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-   -   Why did God kill my unborn children ? (https://forums.utopiatemple.com/showthread.php?t=68961)

Bernel 10-Apr-2006 06:43

Re: Why did God kill my unborn children ?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Strat Attack
Im sorry for your loss, but nobody can really say why it happened, who knows if god was the one responsible..has anyone considered that death exists because of Satan and he is the one who kills..God has nothing to do with it?

This is possible only if you deny that God is omnipotent and replace it with a concept of two equally powerful Gods fighting for power. When Satan appears in the book of Job he seems to be a good friend of God given their chattting while Satan torments Job and kills people surrounding him indiscriminately.

Lord Menchalior 10-Apr-2006 09:58

Devil wishes only to seek ways to destroy God and his creations men... For his hatred is bottomless pit of darkness BUT we cannot know how entities like God and devil react each others, we cannot assume they would behave like human's. So they might be very well a dialogue between God and devil, as they agreed on that pact for men's soul...

Who knows why but this, like everything else is dicated by your own point of view...

Caelis666 10-Apr-2006 10:37

Re: Why did God kill my unborn children ?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Strat Attack
You view is obviously a very narrow one, I pity you, now go live in your own self-sentered world.

Im sorry for your loss, but nobody can really say why it happened, who knows if god was the one responsible..has anyone considered that death exists because of Satan and he is the one who kills..God has nothing to do with it?

If you want logic, imagine if every creature that ever existed was still alive, the human population would supposidly be + 60 billion. Overpopulation is bad enough..its not a nice way to look at things but it could be considered population control.

You call someone narrowminded because you do not agree with him? Ehm.. :rolleyes:

If God did not want it to happen, according to Christianity, he could have stopped it. He did not, therefor he/she/it would be responsible.
And if you are almighty, how about, instead of killing children, just making a bigger world to control population? Or only kill old folks?
I'd rather burn in hell then say yes and Amen to a God that's as morally corrupted as most religions believe him/her/it to be.

Gus Mackay 10-Apr-2006 11:32

Just because Human morality/lack of does not sit with God, does not mean you are correct.

God does not take a predominant role in our lives. That's just how things are. This world is a test. It's not paradise and things will go wrong. That's just life.

Quote:

I'd rather burn in hell then say yes and Amen to a God that's as morally corrupted as most religions believe him/her/it to be.
Suit yourself.

Lord Menchalior 10-Apr-2006 11:46

Re: Why did God kill my unborn children ?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by caelis666
You call someone narrowminded because you do not agree with him? Ehm.. :rolleyes:

If God did not want it to happen, according to Christianity, he could have stopped it. He did not, therefor he/she/it would be responsible.
And if you are almighty, how about, instead of killing children, just making a bigger world to control population? Or only kill old folks?
I'd rather burn in hell then say yes and Amen to a God that's as morally corrupted as most religions believe him/her/it to be.

We'll world was a lot bigger before men started to meddle with it. Nature controlled birth, hard work, hard living. Then came medicines that took away a lot diseases and helped population explosion... So over population is actually man's fault. God might be almighty but he chose to gave us freewill, that he will not temper with, even he is almighty, that doesn't mean he should use all of his powers and then limit our free will... JMHO.

Caelis666 10-Apr-2006 16:49

Re: Why did God kill my unborn children ?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Gus Mackay
Just because Human morality/lack of does not sit with God, does not mean you are correct.

That's the funny thing about morals. They are personal, so you cant be correct or incorrect. I dont expect God to take over mine, just as I wont take over the morals of a God that I do not agree with.

And as has been pointed out in several threads already, the existance of an all-knowing God excludes the possibility of free will.

Gus Mackay 10-Apr-2006 23:32

According to whom? According to our own logic? According to our own logic, the Universe arose out of nothing :rolleyes: Wow, that's logical... So if Humans are often illogical, we can't possibly judge God. We want to subject God to Human standards when God isn't Human. Further, God would not constantly use His omnipotence in action since as I've already said, pain and suffering on this Earth is only temporary, is a result from the fall, and is a way to see if we're capable of handling true riches.

Happy Sid 11-Apr-2006 00:49

Quote:

the Universe arose out of nothing
No, the Universe never 'arose' at all, or at least we cannot determine this with any certainty.

But the notion of a being who allows children to be miscarried or stillborn, and still claims to love us? The notion of a being who refuses to eliminate this being 'Satan' even though he could (because he's omnipotent)? A being who, in effect, places a pot of boiling water on the floor, puts a child next to it, leaves the room, and is surprised when the child hurts himself?

*That* is illogical. People talk about age-old questions, but it has as much relevance now as it ever did; Why does God allow such evil to exist in this world, when his omnipotence allows him to destroy it?

tylerrrrr 11-Apr-2006 00:52

sorry for your loss, but my family has a history of doing this as my grandma and my cousin both have had a miscarriage. Although no words can make up for your loss God always has a plan and what we may not understand will make sense in the end.

Gus Mackay 11-Apr-2006 01:20

Re: Why did God kill my unborn children ?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Lodewijk
No, the Universe never 'arose' at all, or at least we cannot determine this with any certainty.

But the notion of a being who allows children to be miscarried or stillborn, and still claims to love us? The notion of a being who refuses to eliminate this being 'Satan' even though he could (because he's omnipotent)?

That's just life. This life isn't meant to be perfect.

Quote:

*That* is illogical. People talk about age-old questions, but it has as much relevance now as it ever did; Why does God allow such evil to exist in this world, when his omnipotence allows him to destroy it?
God can't be around sin and evil. As I keep saying, God allows it because it serves a function in this world - that is to sort wheat from the chaff.

Caelis666 11-Apr-2006 11:23

Re: Why did God kill my unborn children ?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Gus Mackay
That's just life. This life isn't meant to be perfect.

God can't be around sin and evil. As I keep saying, God allows it because it serves a function in this world - that is to sort wheat from the chaff.

Life isnt meant to be perfect? Why not? Because God doesnt want us to have good times.

Sort wheat from the chaff? Wait, wasnt it God who made the wheat and the chaff? Wouldnt it be a lot easier to just make wheat? And if not, why would he/she/it need sorting, he/she/it knows everything already, no?

Lord Menchalior 11-Apr-2006 12:50

Just because he has powers beyod our imagination, knows everything that happends, he cannot interfeare, because he gave us free will, so we could determ our own destinies without being affected by entities directly...

Just becuase you have power and knowledge, that doesn't mean you need to use 'em...

QuantumChaos 11-Apr-2006 13:06

Grashnak, my condolenses on the loss of your 2 unborn children. My sister had a miscarriage last year as well, so I've seen first hand the pain it can bring.

But I do not believe this is a question of "Why, God?" This, in my opinion, is the unfortunate way of our world, where 33% of pregnancies end like this. With the exception of the Big Bang, Jesus, Abraham, and perhaps Moses, I really don't believe God has put anything directly into our lives. This, I would say, is the unfortunate luck of the draw.

God has always been one to let us live our own lives, and not to interfere. This, to me, seems to be one of those situations. Once again, my condolences, and I wish you and your wife luck in the future.

Strat Attack 11-Apr-2006 15:46

Re: Why did God kill my unborn children ?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by caelis666
You call someone narrowminded because you do not agree with him? Ehm.. :rolleyes:

If God did not want it to happen, according to Christianity, he could have stopped it. He did not, therefor he/she/it would be responsible.
And if you are almighty, how about, instead of killing children, just making a bigger world to control population? Or only kill old folks?
I'd rather burn in hell then say yes and Amen to a God that's as morally corrupted as most religions believe him/her/it to be.


nah i called him narrow minded because of his comment about my faith...im not silly because of what i believe..im opened minded and accept other religions, i may not agree with them totally, but i dont go out of my way to make anti-religious comments.

remember that according to the bible humans were sent to earth for the sins of adam and eve..who said life was ment to be perfect.

And why do people always look to blame others when unexplained things happen?..bah...anyways..why cant God be almighty and not have 100% control over humans...God gave people the right to choose our path, and if thats the case maybe by being given that choice we aren not 100% subject to God will.

As for Satan, he might be as powerful as God, he is essentially Gods opposite, Satan may not have direct control over people but maybe he can still influence them...im just saying that it shouldnt be ruled out that Satan didnt have a hand in it?

Thack 11-Apr-2006 17:26

Re: Why did God kill my unborn children ?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Gus Mackay
So if Humans are often illogical, we can't possibly judge God. We want to subject God to Human standards when God isn't Human.

Wouldn't you consider that the wider Christian doctrine does this also? "God is good, God is kind, God is merciful" and so forth.

Grashnak, sorry to hear about your loss. God works in mysterious ways. As do Allah, Zeus and the great flying Spaghetti monster. Tis a great shame that none of them have much regard for people and their problems, really.

Happy Sid 12-Apr-2006 11:38

Quote:

As for Satan, he might be as powerful as God, he is essentially Gods opposite, Satan may not have direct control over people but maybe he can still influence them...im just saying that it shouldnt be ruled out that Satan didnt have a hand in it?
I feel like hitting something every time Christians bring up Satan. Simply because, if God was all-powerful, why on earth doesn't he just make Satan disappear? That he chooses to let Satan wreak havoc is tantamount to, at-best, depraved indifference, and at worst, complicit participation in evil.

Not to mention the explicit acts of evil like sending a giant flood to destroy everything. Real nice guy, no?

Gus Mackay 12-Apr-2006 12:08

How many times do we have to explain the Christian point of view? God allows it because this world is impermanent. Bad things are part of life. That's just the way it is. That's how our God works. I'm not asking you to believe in it (not at the moment anyways) so stop repeating the same thing over and over. We've already given you the Christian belief, and that's the end of that. You don't need to believe the same thing - that's your own choice. We've already told you the truth. It's up to you to decide for yourself if you want to continue misplacing your faith in Humanity.

Happy Sid 12-Apr-2006 12:12

Quote:

God allows it because this world is impermanent. Bad things are part of life. That's just the way it is. That's how our God works.
What you have not justified is how such a point of view is consistent with a merciful God. Saying 'that's how our God works' is not an explanation at all, it's a restatement of any possible objection. It's untenable to claim that there is a merciful God, who allows awful things to happen.

What I would love is some biblical evidence to support your oft-repeated point of view.

Gus Mackay 12-Apr-2006 12:41

Re: Why did God kill my unborn children ?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Lodewijk
What you have not justified is how such a point of view is consistent with a merciful God. Saying 'that's how our God works' is not an explanation at all, it's a restatement of any possible objection. It's untenable to claim that there is a merciful God, who allows awful things to happen.

What I would love is some biblical evidence to support your oft-repeated point of view.

I use the vengefulness of God in the OT as the example of how God doesn't kid about in dealing with our lives, and I use the forgiveness and acts of Jesus in the NT to show that while God can often be harsh, He is also be fair and gives us all a chance.

My Biblical support?

Quote:

Heb 12:25-29 (Phi) So be sure you do not refuse to hear the voice that speaks. For if they who refused to hear those who spoke to them on earth did not escape, how little chance of escape is there for us if we refuse to hear the One who speaks from Heaven. Then his voice shook the earth, but now he promises: "Yet once more will I make to tremble not the earth only, but also the heaven." This means that in this final "shaking" all that is impermanent will be removed, that is, everything that is merely "made", and only the unshakable things will remain. Since then, we have been given a kingdom that is "unshakable", let us serve God with thankfulness in the ways which please him, but always with reverence and holy fear. For it is perfectly true that our God is a burning fire.

That's a nice excerpt.

Dusk Illz 12-Apr-2006 14:10

Re: Why did God kill my unborn children ?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Grashnak
Last year my wife & I concieved twice both times the fetus died. The first time the pregnancy was some way in & so took quite some time & a huge amount of pain & blood for my wifes body to expel the unborn child.

Why would God kill my unborn children do you guys think ? Were their thoughts (if they even had any) immoral and so deserved death as the wages of sin ? It cannot be anything to do with our athiestic lives since 'the sins of thy father are not thine own'.

BTW - hats off to any of the faithful who can answer this question well.

You, perhaps uninentionally, raise an interesting point: if something that hasn't been born can die, what actually is 'death' then? The opposite of birth, or rather the opposite of life.. or perhaps actually neither? Since you speak of killing the unborn, you indicate that life starts before birth, which seems highly reasonable considering the development of the fetus in the womb. However, it becomes a lot more tricky when you realize that as a result, the 'life' you speak of doesn't seem to have an actual starting point. It surely didn't begin at some point halfway during pregnancy, so perhaps it must've been at conception? But if the fusion of the sperm and egg cell was the starting point of a new life, then it is also clear that this can't be much of an actual 'start', since that sperm & egg that developed into your child's embryo were already alive in you and your wife long before conception. Even more, before the conception of you and your wife, that same genetic material that largely makes up you and your children existed in, and to some degree spread out over, both your various ancestors. And that's only as far as form and substance is concerned, 'spiritually' speaking it would be even harder to speak of isolatable individuals that 'begin' and 'end'.

While this may all very well seem like gibberish, or simply not of any help, what it points towards for me, is that nature does not believe in the same individuality that we do. Put more accurately, our *concept* of individuality does not correspond to reality very well: where life at the fundamental level shows mainly continuity and interrelatedness, we instead frame our thoughts in terms of decontextualized abstractions, static 'things', seperate building blocks, individual lives, and so forth. The notions of Life and Death, instinctively 'real' as they may seem to you, are actually mere cognitive constructs, the inevitable result of seeing things divorced from their context. The terms do not do justice to what really goes on. Before your children were born, the energy that would eventually form them existed already. At some point those 'energies' converged and took shape temporarily, only to later inevitably diffuse again. Those energies still exist today, as energy isn't created or destroyed, merely transformed. My point: at the level of reality nothing died, although to you it certainly seemed so.

I hope i'm not out of line going this far. I'm aware my rant could be interpreted as highly disrespectful to somebody that just lost his children, and it's certainly not my intention to hurt anybody. Please be assured up front that i say this all with the deepest compassion and respect. I'm merely attempting to shed light on an issue that i believe deserves a lot more than to be framed in terms of God, Satan, Atheism and Sin.


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