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-   -   Why did God kill my unborn children ? (https://forums.utopiatemple.com/showthread.php?t=68961)

Grashnak 08-Apr-2006 08:10

Why did God kill my unborn children ?
 
Last year my wife & I concieved twice both times the fetus died. The first time the pregnancy was some way in & so took quite some time & a huge amount of pain & blood for my wifes body to expel the unborn child.

Why would God kill my unborn children do you guys think ? Were their thoughts (if they even had any) immoral and so deserved death as the wages of sin ? It cannot be anything to do with our athiestic lives since 'the sins of thy father are not thine own'.

BTW - hats off to any of the faithful who can answer this question well.

Gotterdammerung 08-Apr-2006 09:41

First off, I am sorry to hear what has happened.

No one here can tell you 'why' exactly God took your children, especially when trying to explain to someone who doesn't necessarily believe in God in the first place (correct me if I am wrong). The answer for the faithful would be that God knows best and faith is the answer to overcoming the question of 'why.' All there is is faith.

Isouttahere 08-Apr-2006 09:41

ah Grashnak, I am sorry to hear about your loss of two children. My brother died of cot-death before I was born so although I cannot personally know how it feels, my mum certainly can.

From what I can see, you're asking the age-old question about why there is death and pain in our world. I haven't done any study or read any books on the topic (incedentially, the next book of my 'to-read list' is How Long oh Lord, by D. A. Carson, which is about reflections on suffering and evil.)

But the simple answer is: because we live in a fallen world.

My advice would be to seek out some councelling with a christian minister, or even to ask a few questions. If they are worth their salt, they should be able explain with a far greater degree of ability than people such as myself on a board such as this one.

Perhaps I will be able to give you a more in-depth answer when I chew my way through this book. rather than speaking out of ignorance, as alot of people tend to do.

Gus Mackay 08-Apr-2006 11:21

It's unfortunate that these things happen. But that's because we don't live in a perfect world and we have turned our backs on God. God originally intended Earth to be a paradise but we screwed up, and we now have sin, death, plague and pestilence.

God didn't kill your unborn children. That's just the bad nature of the world we live in.

Bernel 08-Apr-2006 11:44

Re: Why did God kill my unborn children ?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Gus Mackay
It's unfortunate that these things happen. But that's because we don't live in a perfect world and we have turned our backs on God. God originally intended Earth to be a paradise but we screwed up, and we now have sin, death, plague and pestilence.

Those bacteria and parasites didn't just happen. If God created everything else he created them too. On purpose. Just as he created that tree of knowledge and put it in Eden. On purpose. We didn't just screw up, Gud rigged the game so that we would screw up. If God doesn't want us to turn his back to him, why doesn't he show himself so we know which way to turn? It's hard to be sure not to turn your back on the invisible man!

Horrible things happen because there is no God, because God wants it to happen, or because he just doesn't care. Based on the ingenuity of some parasites I must say that God seems to have taken a certain perverted pleasure in coming up with ways to torment us.

Gus Mackay 08-Apr-2006 14:04

That's not what happened originally. When God withdrew following the fall, the Earth was left to sin. Everything bad has come from that.

In regards to the tree of knowledge being present there, I don't doubt that it was a test.

Lord Menchalior 08-Apr-2006 14:59

My condolences Grashnak, death is always a tradical, death of new born or unborn is something I cannot even think of how much pain that would bring to someone.

Have you heard test of Job? He went that exact things thru and worse. Job was obidient servant of God as you are atheist, but it doesn't mean god would not test peoples who have abandoned him, as God never abandon's a person.

There are two sides fighting from our souls I believe. Devil and God. And they both test peoples to see how they endure the hardhips and what is their reaction...

But I believe that your unborn child is now a better place. As all kids are born innocent... I know these word's will not comfort you much. But your questions are same that have plagued mankind's since dawn of time... Why... Nobody cannot answer that for you. You must find that answer yourself...

Bernel 08-Apr-2006 15:00

Re: Why did God kill my unborn children ?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Gus Mackay
That's not what happened originally. When God withdrew following the fall, the Earth was left to sin. Everything bad has come from that.

I thought you were a creationist? Do I remember wrong? How can entire branches of the animal kingdom have appeared by themselves if you don't believe in evolution?

I saw something about a totally wierd discussion on a Christian forum about predators not having existed before the fall combined with the knowledge that the were predators in the Cambrian, thus leading someone to the conclusion that the fall really took place in precamprian days.

Quote:

In regards to the tree of knowledge being present there, I don't doubt that it was a test.
God created humans with curiosity. He must have realised that given enough time sooner or later we would give in to temptation. If God didn't intend this he is stupid, which sort of contradicts the assumptions of what a God is supposed to be like.

Besides, why this extreme test? Why not just give us a slap on the fingers, "I told you not to do that". Doesn't condemning all of Earth to permanent misery seems kind of extreme to you? I could imagine putting some candy on a table and tell kids not to touch it, but I wouldn't use a shotgun if they did.

Caelis666 08-Apr-2006 16:31

Re: Why did God kill my unborn children ?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Gus Mackay
It's unfortunate that these things happen. But that's because we don't live in a perfect world and we have turned our backs on God. God originally intended Earth to be a paradise but we screwed up, and we now have sin, death, plague and pestilence.

God didn't kill your unborn children. That's just the bad nature of the world we live in.

We have turned our back on God, and for that, 2 children die? It's for reasons like that, that I want to have nothing to do with religion, even if I am not an atheist. Especially Christians have a sick, twisted way of using horrible things as a punishment from God. Children, and especially babies, have nothing to do with the 'sins' of humanity. Killing innocent people because other people have turned their back on God doesnt seem like something a forgiving God would do.

If I would have to answer the original question, I say it's because God, if he/she/it exists, is a force of nature and does not know of compassion. I do not share the view of Christianity that humanity was created after God's image. That is a very arrogant thing to take for granted in my opinion. Therefor you should not expect God to share our morals. The loss of a child is terrible, but not something that God 'chose' for. It, unfortunately, just happens.

Samurai Pooh 08-Apr-2006 22:16

My personal view is that if their is a God, he simply does not care about us. Or cares very little. Or simply does not have the power to do anything about it. Or purposefully causes pain. Who knows?

Gus Mackay 09-Apr-2006 00:10

Quote:

My personal view is that if their is a God, he simply does not care about us. Or cares very little. Or simply does not have the power to do anything about it. Or purposefully causes pain. Who knows?
Everything of this world is to be temporary. Pain is fleeting on the time scale we experience it compared to eternity.

Quote:

We have turned our back on God, and for that, 2 children die? It's for reasons like that, that I want to have nothing to do with religion, even if I am not an atheist. Especially Christians have a sick, twisted way of using horrible things as a punishment from God. Children, and especially babies, have nothing to do with the 'sins' of humanity. Killing innocent people because other people have turned their back on God doesnt seem like something a forgiving God would do.
Same deal. For the most, God leaves the world to its own devices. God is interested about our salvation, and if we have to endure pain to get there, so be it. Think of it as 'no pain, no gain' principle. That may sound harsh, but that's just the way the world is.

Quote:

I thought you were a creationist? Do I remember wrong? How can entire branches of the animal kingdom have appeared by themselves if you don't believe in evolution?
I believe in a deteriating (sp) evolution after the fact, which for me explains the loss of genetic data and the rising of disease. I don't doubt that evolution occurs - it happens everyday - but looking at the timescale and looking at even the most rapid evolution we can see today, there is no possible way for that to have become an incredibly complex organism in the millions of years it supposedly took. Similarly, cells have a multi-reliance on a number of its parts. Without one of these parts, the cells simply cannot survive. This would imply an evolution so improbable since the cells at the time didn't have the genetic information to know exactly what was needed that it becomes nearly impossible. Unless of course, there was a divine influence in creation.

Quote:

God created humans with curiosity. He must have realised that given enough time sooner or later we would give in to temptation. If God didn't intend this he is stupid, which sort of contradicts the assumptions of what a God is supposed to be like.
We were perfect before the fall. It's not unreasonable to ignore temptation. God is perfect and does it everyday (;

Acadian9 09-Apr-2006 02:37

geez dude, that reaqlly sucks. i've never had a child before or even tried to have 1 so i dont know wut its like. but i doubt its gods fault. its either terrible luck or some medical problem i guess. sorry bout ur losses

Samurai Pooh 09-Apr-2006 03:10

Re: Why did God kill my unborn children ?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Gus Mackay
Everything of this world is to be temporary. Pain is fleeting on the time scale we experience it compared to eternity.

Not for those of us who believe the mere (possibly) 70 year life span is all we have. Until there is irrefutable proof of the afterlife, I will not be satisfied with an unlived tormented life. And hopefully neither will you.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gus Mackay
We were perfect before the fall. It's not unreasonable to ignore temptation. God is perfect and does it everyday

We weren't perfect before the fall, because we were suseptible to temptation, something a perfect being shouldn't be able to do.

Bernel 09-Apr-2006 05:48

Re: Why did God kill my unborn children ?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Gus Mackay
I believe in a deteriating (sp) evolution after the fact, which for me explains the loss of genetic data and the rising of disease.

Then you need to learn more about the very complex adaptations of bacteria and parasites. Things like the HIV-virus aren't just degenerated, they are highly specialised killing machines, and some parasites are much worse. For that matter, if there was no disease before the fall, why would God have given us an immune system so presumably that extremely complex system must have evelolved too.
Quote:

I don't doubt that evolution occurs - it happens everyday - but looking at the timescale and looking at even the most rapid evolution we can see today, there is no possible way for that to have become an incredibly complex organism in the millions of years it supposedly took. Similarly, cells have a multi-reliance on a number of its parts. Without one of these parts, the cells simply cannot survive. This would imply an evolution so improbable since the cells at the time didn't have the genetic information to know exactly what was needed that it becomes nearly impossible. Unless of course, there was a divine influence in creation.
Argument by ignorance doesn't work. Just because you don't understand how it could happen doesn't mean it couldn't happen. In fact, researchers are piece by piece puzzling together how it did.
Quote:

We were perfect before the fall. It's not unreasonable to ignore temptation. God is perfect and does it everyday (;
I'd say that flooding the world or tormenting Job just to see what would happen was giving in to temptation in a big way. You just think God is perfect because you've defined perfection as what God does. And as Condemned explains, we can't have been perfect before the fall.

Caelis666 09-Apr-2006 16:50

Re: Why did God kill my unborn children ?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Gus Mackay
Same deal. For the most, God leaves the world to its own devices. God is interested about our salvation, and if we have to endure pain to get there, so be it. Think of it as 'no pain, no gain' principle. That may sound harsh, but that's just the way the world is.

Wrong. That's how you believe the world to be.

Besides, leaves the world to its own devices? According to christianity, God created those devices. So in the end, your God is a sadist.

Lord Menchalior 09-Apr-2006 22:00

Definition of Sadist is person who enjoys causing pain to others. You cannot say God is a sadist, as you do not know if God enjoys causing pain... I doubt that seriously personally.

God created lot's of things, but men corrupted a lot things that were not corrupted when God created those. What God created, man can corrupt it, well, most of those things... That is my humble opinion.

God knows what happends in world, but he has promised to respect man's free will and due that, he cannot directly interfeare, not until its time to fill prophesies... God is rarely direct interaction with this world, due man's free will, so he uses a lot... undirect interaction, that will not breake man's free will... JMHO.

Gus Mackay 09-Apr-2006 23:34

So be it - if you view my God as a sadist, it matters little. I've seen God, I know LM has seen God, and I know many other Christians who have seen God. We can bury our heads in the sands and think 'oh but I don't want to believe in a God who does 'X''. Newsflash: we're not on this earth because of you.

The entire purpose of earth is a test. We're constantly being tested to see if we can be trusted with true riches. It matters little in the long-run if we experience pain, because as Maynard Keynes once said 'in the long-run we're all dead'.

You may not believe in God, or believe in God but just think that he's an ahole, but that's just life. God doesn't need to be nice to exist. Read the OT - He's not a lovely dovey God. He is also God of forgiveness. But this does not equate to God holding our hand through every part of our everyday lives. If horrible things have happened or evolved then that's just life. Blaming God will do you no good.

Samurai Pooh 10-Apr-2006 02:57

Re: Why did God kill my unborn children ?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Gus Mackay
Blaming God will do you no good.

Neither will thanking or praising him, yet you silly Christians do it all the time :rolleyes:

Strat Attack 10-Apr-2006 03:26

Re: Why did God kill my unborn children ?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Condemned
Neither will thanking or praising him, yet you silly Christians do it all the time :rolleyes:

You view is obviously a very narrow one, I pity you, now go live in your own self-sentered world.

Im sorry for your loss, but nobody can really say why it happened, who knows if god was the one responsible..has anyone considered that death exists because of Satan and he is the one who kills..God has nothing to do with it?

If you want logic, imagine if every creature that ever existed was still alive, the human population would supposidly be + 60 billion. Overpopulation is bad enough..its not a nice way to look at things but it could be considered population control.

Crumby 10-Apr-2006 03:40

Sorry to hear that Grashnak.

Thats the point of view if you believe in heavon Condemned.
You are sad that they died, but you know they are in a much better place God has prepared.

Bernel 10-Apr-2006 06:43

Re: Why did God kill my unborn children ?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Strat Attack
Im sorry for your loss, but nobody can really say why it happened, who knows if god was the one responsible..has anyone considered that death exists because of Satan and he is the one who kills..God has nothing to do with it?

This is possible only if you deny that God is omnipotent and replace it with a concept of two equally powerful Gods fighting for power. When Satan appears in the book of Job he seems to be a good friend of God given their chattting while Satan torments Job and kills people surrounding him indiscriminately.

Lord Menchalior 10-Apr-2006 09:58

Devil wishes only to seek ways to destroy God and his creations men... For his hatred is bottomless pit of darkness BUT we cannot know how entities like God and devil react each others, we cannot assume they would behave like human's. So they might be very well a dialogue between God and devil, as they agreed on that pact for men's soul...

Who knows why but this, like everything else is dicated by your own point of view...

Caelis666 10-Apr-2006 10:37

Re: Why did God kill my unborn children ?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Strat Attack
You view is obviously a very narrow one, I pity you, now go live in your own self-sentered world.

Im sorry for your loss, but nobody can really say why it happened, who knows if god was the one responsible..has anyone considered that death exists because of Satan and he is the one who kills..God has nothing to do with it?

If you want logic, imagine if every creature that ever existed was still alive, the human population would supposidly be + 60 billion. Overpopulation is bad enough..its not a nice way to look at things but it could be considered population control.

You call someone narrowminded because you do not agree with him? Ehm.. :rolleyes:

If God did not want it to happen, according to Christianity, he could have stopped it. He did not, therefor he/she/it would be responsible.
And if you are almighty, how about, instead of killing children, just making a bigger world to control population? Or only kill old folks?
I'd rather burn in hell then say yes and Amen to a God that's as morally corrupted as most religions believe him/her/it to be.

Gus Mackay 10-Apr-2006 11:32

Just because Human morality/lack of does not sit with God, does not mean you are correct.

God does not take a predominant role in our lives. That's just how things are. This world is a test. It's not paradise and things will go wrong. That's just life.

Quote:

I'd rather burn in hell then say yes and Amen to a God that's as morally corrupted as most religions believe him/her/it to be.
Suit yourself.

Lord Menchalior 10-Apr-2006 11:46

Re: Why did God kill my unborn children ?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by caelis666
You call someone narrowminded because you do not agree with him? Ehm.. :rolleyes:

If God did not want it to happen, according to Christianity, he could have stopped it. He did not, therefor he/she/it would be responsible.
And if you are almighty, how about, instead of killing children, just making a bigger world to control population? Or only kill old folks?
I'd rather burn in hell then say yes and Amen to a God that's as morally corrupted as most religions believe him/her/it to be.

We'll world was a lot bigger before men started to meddle with it. Nature controlled birth, hard work, hard living. Then came medicines that took away a lot diseases and helped population explosion... So over population is actually man's fault. God might be almighty but he chose to gave us freewill, that he will not temper with, even he is almighty, that doesn't mean he should use all of his powers and then limit our free will... JMHO.

Caelis666 10-Apr-2006 16:49

Re: Why did God kill my unborn children ?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Gus Mackay
Just because Human morality/lack of does not sit with God, does not mean you are correct.

That's the funny thing about morals. They are personal, so you cant be correct or incorrect. I dont expect God to take over mine, just as I wont take over the morals of a God that I do not agree with.

And as has been pointed out in several threads already, the existance of an all-knowing God excludes the possibility of free will.

Gus Mackay 10-Apr-2006 23:32

According to whom? According to our own logic? According to our own logic, the Universe arose out of nothing :rolleyes: Wow, that's logical... So if Humans are often illogical, we can't possibly judge God. We want to subject God to Human standards when God isn't Human. Further, God would not constantly use His omnipotence in action since as I've already said, pain and suffering on this Earth is only temporary, is a result from the fall, and is a way to see if we're capable of handling true riches.

Happy Sid 11-Apr-2006 00:49

Quote:

the Universe arose out of nothing
No, the Universe never 'arose' at all, or at least we cannot determine this with any certainty.

But the notion of a being who allows children to be miscarried or stillborn, and still claims to love us? The notion of a being who refuses to eliminate this being 'Satan' even though he could (because he's omnipotent)? A being who, in effect, places a pot of boiling water on the floor, puts a child next to it, leaves the room, and is surprised when the child hurts himself?

*That* is illogical. People talk about age-old questions, but it has as much relevance now as it ever did; Why does God allow such evil to exist in this world, when his omnipotence allows him to destroy it?

tylerrrrr 11-Apr-2006 00:52

sorry for your loss, but my family has a history of doing this as my grandma and my cousin both have had a miscarriage. Although no words can make up for your loss God always has a plan and what we may not understand will make sense in the end.

Gus Mackay 11-Apr-2006 01:20

Re: Why did God kill my unborn children ?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Lodewijk
No, the Universe never 'arose' at all, or at least we cannot determine this with any certainty.

But the notion of a being who allows children to be miscarried or stillborn, and still claims to love us? The notion of a being who refuses to eliminate this being 'Satan' even though he could (because he's omnipotent)?

That's just life. This life isn't meant to be perfect.

Quote:

*That* is illogical. People talk about age-old questions, but it has as much relevance now as it ever did; Why does God allow such evil to exist in this world, when his omnipotence allows him to destroy it?
God can't be around sin and evil. As I keep saying, God allows it because it serves a function in this world - that is to sort wheat from the chaff.

Caelis666 11-Apr-2006 11:23

Re: Why did God kill my unborn children ?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Gus Mackay
That's just life. This life isn't meant to be perfect.

God can't be around sin and evil. As I keep saying, God allows it because it serves a function in this world - that is to sort wheat from the chaff.

Life isnt meant to be perfect? Why not? Because God doesnt want us to have good times.

Sort wheat from the chaff? Wait, wasnt it God who made the wheat and the chaff? Wouldnt it be a lot easier to just make wheat? And if not, why would he/she/it need sorting, he/she/it knows everything already, no?

Lord Menchalior 11-Apr-2006 12:50

Just because he has powers beyod our imagination, knows everything that happends, he cannot interfeare, because he gave us free will, so we could determ our own destinies without being affected by entities directly...

Just becuase you have power and knowledge, that doesn't mean you need to use 'em...

QuantumChaos 11-Apr-2006 13:06

Grashnak, my condolenses on the loss of your 2 unborn children. My sister had a miscarriage last year as well, so I've seen first hand the pain it can bring.

But I do not believe this is a question of "Why, God?" This, in my opinion, is the unfortunate way of our world, where 33% of pregnancies end like this. With the exception of the Big Bang, Jesus, Abraham, and perhaps Moses, I really don't believe God has put anything directly into our lives. This, I would say, is the unfortunate luck of the draw.

God has always been one to let us live our own lives, and not to interfere. This, to me, seems to be one of those situations. Once again, my condolences, and I wish you and your wife luck in the future.

Strat Attack 11-Apr-2006 15:46

Re: Why did God kill my unborn children ?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by caelis666
You call someone narrowminded because you do not agree with him? Ehm.. :rolleyes:

If God did not want it to happen, according to Christianity, he could have stopped it. He did not, therefor he/she/it would be responsible.
And if you are almighty, how about, instead of killing children, just making a bigger world to control population? Or only kill old folks?
I'd rather burn in hell then say yes and Amen to a God that's as morally corrupted as most religions believe him/her/it to be.


nah i called him narrow minded because of his comment about my faith...im not silly because of what i believe..im opened minded and accept other religions, i may not agree with them totally, but i dont go out of my way to make anti-religious comments.

remember that according to the bible humans were sent to earth for the sins of adam and eve..who said life was ment to be perfect.

And why do people always look to blame others when unexplained things happen?..bah...anyways..why cant God be almighty and not have 100% control over humans...God gave people the right to choose our path, and if thats the case maybe by being given that choice we aren not 100% subject to God will.

As for Satan, he might be as powerful as God, he is essentially Gods opposite, Satan may not have direct control over people but maybe he can still influence them...im just saying that it shouldnt be ruled out that Satan didnt have a hand in it?

Thack 11-Apr-2006 17:26

Re: Why did God kill my unborn children ?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Gus Mackay
So if Humans are often illogical, we can't possibly judge God. We want to subject God to Human standards when God isn't Human.

Wouldn't you consider that the wider Christian doctrine does this also? "God is good, God is kind, God is merciful" and so forth.

Grashnak, sorry to hear about your loss. God works in mysterious ways. As do Allah, Zeus and the great flying Spaghetti monster. Tis a great shame that none of them have much regard for people and their problems, really.

Happy Sid 12-Apr-2006 11:38

Quote:

As for Satan, he might be as powerful as God, he is essentially Gods opposite, Satan may not have direct control over people but maybe he can still influence them...im just saying that it shouldnt be ruled out that Satan didnt have a hand in it?
I feel like hitting something every time Christians bring up Satan. Simply because, if God was all-powerful, why on earth doesn't he just make Satan disappear? That he chooses to let Satan wreak havoc is tantamount to, at-best, depraved indifference, and at worst, complicit participation in evil.

Not to mention the explicit acts of evil like sending a giant flood to destroy everything. Real nice guy, no?

Gus Mackay 12-Apr-2006 12:08

How many times do we have to explain the Christian point of view? God allows it because this world is impermanent. Bad things are part of life. That's just the way it is. That's how our God works. I'm not asking you to believe in it (not at the moment anyways) so stop repeating the same thing over and over. We've already given you the Christian belief, and that's the end of that. You don't need to believe the same thing - that's your own choice. We've already told you the truth. It's up to you to decide for yourself if you want to continue misplacing your faith in Humanity.

Happy Sid 12-Apr-2006 12:12

Quote:

God allows it because this world is impermanent. Bad things are part of life. That's just the way it is. That's how our God works.
What you have not justified is how such a point of view is consistent with a merciful God. Saying 'that's how our God works' is not an explanation at all, it's a restatement of any possible objection. It's untenable to claim that there is a merciful God, who allows awful things to happen.

What I would love is some biblical evidence to support your oft-repeated point of view.

Gus Mackay 12-Apr-2006 12:41

Re: Why did God kill my unborn children ?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Lodewijk
What you have not justified is how such a point of view is consistent with a merciful God. Saying 'that's how our God works' is not an explanation at all, it's a restatement of any possible objection. It's untenable to claim that there is a merciful God, who allows awful things to happen.

What I would love is some biblical evidence to support your oft-repeated point of view.

I use the vengefulness of God in the OT as the example of how God doesn't kid about in dealing with our lives, and I use the forgiveness and acts of Jesus in the NT to show that while God can often be harsh, He is also be fair and gives us all a chance.

My Biblical support?

Quote:

Heb 12:25-29 (Phi) So be sure you do not refuse to hear the voice that speaks. For if they who refused to hear those who spoke to them on earth did not escape, how little chance of escape is there for us if we refuse to hear the One who speaks from Heaven. Then his voice shook the earth, but now he promises: "Yet once more will I make to tremble not the earth only, but also the heaven." This means that in this final "shaking" all that is impermanent will be removed, that is, everything that is merely "made", and only the unshakable things will remain. Since then, we have been given a kingdom that is "unshakable", let us serve God with thankfulness in the ways which please him, but always with reverence and holy fear. For it is perfectly true that our God is a burning fire.

That's a nice excerpt.

Dusk Illz 12-Apr-2006 14:10

Re: Why did God kill my unborn children ?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Grashnak
Last year my wife & I concieved twice both times the fetus died. The first time the pregnancy was some way in & so took quite some time & a huge amount of pain & blood for my wifes body to expel the unborn child.

Why would God kill my unborn children do you guys think ? Were their thoughts (if they even had any) immoral and so deserved death as the wages of sin ? It cannot be anything to do with our athiestic lives since 'the sins of thy father are not thine own'.

BTW - hats off to any of the faithful who can answer this question well.

You, perhaps uninentionally, raise an interesting point: if something that hasn't been born can die, what actually is 'death' then? The opposite of birth, or rather the opposite of life.. or perhaps actually neither? Since you speak of killing the unborn, you indicate that life starts before birth, which seems highly reasonable considering the development of the fetus in the womb. However, it becomes a lot more tricky when you realize that as a result, the 'life' you speak of doesn't seem to have an actual starting point. It surely didn't begin at some point halfway during pregnancy, so perhaps it must've been at conception? But if the fusion of the sperm and egg cell was the starting point of a new life, then it is also clear that this can't be much of an actual 'start', since that sperm & egg that developed into your child's embryo were already alive in you and your wife long before conception. Even more, before the conception of you and your wife, that same genetic material that largely makes up you and your children existed in, and to some degree spread out over, both your various ancestors. And that's only as far as form and substance is concerned, 'spiritually' speaking it would be even harder to speak of isolatable individuals that 'begin' and 'end'.

While this may all very well seem like gibberish, or simply not of any help, what it points towards for me, is that nature does not believe in the same individuality that we do. Put more accurately, our *concept* of individuality does not correspond to reality very well: where life at the fundamental level shows mainly continuity and interrelatedness, we instead frame our thoughts in terms of decontextualized abstractions, static 'things', seperate building blocks, individual lives, and so forth. The notions of Life and Death, instinctively 'real' as they may seem to you, are actually mere cognitive constructs, the inevitable result of seeing things divorced from their context. The terms do not do justice to what really goes on. Before your children were born, the energy that would eventually form them existed already. At some point those 'energies' converged and took shape temporarily, only to later inevitably diffuse again. Those energies still exist today, as energy isn't created or destroyed, merely transformed. My point: at the level of reality nothing died, although to you it certainly seemed so.

I hope i'm not out of line going this far. I'm aware my rant could be interpreted as highly disrespectful to somebody that just lost his children, and it's certainly not my intention to hurt anybody. Please be assured up front that i say this all with the deepest compassion and respect. I'm merely attempting to shed light on an issue that i believe deserves a lot more than to be framed in terms of God, Satan, Atheism and Sin.

Isouttahere 15-Apr-2006 04:10

To try and answer you Grashnak.....
Carson makes a very good point in the book I've been reading, and I agree with him.
It seems to him, that we are viewing these events from the wrong perspective. I've summarised his arguement below.

One of the most helpful passages is Luke 13:1-5. so if you're still reading this and you've got a bible handy Grasnak, look it up.
Basically, some people come to Jesus with a report about how Pilate has slaughtered some people. Their view was that these people must have been greater sinners than anyone else. Read Jesus' response.

1. He doesn't assume that these people did not deserve their fate. But infact he tells those listening that unless they repent, they too will perish. So Jesus assumes that all death is in one way or another a result of sin and therefore deserved.
2. He does insist that death by such means is no evidence whatsoever that those who suffer in this way are any more wicked than those that escape such a fate, but that all deserve to die. death by this way is no more than they deserve. But that does not mean that others deserve any less. rather, the implication is that it is only God's mercy that has kept them alive, certainly no moral superiority.
3. Jesus treats war and natural disasters not as agenda items in a discussion of the mysterious ways of God, but as incentives to repentance. it is as though God uses these happenings as a megaphone to call attention to our guilt and the imminence of his judgement. See Amos 4 where this arguement is developed.

Disaster is a call to repentance. Jesus might have added (as he does elsewhere) that peace and tranquility, which we do not deserve, show us God's goodness and forebearance.

It is the mark of our lostness that we invert these two. we think we deserve the times of blessing and prosperity, and that the times of war and disaster are not only unfair but come very close to questioning God's goodness, his power and perhaps his existance.
Jesus doesn't see it this way, and we need to make fundamental realignments to our assessments of ourselves.


Dusk: some very interesting thoughts, which make sense for the most part, but I might not take it as far as you.

Samurai Pooh 17-Apr-2006 01:07

Re: Why did God kill my unborn children ?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Strat Attack
nah i called him narrow minded because of his comment about my faith...im not silly because of what i believe..im opened minded and accept other religions, i may not agree with them totally, but i dont go out of my way to make anti-religious comments.

If you were truly open minded, you would have understood I was simply pointing out the hypocrisy of thanking a God for blessings while at the same time disavowing him of any responsibility for his curses.

Quote:

And why do people always look to blame others when unexplained things happen?..bah...anyways..why cant God be almighty and not have 100% control over humans...God gave people the right to choose our path, and if thats the case maybe by being given that choice we aren not 100% subject to God will.
Actually, free will does not exist. Not according to the Christian religion anyway. But I don't have time to explain it to someone I doubt is willing to listen.

Quote:

remember that according to the bible humans were sent to earth for the sins of adam and eve..who said life was ment to be perfect.
Who said life wasn't meant to be perfect?

Oh yeah...God...

Fuck Him.

Grashnak 17-Apr-2006 19:47

Re: Why did God kill my unborn children ?
 
Firstly, thank you to all that have offered kind words. It was a difficult time last year but we have been able to move on.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Crumby
Sorry to hear that Grashnak.

Thats the point of view if you believe in heavon Condemned.
You are sad that they died, but you know they are in a much better place God has prepared.

Are they ? They had not experienced the world at all - how can they possibly cope in 'a better place' they have no mind to speak of or experience to draw from. Also, since they are 'tainted' with origional sin they are now in hell so all they know or will ever know is pain and suffering.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dannoman
1. He doesn't assume that these people did not deserve their fate. But infact he tells those listening that unless they repent, they too will perish. So Jesus assumes that all death is in one way or another a result of sin and therefore deserved.
2. He does insist that death by such means is no evidence whatsoever that those who suffer in this way are any more wicked than those that escape such a fate, but that all deserve to die. death by this way is no more than they deserve. But that does not mean that others deserve any less. rather, the implication is that it is only God's mercy that has kept them alive, certainly no moral superiority.
3. Jesus treats war and natural disasters not as agenda items in a discussion of the mysterious ways of God, but as incentives to repentance. it is as though God uses these happenings as a megaphone to call attention to our guilt and the imminence of his judgement. See Amos 4 where this arguement is developed.

Disaster is a call to repentance. Jesus might have added (as he does elsewhere) that peace and tranquility, which we do not deserve, show us God's goodness and forebearance.

But how does a fetus know how to repent ? How should a fetus pray for forgiveness ? You really think that Jesus believes my unborn children deserved death ? What peace and tranquility will Thingy 1st & Thingy 2nd ever get ? How can a God be considered 'merciful' & 'good' by subjecting an eternity of pain and torment and such small & seriously under developed children ??

Am not trying to score points here - just cannot understand why people can believe God is benevolent when He does things like this... only a daily, probably even less than 15 minutely basis. I hear of fundimenatist christians decrying abortion clinics for thier 'murders' and at the same time believe it's ok for God to do the exact same thing. Sure I can understand belief in God - but 'good' and merciful seem just absurd when hell & babies are involved.

Sorry if I end up ranting and rehashing old arguments, difficult to remain objective about such an emotive subject so close to home.

Lord Menchalior 17-Apr-2006 23:57

its said, all chidlren are God's and their names are in book of life, until they are old enough ( 9 to 15 I guess ) to make the choice themselves. If they die before that, they are considered pure hearted, innocent children of God who are granted places in heavens...

Its different matter wether you want to believe this

Grashnak 18-Apr-2006 09:27

Re: Why did God kill my unborn children ?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Lord Menchalior
its said, all chidlren are God's and their names are in book of life, until they are old enough ( 9 to 15 I guess ) to make the choice themselves. If they die before that, they are considered pure hearted, innocent children of God who are granted places in heavens...

Its different matter wether you want to believe this

Does it say that in the Bible anywhere ? As far as I am aware there is no such passage. This is one of the reasons that the Catholic church invetory purgatory which is slightly better than hell for all these children.

Gus Mackay 18-Apr-2006 09:35

Re: Why did God kill my unborn children ?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Grashnak
Does it say that in the Bible anywhere ? As far as I am aware there is no such passage. This is one of the reasons that the Catholic church invetory purgatory which is slightly better than hell for all these children.

It says that everyone will have a chance to accept Christ into their lives. Some theologians have pointed to parts of the Bible where Jesus preaches about the innocence of children as evidence of their automatic salvation if they have not had a chance to know God.

Grashnak 18-Apr-2006 12:05

Re: Why did God kill my unborn children ?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Gus Mackay
It says that everyone will have a chance to accept Christ into their lives. Some theologians have pointed to parts of the Bible where Jesus preaches about the innocence of children as evidence of their automatic salvation if they have not had a chance to know God.


Are you sure about that - don't recall any passage(s) about that either. Anyway, how can a fetus possibly comprehend the existance of God let alone accept Jesus. It sounds like an invention to get out of the fact that Jesus says 'The only way to the Father is through me' and a fetus cannot possibly know Jesus.

KnightoftheNite 20-Apr-2006 17:59

God does not always work in ways we can understand. He has his reasons, but a small and insignificant human mind may not be able to understand them.

Grashnak 20-Apr-2006 18:07

Re: Why did God kill my unborn children ?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by KnightoftheNite
God does not always work in ways we can understand. He has his reasons, but a small and insignificant human mind may not be able to understand them.

You are right there - I have no idea why God killed my children & condemned them to an eternity in hell. I have *really* no idea why people think He is benevolent.

Greeney 20-Apr-2006 18:10

Re: Why did God kill my unborn children ?
 
Quote:

Are you sure about that - don't recall any passage(s) about that either. Anyway, how can a fetus possibly comprehend the existance of God let alone accept Jesus. It sounds like an invention to get out of the fact that Jesus says 'The only way to the Father is through me' and a fetus cannot possibly know Jesus.
Quote:

Originally Posted by Grashnak
You are right there - I have no idea why God killed my children & condemned them to an eternity in hell. I have *really* no idea why people think He is benevolent.

I don't enjoy defending Christianity, but I do believe that according to the religion anyone under who dies before they turn seven (Judaism - 13, Islam - 15) goes to heaven anyway.

Grashnak 20-Apr-2006 18:16

Re: Why did God kill my unborn children ?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Greeney
I don't enjoy defending Christianity, but I do believe that according to the religion anyone under who dies before they turn seven (Judaism - 13, Islam - 15) goes to heaven anyway.

Know of any scripture to back this up ? Nothing in the Bible or as far as I have seen.

Despite me asking for several days no one has been able to show that my children are not in hell. Only part I know is:

"I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one can come to the Father except through me."

My children did not know Jesus, therefore they are not with the Father.

Bernel 20-Apr-2006 19:04

Re: Why did God kill my unborn children ?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Grashnak
"I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one can come to the Father except through me."

My children did not know Jesus, therefore they are not with the Father.

This is the traditional interpretation, but if you read the words all Jesus says is that he decides who will be allowed to enter, not what rules he uses to make the decision. To find those you'll have to read the rest of the gospels. (assuming that Jesus really were the son of God and that the gospels are reasonably accurate accounts of what he said) The God of the Old Testament would send your kids to hell for not following the letter of the law, but Jesus doesn't strike me as a man who'd do it.

Where Greeney gets his figures for ages I don't know. There is a reason why most Christian denominations switched to baptizing children soon after birth. They believed that unbaptized children couldn't go to heaven, nor were they buried on hallowed ground. I suspect this interpretation has more to do with the Church wanting power over everyone than on scripture, however.

Grashnak 20-Apr-2006 19:39

Re: Why did God kill my unborn children ?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Bernel
This is the traditional interpretation, but if you read the words all Jesus says is that he decides who will be allowed to enter, not what rules he uses to make the decision. To find those you'll have to read the rest of the gospels. (assuming that Jesus really were the son of God and that the gospels are reasonably accurate accounts of what he said)

I have read the gospels and I can't see where that interpretation comes from. The rest of John 14 makes (to me at least) it even clearer that this is a very specific, non-negitioable point - for example:

Do not let your hearts be troubled. Trust in God; trust also in me. In my Father's house are many rooms; if it were not so, I would have told you. I am going there to prepare a place for you. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and take you to be with me that you also may be where I am. You know the way to the place where I am going."
Jesus the Way to the Father
Thomas said to him, "Lord, we don't know where you are going, so how can we know the way?"

Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. If you really knew me, you would know[b] my Father as well. From now on, you do know him and have seen him."

I just don't see how that can be interpreted in another way.

Quote:

The God of the Old Testament would send your kids to hell for not following the letter of the law, but Jesus doesn't strike me as a man who'd do it.
Neither me - but then turn the page and read John 15....

I am the vine; you are the branches. If a man remains in me and I in him, he will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing. If anyone does not remain in me, he is like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned. If you remain in me and my words remain in you, ask whatever you wish, and it will be given you. This is to my Father's glory, that you bear much fruit, showing yourselves to be my disciples.

I guess as we are both unbelievers, our children were pruned.

Shades 15-Jun-2006 07:43

Re: Why did God kill my unborn children ?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Grashnak
Last year my wife & I concieved twice both times the fetus died. The first time the pregnancy was some way in & so took quite some time & a huge amount of pain & blood for my wifes body to expel the unborn child.

Why would God kill my unborn children do you guys think ? Were their thoughts (if they even had any) immoral and so deserved death as the wages of sin ? It cannot be anything to do with our athiestic lives since 'the sins of thy father are not thine own'.

BTW - hats off to any of the faithful who can answer this question well.

I personally don't think that God killed your children...Or "Took" them away to live with him in heaven. To consider yourself a real bible based christian and belive this, is absurd.(The second and third sentence goes to the people who replied with that..Not to you)

From the biblical standpoint it's because of our inheritence of sin from Adam, which is with us as soon as we are concieved.

Quote:

Psalms 51:5 "Look! With error I was brought forth with birth pains, and in sin my mother concieved me". NWT
Quote:

Romans 5:12 "That is why, just as through one man sin entered into the world and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men because they had all sinned.NWT"
So no, God's not responsible for your childrens death. A genetic flaw is.(But indirectly Adam, Eve and that idiot Satan are)

Grashnak 15-Jun-2006 13:04

Re: Why did God kill my unborn children ?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Shades
I personally don't think that God killed your children...Or "Took" them away to live with him in heaven. To consider yourself a real bible based christian and belive this, is absurd.(The second and third sentence goes to the people who replied with that..Not to you)

From the biblical standpoint it's because of our inheritence of sin from Adam, which is with us as soon as we are concieved.

That's contradictory - God has decided that my unborn children should suffer because of an ancestor's actions thousands of years in the past. No one else has decided & implimented this policy but God himself. It is by God's will that that sin is transferred - God could have revoked this policy at any time, yet clearly believes it should stay for whatever purpose He has in mind. Clearly it is by God's will that he killed my unborn children.

Lord Menchalior 15-Jun-2006 21:36

Do unborn babies suffer if they die beofre they are born? I believe based on Bible that you, Grashnak, your unborn baby did not suffered when he died and God has taken his soul, as its innocent as it can be to the heavens to eternal joy without suffering and death.

Of course, that is just my point of view nor I can say I could swore its right. But its what I believe... But I cannot say I understand your loss, I cannot. But all I can say is I am sorry for your loss...

dantendo 16-Jun-2006 02:07

Re: Why did God kill my unborn children ?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Lord Menchalior
Do unborn babies suffer if they die beofre they are born? I believe based on Bible that you, Grashnak, your unborn baby did not suffered when he died and God has taken his soul, as its innocent as it can be to the heavens to eternal joy without suffering and death.

Of course, that is just my point of view nor I can say I could swore its right. But its what I believe... But I cannot say I understand your loss, I cannot. But all I can say is I am sorry for your loss...

I am troubled by the idea that you can use your beliefs to determine when a being can begin to suffer. I would leave this one to the experts - in another thread we have already discussed when a foetus may or may not be able to feel pain, based on the opinions of people who would be more likely to know than you or I. You don't need to turn to a bible to find this sort of information.

Grashnak, I personally don't know if there is a god who did this to you, your wife and your children. If there is, I also can't see how anyone would think he was benevolent after he made things like this happen - and if these things are not under his control, I would have to say that he is obviously not as all powerful as some seem to think.

Lord Menchalior 16-Jun-2006 16:24

Re: Why did God kill my unborn children ?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by dantendo
I am troubled by the idea that you can use your beliefs to determine when a being can begin to suffer. I would leave this one to the experts - in another thread we have already discussed when a foetus may or may not be able to feel pain, based on the opinions of people who would be more likely to know than you or I. You don't need to turn to a bible to find this sort of information.

It depends on level of fetuses development. Yes fetus can feel pain and such after certain point when nerval endings and system has developed. But is baby counsciouss in womb? Or if fetus dies, is like dying in sleep? Unfortunately that is hard to proove in anydirection. Our believes are ours and they define our point of views. Every person have their own point of view.

Doctors around world are still arguing about this matter as two point of views clash together...

dantendo 17-Jun-2006 08:51

Re: Why did God kill my unborn children ?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Lord Menchalior
It depends on level of fetuses development. Yes fetus can feel pain and such after certain point when nerval endings and system has developed. But is baby counsciouss in womb? Or if fetus dies, is like dying in sleep? Unfortunately that is hard to proove in anydirection. Our believes are ours and they define our point of views. Every person have their own point of view.

Doctors around world are still arguing about this matter as two point of views clash together...

And where was that based on the bible? You orginally said:
Quote:

I believe based on Bible that you, Grashnak, your unborn baby did not suffered when he died
This was what I argued against. Your second post I have no problems at all with. Glad to know that we actually have the same opinion after all...

Torlanan 19-Jun-2006 02:43

I can't pinpoint where it is in the bible, but I do know for a fact that in the Old Testament, God did in fact say that any child who died before a certain age was allowed into heaven. I'll see if I can locate it.

One thing you may want to take into consideration is the fact that Christ's death was for the entire world.

"(Jesus) is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world." John 2:2

When Christ died, he not only washed away the sins of people who accept him, but even those that don't. Essentially, I would say that the "age of accountability" varies from person to person. Once someone is capable of making a choice one way or another, they are to be held accountable. That point is not decided by us, but rather by God himself and his knowledge of the specific person.

I don't know if that helps, but it might.

Grashnak 19-Jun-2006 07:38

Re: Why did God kill my unborn children ?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Torlanan
I can't pinpoint where it is in the bible, but I do know for a fact that in the Old Testament, God did in fact say that any child who died before a certain age was allowed into heaven. I'll see if I can locate it.

Gus found this passage:

Deuteronomy 1 : 39
Moreover your little ones, which ye said should be a prey, and your children, which in that day had no knowledge between good and evil, they shall go in thither, and unto them will I give it, and they shall possess it

However it is not talking about paradise - but about Isreal. Taken out of context, sure it looks good but if you read what the chapter is about and the complaints of those that are being responded to it is clear it has nothing to do with Heaven.

Quote:

One thing you may want to take into consideration is the fact that Christ's death was for the entire world.

"(Jesus) is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world." John 2:2

When Christ died, he not only washed away the sins of people who accept him, but even those that don't. Essentially, I would say that the "age of accountability" varies from person to person. Once someone is capable of making a choice one way or another, they are to be held accountable. That point is not decided by us, but rather by God himself and his knowledge of the specific person.

I don't know if that helps, but it might.
Sure, but that dosn't apply to origional sin. Neither does it go past: I am the way, the truth and the life. The only way to the Father is through me - John 14.

Kaosium 13-Jul-2006 14:19

Re: Why did God kill my unborn children ?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Grashnak
You are right there - I have no idea why God killed my children & condemned them to an eternity in hell. I have *really* no idea why people think He is benevolent.

Heh, you still capitalized 'He' though--hedging your bets? :)

I dunno where you get the idea that God 'killed' them, or that they're condemned to an eternity in Hell. Whatever gave you that idea? They're innocent, without sin, they've nothing to answer for. Me, I'll have several eternities in Purgatory to work off, I'm sure. :P

Note the new Pope quietly did away with the idea of 'Limbo' (where unbaptized children were supposed to go instead of heaven--they didn't go to Hell) thus they should go straight to heaven under current Catholic doctrine. Mind you I suspect they always did and God was probably not amused by the collection of sophist theologians the Vatican keeps on hand to help with recruitment, but it's officially changed thus the largest Christian sect assumes your poor children will be in heaven.

However, in the end, only God knows. Your story is tragic, but it was the way of the world for cows and countesses for millenia before modern medicine. Note that if you're going to paradise, more time spend down here amongst the dirt and bugs isn't exactly a blessing. Given my druthers, I'd rather grow up in paradise...

Grashnak 13-Jul-2006 21:52

Re: Why did God kill my unborn children ?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Kaosium
Heh, you still capitalized 'He' though--hedging your bets? :)

No - just trying to be respectful.

Quote:

I dunno where you get the idea that God 'killed' them,
If not God then who ? No one else could have possibly interferred with a fetus in the womb could they ?

Quote:

or that they're condemned to an eternity in Hell. Whatever gave you that idea? They're innocent, without sin, they've nothing to answer for. Me, I'll have several eternities in Purgatory to work off, I'm sure. :P
Did you read the thread ? They have origional sin, not only that, read John 14 - since they were just a few weeks old in the womb they could not have possibly know Jesus and such had no way to get to the Father..

kakaloom 13-Jul-2006 23:55

Uh... I don't really believe in God, so my point will be made on a scientific basis. Perhaps you or your wife are predisposed to a genetic condition that makes it difficult to produce/have children? Sure you could say God gave you these genes, and feel free, I don't really mind, but that is a possibility in my mind. Some people just have it hard when conceiving/nurturing the embryo/fetus, and perhaps your wife is one of those types of people.

It's a tragic loss indeed, I would be devastated at the loss of a child, even that early in the pregnacy. Having 2 children myself, I can partially relate to the pain you must feel. But I don't think it had anything to do with God, if that helps you sleep at night then by all means, I just happen to think you or your wife will have many difficulties with conceiving.

Strat Attack 15-Jul-2006 04:40

im more religious then scientific but id say its hard to say who is responsible..i mean..when it comes to things like birth/death etc....there is a fine line between religion and science..where do they begin/end in regards to life events..

Gotterdammerung 15-Jul-2006 12:30

Can you just not look at the name before reading the post, I have something serious to say for once.

Offen people can not understand why God would let evil reign in this world. The problem is that this is not God's world. We left the garden of eden, under gods guidence, to accept a higher knowledge but to be in the service of satan and his demons in this world. Satan meant that we knew both good and evil and as such could not be with God. Now, with an open mind, see that this is not Gods desire that bad things happen to us in this plain of existence. We have been tricked.

If you are still extra senstive about your lost child don't read the following. I am not going to say that your child was damned to reside with demons forever, rather that as apart of your own soul, your child will be waiting for you in the next life, but only if you accept God as your saviour. You were not given the chance to have a relationship with your child, but I assure you that you will know who that person is once you die. Half of you is in that soul and once you are liberated from this lying place, this existence on earth that is a trickery of demons, both of you will see without misty vision all the truth that was held from you. Ignorance is purely a product of the greed of satan, who withheld most knowledge from us but at the same time promised us knowledge. So once again, I relay to you the importance of striving towards God as best you can. Either Christianity or Islam will do as a minimum, but for the own purity of your soul can I recommend your own heart decide what is true and what is not.

If you want to die and die in a void of ignorance, such will be granted. But if you are really concerned with the greatness of all this, within this universe and beyond, empty your heart for the great God above and he will bless your soul. What you think you know now is nothing compared to what can be known. Disregard your logic for a moment. If you can not, you are fearful, you are ignorant and truely in the grasp of the demon satan. He gives you a little so that you can be denied a lot. Do not be so vain.

kakaloom 15-Jul-2006 17:51

Actually God threw us out because Eve was tempted and sucumbed to Satan. Damn women. :/

chal 15-Jul-2006 20:04

Re: Why did God kill my unborn children ?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Grashnak
Last year my wife & I concieved twice both times the fetus died. The first time the pregnancy was some way in & so took quite some time & a huge amount of pain & blood for my wifes body to expel the unborn child.

Why would God kill my unborn children do you guys think ? Were their thoughts (if they even had any) immoral and so deserved death as the wages of sin ? It cannot be anything to do with our athiestic lives since 'the sins of thy father are not thine own'.

BTW - hats off to any of the faithful who can answer this question well.

I am so sorry for you and your wife's loss. I know your pain and your questions.

That is the most relevant thing I can tell you. Do not over-analyze scripture with such a critical eye in this matter, because it will never give you the answer you need if you seek it in a vain manner.

You have brought up questions about sin...implied, original and others. Please do not be so arrogant as to debate original sin when you do not understand the rest of the story

First, friend, we live on a cursed planet and bad things happen to people for no reason at all. I can lay no blame on God for everything that happens, for God is just. He allowed it to happen, that is obvious, but that does not make Him accountable to us.
He indeed is Sovereign, and God is accountable to no man. I am a Christian and I don't get a free pass on all the heartaches of life . I know that God is not going to send me an angel to let me know why these things happen. I am to trust him, because He is Holy.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that you and I and all of us are still human, whether believers or not...we all get cancer, die in accidents, lose children , siblings, and parents to the grave. You're a human and bad stuff happens to humans...thats the great common denominator of humanity...tribulations.

God does allow things to come into our lives for His purposes. I am not qualified to look behind the curtain and say why, but I will tell you God is Holy and Just.

You have quoted scripture for various reasons...consider this one:

Jhn 9 : 1
And as [Jesus] passed by, he saw a man which was blind from [his] birth.
Jhn 9 : 2
And his disciples asked him, saying, Master, who did sin, this man, or his parents, that he was born blind?
Jhn 9 : 3
Jesus answered, Neither hath this man sinned, nor his parents: but that the works of God should be made manifest in him.

..or consider Job, the righteous man who lost all his family, possessions, and his health...and God did allow Satan to have access to him, because God had put a hedge of protection around Job...

God allowed it to happen, and it was allowed to happen because God was working in Job's life.
I know it doesn't seem fair, but whatever God does is right. It's what and who he is..He IS Holiness.
I will say this much, It's not your fault.

As for the eternal state of your children, please do not be so quick to judge God with his own word in part only. You and I love our children, both living and dead, but God loves them even more than us...He also LOVES US with an even greater love than that...he longs for us to return to him.

David lost his child:
2Sa 12 : 19 But when David saw that his servants whispered, David perceived that the child was dead: therefore David said unto his servants, Is the child dead? And they said, He is dead.

.......

2Sa 12 : 21 Then said his servants unto him, What thing [is] this that thou hast done? thou didst fast and weep for the child, [while it was] alive; but when the child was dead, thou didst rise and eat bread.


2Sa 12 : 22 And he said, While the child was yet alive, I fasted and wept: for I said, Who can tell [whether] GOD will be gracious to me, that the child may live?

2Sa 12 : 23 But now he is dead, wherefore should I fast? can I bring him back again? I shall go to him, but he shall not return to me.

Mercy and Love are as much a part of what God is as Holiness is.

Your child and possibly more than a Billion other children who were aborted in this world are with God.

I hope this was some comfort to you.

Grashnak 15-Jul-2006 21:23

Re: Why did God kill my unborn children ?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Gotterdammerung
..

Thanks for sharing your personal interpreatation of your faith. Have you any scripture to back any of these assertions up or is purely your own invention ?

Quote:

Originally Posted by chal
That is the most relevant thing I can tell you. Do not over-analyze scripture with such a critical eye in this matter, because it will never give you the answer you need if you seek it in a vain manner.

Over analyze ? I have practically not analysed it at all. I have asked if anyone can show me scripture to counter what Jesus says quite plainly.

Quote:

You have brought up questions about sin...implied, original and others. Please do not be so arrogant as to debate original sin when you do not understand the rest of the story
So I am arrogant for reading and attempting to interpret the Bible ? Is understanding not to be found there without special training ? Don't remember anything like that in the Bible - a disclaimer or warning that you cannot understand it's teachings without some special training. Perhaps you would be kind enough to point this out to me.

Quote:

God does allow things to come into our lives for His purposes. I am not qualified to look behind the curtain and say why, but I will tell you God is Holy and Just.
Good to admit you have no idea what God really thinks, am dam suspicous of anyone who claims otherwise or claims to know what happens in paradise - but then why do you assert He is just ? God is unknowable isn't He ? How can you assign such a compliment when you yourself admit you have no idea as to His motives ?

Quote:

You have quoted scripture for various reasons...consider this one:

Jhn 9 : 1
And as [Jesus] passed by, he saw a man which was blind from [his] birth.
Jhn 9 : 2
And his disciples asked him, saying, Master, who did sin, this man, or his parents, that he was born blind?
Jhn 9 : 3
Jesus answered, Neither hath this man sinned, nor his parents: but that the works of God should be made manifest in him.
Not sure how that is relevant. Except if you are saying my unborn children were killed by God manifesting Himself in them. Perhaps you could expand on this somewhat for me.

Quote:

..or consider Job, the righteous man who lost all his family, possessions, and his health...and God did allow Satan to have access to him, because God had put a hedge of protection around Job...

God allowed it to happen, and it was allowed to happen because God was working in Job's life.
I know it doesn't seem fair, but whatever God does is right.
For His own means perhaps, pity my poor unborn children didn't get a say in the matter.

Quote:

I will say this much, It's not your fault.
Maybe it is - the cause could be down to something as simple as my poor diet, problems that early in the pregnancy are poorly understood.

Quote:

David lost his child:
Does David speak for God himself then ? Did David get insight into Heaven itself and given knowledge of it's business as usual workings ? Don't see that anywhere in the Bible.

Quote:

Mercy and Love are as much a part of what God is as Holiness is.

Your child and possibly more than a Billion other children who were aborted in this world are with God.
Does make God awfully cruel. Not only on the fetus itself but on the mother & father. Little mercy has been shown to the poor fetus.

Quote:

I hope this was some comfort to you.
It did not, but I thank you for trying (I do mean that sincerly)

chal 16-Jul-2006 01:08

Re: Why did God kill my unborn children ?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Grashnak
Thanks for sharing your personal interpreatation of your faith. Have you any scripture to back any of these assertions up or is purely your own invention ?

be more specific and i will I am not sure which interpretations you are refering to(this is not a wise-crack)


Quote:

Over analyze ? I have practically not analysed it at all. I have asked if anyone can show me scripture to counter what Jesus says quite plainly.
I merely meant that you must compare scripture with scripture in a good study Bible in a more modern tongue(can't believe I said that). I WILL give that a proper answer, but not a quick one. Probably Tuesday or later...sorry

Quote:

So I am arrogant for reading and attempting to interpret the Bible ? Is understanding not to be found there without special training ? Don't remember anything like that in the Bible - a disclaimer or warning that you cannot understand it's teachings without some special training. Perhaps you would be kind enough to point this out to me.
That would be my error to say you are arrogant, but it was more of a cautionary statement so the error lies in me for posting in that manner. It is very impotant that we check our attitudes

1Cr 2 : 12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.
1Cr 2 : 13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
1Cr 2 : 14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know [them], because they are spiritually discerned.

..you can't just grab a Bible and use it as a how-to manual...it is not a recipe, nor is it a Crazy-8 ball that you can ask questions to.
I'm just saying that there is another way to approach scripture when you are seeking...don't stop reading the Bible and don't entrust others no matter who(even me) to tell you all you need to know.

..and you will not be able to reason out with a natural mind the things of God they are spiritually discerned...revealed by God...to believers. Not just the casual reader ...however God can do what he wants to do and several examples are given in scripture about persistence.
If you truly want answers then bug God about it...a lot...until you get your answer, but remember what the verse says.. The natural man (non-Christian) cannot know or reason out the things of God...(they are revealed) and He can reveal himself/your answer to you if he so pleases... see v.14.

Quote:


Good to admit you have no idea what God really thinks, am dam suspicous of anyone who claims otherwise or claims to know what happens in paradise -
kNOW WHAT HE THINKS??:
Isa 55 : 8 For my thoughts [are] not your thoughts, neither [are] your ways my ways, saith the LORD.
Isa 55 : 9 For [as] the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts


THINGS/PARADISE REVEALED:

theres info here and there about heaven in the NT...will put some together for you later.
1Cr 2:9 But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.
1Cr 2:10 But God hath revealed [them] unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.

Quote:

but then why do you assert He is just ? God is unknowable isn't He ? How can you assign such a compliment when you yourself admit you have no idea as to His motives ?
He IS Holy...He is the very definition of Holy in its purest sense and he cannot be less than holy
Lev 11 : 44 For I [am] the LORD your God: ye shall therefore sanctify yourselves, and ye shall be holy; for I [am] holy:
Lev 11 : 45 For I [am] the LORD that bringeth you up out of the land of Egypt, to be your God: ye shall therefore be holy, for I [am] holy.
Lev 19 : 2 Speak unto all the congregation of the children of Israel, and say unto them, Ye shall be holy: for I the LORD your God [am] holy.
Isa 48 : 17 Thus saith the LORD, thy Redeemer, the Holy One of Israel; I [am] the LORD thy God....

Mal 3:6 For I [am] the LORD, I change not;...

HIS MOTIVE:
2Pe 3 : 9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

Quote:

Not sure how that is relevant. Except if you are saying my unborn children were killed by God manifesting Himself in them. Perhaps you could expand on this somewhat for me.
Made manifest is different than manifesting himself in them...but that is a moot point in this matter...in a nutshell, it happened so that God would be able to do a work, supernatural or otherwise(that's what "manifesting Himself" means) in the lives of the blind man and those around him. In other words what I'm trying to say is that there is a purpose ...just because something terrible happens does not mean that all the results will be bad...although I do not presume to tell you to look at the silver lining, I am merely answering your request.

Quote:

For His own means perhaps, pity my poor unborn children didn't get a say in the matter.
nobody ever does


Quote:

Maybe it is - the cause could be down to something as simple as my poor diet, problems that early in the pregnancy are poorly understood.
That is splitting hairs, is fault the same as blame?
what is unintentional fault called??
Quote:

Does David speak for God himself then ? Did David get insight into Heaven itself and given knowledge of it's business as usual workings ? Don't see that anywhere in the Bible.
Yes.
Yes.
David had been "possessed by the Holy Spirit in his life...in those days the Spirit of God would "come upon" persons whom he would do great things through...as for his knowledge I daresay his intimate knowledge and relationship with God was/is greater than many in the Bible. God called him "a man after God's own heart"...can't beat that title.
Act 13 : 22 And when he had removed him, he raised up unto them David to be their king; to whom also he gave testimony, and said, I have found David the [son] of Jesse, a man after mine own heart, which shall fulfil all my will.

He had relationship with and knowledge of God in a very personal manner. You can take his word to the bank.

Quote:

Does make God awfully cruel. Not only on the fetus itself but on the mother & father. Little mercy has been shown to the poor fetus.
God is merciful, but this fallen world system is not. God does not mind when we question him...go to God with your broken heart...He will hear you...He lost a son too.

Quote:

It did not, but I thank you for trying (I do mean that sincerly)
I will redouble my efforts but computer access is awful at home..I will check in Tuesday.

I have a rep for being harsh and I so very much do not wish to hurt feelings or offend, but rather to share what I know...I know I also ramble...srry

You are in my family's prayers tonight...when I get home.

Kaosium 16-Jul-2006 03:10

Re: Why did God kill my unborn children ?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Grashnak
If not God then who ? No one else could have possibly interferred with a fetus in the womb could they ?

Well, lemme just say I don't want to answer that. If you wanna blame God, go ahead. I don't think you'll reach enlightenment that way but it's better than me pointing out the obvious to a bereaved potential parent. :(



Quote:

Originally Posted by Grashnak
Did you read the thread ? They have original sin, not only that, read John 14 - since they were just a few weeks old in the womb they could not have possibly know Jesus and such had no way to get to the Father..


This issue has been considered for millenia, originally the RCC came to the conclusion souls like that went to Limbo, quite recently that idea was considered invented by imperfect humans. The current positions is they go directly to heaven, do not pass 'go' and do not collect 200 dollars.

Gotterdammerung 16-Jul-2006 05:33

Re: Why did God kill my unborn children ?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Grashnak
If not God then who ? No one else could have possibly interferred with a fetus in the womb could they ?

And why not?

Quote:

Did you read the thread ? They have origional sin, not only that, read John 14 - since they were just a few weeks old in the womb they could not have possibly know Jesus and such had no way to get to the Father..
It's up to you. Do you want your child to go to heaven? Have you ever thought of asking God nicely? You will be with your child in heaven if you play yours cards right.

kataloom:

Quote:

Actually God threw us out because Eve was tempted and sucumbed to Satan. Damn women. :/
Don't blame women. Eve was only a metaphor for an entity or indentity for today's humans and this doesn't necessarily mean that women are literally responcible. Evidently, we all are. Nor was it necessarily due to weakness, as satan did actually do what he said he would do which was to give us knowledge. At the time this probably wasn't the worst choice, it was just unfortuante that at the time we didn't see the deception. To this day some people still don't see the deception.

kakaloom 16-Jul-2006 13:36

Not to go off on a tangent, but the Bible can be taken in many ways. You took that part as a metaphor, I can take it as it is. Though, I have no religious belief whatsoever right now, I still know some of the Bible. Hell, you could even go as far as saying that because she came from a man's rib, she was in turn man, so it was our fault as well.

I'm not blaming her for her choice, but society does. Ever wonder why women get treated less than we do? Eve.

Do you plan on trying to have another child Grashnak?

Grashnak 16-Jul-2006 21:09

Re: Why did God kill my unborn children ?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by chal
be more specific and i will I am not sure which interpretations you are refering to(this is not a wise-crack)

Was not aimed at you, but Gotts.

Quote:

I merely meant that you must compare scripture with scripture in a good study Bible in a more modern tongue(can't believe I said that). I WILL give that a proper answer, but not a quick one. Probably Tuesday or later...sorry
Will look forward to it, clearly this is a temporary reply and as such will leave alone until you have time to construct this properly.

Quote:

That would be my error to say you are arrogant, but it was more of a cautionary statement so the error lies in me for posting in that manner. It is very impotant that we check our attitudes
I know what you mean, when I often want to respond I find myself tired and things don't always find myself writing my thoughts clearly.

Quote:

1Cr 2 : 12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.
1Cr 2 : 13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
1Cr 2 : 14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know [them], because they are spiritually discerned.

..you can't just grab a Bible and use it as a how-to manual...it is not a recipe, nor is it a Crazy-8 ball that you can ask questions to.
I'm just saying that there is another way to approach scripture when you are seeking...don't stop reading the Bible and don't entrust others no matter who(even me) to tell you all you need to know.

..and you will not be able to reason out with a natural mind the things of God they are spiritually discerned...revealed by God...to believers. Not just the casual reader ...however God can do what he wants to do and several examples are given in scripture about persistence.
If you truly want answers then bug God about it...a lot...until you get your answer, but remember what the verse says.. The natural man (non-Christian) cannot know or reason out the things of God...(they are revealed) and He can reveal himself/your answer to you if he so pleases... see v.14.
This seems false, that a person cannot know the ways of God without following God. However I don't believe most followers of God, no matter how devout have a better understanding to well read & studied atheists. Even if you compare equally devout christians they will differ somewhat in critcal points of faith. For example Catholics vs Calvinists.

Quote:

kNOW WHAT HE THINKS??:
Isa 55 : 8 For my thoughts [are] not your thoughts, neither [are] your ways my ways, saith the LORD.
Isa 55 : 9 For [as] the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts
So... we agree that no human can know His thoughts ?

Quote:

THINGS/PARADISE REVEALED:

theres info here and there about heaven in the NT...will put some together for you later.
1Cr 2:9 But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.
1Cr 2:10 But God hath revealed [them] unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.
So.... we agree that no man has any concious idea of what happens in paradise, only our spirit has the chance of seeking the truth ?

Quote:

He IS Holy...He is the very definition of Holy in its purest sense and he cannot be less than holy
Lev 11 : 44 For I [am] the LORD your God: ye shall therefore sanctify yourselves, and ye shall be holy; for I [am] holy:
Lev 11 : 45 For I [am] the LORD that bringeth you up out of the land of Egypt, to be your God: ye shall therefore be holy, for I [am] holy.
Lev 19 : 2 Speak unto all the congregation of the children of Israel, and say unto them, Ye shall be holy: for I the LORD your God [am] holy.
Isa 48 : 17 Thus saith the LORD, thy Redeemer, the Holy One of Israel; I [am] the LORD thy God....

Mal 3:6 For I [am] the LORD, I change not;...
Don't disagree here. If He exists, by definition, He must be Holy.

Quote:

HIS MOTIVE:
2Pe 3 : 9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
How can this be true though ? If He is all powerful - then why do some perish. More particually my dead children - He clearly either failed to save them (which is impossible if He tried to act to save them since He is all powerful) or He deliberatly killed them (in conflict with that passage) or He simply did not care at all and so did nothing to save them (conflict with thew above passage).

Quote:

Made manifest is different than manifesting himself in them...but that is a moot point in this matter...in a nutshell, it happened so that God would be able to do a work, supernatural or otherwise(that's what "manifesting Himself" means) in the lives of the blind man and those around him. In other words what I'm trying to say is that there is a purpose ...just because something terrible happens does not mean that all the results will be bad...although I do not presume to tell you to look at the silver lining, I am merely answering your request.
And this is the problem in a nutshell. What good could possibly come from first creating, then killing my children and according to scripture condeming them to hell.

Quote:

That is splitting hairs, is fault the same as blame?
what is unintentional fault called??
An accident of course, however this point is going waaay off topic. I will leave it alone.

Quote:

Yes.
Yes.
David had been "possessed by the Holy Spirit in his life...in those days the Spirit of God would "come upon" persons whom he would do great things through...as for his knowledge I daresay his intimate knowledge and relationship with God was/is greater than many in the Bible. God called him "a man after God's own heart"...can't beat that title.
Act 13 : 22 And when he had removed him, he raised up unto them David to be their king; to whom also he gave testimony, and said, I have found David the [son] of Jesse, a man after mine own heart, which shall fulfil all my will.

He had relationship with and knowledge of God in a very personal manner. You can take his word to the bank.
I take your word on that one. However it does leave some unanswered questions. Could David be saying he is going to hell to meet his deceased child? It does not say. Since the child would have been baptised and mine had not, is the situation comparable ? Lastly, This was changed in the NT when Jesus said 'there is no way to father but through me', this was after David and changed the rules.

Quote:

God is merciful, but this fallen world system is not. God does not mind when we question him...go to God with your broken heart...He will hear you...He lost a son too.
Thank you for the kind words, I will not respond as it to attack this point is to attack your faith directly.

Quote:

I will redouble my efforts but computer access is awful at home..I will check in Tuesday.

I have a rep for being harsh and I so very much do not wish to hurt feelings or offend, but rather to share what I know...I know I also ramble...srry

You are in my family's prayers tonight...when I get home.
Thankyou for your time & efforts. However we are both atheists and so your prayers may be going to waste..

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kaosium
Well, lemme just say I don't want to answer that. If you wanna blame God, go ahead. I don't think you'll reach enlightenment that way but it's better than me pointing out the obvious to a bereaved potential parent.

Blame God ? No, we are both atheists. Just my interpretation of the scriptures. Have yet to see anything scripture that suggests otherwise.

Quote:

This issue has been considered for millenia, originally the RCC came to the conclusion souls like that went to Limbo, quite recently that idea was considered invented by imperfect humans. The current positions is they go directly to heaven, do not pass 'go' and do not collect 200 dollars.
Does God's will change with the seasons then ? Does the scripture change with changing morality in the world ? No. Limbo is not mentioned in the Bible, nor as far as I can see does Jesus and what he says will happen to my children in John 15 : 6, as clear as it gets really:

Jn15 : 6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gotterdammerung

And why not?

Go on then explain - are you saying perhaps aliens attacked my wifes uterus ?

Quote:

It's up to you. Do you want your child to go to heaven? Have you ever thought of asking God nicely? You will be with your child in heaven if you play yours cards right.
Why should it be up to me ? 'The sins of thine father are not thine own' - dosn't matter what I do, the odds of my childrens fate were decided long before this thread started.

Sister Klon 17-Jul-2006 01:09

I didn't post in here because I was certain people would talk about Chapter 18 in the book of Luke.

15(V)And they were bringing even their babies to Him so that He would touch them, but when the disciples saw it, they began rebuking them.

16But Jesus called for them, saying, "Permit the children to come to Me, and do not hinder them, for the kingdom of God belongs to such as these.

17"Truly I say to you, (W)whoever does not receive the kingdom of God like a child will not enter it at all."

wether a fetus qualifies as a child is debateable.

Gotterdammerung 17-Jul-2006 05:52

Re: Why did God kill my unborn children ?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Grashnak
Was not aimed at you, but Gotts.

He can answer for me if he wants!

Quote:

Go on then explain - are you saying perhaps aliens attacked my wifes uterus ?
Aliens, kind of. Demons and other nasties more specifically. God would not take your child and damn them for he is completely good. This probably sounds absurd to you, but that's sometime you'll need to overcome. All that's in your way is belief.

Quote:

Why should it be up to me ? 'The sins of thine father are not thine own' - dosn't matter what I do, the odds of my childrens fate were decided long before this thread started.
Ah, but the good will of thine father can be thine own. This has nothing to do with a negative thing, like a sin, it is about redeemption of good and honest intention. This would be of course be Gods specialty. Pray hard while you still can. If you believe in a predetermined fate then you have already lost. You have to believe that you can pray for your child by first cleaning your own soul. The fate of your child is still very much in the hands of God.

Samurai Pooh 19-Jul-2006 13:51

Re: Why did God kill my unborn children ?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Gotterdammerung

Aliens, kind of. Demons and other nasties more specifically. God would not take your child and damn them for he is completely good. This probably sounds absurd to you, but that's sometime you'll need to overcome. All that's in your way is belief.

And I suppose that when a woman is menstrating she is actually passing concentrated evil out of her body. Also, all those people dying of AIDS in Africa are actually being cut down by the demon of pestilence. Right now I'm being haunted by a demon named insomnia. Somebody get me a priest with some holy water!

All that stands in your way is belief!

Gotterdammerung 21-Jul-2006 07:37

Re: Why did God kill my unborn children ?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Condemned
And I suppose that when a woman is menstrating she is actually passing concentrated evil out of her body. Also, all those people dying of AIDS in Africa are actually being cut down by the demon of pestilence. Right now I'm being haunted by a demon named insomnia. Somebody get me a priest with some holy water!

All that stands in your way is belief!

A priest could do nothing, they themselves are offen demonic. There is nothing wrong with your insomnia. God wants strength not weakness. If you have the strength to believe then God might grant you sleep, but if he does not then pray harder. It is this act which is important, regardless of the outcome.

mallreeyyss 21-Jul-2006 23:25

i sleep fine and i dont believe in god.maybe im just a freak of nature? :lol

P a r a 21-Jul-2006 23:38

Re: Why did God kill my unborn children ?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Gotterdammerung
A priest could do nothing, they themselves are offen demonic. There is nothing wrong with your insomnia. God wants strength not weakness. If you have the strength to believe then God might grant you sleep, but if he does not then pray harder. It is this act which is important, regardless of the outcome.

So everybody that has insomnia is weak? please :rolleyes:

Grashnak 22-Jul-2006 10:18

Re: Why did God kill my unborn children ?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Sister Klon
I didn't post in here because I was certain people would talk about Chapter 18 in the book of Luke.

15(V)And they were bringing even their babies to Him so that He would touch them, but when the disciples saw it, they began rebuking them.

16But Jesus called for them, saying, "Permit the children to come to Me, and do not hinder them, for the kingdom of God belongs to such as these.

17"Truly I say to you, (W)whoever does not receive the kingdom of God like a child will not enter it at all."

wether a fetus qualifies as a child is debateable.

More to the point, the children have to still activly seek out Jesus or at taken to Jesus to recieve His blessing. As God allowed my children to be created to athiest parents - they were doomed.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gotterdammerung
Aliens, kind of. Demons and other nasties more specifically. God would not take your child and damn them for he is completely good. This probably sounds absurd to you, but that's sometime you'll need to overcome. All that's in your way is belief.

Oh I see now it was the demons. Remind me, who created them ? Would like to speak to their creator and blame them for the damage they have done to the wife, myself and of course my children.

Quote:

Ah, but the good will of thine father can be thine own. This has nothing to do with a negative thing, like a sin, it is about redeemption of good and honest intention. This would be of course be Gods specialty. Pray hard while you still can. If you believe in a predetermined fate then you have already lost. You have to believe that you can pray for your child by first cleaning your own soul. The fate of your child is still very much in the hands of God.
That's a nice way of thinking, any scripture to back this up or is still just your own very unique faith ?

Gotterdammerung 04-Aug-2006 02:30

Re: Why did God kill my unborn children ?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Grashnak
Oh I see now it was the demons. Remind me, who created them ? Would like to speak to their creator and blame them for the damage they have done to the wife, myself and of course my children.

God indirectly created evil. That's the way it is. The question of 'why' is not clear. There is no reason but for the reason to have no apprent reason. If we knew why exactly he created evil we could dispute an all-powerful being, which I would believe would be more contridictory than this dualist situation.

Quote:

That's a nice way of thinking, any scripture to back this up or is still just your own very unique faith ?
Probably somewhere in scripture I would say. So what if it wasn't.

Gotterdammerung 04-Aug-2006 04:31

Alternatively, we may question if evil even really exists.

Quote:

The university professor challenged his students with this question.

"Did God create everything that exists?"

A student bravely replied, "Yes, he did!"

"God created everything?" The professor asked.

"Yes sir", the student replied.

The professor answered, "If God created everything, then God created evil, since evil exists, and according to the principal that our works define who we are, then God is evil".

The student became quiet before such an answer. The professor, quite pleased with himself, boasted to the students that he had proven once more that the Christian faith was a myth.

Another student raised his hand and said, "Can I ask you a question professor?"

"Of course", replied the professor.

The student stood up and asked, "Professor, does cold exist?"

"What kind of question is this? Of course it exists. Have you never been cold?" The students snickered at the young man's question.

The young man replied, "In fact sir, cold does not exist. According to the laws of physics, what we consider cold is in reality the absence of heat. Every body or object is susceptible to study when it has or transmits energy, and heat is what makes a body or matter have or transmit energy. Absolute zero (-460 F) is the total absence of heat; all matter becomes inert and incapable of reaction at that temperature. Cold does not exist. We have created this word to describe how we feel if we have no heat."

The student continued, "Professor, does darkness exist?"

The professor responded, "Of course it does."

The student replied, "Once again you are wrong sir, darkness does not exist either. Darkness is in reality the absence of light. Light we can study, but not darkness. In fact we can use Newton's prism to break white light into many colors and study the various wavelengths of each color. You cannot measure darkness. A simple ray of light can break into a world of darkness and illuminate it. How can you know how dark a certain space is? You measure the amount of light present. Isn't this correct? Darkness is a term used by man to describe what happens when there is no light
present."

Finally the young man asked the professor, "Sir, does evil exist?"

Now uncertain, the professor responded, "Of course as I have already said. We see it every day. It is in the daily example of man's inhumanity to man. It is in the multitude of crime and violence everywhere in the world. These manifestations are nothing else but evil."

To this the student replied, "Evil does not exist sir, or at least it does not exist unto itself. Evil is simply the absence of God. It is just like darkness and cold, a word that man has created to describe the absence of God. God did not create evil. Evil is not like faith, or love that exist just as does light and heat. Evil is the result of what happens when man does not have God's love present in his heart. It's like the cold that comes when there is no heat or the darkness that comes when there is no light."

The professor sat down.
Besides, all paths lead to God. Merely existing means that we are essentially good beings.

Grashnak 04-Aug-2006 08:12

Re: Why did God kill my unborn children ?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Thousand Swords
God indirectly created evil. That's the way it is. The question of 'why' is not clear. There is no reason but for the reason to have no apprent reason. If we knew why exactly he created evil we could dispute an all-powerful being, which I would believe would be more contridictory than this dualist situation.

I don't need to know 'why' he did it - scripture says that it is impossible to know His mind. Just like I don't care why Irish terrorists nearly killed my family. When someone kills someone close to you, motive is not really important to you.

Quote:

Probably somewhere in scripture I would say. So what if it wasn't.
Then it has no bearing on God - your personal opinion of how God works is just that. It has no bearing on reality if Gods words via scripture do not back you up.

Quote:

... cheesy tale.
The student is wrong, darkness does exist. We happen to measure the luminesance of an area as it is practical for calculations (since they are both based on energy) but there is no reason why we cannot measure it's converse and use measurements of the lack of light. Same goes for the lack of heat energy.

Besides God is supposed to be omnipresent isn't he ? How can there ever be a lack of God ?

Quote:

Besides, all paths lead to God. Merely existing means that we are essentially good beings. .
Any scripture to back that up ?

Downwithgravity 04-Aug-2006 14:49

I'm sorry for your loss but you have to understand that from the moment they are created, all things have an end. The end may occur within a millisecond for certain subatomic particles or after billions of years for stars.

There aren't any reasons behind it, God is not to blame, it's just how the universe works.

Grashnak 04-Aug-2006 17:07

Re: Why did God kill my unborn children ?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Downwithgravity
There aren't any reasons behind it, God is not to blame, it's just how the universe works.

He isn't ? Then who is ? God is the creator, He allowed our children to be created & presumably gave it a soul. He created the circumstances surrounding the lives of my wife, me & our children. If He wanted them to live they would, apparently He did not.

Saint Sinner 04-Aug-2006 20:40

Re: Why did God kill my unborn children ?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Grashnak
He isn't ? Then who is ? God is the creator, He allowed our children to be created & presumably gave it a soul. He created the circumstances surrounding the lives of my wife, me & our children. If He wanted them to live they would, apparently He did not.

God didnt create the circumstances surrounding you or anyone else for that matter, others did... you did by your choices and by your actions. God did a lot but one of the things he did that I really enjoy is he gave us free will so that we can make our own mistakes and either learn from them or make them again untill we do. Just as we teach our children how to stand yet allow them to fall so that they may learn to stand on their own, so does God, our father, do the same for us.


I could respond to every comment you have made but I simply dont have the time.
So I will instead give you some words to think on and some advise ...

Put it to rest my friend, I understand what you are going through because I have went through the same, I have asked the same questions that you now ask. I have debated and argued and in the end came away with no answers that satisfied me. I wanted a perfect ending, I wanted an answer.
I've learned, the hard way, that some poems don't rhyme, and some stories don't have a clear beginning, middle, and end. Life is about not knowing, having to change, taking the moment and making the best of it, without knowing what's going to happen next.

I think its time you set your bible down and instead of looking for the answers there you put your faith in God and look to your own heart, for only there does the true answer lay.

Besides, the bible is not so much a rulebook as it is a set of guidelines ;)

In the end though, In the world to come, we shall not be asked, "Why were you not Moses?" but instead be asked, "Why were you not yourself?"

No matter what you decide to do, be it follow my advice or ignore my post completly, my thoughts and prayers are with you and your family as they have always been since the first time I read about what happened.

Grashnak 05-Aug-2006 07:55

Re: Why did God kill my unborn children ?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Saint Sinner
God didnt create the circumstances surrounding you or anyone else for that matter, others did... you did by your choices and by your actions.

Ah ! I see now, thanks for clearing that one up. BTW - who created me & these others ? Who created the others that affected them & their choices, who is the ultimate creator ? Does theis creator know all ? Did He know that by creating the world in this way it did it would utimatly kill my children ?

BTW - exactly what choices do we as a couple make to kill our children ?

Quote:

God did a lot but one of the things he did that I really enjoy is he gave us free will so that we can make our own mistakes and either learn from them or make them again untill we do. Just as we teach our children how to stand yet allow them to fall so that they may learn to stand on their own, so does God, our father, do the same for us.
What does free will have to do with all this ? Are you suggesting that my children used their free will to kill themselves ?

Quote:

I could respond to every comment you have made but I simply dont have the time.
Please take all the time you want, the thread has been open for months, I can wait as long as required for you to prepare a complete response. The only time limits are set by the forum itself.

Quote:

So I will instead give you some words to think on and some advise ...

Put it to rest my friend, I understand what you are going through because I have went through the same, I have asked the same questions that you now ask. I have debated and argued and in the end came away with no answers that satisfied me. I wanted a perfect ending, I wanted an answer.
I've learned, the hard way, that some poems don't rhyme, and some stories don't have a clear beginning, middle, and end. Life is about not knowing, having to change, taking the moment and making the best of it, without knowing what's going to happen next.
Then you have my sympathies, I would disagree there is no answer though, I found it.

Quote:

I think its time you set your bible down and instead of looking for the answers there you put your faith in God and look to your own heart, for only there does the true answer lay.

Besides, the bible is not so much a rulebook as it is a set of guidelines ;)
But the Bible did answer my question. John chapter 15 is very clear on the subject. The 'guidelines' in this case apply exactly to my case.

Quote:

In the end though, In the world to come, we shall not be asked, "Why were you not Moses?" but instead be asked, "Why were you not yourself?"

No matter what you decide to do, be it follow my advice or ignore my post completly, my thoughts and prayers are with you and your family as they have always been since the first time I read about what happened.
Thank you, I do appricate the kind words. They were unfortunate events but we have both got past them now.

To be honest Sasi this thread has outlived it's purpose, you might as well close it. I asked: 'Why did God kill my children' and I found the answer myself, John Chapter 15.

Gotterdammerung 05-Aug-2006 09:06

Re: Why did God kill my unborn children ?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Grashnak
Then it has no bearing on God - your personal opinion of how God works is just that. It has no bearing on reality if Gods words via scripture do not back you up.

I don't think all scripture is reality either. There are many takes on scripture also so it is not as concrete as you might think.

Quote:

Besides God is supposed to be omnipresent isn't he ? How can there ever be a lack of God ?
Free-will. For instance, Hell is described as a place very distant from God. Furthest from the light, if you will.

Quote:

Any scripture to back that up ?
Revelations. That is why there is judgement right? Hell is like a giant correctional facility. We were created from God so one day we shall return to Him.

Grashnak 05-Aug-2006 09:21

Re: Why did God kill my unborn children ?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Thousand Swords
I don't think all scripture is reality either. There are many takes on scripture also so it is not as concrete as you might think.

OK - so do you have any substance to any of your statements at all ? Any intrepretation of the scriptures that show this is not God's doing or that He is somehow not responable ? Anything at all?

Quote:

Free-will. For instance, Hell is described as a place very distant from God. Furthest from the light, if you will.
That's nice, but we are talking about Earth remember - God is omnipresent here isn't He ? So back to your origional statement - you suggested evil is a lack of God - can there be evil in the world then ? Is God with us... or not ? If He is omnipresent, He presided over my children dying and chose to stand idle.

Quote:

Revelations. That is why there is judgement right? Hell is like a giant correctional facility. We were created from God so one day we shall return to Him.
Erm.. that's not you were talking about, you said:

Quote:

Besides, all paths lead to God. Merely existing means that we are essentially good beings. .
And is irrelevant to the topic anyway.

Gotterdammerung 05-Aug-2006 09:32

Re: Why did God kill my unborn children ?
 
Nope I have nothing. Just mindless babble.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Grashnak
That's nice, but we are talking about Earth remember - God is omnipresent here isn't He ? So back to your origional statement - you suggested evil is a lack of God - can there be evil in the world then ? Is God with us... or not ? If He is omnipresent, He presided over my children dying and chose to stand idle.

Yep. Earth is a place of both good and evil. God is for those who choose Him, but also not present for those who don't.

Saint Sinner 05-Aug-2006 21:28

closed by request


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