sure.

On another note, one thing I fail to see in the bible is that this all compassionate God flooded the whole bloody earth and killed everything except Moses, his family, and a boat full of animals. He seen his creations weren't going his way so he killed them all. Even innocent children who didn't know any better. My... doesn't God sound like the forgiving type.

Another thing I do not get is that if God created all the animals in the first place why would he need Moses to hold them all in his arc. Couldn't he just of thrown out his arm and life would spring forth once again? Lazy bastard too isn't he?

So from my analyzation of the bible I have found that God is:

-vengeful (flood)(numerous others)
-unforgiving (flood)(numerous others)
-lazy (flood)
-unwilling to give up power (Adam and Eve/ Tower of Babel)
-discriminatory (plagues of Egypt/ way he favoured the Isrealites and let them kill everyone else.)

Adrius 25-Feb-2003 07:11

I'm not bitterly opposed to religion first, I realize that some people need that kind of reassurance that they will be alright after death. Maybe I am afraid, but I'm afraid of wasting my life here, on this world. I'm afraid of not making my life worth something to my children, and to those that care. Perhaps there is nothing to los by believing in a God. I could say right now, that I believe in a God, but in my opinion, it's much more irrational than non-belief. If you do believe, you base your life achievements on God, not yourself. It's kind of demoralizing when you didn't get to wherever you were in life when you have to admit that God helped you. It's like having a guardian watching over you, plowing your path ahead of you. I'd much rather carve my own into the world, not have God do it for me.

You also speak of the fear of being wrong. Is that why you are so polarized against non-belief as well?

You think that Athiests are full of worry and we constantly have to reassure ourselves that we are right? What about you? Do you ever question that there is a God? I'm sure there's been an event in your life where you believed for a least a split-second that perhaps there was no God. You are obiviously intelligent enough to make your case for your side, but do you really understand the other?

Here's how I mainly see the majority of religious people. They've either lost their way in life, or have had religion built into their lifestyle, therefore having the innate desire to believe in a God branded into them. Others however, most likely like yourself, take the time to study religion, try to understand it, and decide that they are better off believing. Within yourself there is always a small doubt as you believe that the proof of humanism and the power of the human spirit is much greater than any divine being could imbue it with, but you continue to believe, confident that you will be rewarded, and not punished.

Perhaps we are both afraid, but of different things. I, myself, am afraid of wasting my life here on this planet, so I try as much as possible not to worry about what God might think, or how he might help me, and rely on myself to get through life. You, are afraid of the after, so you have a small, meager belief. One that gives you enough confidence to assure yourself that you will not be punished, and you can live your life the way either you, or the way you might think God wants you to.

I would actually like to know your fundamentals to your religious belief. Just how of a light-beer believer are you? Do you just say there is a God and I believe in him and leave it at that? Or do you have more parts of your life that your God is a part of?

LordNene 25-Feb-2003 12:14

[ I appoligise to the fact that I am of limited vocabluary, and correct use of gramma, so what I say may not make much sense. So dont dismiss purely on this fact]



Ok.....
Already I see agnostics and athiests, and anyother type of veiw trying to move over the other peoples veiw,
by saying; your biased, your wrong, no evidence, etc etc

( above= general statement... probably not correct use of words or gramma.. infact I will read it soon and it wont mean what I wanted it to)

Anyway. My point. Make yourself unbiased, and brought up seeing both sides ( there are more than 2, and they may not be completly balanced in structure. I for one am not going to get into that)
Then u must come to a conclusion that. In all honest opinion ( see opinion, that 'must' make it biased. ( not always true!))
There is no true evidence for God, or the existence of a single being. We can only go on experiance, or feelings of people, 'man is naturally flawed', so we cant be certain of its jevity.
There is absolutly no evidence to say that there is not a God. I will expand on this one, but it is a biased veiw point. God is apparently omnipitant, and all other amazing things. Therefore it is almost imposible to prove it wrong.


Now what I beleive.

If I can not beleive there is a God, nor that there isnt, I simply shall not choose. ( Many people say " how can you not choose, you'll go to hell" or "Idiot look at the facts")
Some people argue I cant live a life without true sins ( origin of true and extend is debatable) without believing in a God, and if you dont beleive in God, you will live in Chaos and be a bigotted twat.
I do not think the above statement is true. I can live without true sins without believing anything, and without bringing anything into Chaos; whilst being very open to whats around me.
I choose not to say that believers or disbalievers are true false or wrong, because I wouldnt be able to back up the statement.


Facts,

Most ( note; most not all) religions were made with the best intentions in the world.
There fundamental beliefs ( when not twisted by man, or taken into radicalism) would serve to be very very great for mankind.

however,
Because of man, religions ( note: I am putting religions and followers, not a God on trial here) have became horrible ( for want of better word) things.
The majority of wars are as a direct result of different religious occurances and beliefs.

out of facts;

If man wasnt man, religions might have worked... as man is man, they cant work, as they will all be flawed.
You say you want proof of a flaw. All religions dont say the same thing, therefore, they all must be wrong in different ways. There is your flaw.

There is no absolute truth.

Saying all this, I am not saying that because they are all flawed, there wrong in every incodence around.
This is where the narrow mindedness comes, when people assume by saying one statement you beleive in something else as well.

Many stories,( or however you want to refer them as) in religious scripture, hold amazing meaning, ( depends on the interpretition)
and can be very benificial, but again others hold little meaning with now, or can not be understood as best as what is might.

Look at them word for word, and believe it as given, you are dangerous.
Look at them word for word, and look in for hiden meanings, and assume those to be true, you are dangerous.
Dismiss them completly, you are dangerous.

( dangerous, not as in will be dangerous, but moreover as in could be dangerous)


Another personal belief:

Forcing belief upon another person is wrong.

However,
failing to listen to another belief is wrong.


This does not mean the imposer should just listen to there own voices, I feel they should listen to the emposee as well....
they should be able to learn just as much from everyone. And therefore expand there own knowledge and understanding, and maybe change there veiws as a result of this understanding, and not as a result of what they were told blind.


We live in a world that we are fed information from birth. We could be in a situation where we have been brought up to in believe anything or that anything is right.
This is a sincer fact; it is very possible, infact incredibly easy, to make someone believe that killing someone else is right, no matter what... that it is a good thing.
Just as it is incredibly easy to teach someone, the opposite.
You have the power to make someone, believe only in a certain way, and be scared or even violent to different impressions on the same thing, or even different events or races.
You also have the power to teach someone to be open, and undiscriminant.
This however is largely impossible. As we are human, and not completly without bias... the bible even supports this.. however I cant remember the quote, ( I belive its on the first page of this thread)


Lots of people I condemn to this feeling.
Humans are naturally flawed, so theres no point in making an effort. War happens because we make it, its because its in our nature, therefore we cant stop it.
Conflict occurs because we were given free will by God, so I will delibratly conflict.

I beg to differ.
Humans are yes I agree naturally flawed. It does not mean a mistake can not be improved upon and rectified. Just because you try one thing, and a bad thing occurs from it, does not mean if you try another the same result will occur.
It's in our nature yes, does that mean its inevitable?


We are limited only because we say that we are.

'I think therefore I am' = a quote largely mis construbed as biggetory and racist.
Really?! is it. How interesting.

It is a very bold statement yes. I agree.
If you take it to mean the wrong thing yes, it is biggetory.


Its a sum up of how we are to be ourselves, what life is, with all its outside anchers and other things..

sorry if you were reading this.. my minds just gone blank. and ive gone on so many tangents I cant keep up...

Ketam 25-Feb-2003 12:20

Quote:

(Originally posted by Capn Owen)
On another note, one thing I fail to see in the bible is that this all compassionate God flooded the whole bloody earth and killed everything except Moses, his family, and a boat full of animals. He seen his creations weren't going his way so he killed them all. Even innocent children who didn't know any better. My... doesn't God sound like the forgiving type.
God is all-compassionate, but that's not all there is to Him, He's also Holy and Righteous... meaning He can't stand sin at ALL... that is stated in the bible, but from what you typed you don't know anything bout that... it wasn't Moses on the ark...

put it another way... God is the ultimate judge... and if the judge of NY city suddenly decided to release all the prisoners on death row just cos he really loved them he wouldn't be much of a judge would he?

and the children were innocent, maybe, although some ppl say the parents sins can be passed down... that question will be answered in heaven if you see them there... well maybe not, I don't know

but because He is love too, that's why He sent Jesus down, I sure hope that's been explained to you b4 (but seeing as you've heard the bout the ark, albeit having remembered it wrong, I guess you HAVE heard it)

Quote:

Another thing I do not get is that if God created all the animals in the first place why would he need Moses to hold them all in his arc. Couldn't he just of thrown out his arm and life would spring forth once again? Lazy bastard too isn't he?
Lazy? He decided to spare all that He could, and you call that lazy? He also didn't want man to get used to God doing everything for them... we have to do stuff too, not just sit back...

Quote:

So from my analyzation of the bible I have found that God is:

-vengeful (flood)(numerous others)
-unforgiving (flood)(numerous others)
-lazy (flood)
-unwilling to give up power (Adam and Eve/ Tower of Babel)
-discriminatory (plagues of Egypt/ way he favoured the Isrealites and let them kill everyone else.)
I've dealth with the first 3, now for the next two...

unwilling to give up power? He's God... the reason for the punishment of Adam and Eve and those ppl at the Tower of Babel was that they had disobeyed.. not from any egomaniacal desire... you way as well say that a parent keeping the car keys from a 6-yr-old is unwillingness to give up power... and keep in mind that the 6-yr-old is much closer in status to the parents then man can every hope to be to God...

discriminatory? He did NOT favour the Isrealites, more than half the Old testament, basically everything besides the time of Joshua and the time of King David God was punishing His own people... the reason they were NOT destroyed utterly was because of a promise He made to Abraham that Abraham's descendants would be numerous... even through all the CRAP God put up with from the Jews he remembered His promise and did not destroy them, they were taken into captivity time and again, but every time the repented God sent them back and gave them their land again...

and most of the stuff that God did to other nations was because of their sin, Egypt for example because the Pharoah would not let Isreal go out (needed slaves I guess)... if Pharoah had let them out there would have been no plagues... same thing for other nations... those that practiced child sacrifice (to Molech I think)... and stuff like that

Quote:

Pirate of the High Seas
Uprising Warrior
I matter but you don't.
I am right and you aren't so be quiet.
I just noticed your sig when I pressed Back to check up on what you wrote... don't know why I bothered answering some1 who is so arrogant... ah well maybe other people would appreaciate these explanations...

LordNene 25-Feb-2003 12:29

I noticed in my prior post I didnt say anything about why people turn to religion...
Im not comfortable with answering that...

but as knowones read my first post yet its above Ketam's post///

thankyou :D

ghdfgsdrgsdfgdr 25-Feb-2003 18:10

In the Tower of Babel God spread everyone out and gave them different languages because he was worried that they would become as powerful as him. Same with Adam and Eve. He threw them out because he was worried that they would eat from the tree of life and live forever and become like him.

What did God do to show all the other tribes and cultures he was there for them? Nothing. He just ran in with his Isrealites and murdered anyone else who got in thier way. There are even passages in the Bible where he tells them to destroy a village and divide the young women for thier own "purposes". Although I don't feel like scanning through that thing and bringing it up.

I find it pretty stupid that God can be responsible for everything good in our world yet when something bad comes along its someone else's fault. Anything in the Bible Chrsitains can't explain is "metaphorical".

Quote:

I just noticed your sig when I pressed Back to check up on what you wrote... don't know why I bothered answering some1 who is so arrogant... ah well maybe other people would appreaciate these explanations...
That seems like a pretty snotnosed insult from a "devot" Christain. Since when does anyone take a person's god dam signature seriously.

Polemos Kurios 25-Feb-2003 18:40

I have a couple of thoughts...

First -
There is no such thing as an atheist. :)

Scripture says that God has implanted the knowledge of Himself on the hearts of all humankind (Rom 1 : 19). The knowledge of His eternal gaze is with all of us.

The truth of God and the knowledge of His existence is evident within everyone and in all creation. There is simply no where to run from Him. Therefore, all who supress this knowledge and deceive themselves are without excuse, and this is why God's judgment is just. That is the argument Paul sets forth in the first chapter of Romans.

I believe in God, but I don't believe in atheists.


Second -
There is much talk of faith vs. reason. In our contemporary post modern era, philosophy has shown that there is no such thing as a presuppositionless system of thought. Naturalists can "claim" reason as the gate through which all knowledge must enter, but they can't prove it. I'm not saying that we shouldn't test everything by reason. In fact, I think we should. What I am saying though is that it is impossible to prove the reasonability of reason, since to do so, you'd have to use reason. The use of reason to prove the validity of reason is a circular argument. Now that's not necessarily a problem as long as the naturalist admits that at the BASE of his system is a simple UNPROVEN assumption - reason is reliable.

The critique of this assertion, of course, is that it does not comport with the naturalist belief that the capacity for rationality has immerged from irrationality (by way of the the evolution of the mind). Perhaps it did, but is it rational to trust the product of irrationality? I think not. And, if you do trust it, then how do you know it's trustworthy?

The Christian avoids this problem. He too has a faith claim at the base of His system of thought. Because no human being is omniscient, everyone has to have unproven assumptions. The Christian's unproven assumption is that the God of the Bible exists. If this proposition is granted for the sake of argument, then certain knowledge becomes possible because an omniscient God has revealed it in His Word. He reasons with us in His Word, proving the reliability of reason. In fact, He reveals an entire world and life view, which, if accepted, turns out to make sense of everything.

Faith, therefore, does not rest on reason, but reason rests on faith. We must believe in order to understand.

So, if you claim to be an atheist, why should you believe? You should believe simply because God commands it, and because this command to believe comports with His revelation of Himself inside and outside of you. But, if you are determined not to believe, then no argument will persuade you. In fact, since reason rests on faith, no "argument" CAN ultimately persuade you.

Believe, because God says to believe. His law condemns you, but the gospel promises to heal the wound opened by the law. He offers a relationship to you. Will you have Him? Do you see that right now you are a rebel? Do you understand that you shake your fist in the face of an omnipotent and holy being? Cease striving with Him and He will forgive. Receive GRACE and love, and run into the arms of Christ which are stretched wide open and are ready to receive you if you will only go to Him. He will not turn you away if you come. It is not too late. The Bible says He is a rewarder of those who dilligently seek Him. Do you want Him? If you do, then He is yours. But you must want Him.

Grace and Peace.

lmc 25-Feb-2003 20:31

Re: I know your pain
 
Quote:

(Originally posted by Royal Assassin3)

I know the reason why you and many others are so bitterly opposed to God or religion. You deep down recognize that to be an athiest is irrational. This manifests itself as fear. Fear that you are wrong and fear of the consequences of being wrong.
Thus you try to fool yourself into thinking you are right to relieve those fears. Faithful people threaten that small sense of security when they profess belief in God because it renews that doubt.
The most common way to try to restore your delusion, that you are gonna be all right as an athiest, is to try to claim the rational high ground. This fails under inspection however and hence you are reduced to using hate filled words and claims like "since you cant show me proof I wont believe you."
What harm can it do to you to believe in God?

You arrogant, patronising, self righteous, ignorant, small minded person (wasn't going to say 'person', but decided to keep it factual instead of throwing insults!).

Don't throw your own insecurities onto others. Make your own point, if you have one, without demeaning the beliefs of others.

I don't regard myself as an atheist, but it's just as valid a belief system as Christianity, Islam, Buddhism, Rastafarianism, Confucionism or any other. Your comments show a complete inability (or unwillingness)to comprehend a point of view different from your own.

I was going to say more, but my anger has receded and been replaced with pity.

Adrius 25-Feb-2003 20:40

Precisely my point.
If he wants to argue, then argue without throwing your pity on me. I don't need your pity, or your God's pity. You can pity me all you want, but I'm not going to change. He is the insecure one. Despite how you believe your "open-minded" you still close yourself off to any idea that maybe we're right and your wrong. That is the fundamental of all religion. As a Athiest, I can accept the beliefs of religion and accept it as a part of my life. They can believe it, but it won't change anything but their levels of stress and their lifestyle. Organized religion blatently enforces itself as being the ONLY belief and all others are wrong. I believe I could be wrong, but do religious individuals believe they could be wrong? I want to hear that once from a Christian.
"I could be wrong"
I just want to hear it once.

Royal Assassin3 25-Feb-2003 21:31

Quote:

(Originally posted by lmc)

You arrogant, patronising, self righteous, ignorant, small minded person (wasn't going to say 'person', but decided to keep it factual instead of throwing insults!).
Oh, well since you called me a "person" I guess it isnt an insult to also call me "arrogant, patronising, self righteous, ignorant" and "small minded". You only prove me correct by using such insults as your arguement against God.

Quote:

(Originally posted by lmc)
Don't throw your own insecurities onto others. Make your own point, if you have one, without demeaning the beliefs of others.

I don't regard myself as an atheist, but it's just as valid a belief system as Christianity, Islam, Buddhism, Rastafarianism, Confucionism or any other. Your comments show a complete inability (or unwillingness)to comprehend a point of view different from your own.

I was going to say more, but my anger has receded and been replaced with pity.
You should examine your own life because you sound exactly like the irrational and defensive athiests I described. What few points you make in your rant prove you didnt even bother reading my article.

Quote:

(Originally posted by lmc)
"Your comments show a complete inability (or unwillingness)to comprehend a point of view different from your own."
Quote:

(Originally posted by Royal_Assassin3)
The point of the peace of mind benefit is that no matter what your religion it is better than being an athiest.
My article showed support for any religion except athiesm which proves your accusation as completely false. Just because I personally believe in God doesnt mean I am intolerant. Indeed I am more tolerant of you athiests than you are of me, because you immediately respond with hate and anger when someone expresses their love for God.

Royal Assassin3 25-Feb-2003 21:41

Quote:

(Originally posted by Tassadar V)

Precisely my point.
If he wants to argue, then argue without throwing your pity on me. I don't need your pity, or your God's pity. You can pity me all you want, but I'm not going to change. He is the insecure one. Despite how you believe your "open-minded" you still close yourself off to any idea that maybe we're right and your wrong. That is the fundamental of all religion. As a Athiest, I can accept the beliefs of religion and accept it as a part of my life. They can believe it, but it won't change anything but their levels of stress and their lifestyle. Organized religion blatently enforces itself as being the ONLY belief and all others are wrong. I believe I could be wrong, but do religious individuals believe they could be wrong? I want to hear that once from a Christian.
"I could be wrong"
I just want to hear it once.
That is exactly what I am talking about. You realize that "you could be wrong." In order to feel more secure you feel the need to make Christians say they might be wrong. You then experience annoyance when someone doesnt do that because it increases your feelings of doubt and thus increases your anxiety.

Warlyik 25-Feb-2003 21:51

Quote:

My article showed support for any religion except athiesm which proves your accusation as completely false. Just because I personally believe in God doesnt mean I am intolerant. Indeed I am more tolerant of you athiests than you are of me, because you immediately respond with hate and anger when someone expresses their love for God.
Since you didn't understand my last posts I really wonder why I'm responding to your ignorant posts again.. You seemed to not actually understand me last time.. And since I've been having troubles logging in recently and checking up in here, this is a perfect opportunity to respond once more to your inability to comprehend other people's points of views. I've already heard nearly every Christian's point of view, and each one can be determined by a few simple words if it has any real supporting EVIDENCE, and yes, the keyword there is EVIDENCE. Faith means absolutely nothing to me. Don't go blabbing about faith because it really has no relevency to me.

If you weren't ignorant then you'd know how to spell Atheist or Atheism. Afterall, we've got so many other intelligent people here that actually know how to spell. Your article showed support of religion? Since when? I have seen no support whatsoever that religion is true. None, Nada, Zip. It's just that the fact is that there is NO supporting evidence whatsoever at all for your religious beliefs. Accept that for once and stop being an arrogant Christian nincompoop.

Now, to move on to bigger fish.

Quote:

There is no such thing as an atheist.

Scripture says that God has implanted the knowledge of Himself on the hearts of all humankind (Rom 1 : 19). The knowledge of His eternal gaze is with all of us.

The truth of God and the knowledge of His existence is evident within everyone and in all creation. There is simply no where to run from Him. Therefore, all who supress this knowledge and deceive themselves are without excuse, and this is why God's judgment is just. That is the argument Paul sets forth in the first chapter of Romans.

I believe in God, but I don't believe in atheists.
Here's your first flaw: Assuming the Bible is true. That's the biggest flaw of them all. It is also the most common of them all. Funny you fell into that trap of stupidity. :) You thought you had it made and I found out a flaw in your post right off from the start. Wow, makes you feel really smart now, doesn't it? This degrades your entire first part of your post, and thus makes any of the emphasizing points irrelevent. On to the next!

Quote:

Second -
There is much talk of faith vs. reason. In our contemporary post modern era, philosophy has shown that there is no such thing as a presuppositionless system of thought. Naturalists can "claim" reason as the gate through which all knowledge must enter, but they can't prove it. I'm not saying that we shouldn't test everything by reason. In fact, I think we should. What I am saying though is that it is impossible to prove the reasonability of reason, since to do so, you'd have to use reason. The use of reason to prove the validity of reason is a circular argument. Now that's not necessarily a problem as long as the naturalist admits that at the BASE of his system is a simple UNPROVEN assumption - reason is reliable.
As I recall, I don't hold reason above everything. I hold truth above all. Truth must be sought for in order to shed light into that which confuses us and makes us question our world. Whoever said that reason is the all-determining factor is an idiot, because reason is never necessarily truthful. Reason may sound great, but some of the best reasoning can also be quite false. This really has nothing to do with an Atheist's system of acknowledgment.

Quote:

The Christian avoids this problem. He too has a faith claim at the base of His system of thought. Because no human being is omniscient, everyone has to have unproven assumptions. The Christian's unproven assumption is that the God of the Bible exists. If this proposition is granted for the sake of argument, then certain knowledge becomes possible because an omniscient God has revealed it in His Word. He reasons with us in His Word, proving the reliability of reason. In fact, He reveals an entire world and life view, which, if accepted, turns out to make sense of everything.
You base your beliefs on faith; something that cannot be proven. As said before, you actually believe there is an omnicient being out there somewhere according to the Bible. But as I pointed out, until proven to be truth, the Bible is irrelevent and whatever is within it is also irrelevent. His Word, blah blah blah. Again, stop with the Bible bullshit. Without the existence of an omnicient being, then how can you support your little theory there? Of course not everyone is correct, but most humans try to do their best, or atleast reasonable, rational people, to understand what's around them. And trust me, The Bible does not make sense of everything. If it did, I wouldn't be sitting here typing to as an Atheist on why you're wrong.

Quote:

Faith, therefore, does not rest on reason, but reason rests on faith. We must believe in order to understand.
Wrong. Faith rests on the inability to support themselves with facts. Reasoning has atleast some bit of fact to support it. Faith became what it is through spoken words; thus language created faith, and also reason.

Quote:

So, if you claim to be an atheist, why should you believe? You should believe simply because God commands it, and because this command to believe comports with His revelation of Himself inside and outside of you. But, if you are determined not to believe, then no argument will persuade you. In fact, since reason rests on faith, no "argument" CAN ultimately persuade you.
Did you not read my little post about the analogy of a Totalitarian Government system? If not, do so, it's in my last post on the page before this one. There is no God in me or outside of me. There is no God that is relevent to the dimension I exist in. There is no God that is relative to where I am sitting at this very moment. Again, you're resting assumptions on the fact that the Bible may be true, which is circular reasoning.

Quote:

Believe, because God says to believe. His law condemns you, but the gospel promises to heal the wound opened by the law. He offers a relationship to you. Will you have Him? Do you see that right now you are a rebel? Do you understand that you shake your fist in the face of an omnipotent and holy being? Cease striving with Him and He will forgive. Receive GRACE and love, and run into the arms of Christ which are stretched wide open and are ready to receive you if you will only go to Him. He will not turn you away if you come. It is not too late. The Bible says He is a rewarder of those who dilligently seek Him. Do you want Him? If you do, then He is yours. But you must want Him.
God says to believe? Has he spoken personally to you? Again, circular reasoning. Stop with the bullshit. :) He has never offered any type of relationship to me, has he to you? You obviously have tricked yourself that he speaks to you in some way.. That's absolutely amazing! You belong in a mental hospital :) I'd also rather not run into the arms of those that wish to rape me in the ass.. Such as those Catholic Priests. I'd much rather have a female as a God/Lord Savior :D

In conclusion, I've refuted everything that you've said pretty much.. Nothing left to do but laugh.

Royal Assassin3 25-Feb-2003 23:30

Warlyik, your arguement is the same as so many other atheists. Step one - make personal attacks. Step two - claim that "there is no proof". Both of your methods have been shown to be wrong in countless posts and yet you still stubbornly latch on to your atheism. I hope one day you will pull the wool off your head and pull your fingers out of your ears. It will be good for your life and soul.

ghdfgsdrgsdfgdr 25-Feb-2003 23:38

Quote:

Warlyik, your arguement is the same as so many other atheists. Step one - make personal attacks. Step two - claim that "there is no proof". Both of your methods have been shown to be wrong in countless posts and yet you still stubbornly latch on to your atheism. I hope one day you will pull the wool off your head and pull your fingers out of your ears. It will be good for your life and soul.
Nice try. You know he has won the arguement and you don't know what to do so you insult him. The same thing you were getting mad at him for.

Ketam 26-Feb-2003 00:04

Quote:

(Originally posted by Capn Owen)

In the Tower of Babel God spread everyone out and gave them different languages because he was worried that they would become as powerful as him. Same with Adam and Eve. He threw them out because he was worried that they would eat from the tree of life and live forever and become like him.

What did God do to show all the other tribes and cultures he was there for them? Nothing. He just ran in with his Isrealites and murdered anyone else who got in thier way. There are even passages in the Bible where he tells them to destroy a village and divide the young women for thier own "purposes". Although I don't feel like scanning through that thing and bringing it up.

I find it pretty stupid that God can be responsible for everything good in our world yet when something bad comes along its someone else's fault. Anything in the Bible Chrsitains can't explain is "metaphorical".
didn't you actually read what I posted? oh wait yes you are always right...

do you really think a mud tower like the tower of Babel was would have made man the same as God... the men there obviously did, but that was nonsense... the height was barely close to a large apartment block... what got God mad was their MOTIVATION... the arrogance that they thought they could get close to God on their own strength and account...

and bout Adam and Eve, it was because of their disobediance... if they had been allowed to eat from the tree of life and live forever God would have had to destroy them as He destroyed Satan, by sending them out of His presence forever... so instead He banished them, knowing that at least this way there was a chance some of them could return


Quote:

That seems like a pretty snotnosed insult from a "devot" Christain. Since when does anyone take a person's god dam signature seriously.
insult? I was just mentioning that your sig shows total arrogance, which is reinforced in your posts... snotnosed insult eh... then what was I supposed to think... oh wait you want me not to take you seriously? say so then... if you WANT to be taken seriously then why put such nonsense in a sig?

lmc 26-Feb-2003 20:03

Quote:

(Originally posted by Royal Assassin3)

Oh, well since you called me a "person" I guess it isnt an insult to also call me "arrogant, patronising, self righteous, ignorant" and "small minded". You only prove me correct by using such insults as your arguement against God.
You should examine your own life because you sound exactly like the irrational and defensive athiests I described. What few points you make in your rant prove you didnt even bother reading my article.
My article showed support for any religion except athiesm which proves your accusation as completely false. Just because I personally believe in God doesnt mean I am intolerant. Indeed I am more tolerant of you athiests than you are of me, because you immediately respond with hate and anger when someone expresses their love for God.
I suggest you read those posts again. Try to understand them this time. You'll see I didn't say I was an atheist and that the only thing I have shown intolerance for is your attitude towards someone expressing a perfectly rational belief system. I don't know why I bother...

yourdoom 26-Feb-2003 22:43

Quote:

(Originally posted by Ketam)

God is all-compassionate, but that's not all there is to Him, He's also Holy and Righteous... meaning He can't stand sin at ALL... that is stated in the bible, but from what you typed you don't know anything bout that... it wasn't Moses on the ark...

put it another way... God is the ultimate judge... and if the judge of NY city suddenly decided to release all the prisoners on death row just cos he really loved them he wouldn't be much of a judge would he?

and the children were innocent, maybe, although some ppl say the parents sins can be passed down... that question will be answered in heaven if you see them there... well maybe not, I don't know

but because He is love too, that's why He sent Jesus down, I sure hope that's been explained to you b4 (but seeing as you've heard the bout the ark, albeit having remembered it wrong, I guess you HAVE heard it)



Lazy? He decided to spare all that He could, and you call that lazy? He also didn't want man to get used to God doing everything for them... we have to do stuff too, not just sit back...



I've dealth with the first 3, now for the next two...

unwilling to give up power? He's God... the reason for the punishment of Adam and Eve and those ppl at the Tower of Babel was that they had disobeyed.. not from any egomaniacal desire... you way as well say that a parent keeping the car keys from a 6-yr-old is unwillingness to give up power... and keep in mind that the 6-yr-old is much closer in status to the parents then man can every hope to be to God...

discriminatory? He did NOT favour the Isrealites, more than half the Old testament, basically everything besides the time of Joshua and the time of King David God was punishing His own people... the reason they were NOT destroyed utterly was because of a promise He made to Abraham that Abraham's descendants would be numerous... even through all the CRAP God put up with from the Jews he remembered His promise and did not destroy them, they were taken into captivity time and again, but every time the repented God sent them back and gave them their land again...

and most of the stuff that God did to other nations was because of their sin, Egypt for example because the Pharoah would not let Isreal go out (needed slaves I guess)... if Pharoah had let them out there would have been no plagues... same thing for other nations... those that practiced child sacrifice (to Molech I think)... and stuff like that



I just noticed your sig when I pressed Back to check up on what you wrote... don't know why I bothered answering some1 who is so arrogant... ah well maybe other people would appreaciate these explanations...
What gives you the power to SPEAK FOR GOD?

clmora 26-Feb-2003 23:19

Quote:

(Originally posted by takama)

religion is vital bullshit that a society cant live without. i dont believe it, because its bullshit, but i dont pick on the believers, because its important to keep a society running. plus i shouldnt pick on people just because of what they believe, oh wait i forgot christians hate atheists anyway.

i stopped believing in god, or anything, because my sunday teacher told me that a rich man cant really go to heaven. its so obvious that a guy made up this religion to gain the support of the peasents.. also how can god love everyone, and then have christians enslave blacks, massicre the indians, and have crusades (which killed so many innocents). god doesnt love everyone. gog wants you to join the army. god wants you to die for god, and country. atheists just dont have that encouragment..only religious people have the beliefs to be willing to pointlessly die in a war


One question I have for this person..

What do you think about a doctor who tells their patients not to smoke, because it has been linked to increase risk of lung disease, and for pregnant women higher risk of birth defects ?? However, this doctor chooses to smoke anyways.. You'll prolly think that he/she's a hypocrit right, or at the minimum lacks self-control of some type not to be able to follow his own advice..

However, despite whatever you may think of him he's 100% RIGHT. Smoking has been linked to lung disease, and higher risk of birth defects..

Point being.. You can't automatically dismiss a point of view due to human examples, and human mistakes.. Was it wrong to kill millions of indians, and enslave blacks? Sure it was, but don't let the rhecteric that designed to fool the masses let you fall into the same trap.. As a decedent of the Conquistadores(Puerto Rican.) I can confirm to you that such acts never had their roots in the will of God, if there could be said to be such a thing. For all the exaples you just named had ABSOLUELTY NOTHING TO DO WITH GOD.. In fact, it had everything to do with love of money, land, greed, power, and a cheap source of labor slaves. Anymore than Lincoln truly believed blacks were equal to whites, and therfore freed them as a humanitarian.. It's way more complicated then the rhetoric used. It was just rhetoric spilled out to the blind who had some kinda imbred fear of God.

Nevertheless, you can't dismiss the existance of God by bad examples, anymore than you can dismiss the advice of a smoking doctor. It's a hallow argument at best and does nothing to answer the question of rather or not there is a God. Surely, evil people who said they believed in God existed though Jesus explicitly warned all to give to anyone who has need, and when someone strikes you turn the other cheek, not to mention "THOU SHALL NOT KILL." Those evil tyrants were not even following their own said belief system, which is written in plain language in the bible. The basic doctrine of the Christian faith.

As for the reliability of the bible I will discuss on another thread..

Note: I no longer call myself a Christian, and have choosen instead to live a life of revelry, but it doesn't make the existence of God more plausible or less so. So don't come at me with this Holy Roller crap, those days are over..

clmora 26-Feb-2003 23:45

Quote:

(Originally posted by nimrod)

I dont belive in god

but something about christianity bothered me since sunday in med-evil class when my teacher told us the whole christ story (1st time I know what it is not just parts)

when jesus (while he was crucified) said "oh god why have you left me?" isnt he comitting a sin?
thinking that god has left him

Good Question! and I will be happy to answer that question, but first let's examine what that statement means..

First of all, the bible especially the New testament where one finds the story of Jesus life can basically be summed up in a few sentences....

Jesus the savior of man is sent from heaven to Earth to protect men from themselves, and potentially save their souls.. As a matter of fact his words were so profound, and so much against the natural instinct of man billions study his words thousands of years later...

Statements like: "Give to anyone who has need... Love don't hate.. Anyone who lives by the sword shall die by the sword...If someone strikes you, turn away passively..Violence only begets violence.. Feed the poor, love the unlovable.."

As a matter of fact his words were so profound and devisive he angers the SELF-RIGHTEOUS, and they find false irrelevant reasons to crucify him out of pure envy.. As a matter of fact, when it's time for him to be killed his best friend cowardly denies that he ever knew him, and his other friend betrays him and leads his killers straight to him..

And now we arrive at your question... Sorry, I had to do basic background history to get everybody on the same page.. As the supposed Messiah of the Christian faith is shamefully hanging on the cross in total angony, and on the verge of death he speaks the words, "Father why have you forsaken me?" Now, I'm sorry that I can not at this point answer your question with total certainty as to whether or not this is a sin for I am not God. However, examine what is being written here by the creators of the Christian faith.. The very ones who wrote the bible were the very ones who betrayed, and denied they ever knew this man as he lay on the verge of death.
If I was to make up a false story that would inspire millions to follow my false doctrine I certainly would never write, this stuff as most men wouldn't. My story would have included a conqueror, a destroyer of all that lay in his wake.. Stomping on his enemies, and putting to rest all resistence, but the bible tells a story of a man at his weakest that was beat till the point of death, and left to hang out for public display as all spat on him. How can so many people have flat hatred for a man that loved the poor, healed the sick, and stood up against the powerful self-righteous of the till he was falsely convicted and sentenced to death.. Why so much hatred for an innocent man, I have no ideal, but though I no longer prescribe to the Christian faith myself. And don't for a second tell me many people don't hate Jesus, for that is ludicrous.. Just listen to any Tool lyrics, my favorite band by the way.. Sorry this was so long..

Warlyik 26-Feb-2003 23:53

Quote:

One question I have for this person..

What do you think about a doctor who tells their patients not to smoke, because it has been linked to increase risk of lung disease, and for pregnant women higher risk of birth defects ?? However, this doctor chooses to smoke anyways.. You'll prolly think that he/she's a hypocrit right, or at the minimum lacks self-control of some type not to be able to follow his own advice..

However, despite whatever you may think of him he's 100% RIGHT. Smoking has been linked to lung disease, and higher risk of birth defects..
First off, the Doctor is most-likely addicted, as is what occurs to most people when it's near too late.. Sure, you can try and get help, but addiction is a sickness.. It's not something that is easily cured. It takes an incredible amount of will-power in some cases, and changes from person to person, just as every person's brain performs differently than another's, which affects what type of will-power they may have to overcome obstacles.

That doesn't however, explain why an omnicient being would go against his own principles, killing off people, just because he has the power to do so. I think that the Crusades were infact, a replica of what God has actually done. He's wiped off entire civilizations on this planet, and yet Christians still actually believe in such hypocrisy? If he's so perfect, then he'd not have done any of these things. The Crusades cannot be justified by any means.. They were in very much related to religion, and because of that intolerance that Christians STILL have today it is not surprising that they massacred so many.

Quote:

Nevertheless, you can't dismiss the existance of God by bad examples, anymore than you can dismiss the advice of a smoking doctor. It's a hallow argument at best and does nothing to answer the question of rather or not there is a God. Surely, evil people who said they believed in God existed though Jesus explicitly warned all to give to anyone who has need, and when someone strikes you turn the other cheek, not to mention "THOU SHALL NOT KILL." Those evil tyrants were not even following their own said belief system, which is written in plain language in the bible. The basic doctrine of the Christian faith.
I can dismiss the existence of God through contradictions within the Bible, and misinterpretations by the so-called 100% right Christianity. If one thing is considered a metaphor and another truth, and one thing false and another truth, then why not all false? There is no supporting evidence, but plenty of things against it.. That heavily outweighs what Christians think they know. I'm not going to explain to you that there is no true "right and wrong" or "good and evil" as I've already done that in another thread. It's all based on the society we live in. Judging someone based on actions but determined by your own morals and beliefs is actively done, however these things may not be considered as such if the tides were turned. An infinite amount of probability in this universe and this is what we come out with..

Quote:

As for the reliability of the bible I will discuss on another thread..
I don't know how you can discuss reliability of the Bible when there is none.. Unless you want to discuss that there is absolutely no supporting evidence or anything to conclude the reliability of the Bible, and in that case, go ahead.

But anyways.. I'd like to thank Capn Owen for defending me there so I didn't have to waste time explaining that stuff before and the accusations of me insulting people and supposedly hurting their feelings.. Pity on them.

And now for some more things to consider:

Christians believe without a doubt there is a God.. And yet.. Here's a question they have yet to answer; "Riddle Me This: If God Created The Universe, Who Created God?" When you are able to answer that question effectively then you'll be able to turn my view.. Until then, keep fishing. But Of Course, this is akin to the theory of how the universe formed around scientific views.. I have something that might be possibility.

Suppose that in the beginning.. There was absolutely nothing. No matter, no elements, nothing at all. However, this doesn't rule out that there could have been laws and properties that concerned the nothingness that would not be measurable in our time.. For instance, there may have been a law at that time that could have been as such: "Through nothingness, there must be something to replace it." This would even constitute a "Big Bang Theory" however not revolving around something such as a compact sphere of such density that the entire universe formed.. But that in a single moment of time, perhaps just miliseconds through this nothingness, that sprung forth a lot of something. It's kind of far-fetched, but if you consider that laws we know not of today could have existed through that small amount of time, then it COULD be possible.

Now, many people say a LOT of the Bible is metaphor.. I actually think nearly ALL of it is metaphor, except for some of the history-related things that did not concern the religion. Now, consider that perhaps those who wrote it meant that "God" may have actually been the "Universe" itself. A metaphor that would actually make sense.. Because logically then that would spring forth from the universe is life.. Or perhaps that God was that "Complete Nothingness" that the universe sprung forth from.. These ideas seem most plausible to me.. However some people may not be so easily persuaded into thinking beyond the borders of what we supposedly know. We have much yet to learn about this universe we live in, perhaps in time the answers will unfold to us.

QPrincess 27-Feb-2003 00:45

I know there is a God. I could explain why but then you would think I was a nut case and not contemplate anything else I ever had to say. My religion of choice is Christianity, probably because of the region I live in.

It is sad how many people have been turned away from knowing God because of the ignorance of some half-wit Sunday School Teacher. You have your whole life to find out for yourself just what is in the Bible, and whether or not you believe it. In 80 years of life couldn't you possibly spare a few weeks to read something that could possibly make you eternal. You wouldn't let someones else's ignorance or hypocracy keep you from any other knowledge. So why do so many use it as an excuse to keep away from this?

Some of you may say, well I know all about that and think it is crap. That is fine. I wish you would believe it. As as a Christian, it is my main job to befriend you, agnostics, athiests, satanist, whatever, in the hope that you would want what is in me.

Warlyik 27-Feb-2003 00:58

Quote:

I know there is a God. I could explain why but then you would think I was a nut case and not contemplate anything else I ever had to say. My religion of choice is Christianity, probably because of the region I live in.
You KNOW there is a God, do you? If it was that simple, there wouldn't be atheists and agnostics, etc, now would there be? I really think that you're reluctant to explain because you cannot explain in terms that anyone with some rational sense of truth can understand. You cannot possibly prove the existence of God, because it's been tried repeatedly in the past, and to no avail. I don't see where you're so special from everyone else who's tried to persuade me, and failed miserably because of simple mistakes in their logic.

Quote:

It is sad how many people have been turned away from knowing God because of the ignorance of some half-wit Sunday School Teacher. You have your whole life to find out for yourself just what is in the Bible, and whether or not you believe it. In 80 years of life couldn't you possibly spare a few weeks to read something that could possibly make you eternal. You wouldn't let someones else's ignorance or hypocracy keep you from any other knowledge. So why do so many use it as an excuse to keep away from this?
What basis do you have to say that they are ignorant? Perhaps you are really the one who is ignorant, and should learn about other cultures and other belief systems before choosing what you believe in. Trust me, there's other cultures besides the one you live in. Broaden your mind for once. It doesn't take a lifetime to figure out what the Bible is about. It can be summed up in a few paragraphs if need be. I've not read every bit of it, but I have read most of it before, and of my understanding I cannot possibly come to the conclusion that there is a God. Trust me, it takes more than a book to persuade someone that questions the world around them. Basic human instinct is to question what some would believe is right, if there is basis for the questioning.. And in this case, there is plenty, as many others such as me have pointed out so dilligently for you. Someone else's hypocrisy? Look, your "Perfect Omnicient" God is a hypocrite. Read the Bible over if you need to, maybe you'll see that. Then you'll see how much of a hypocrite you are as well. I think I've said enough about this.

ShadowPreyXIV 27-Feb-2003 02:40

I honestly can't see how you guys can believe in a christian god... i mean, maybe there is a god (SOMETHING had to make us, whether it was the forces of nature, or an actual being, thats actually what i define as "GOD"). But seriously, there have been hundreds of religions since the beginning of man. Why is this christian god the right one? I mean, why aren't the muslims right? Why aren't the hindi people right? What drives you to believe so much in a book without any proof whatsoever. Its so hypocritical of god to make a being thats means of survival is to reason with his/her environment then throw a book in their face saying believe all this or you will burn in hell for eternity.

Its time for people to realize that they don't need a book to cling on to have a reason to live, i think thats why christians are christians and the same with anyone who worships a god. They want a reason to live, they don't realize that life is pretty much pointless. Its time for us to move past this, and realize the true meaning behind all this.

Don't think i'm bashing the bible or religions in general because i think they are great. They infuse people with morals, especially the fearful and otherwise immoral. Religon has helped civilize mankind and give them a reason to work to perfection...

ghdfgsdrgsdfgdr 27-Feb-2003 05:22

Assasin if you wondered why we were so "defensive" and "fearful as you put (it seems like YOU are the one who is "defensive" and "fearful") it is because many atheists have had Christian trying to ram the Bible down thier throats constantly. I know I have. I was a Lutheran for most of my life and have been baptized, confirmed, and the whole lot. I have had Christians with less knowledge than me of thier religion trying to convert me all the time. But I do live outside a small rural town with around a 99.9 % of Christains. There is 800 people and 9 churches. All of them very rich (some have millions of dollars). I only know of one other atheist who happens to be my best friend. You can imagine what it would be like living in a place like this as an atheist. Its funny becuase all thier arguements are so half-assed.

clmora 27-Feb-2003 20:03

Alright, perfect questions I love a debate based on reason, and facts rather than name calling.. It is my sincere belief that many agnostics, and atheists have total intectual contempt for Christians based on their own irrational sense of a very true inferiority complex. It makes many few all warm and tingly inside if the can dismiss a whole segment or those who prescribe to a certain theological belief system as dimwits or mentally handicap, blind, etc. Though I know for a fact many so called Christians believe the exact same thing about atheists that they are just sturpid or "ignorant."

I believe the only ignorance involved in such a debate is an unwilliness to even consider the other side, and pridefully arrogantly spin things off by saying "he's wrong, I'm right...He's stupid for what he believes, for he/she's not as intelligent or as enlightened as myself for they do not believe to be what I view as simple truths(self convinced)

The only reason why I go through pains to explain such a point is to underscore my point that doctrines and belief systems can't be dismissed or provn true by human examples and historical examples of those who said the prescribed to such views... People are unrealable and will almost in all cases let you down.. That's why the Christian faith is so allluring it's basically about a man who lived a perfect life, and loved humanity and was unmercifully sentenced to die a horrible death. Nonetheless, he's dead it's over, Chirst will never truly disappoin those who believe in him, 'cause he lived and died a perfect life.. Therefore, he can disappoint those who believe in him he was successful in his endeavors and intentions, though many of his followers were horrible examples and missed the mark entirely.. As was always fortold in the very beginning of Jesus's life..His followers almost always did the wrong thing, and were constantly a source of disappointment...

ghdfgsdrgsdfgdr 27-Feb-2003 20:11

clmora you seem to believe that all atheists don't know anything about Christianity. That in itself is ingorant. A large amount of atheists that I know are former Christians who for once opened thier minds to everyone else's beliefs then seen how what Chrisitianity really is.

One question I have is why do you follow God? Because he created you? Then if that is so do you go and worship your parents each day also?

clmora 27-Feb-2003 20:26

Quote:

(Originally posted by Warlyik)

First off, the Doctor is most-likely addicted, as is what occurs to most people when it's near too late.. Sure, you can try and get help, but addiction is a sickness.. It's not something that is easily cured. It takes an incredible amount of will-power in some cases, and changes from person to person, just as every person's brain performs differently than another's, which affects what type of will-power they may have to overcome obstacles.

That doesn't however, explain why an omnicient being would go against his own principles, killing off people, just because he has the power to do so. I think that the Crusades were infact, a replica of what God has actually done. He's wiped off entire civilizations on this planet, and yet Christians still actually believe in such hypocrisy? If he's so perfect, then he'd not have done any of these things. The Crusades cannot be justified by any means.. They were in very much related to religion, and because of that intolerance that Christians STILL have today it is not surprising that they massacred so many.



I can dismiss the existence of God through contradictions within the Bible, and misinterpretations by the so-called 100% right Christianity. If one thing is considered a metaphor and another truth, and one thing false and another truth, then why not all false? There is no supporting evidence, but plenty of things against it.. That heavily outweighs what Christians think they know. I'm not going to explain to you that there is no true "right and wrong" or "good and evil" as I've already done that in another thread. It's all based on the society we live in. Judging someone based on actions but determined by your own morals and beliefs is actively done, however these things may not be considered as such if the tides were turned. An infinite amount of probability in this universe and this is what we come out with..



I don't know how you can discuss reliability of the Bible when there is none.. Unless you want to discuss that there is absolutely no supporting evidence or anything to conclude the reliability of the Bible, and in that case, go ahead.

But anyways.. I'd like to thank Capn Owen for defending me there so I didn't have to waste time explaining that stuff before and the accusations of me insulting people and supposedly hurting their feelings.. Pity on them.

And now for some more things to consider:

Christians believe without a doubt there is a God.. And yet.. Here's a question they have yet to answer; "Riddle Me This: If God Created The Universe, Who Created God?" When you are able to answer that question effectively then you'll be able to turn my view.. Until then, keep fishing. But Of Course, this is akin to the theory of how the universe formed around scientific views.. I have something that might be possibility.

Suppose that in the beginning.. There was absolutely nothing. No matter, no elements, nothing at all. However, this doesn't rule out that there could have been laws and properties that concerned the nothingness that would not be measurable in our time.. For instance, there may have been a law at that time that could have been as such: "Through nothingness, there must be something to replace it." This would even constitute a "Big Bang Theory" however not revolving around something such as a compact sphere of such density that the entire universe formed.. But that in a single moment of time, perhaps just miliseconds through this nothingness, that sprung forth a lot of something. It's kind of far-fetched, but if you consider that laws we know not of today could have existed through that small amount of time, then it COULD be possible.

Now, many people say a LOT of the Bible is metaphor.. I actually think nearly ALL of it is metaphor, except for some of the history-related things that did not concern the religion. Now, consider that perhaps those who wrote it meant that "God" may have actually been the "Universe" itself. A metaphor that would actually make sense.. Because logically then that would spring forth from the universe is life.. Or perhaps that God was that "Complete Nothingness" that the universe sprung forth from.. These ideas seem most plausible to me.. However some people may not be so easily persuaded into thinking beyond the borders of what we supposedly know. We have much yet to learn about this universe we live in, perhaps in time the answers will unfold to us.


And now onto this Guy... What I really wanted to talk about..

His whole arguments are ridiculous if one seriously thinks about it.. Look, one thing you must understand when considering the whole debate issue is who we are in reality, and in the picture of an Omnipotent-God.

1) We are temporary, we are all gonna live 70 possibly 100 years tops, if we're lucky or unlucky considering how life pans out...

2) We're weak and virtually at the will of mother nature, disease, viruses, and especially an all powerful being...

Therein lies you're futile argument.. Well, if God is real then what created him?? Or what was before him??

The entire question is ludicrous.. The simple answer being he is, he was, and shall ever be.. Or in the words of Gensis "I AM WHAT I AM.. THE BEGINNING AND THE END. THE ALPHA AND THE OMEGA"

Our foolish laws of nature, time, laws of physics can't possibly apply to an all powerful God for then he wouldn't be all powerful.. In which case your running in a circular argument that's going nowhere.. Be definition he has always been.. But in case you need an easily understandable answer..

It's akeen to a painter drawing a scetch of a village, then applying those laws, and definitions of the painting to the painter. It makes no sense, he created that painting; therefore, he is not bound to it.. They are his rules, he makes them up as he sees fit.. That's the benefit of being an all powerful God, you're all powerful not bound by the rules and laws of this world. You can make, shift, change them at your disposal.. Who ever told you that time was linear.. that it flows in one direction, because in many circumstances it's not.. That your point of view, not God's.

Furthermore, I could detail in exact details the realibility and facts of the bible that lends incredible creedence to it's integrity, but it would be a waste of effort.. If one is closed-minded, not saying anyone here is specifically, but if one is closed-minded and not seeking to hear the other side then it's ignorance, and a waste of effort.. But I will endulge anyone who seriously wishes for a detailed account as to why the bible is the most realible piece of historical literature ever written, and what exactly convinced me of the existence of Christ. But that's only if they are willing to consider my point of view once I paste them..

clmora 27-Feb-2003 20:38

Quote:

(Originally posted by Capn Owen)

clmora you seem to believe that all atheists don't know anything about Christianity. That in itself is ingorant. A large amount of atheists that I know are former Christians who for once opened thier minds to everyone else's beliefs then seen how what Chrisitianity really is.

One question I have is why do you follow God? Because he created you? Then if that is so do you go and worship your parents each day also?
Once again we're running into shallow points of Well my best friend,second-cousin nephrew, newly releaed 3 times removed dog's owner by way of marriage was a Christian and now he's a Monkey's Uncle...

I once knew a guy who was in Special Forces with me then one day flipped his lid and believed he was the re-incarnation of a diseased stricken cow ladden with a serious infection of (Insert disease name here.)


I never claimed to know anything about anyone other than there is in fact ignorant people on both sides of the argument...

One more thing, you assume too much, who ever told you I was a Christian???

LOL, with the life that'll be a joke!!! I have knowledge of the basic facts of Christianity, I don't claim to actively be involved with it.. At least not anymore...

I was once a Democrat, but have sinse receeded from political affliations, and picking and choosing sides..Perferring not to vote at all anymore.. Doesn't mean that Political party is any more or less correct in it's views just becuase little old no account me..Chooses to abstain.. Once again we're running into arguments of people, and their examples..

Killersting 27-Feb-2003 22:26

Clmora, it amazes me how you try to persuade other people with your arguments. But you have to understand that you cannot talk about the laws and physics like that. Do you have a master degree in physics and chemisrty? Probrbly not, and if so I apologize.
Those laws are not so easy to understand as mere foolish. They have a reason of being there and have been proven! Has it been proven that God excists? Not to the moment no. But it also hasn't been proven that he does not excist.
So for a "logical" reason you can't say that God excists and can alter all the laws in the universe.
For a "relegional" reason you can, people are allowed to believe everything they want as long as it does no harm to other people.

The laws of nature are being misjudged by some people, the laws don't say anything about, this can't happen or that can't happen, they merely give an explanation what happens with the energy needed or required for the action that is happening. Every law in physics or chemistry can be shortened to one: action = -reaction

Everything around us happens in balance, EVERTHING, there has never been a power shortage or low amount of energy, all the energy that was on earth a billion years ago is still here, just in another form of energy. Energy can never disapear in some way or another.
So if it is true that god is the beginning and the end, he's eternal, there must be something that makes him possible to do that, He can't do it by himself.

But this whole discussing isn't about wether He is real or not, this discussion is abou wether you belive in it or not. And my awnser is: no. Maybe someone can convince me otherwise, but he'll have to really have good facts for it. I'm not saying that God cannot excist, because it can, in some way or another.
The fact is that people "NEED" to believe he excists, for comfort in bad times and so on. There is nothing wrong with that, it brings hope for them.
But what IS wrong, is the fact that people are willing to prove to others that God excists or willing to prove that God does not excist so bad that they would even fight wars over them. That's just useless, there will always be people who think different, and have different oppinions thatn other people.
Be smart and don't let it go to your head! Let others think what they want, and they will do the same thing and let you think what you want. (apartheid!)

Warlyik 27-Feb-2003 22:42

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And now onto this Guy... What I really wanted to talk about..

His whole arguments are ridiculous if one seriously thinks about it.. Look, one thing you must understand when considering the whole debate issue is who we are in reality, and in the picture of an Omnipotent-God.
That's funny how you dismiss my logical explanations at the very moment your eyes set apon them, because I know all too well that you're too afraid and ignorant to think that there isn't a God. You're too afraid that your God will punish you for what you think about. That's why there are so many ignorant Christians.. And don't try to deny it.. If you believe in God you're related to Christianity, Judaism, or Islam in one way or another. Either way, you're too ignorant to even TRY to understand what I'm saying. I truly pity your existence.

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1) We are temporary, we are all gonna live 70 possibly 100 years tops, if we're lucky or unlucky considering how life pans out...

2) We're weak and virtually at the will of mother nature, disease, viruses, and especially an all powerful being...

Therein lies you're futile argument.. Well, if God is real then what created him?? Or what was before him??

The entire question is ludicrous.. The simple answer being he is, he was, and shall ever be.. Or in the words of Gensis "I AM WHAT I AM.. THE BEGINNING AND THE END. THE ALPHA AND THE OMEGA"
Tell me exactly how that implies that my argument is futile? Human life expectancy has no relevency to this conversation. It proves absolutely nothing. And the fact that we are bent by the will of "nature" is irrelevent as well. You clearly lack an understanding of the world we live in.. And you can only blame yourself for this. You still haven't answered the question, because all you've come up with is the same faith-based assumption that every other Christian types up; that "God was always there". Don't you see that if the scientific community said that the "Big Bang Mass" was always there then that'd also be right? You cannot possibly prove yourself through that explanation. Nice try though, although you seriously lack what we'd call "Intelligence". Not to mention the fact that you quoted the Bible, which is a clear unreliable source of information.

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Our foolish laws of nature, time, laws of physics can't possibly apply to an all powerful God for then he wouldn't be all powerful.. In which case your running in a circular argument that's going nowhere.. Be definition he has always been.. But in case you need an easily understandable answer..

It's akeen to a painter drawing a scetch of a village, then applying those laws, and definitions of the painting to the painter. It makes no sense, he created that painting; therefore, he is not bound to it.. They are his rules, he makes them up as he sees fit.. That's the benefit of being an all powerful God, you're all powerful not bound by the rules and laws of this world. You can make, shift, change them at your disposal.. Who ever told you that time was linear.. that it flows in one direction, because in many circumstances it's not.. That your point of view, not God's.
The laws of physics wouldn't apply to a spiritual being. That is certainly NOT the point of what my question was referring to. A law that is unknown was my own explanation for the beginning of this universe. That had no relevency to whether this God could have existed or not. As I said before, you haven't answered the question. God cannot just exist without being