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-   -   Why did God kill my unborn children ? (https://forums.utopiatemple.com/showthread.php?t=68961)

Grashnak 22-Jul-2006 10:18

Re: Why did God kill my unborn children ?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Sister Klon
I didn't post in here because I was certain people would talk about Chapter 18 in the book of Luke.

15(V)And they were bringing even their babies to Him so that He would touch them, but when the disciples saw it, they began rebuking them.

16But Jesus called for them, saying, "Permit the children to come to Me, and do not hinder them, for the kingdom of God belongs to such as these.

17"Truly I say to you, (W)whoever does not receive the kingdom of God like a child will not enter it at all."

wether a fetus qualifies as a child is debateable.

More to the point, the children have to still activly seek out Jesus or at taken to Jesus to recieve His blessing. As God allowed my children to be created to athiest parents - they were doomed.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gotterdammerung
Aliens, kind of. Demons and other nasties more specifically. God would not take your child and damn them for he is completely good. This probably sounds absurd to you, but that's sometime you'll need to overcome. All that's in your way is belief.

Oh I see now it was the demons. Remind me, who created them ? Would like to speak to their creator and blame them for the damage they have done to the wife, myself and of course my children.

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Ah, but the good will of thine father can be thine own. This has nothing to do with a negative thing, like a sin, it is about redeemption of good and honest intention. This would be of course be Gods specialty. Pray hard while you still can. If you believe in a predetermined fate then you have already lost. You have to believe that you can pray for your child by first cleaning your own soul. The fate of your child is still very much in the hands of God.
That's a nice way of thinking, any scripture to back this up or is still just your own very unique faith ?

Gotterdammerung 04-Aug-2006 02:30

Re: Why did God kill my unborn children ?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Grashnak
Oh I see now it was the demons. Remind me, who created them ? Would like to speak to their creator and blame them for the damage they have done to the wife, myself and of course my children.

God indirectly created evil. That's the way it is. The question of 'why' is not clear. There is no reason but for the reason to have no apprent reason. If we knew why exactly he created evil we could dispute an all-powerful being, which I would believe would be more contridictory than this dualist situation.

Quote:

That's a nice way of thinking, any scripture to back this up or is still just your own very unique faith ?
Probably somewhere in scripture I would say. So what if it wasn't.

Gotterdammerung 04-Aug-2006 04:31

Alternatively, we may question if evil even really exists.

Quote:

The university professor challenged his students with this question.

"Did God create everything that exists?"

A student bravely replied, "Yes, he did!"

"God created everything?" The professor asked.

"Yes sir", the student replied.

The professor answered, "If God created everything, then God created evil, since evil exists, and according to the principal that our works define who we are, then God is evil".

The student became quiet before such an answer. The professor, quite pleased with himself, boasted to the students that he had proven once more that the Christian faith was a myth.

Another student raised his hand and said, "Can I ask you a question professor?"

"Of course", replied the professor.

The student stood up and asked, "Professor, does cold exist?"

"What kind of question is this? Of course it exists. Have you never been cold?" The students snickered at the young man's question.

The young man replied, "In fact sir, cold does not exist. According to the laws of physics, what we consider cold is in reality the absence of heat. Every body or object is susceptible to study when it has or transmits energy, and heat is what makes a body or matter have or transmit energy. Absolute zero (-460 F) is the total absence of heat; all matter becomes inert and incapable of reaction at that temperature. Cold does not exist. We have created this word to describe how we feel if we have no heat."

The student continued, "Professor, does darkness exist?"

The professor responded, "Of course it does."

The student replied, "Once again you are wrong sir, darkness does not exist either. Darkness is in reality the absence of light. Light we can study, but not darkness. In fact we can use Newton's prism to break white light into many colors and study the various wavelengths of each color. You cannot measure darkness. A simple ray of light can break into a world of darkness and illuminate it. How can you know how dark a certain space is? You measure the amount of light present. Isn't this correct? Darkness is a term used by man to describe what happens when there is no light
present."

Finally the young man asked the professor, "Sir, does evil exist?"

Now uncertain, the professor responded, "Of course as I have already said. We see it every day. It is in the daily example of man's inhumanity to man. It is in the multitude of crime and violence everywhere in the world. These manifestations are nothing else but evil."

To this the student replied, "Evil does not exist sir, or at least it does not exist unto itself. Evil is simply the absence of God. It is just like darkness and cold, a word that man has created to describe the absence of God. God did not create evil. Evil is not like faith, or love that exist just as does light and heat. Evil is the result of what happens when man does not have God's love present in his heart. It's like the cold that comes when there is no heat or the darkness that comes when there is no light."

The professor sat down.
Besides, all paths lead to God. Merely existing means that we are essentially good beings.

Grashnak 04-Aug-2006 08:12

Re: Why did God kill my unborn children ?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Thousand Swords
God indirectly created evil. That's the way it is. The question of 'why' is not clear. There is no reason but for the reason to have no apprent reason. If we knew why exactly he created evil we could dispute an all-powerful being, which I would believe would be more contridictory than this dualist situation.

I don't need to know 'why' he did it - scripture says that it is impossible to know His mind. Just like I don't care why Irish terrorists nearly killed my family. When someone kills someone close to you, motive is not really important to you.

Quote:

Probably somewhere in scripture I would say. So what if it wasn't.
Then it has no bearing on God - your personal opinion of how God works is just that. It has no bearing on reality if Gods words via scripture do not back you up.

Quote:

... cheesy tale.
The student is wrong, darkness does exist. We happen to measure the luminesance of an area as it is practical for calculations (since they are both based on energy) but there is no reason why we cannot measure it's converse and use measurements of the lack of light. Same goes for the lack of heat energy.

Besides God is supposed to be omnipresent isn't he ? How can there ever be a lack of God ?

Quote:

Besides, all paths lead to God. Merely existing means that we are essentially good beings. .
Any scripture to back that up ?

Downwithgravity 04-Aug-2006 14:49

I'm sorry for your loss but you have to understand that from the moment they are created, all things have an end. The end may occur within a millisecond for certain subatomic particles or after billions of years for stars.

There aren't any reasons behind it, God is not to blame, it's just how the universe works.

Grashnak 04-Aug-2006 17:07

Re: Why did God kill my unborn children ?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Downwithgravity
There aren't any reasons behind it, God is not to blame, it's just how the universe works.

He isn't ? Then who is ? God is the creator, He allowed our children to be created & presumably gave it a soul. He created the circumstances surrounding the lives of my wife, me & our children. If He wanted them to live they would, apparently He did not.

Saint Sinner 04-Aug-2006 20:40

Re: Why did God kill my unborn children ?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Grashnak
He isn't ? Then who is ? God is the creator, He allowed our children to be created & presumably gave it a soul. He created the circumstances surrounding the lives of my wife, me & our children. If He wanted them to live they would, apparently He did not.

God didnt create the circumstances surrounding you or anyone else for that matter, others did... you did by your choices and by your actions. God did a lot but one of the things he did that I really enjoy is he gave us free will so that we can make our own mistakes and either learn from them or make them again untill we do. Just as we teach our children how to stand yet allow them to fall so that they may learn to stand on their own, so does God, our father, do the same for us.


I could respond to every comment you have made but I simply dont have the time.
So I will instead give you some words to think on and some advise ...

Put it to rest my friend, I understand what you are going through because I have went through the same, I have asked the same questions that you now ask. I have debated and argued and in the end came away with no answers that satisfied me. I wanted a perfect ending, I wanted an answer.
I've learned, the hard way, that some poems don't rhyme, and some stories don't have a clear beginning, middle, and end. Life is about not knowing, having to change, taking the moment and making the best of it, without knowing what's going to happen next.

I think its time you set your bible down and instead of looking for the answers there you put your faith in God and look to your own heart, for only there does the true answer lay.

Besides, the bible is not so much a rulebook as it is a set of guidelines ;)

In the end though, In the world to come, we shall not be asked, "Why were you not Moses?" but instead be asked, "Why were you not yourself?"

No matter what you decide to do, be it follow my advice or ignore my post completly, my thoughts and prayers are with you and your family as they have always been since the first time I read about what happened.

Grashnak 05-Aug-2006 07:55

Re: Why did God kill my unborn children ?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Saint Sinner
God didnt create the circumstances surrounding you or anyone else for that matter, others did... you did by your choices and by your actions.

Ah ! I see now, thanks for clearing that one up. BTW - who created me & these others ? Who created the others that affected them & their choices, who is the ultimate creator ? Does theis creator know all ? Did He know that by creating the world in this way it did it would utimatly kill my children ?

BTW - exactly what choices do we as a couple make to kill our children ?

Quote:

God did a lot but one of the things he did that I really enjoy is he gave us free will so that we can make our own mistakes and either learn from them or make them again untill we do. Just as we teach our children how to stand yet allow them to fall so that they may learn to stand on their own, so does God, our father, do the same for us.
What does free will have to do with all this ? Are you suggesting that my children used their free will to kill themselves ?

Quote:

I could respond to every comment you have made but I simply dont have the time.
Please take all the time you want, the thread has been open for months, I can wait as long as required for you to prepare a complete response. The only time limits are set by the forum itself.

Quote:

So I will instead give you some words to think on and some advise ...

Put it to rest my friend, I understand what you are going through because I have went through the same, I have asked the same questions that you now ask. I have debated and argued and in the end came away with no answers that satisfied me. I wanted a perfect ending, I wanted an answer.
I've learned, the hard way, that some poems don't rhyme, and some stories don't have a clear beginning, middle, and end. Life is about not knowing, having to change, taking the moment and making the best of it, without knowing what's going to happen next.
Then you have my sympathies, I would disagree there is no answer though, I found it.

Quote:

I think its time you set your bible down and instead of looking for the answers there you put your faith in God and look to your own heart, for only there does the true answer lay.

Besides, the bible is not so much a rulebook as it is a set of guidelines ;)
But the Bible did answer my question. John chapter 15 is very clear on the subject. The 'guidelines' in this case apply exactly to my case.

Quote:

In the end though, In the world to come, we shall not be asked, "Why were you not Moses?" but instead be asked, "Why were you not yourself?"

No matter what you decide to do, be it follow my advice or ignore my post completly, my thoughts and prayers are with you and your family as they have always been since the first time I read about what happened.
Thank you, I do appricate the kind words. They were unfortunate events but we have both got past them now.

To be honest Sasi this thread has outlived it's purpose, you might as well close it. I asked: 'Why did God kill my children' and I found the answer myself, John Chapter 15.

Gotterdammerung 05-Aug-2006 09:06

Re: Why did God kill my unborn children ?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Grashnak
Then it has no bearing on God - your personal opinion of how God works is just that. It has no bearing on reality if Gods words via scripture do not back you up.

I don't think all scripture is reality either. There are many takes on scripture also so it is not as concrete as you might think.

Quote:

Besides God is supposed to be omnipresent isn't he ? How can there ever be a lack of God ?
Free-will. For instance, Hell is described as a place very distant from God. Furthest from the light, if you will.

Quote:

Any scripture to back that up ?
Revelations. That is why there is judgement right? Hell is like a giant correctional facility. We were created from God so one day we shall return to Him.

Grashnak 05-Aug-2006 09:21

Re: Why did God kill my unborn children ?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Thousand Swords
I don't think all scripture is reality either. There are many takes on scripture also so it is not as concrete as you might think.

OK - so do you have any substance to any of your statements at all ? Any intrepretation of the scriptures that show this is not God's doing or that He is somehow not responable ? Anything at all?

Quote:

Free-will. For instance, Hell is described as a place very distant from God. Furthest from the light, if you will.
That's nice, but we are talking about Earth remember - God is omnipresent here isn't He ? So back to your origional statement - you suggested evil is a lack of God - can there be evil in the world then ? Is God with us... or not ? If He is omnipresent, He presided over my children dying and chose to stand idle.

Quote:

Revelations. That is why there is judgement right? Hell is like a giant correctional facility. We were created from God so one day we shall return to Him.
Erm.. that's not you were talking about, you said:

Quote:

Besides, all paths lead to God. Merely existing means that we are essentially good beings. .
And is irrelevant to the topic anyway.

Gotterdammerung 05-Aug-2006 09:32

Re: Why did God kill my unborn children ?
 
Nope I have nothing. Just mindless babble.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Grashnak
That's nice, but we are talking about Earth remember - God is omnipresent here isn't He ? So back to your origional statement - you suggested evil is a lack of God - can there be evil in the world then ? Is God with us... or not ? If He is omnipresent, He presided over my children dying and chose to stand idle.

Yep. Earth is a place of both good and evil. God is for those who choose Him, but also not present for those who don't.

Saint Sinner 05-Aug-2006 21:28

closed by request


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