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-   -   Why did God kill my unborn children ? (https://forums.utopiatemple.com/showthread.php?t=68961)

Isouttahere 15-Apr-2006 04:10

To try and answer you Grashnak.....
Carson makes a very good point in the book I've been reading, and I agree with him.
It seems to him, that we are viewing these events from the wrong perspective. I've summarised his arguement below.

One of the most helpful passages is Luke 13:1-5. so if you're still reading this and you've got a bible handy Grasnak, look it up.
Basically, some people come to Jesus with a report about how Pilate has slaughtered some people. Their view was that these people must have been greater sinners than anyone else. Read Jesus' response.

1. He doesn't assume that these people did not deserve their fate. But infact he tells those listening that unless they repent, they too will perish. So Jesus assumes that all death is in one way or another a result of sin and therefore deserved.
2. He does insist that death by such means is no evidence whatsoever that those who suffer in this way are any more wicked than those that escape such a fate, but that all deserve to die. death by this way is no more than they deserve. But that does not mean that others deserve any less. rather, the implication is that it is only God's mercy that has kept them alive, certainly no moral superiority.
3. Jesus treats war and natural disasters not as agenda items in a discussion of the mysterious ways of God, but as incentives to repentance. it is as though God uses these happenings as a megaphone to call attention to our guilt and the imminence of his judgement. See Amos 4 where this arguement is developed.

Disaster is a call to repentance. Jesus might have added (as he does elsewhere) that peace and tranquility, which we do not deserve, show us God's goodness and forebearance.

It is the mark of our lostness that we invert these two. we think we deserve the times of blessing and prosperity, and that the times of war and disaster are not only unfair but come very close to questioning God's goodness, his power and perhaps his existance.
Jesus doesn't see it this way, and we need to make fundamental realignments to our assessments of ourselves.


Dusk: some very interesting thoughts, which make sense for the most part, but I might not take it as far as you.

Samurai Pooh 17-Apr-2006 01:07

Re: Why did God kill my unborn children ?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Strat Attack
nah i called him narrow minded because of his comment about my faith...im not silly because of what i believe..im opened minded and accept other religions, i may not agree with them totally, but i dont go out of my way to make anti-religious comments.

If you were truly open minded, you would have understood I was simply pointing out the hypocrisy of thanking a God for blessings while at the same time disavowing him of any responsibility for his curses.

Quote:

And why do people always look to blame others when unexplained things happen?..bah...anyways..why cant God be almighty and not have 100% control over humans...God gave people the right to choose our path, and if thats the case maybe by being given that choice we aren not 100% subject to God will.
Actually, free will does not exist. Not according to the Christian religion anyway. But I don't have time to explain it to someone I doubt is willing to listen.

Quote:

remember that according to the bible humans were sent to earth for the sins of adam and eve..who said life was ment to be perfect.
Who said life wasn't meant to be perfect?

Oh yeah...God...

Fuck Him.

Grashnak 17-Apr-2006 19:47

Re: Why did God kill my unborn children ?
 
Firstly, thank you to all that have offered kind words. It was a difficult time last year but we have been able to move on.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Crumby
Sorry to hear that Grashnak.

Thats the point of view if you believe in heavon Condemned.
You are sad that they died, but you know they are in a much better place God has prepared.

Are they ? They had not experienced the world at all - how can they possibly cope in 'a better place' they have no mind to speak of or experience to draw from. Also, since they are 'tainted' with origional sin they are now in hell so all they know or will ever know is pain and suffering.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dannoman
1. He doesn't assume that these people did not deserve their fate. But infact he tells those listening that unless they repent, they too will perish. So Jesus assumes that all death is in one way or another a result of sin and therefore deserved.
2. He does insist that death by such means is no evidence whatsoever that those who suffer in this way are any more wicked than those that escape such a fate, but that all deserve to die. death by this way is no more than they deserve. But that does not mean that others deserve any less. rather, the implication is that it is only God's mercy that has kept them alive, certainly no moral superiority.
3. Jesus treats war and natural disasters not as agenda items in a discussion of the mysterious ways of God, but as incentives to repentance. it is as though God uses these happenings as a megaphone to call attention to our guilt and the imminence of his judgement. See Amos 4 where this arguement is developed.

Disaster is a call to repentance. Jesus might have added (as he does elsewhere) that peace and tranquility, which we do not deserve, show us God's goodness and forebearance.

But how does a fetus know how to repent ? How should a fetus pray for forgiveness ? You really think that Jesus believes my unborn children deserved death ? What peace and tranquility will Thingy 1st & Thingy 2nd ever get ? How can a God be considered 'merciful' & 'good' by subjecting an eternity of pain and torment and such small & seriously under developed children ??

Am not trying to score points here - just cannot understand why people can believe God is benevolent when He does things like this... only a daily, probably even less than 15 minutely basis. I hear of fundimenatist christians decrying abortion clinics for thier 'murders' and at the same time believe it's ok for God to do the exact same thing. Sure I can understand belief in God - but 'good' and merciful seem just absurd when hell & babies are involved.

Sorry if I end up ranting and rehashing old arguments, difficult to remain objective about such an emotive subject so close to home.

Lord Menchalior 17-Apr-2006 23:57

its said, all chidlren are God's and their names are in book of life, until they are old enough ( 9 to 15 I guess ) to make the choice themselves. If they die before that, they are considered pure hearted, innocent children of God who are granted places in heavens...

Its different matter wether you want to believe this

Grashnak 18-Apr-2006 09:27

Re: Why did God kill my unborn children ?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Lord Menchalior
its said, all chidlren are God's and their names are in book of life, until they are old enough ( 9 to 15 I guess ) to make the choice themselves. If they die before that, they are considered pure hearted, innocent children of God who are granted places in heavens...

Its different matter wether you want to believe this

Does it say that in the Bible anywhere ? As far as I am aware there is no such passage. This is one of the reasons that the Catholic church invetory purgatory which is slightly better than hell for all these children.

Gus Mackay 18-Apr-2006 09:35

Re: Why did God kill my unborn children ?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Grashnak
Does it say that in the Bible anywhere ? As far as I am aware there is no such passage. This is one of the reasons that the Catholic church invetory purgatory which is slightly better than hell for all these children.

It says that everyone will have a chance to accept Christ into their lives. Some theologians have pointed to parts of the Bible where Jesus preaches about the innocence of children as evidence of their automatic salvation if they have not had a chance to know God.

Grashnak 18-Apr-2006 12:05

Re: Why did God kill my unborn children ?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Gus Mackay
It says that everyone will have a chance to accept Christ into their lives. Some theologians have pointed to parts of the Bible where Jesus preaches about the innocence of children as evidence of their automatic salvation if they have not had a chance to know God.


Are you sure about that - don't recall any passage(s) about that either. Anyway, how can a fetus possibly comprehend the existance of God let alone accept Jesus. It sounds like an invention to get out of the fact that Jesus says 'The only way to the Father is through me' and a fetus cannot possibly know Jesus.

KnightoftheNite 20-Apr-2006 17:59

God does not always work in ways we can understand. He has his reasons, but a small and insignificant human mind may not be able to understand them.

Grashnak 20-Apr-2006 18:07

Re: Why did God kill my unborn children ?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by KnightoftheNite
God does not always work in ways we can understand. He has his reasons, but a small and insignificant human mind may not be able to understand them.

You are right there - I have no idea why God killed my children & condemned them to an eternity in hell. I have *really* no idea why people think He is benevolent.

Greeney 20-Apr-2006 18:10

Re: Why did God kill my unborn children ?
 
Quote:

Are you sure about that - don't recall any passage(s) about that either. Anyway, how can a fetus possibly comprehend the existance of God let alone accept Jesus. It sounds like an invention to get out of the fact that Jesus says 'The only way to the Father is through me' and a fetus cannot possibly know Jesus.
Quote:

Originally Posted by Grashnak
You are right there - I have no idea why God killed my children & condemned them to an eternity in hell. I have *really* no idea why people think He is benevolent.

I don't enjoy defending Christianity, but I do believe that according to the religion anyone under who dies before they turn seven (Judaism - 13, Islam - 15) goes to heaven anyway.

Grashnak 20-Apr-2006 18:16

Re: Why did God kill my unborn children ?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Greeney
I don't enjoy defending Christianity, but I do believe that according to the religion anyone under who dies before they turn seven (Judaism - 13, Islam - 15) goes to heaven anyway.

Know of any scripture to back this up ? Nothing in the Bible or as far as I have seen.

Despite me asking for several days no one has been able to show that my children are not in hell. Only part I know is:

"I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one can come to the Father except through me."

My children did not know Jesus, therefore they are not with the Father.

Bernel 20-Apr-2006 19:04

Re: Why did God kill my unborn children ?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Grashnak
"I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one can come to the Father except through me."

My children did not know Jesus, therefore they are not with the Father.

This is the traditional interpretation, but if you read the words all Jesus says is that he decides who will be allowed to enter, not what rules he uses to make the decision. To find those you'll have to read the rest of the gospels. (assuming that Jesus really were the son of God and that the gospels are reasonably accurate accounts of what he said) The God of the Old Testament would send your kids to hell for not following the letter of the law, but Jesus doesn't strike me as a man who'd do it.

Where Greeney gets his figures for ages I don't know. There is a reason why most Christian denominations switched to baptizing children soon after birth. They believed that unbaptized children couldn't go to heaven, nor were they buried on hallowed ground. I suspect this interpretation has more to do with the Church wanting power over everyone than on scripture, however.

Grashnak 20-Apr-2006 19:39

Re: Why did God kill my unborn children ?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Bernel
This is the traditional interpretation, but if you read the words all Jesus says is that he decides who will be allowed to enter, not what rules he uses to make the decision. To find those you'll have to read the rest of the gospels. (assuming that Jesus really were the son of God and that the gospels are reasonably accurate accounts of what he said)

I have read the gospels and I can't see where that interpretation comes from. The rest of John 14 makes (to me at least) it even clearer that this is a very specific, non-negitioable point - for example:

Do not let your hearts be troubled. Trust in God; trust also in me. In my Father's house are many rooms; if it were not so, I would have told you. I am going there to prepare a place for you. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and take you to be with me that you also may be where I am. You know the way to the place where I am going."
Jesus the Way to the Father
Thomas said to him, "Lord, we don't know where you are going, so how can we know the way?"

Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. If you really knew me, you would know[b] my Father as well. From now on, you do know him and have seen him."

I just don't see how that can be interpreted in another way.

Quote:

The God of the Old Testament would send your kids to hell for not following the letter of the law, but Jesus doesn't strike me as a man who'd do it.
Neither me - but then turn the page and read John 15....

I am the vine; you are the branches. If a man remains in me and I in him, he will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing. If anyone does not remain in me, he is like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned. If you remain in me and my words remain in you, ask whatever you wish, and it will be given you. This is to my Father's glory, that you bear much fruit, showing yourselves to be my disciples.

I guess as we are both unbelievers, our children were pruned.

Shades 15-Jun-2006 07:43

Re: Why did God kill my unborn children ?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Grashnak
Last year my wife & I concieved twice both times the fetus died. The first time the pregnancy was some way in & so took quite some time & a huge amount of pain & blood for my wifes body to expel the unborn child.

Why would God kill my unborn children do you guys think ? Were their thoughts (if they even had any) immoral and so deserved death as the wages of sin ? It cannot be anything to do with our athiestic lives since 'the sins of thy father are not thine own'.

BTW - hats off to any of the faithful who can answer this question well.

I personally don't think that God killed your children...Or "Took" them away to live with him in heaven. To consider yourself a real bible based christian and belive this, is absurd.(The second and third sentence goes to the people who replied with that..Not to you)

From the biblical standpoint it's because of our inheritence of sin from Adam, which is with us as soon as we are concieved.

Quote:

Psalms 51:5 "Look! With error I was brought forth with birth pains, and in sin my mother concieved me". NWT
Quote:

Romans 5:12 "That is why, just as through one man sin entered into the world and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men because they had all sinned.NWT"
So no, God's not responsible for your childrens death. A genetic flaw is.(But indirectly Adam, Eve and that idiot Satan are)

Grashnak 15-Jun-2006 13:04

Re: Why did God kill my unborn children ?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Shades
I personally don't think that God killed your children...Or "Took" them away to live with him in heaven. To consider yourself a real bible based christian and belive this, is absurd.(The second and third sentence goes to the people who replied with that..Not to you)

From the biblical standpoint it's because of our inheritence of sin from Adam, which is with us as soon as we are concieved.

That's contradictory - God has decided that my unborn children should suffer because of an ancestor's actions thousands of years in the past. No one else has decided & implimented this policy but God himself. It is by God's will that that sin is transferred - God could have revoked this policy at any time, yet clearly believes it should stay for whatever purpose He has in mind. Clearly it is by God's will that he killed my unborn children.

Lord Menchalior 15-Jun-2006 21:36

Do unborn babies suffer if they die beofre they are born? I believe based on Bible that you, Grashnak, your unborn baby did not suffered when he died and God has taken his soul, as its innocent as it can be to the heavens to eternal joy without suffering and death.

Of course, that is just my point of view nor I can say I could swore its right. But its what I believe... But I cannot say I understand your loss, I cannot. But all I can say is I am sorry for your loss...

dantendo 16-Jun-2006 02:07

Re: Why did God kill my unborn children ?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Lord Menchalior
Do unborn babies suffer if they die beofre they are born? I believe based on Bible that you, Grashnak, your unborn baby did not suffered when he died and God has taken his soul, as its innocent as it can be to the heavens to eternal joy without suffering and death.

Of course, that is just my point of view nor I can say I could swore its right. But its what I believe... But I cannot say I understand your loss, I cannot. But all I can say is I am sorry for your loss...

I am troubled by the idea that you can use your beliefs to determine when a being can begin to suffer. I would leave this one to the experts - in another thread we have already discussed when a foetus may or may not be able to feel pain, based on the opinions of people who would be more likely to know than you or I. You don't need to turn to a bible to find this sort of information.

Grashnak, I personally don't know if there is a god who did this to you, your wife and your children. If there is, I also can't see how anyone would think he was benevolent after he made things like this happen - and if these things are not under his control, I would have to say that he is obviously not as all powerful as some seem to think.

Lord Menchalior 16-Jun-2006 16:24

Re: Why did God kill my unborn children ?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by dantendo
I am troubled by the idea that you can use your beliefs to determine when a being can begin to suffer. I would leave this one to the experts - in another thread we have already discussed when a foetus may or may not be able to feel pain, based on the opinions of people who would be more likely to know than you or I. You don't need to turn to a bible to find this sort of information.

It depends on level of fetuses development. Yes fetus can feel pain and such after certain point when nerval endings and system has developed. But is baby counsciouss in womb? Or if fetus dies, is like dying in sleep? Unfortunately that is hard to proove in anydirection. Our believes are ours and they define our point of views. Every person have their own point of view.

Doctors around world are still arguing about this matter as two point of views clash together...

dantendo 17-Jun-2006 08:51

Re: Why did God kill my unborn children ?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Lord Menchalior
It depends on level of fetuses development. Yes fetus can feel pain and such after certain point when nerval endings and system has developed. But is baby counsciouss in womb? Or if fetus dies, is like dying in sleep? Unfortunately that is hard to proove in anydirection. Our believes are ours and they define our point of views. Every person have their own point of view.

Doctors around world are still arguing about this matter as two point of views clash together...

And where was that based on the bible? You orginally said:
Quote:

I believe based on Bible that you, Grashnak, your unborn baby did not suffered when he died
This was what I argued against. Your second post I have no problems at all with. Glad to know that we actually have the same opinion after all...

Torlanan 19-Jun-2006 02:43

I can't pinpoint where it is in the bible, but I do know for a fact that in the Old Testament, God did in fact say that any child who died before a certain age was allowed into heaven. I'll see if I can locate it.

One thing you may want to take into consideration is the fact that Christ's death was for the entire world.

"(Jesus) is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world." John 2:2

When Christ died, he not only washed away the sins of people who accept him, but even those that don't. Essentially, I would say that the "age of accountability" varies from person to person. Once someone is capable of making a choice one way or another, they are to be held accountable. That point is not decided by us, but rather by God himself and his knowledge of the specific person.

I don't know if that helps, but it might.


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