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Armitage 11-Feb-2008 22:55

Make Me A Muslim
 
Make Me A Muslim [Ep 1 | Part 1 of 5]


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LNB6mAF1tO4


Make Me A Muslim [Ep 2 | Part 1 of 5]


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LdkJICH-i7A


Make Me A Muslim [Ep3 | Part 1 of 5]


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ot2rPGhZInc


Description from Channel 4:
Quote:

Can Islam help repair the moral fabric of British society? To test it out, Imam Ajmal Masroor asks six non-Muslims and one lapsed Muslim to follow Islamic teachings for three weeks. The six come from Harrogate, in Yorkshire, a town with very few ethnic minority inhabitants.

How will the six volunteers cope with living according to the laws of the Qur'an?
This is documention/experiment quite interesting. Hope you'll all watch it.

Caelis666 11-Feb-2008 23:09

Re: Make Me A Muslim
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Armitage (Post 1626679)
This is documention/experiment quite interesting. Hope you'll all watch it.

Seriously? Do you like seeing your faith prosituted like a cheap MTV rip-off?

Armitage 11-Feb-2008 23:28

Watch it first of all, then tell me if it was a MTV rip-off ok? :)

peace

Lord Menchalior 17-Feb-2008 22:58

Changing religion wouldn't repair problem of british society. It would just change problems to other's. Religion itself cannot repair a thing. But peoples have to do themselves.

Currently I cannot see Christianity or Islam answer to any problem. Answer is your faith God alone and not organized religion, which has long ago gone into woods.

Armitage 17-Feb-2008 23:20

Re: Make Me A Muslim
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Lord Menchalior (Post 1627571)
Changing religion wouldn't repair problem of british society. It would just change problems to other's. Religion itself cannot repair a thing. But peoples have to do themselves.

Currently I cannot see Christianity or Islam answer to any problem. Answer is your faith God alone and not organized religion, which has long ago gone into woods.

Some participants have seen positive changes from this even though this experiment was only for 3 weeks which isnt alot time to master problems. I suggest you watch the whole documentary and then ask yourself, if those people changed in any significant way.

peace

Lord Menchalior 18-Feb-2008 01:21

it does make good point but still Islam would not be viable solution, since british culture is not based on Islam. Redefining entire culture would take tremendous effort and extremist islamistic don't actually give good impression of Islam in the west at the moment.

One problem for muslim community in Britain is, that its very closed. They isolate in muslim communities and do not integrate that well in British society. This results has been seen in France during last Paris riots. Because society is closed and they have their own community with own rules and cultures, peoples especially young peoples feel themselves very alien in outside their community. This is what radical speakers are taking advantage. They grow the fear what lives in hearts of young peoples.

One step for change is not to isolate one self but be interactive with others. Peoples fear what they do not know. This would prevent radicalisation and would be beneficial to all.

Communities of your own peoples is safe haven in new country but it also prevents integration with society leading into conflict. So its a double edged sword.

Religion itself is not good or bad. The peoples using it make it good or bad.

demi 18-Feb-2008 01:37

I haven't watch the videos but I wonder if there's positive change, is it because of following muslim rules or just following a written set of moral laws. I mean if muslim did help I'm sure that judaism or budism would have helped too

Syke 18-Feb-2008 04:24

Re: Make Me A Muslim
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by demi (Post 1627586)
I haven't watch the videos but I wonder if there's positive change, is it because of following muslim rules or just following a written set of moral laws. I mean if muslim did help I'm sure that judaism or budism would have helped too

Precisely. The fact that this was the Muslim religion is inconsequential. If you had chosen any moral code and enforced it on them for three weeks you would have seen that same dedication of purpose. It gives structure, order and a false sense of meaning and purpose to these people's lives. It's a distraction and diversion from the issues and emptiness plaguing them, and rather than deal with them they're pursuing smoke and mirrors.

Armitage 18-Feb-2008 14:13

Perhaps any other belief system would have done the job in the short-term. However, you see i think - as muslim - that any other belief system would in long-term bring other issues which would replace the problems. For example, the problem with binge drinking, Islam is the only religion that has such an strict ruling against it, other religions or lifestyles wouldnt solve the problem sufficiently. But thats my biased view.

But leaving that point alone, when i said - the participants have seen positive effects - im taking this from their remarks. It suggests some of them were accepting and acknowledging the inner meaning of the islamic moral code, like the women who acknowledged and accepted the meaning of the headscarf. And thats what counts i think. The argument that any other moral code would have done it, i must reject this statement since, for example, the rigid structuring and lifestyle of a slave or military organisation, althought many westerners might equal Islam with such organisations, is probably not able to generate this kind of satisfaction, meaning and acceptance within the participants. Again my baised view.

Syke: To the argument that Islam doesnt takles the problems or gives false meaning as you mean, i have to say this. If you want to clean something you'll ineviatably going to soil yourself (not literally taken). Islam enforces the good and hinders the evil from spreading from its roots, that eventually the good gives the evil no place to be. That without infecting itself with the evil, thus remaining pure.

Who hasnt yet, please watch the docu before arguing here, thanks.

peace

Bernel 18-Feb-2008 21:22

Re: Make Me A Muslim
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Armitage (Post 1627677)
Islam enforces the good and hinders the evil from spreading from its roots, that eventually the good gives the evil no place to be. That without infecting itself with the evil, thus remaining pure.

Then you would expect that in strictly Islamic countries there would be no or at least little evil, right? "Evil" is a slippery concept, but when I look at the world I just don't see that, it seems to me as if Islamic countries tend to have a lot more problems than we have in the West.

Armitage 18-Feb-2008 22:00

Re: Make Me A Muslim
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Bernel (Post 1627740)
Then you would expect that in strictly Islamic countries there would be no or at least little evil, right? "Evil" is a slippery concept, but when I look at the world I just don't see that, it seems to me as if Islamic countries tend to have a lot more problems than we have in the West.

Well, muslims have the concept of halal (lawful) and haram (forbidden) which is more appropriate.

Unfortunatly, atm i dont see any 'islamic' country in the surface of earth. Mekkah and Medina are probably the most authentic islamic places left. The muslim world is yet recovering from colonialism, the colonialism where the western rulers dismantled the islamic law and closed the islamic schools as their first decree. You see, alot of Islamic thought was lost then. We Muslims are undergoing the task of reconnecting to our roots which is happening atm, the dynamic in the muslim word is quite thrilling. Unfortunatly the West sees exactly that as a threat :(
Well, Islam will eventually have its revival dispite western meddling, so God Will.

peace

Syke 19-Feb-2008 00:10

Re: Make Me A Muslim
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Armitage (Post 1627751)
Well, muslims have the concept of halal (lawful) and haram (forbidden) which is more appropriate.

Unfortunatly, atm i dont see any 'islamic' country in the surface of earth. Mekkah and Medina are probably the most authentic islamic places left. The muslim world is yet recovering from colonialism, the colonialism where the western rulers dismantled the islamic law and closed the islamic schools as their first decree. You see, alot of Islamic thought was lost then. We Muslims are undergoing the task of reconnecting to our roots which is happening atm, the dynamic in the muslim word is quite thrilling. Unfortunatly the West sees exactly that as a threat :(
Well, Islam will eventually have its revival dispite western meddling, so God Will.

peace

If you asked adherents of the Christian faith, they would inform you undoubtedly that Christianity when practiced in its pure form is perfect as well. Buddhism, when practiced correctly, would lead to a perfect world. In fact, the entire point of any purportedly universal moral code is that theoretically if followed absolutely by everyone it will lead to perfection on earth.

So by default you have to believe that Islam leads to perfection. The facts of life contradict this, obviously, so you find refuge in rationalizations. Any religion can do this, and all organized religions do so. You and Islam are not unique, and my point still stands regarding the inconsequential nature of this documentary utilizing Islam as its ethical code of choice.

Armitage 19-Feb-2008 00:58

Re: Make Me A Muslim
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Syke (Post 1627772)
If you asked adherents of the Christian faith, they would inform you undoubtedly that Christianity when practiced in its pure form is perfect as well. Buddhism, when practiced correctly, would lead to a perfect world. In fact, the entire point of any purportedly universal moral code is that theoretically if followed absolutely by everyone it will lead to perfection on earth.

So by default you have to believe that Islam leads to perfection. The facts of life contradict this, obviously, so you find refuge in rationalizations. Any religion can do this, and all organized religions do so. You and Islam are not unique, and my point still stands regarding the inconsequential nature of this documentary utilizing Islam as its ethical code of choice.

The pure form of Christianity is what? The pure form of Judaism is what? The probably pure form of Buddism is what? Can you answer me these questions? A tip, you will find the answer below somewhere in my post.

Islam's Message is unchanged since 1400 years, thats where my certainity for Islam comes from. If you want to find God, go the path He has outlined in His Book. Thats the only way, the Straight Path, the 'Sirat al-Mustaqim'. Following Islam means to be as close to God as a human can be. This is how I see the things. :)

"Say: 'come let me recite to you what your Lord Has forbade for you:
that you should not set-up anything with Him.
And be kind to your parents;
and do not kill your unborn children for fear of poverty, We provide for you and for them;
and do not come near evil, what is openly of it, or secretly;
and do not kill the soul which GOD Has forbidden, except in justice. That is what He enjoined you that you may comprehend'.
'And do not come near the money of the orphan, except for what is best, until he reached his maturity;
and give honestly full measure and weight equitably. We do not burden a soul except by what it can bear.
And if you speak then be just even if against a relative;
and with pledges made to GOD you shall observe. This He Has enjoined you that you may remember'.
And this is *My path, a Straight One, so you shall follow it, and do not follow the other paths lest they divert you from His path. That is what He has enjoined you to that you may be righteous." (6:151-153)


Do you find anything in these verses which are immoral? If you follow these commandments would you describe the person as a rightous person?

peace

demi 19-Feb-2008 03:07

Quote:

16 Honor your father and your mother, as the Lord your God commanded you, so that your days may be long and that it may go well with you in the land that the Lord your God is giving you.

17 You shall not murder.

18 Neither shall you commit adultery.

19 Neither shall you steal.

20 Neither shall you bear false witness against your neighbour.

21 Neither shall you covet your neighbour’s wife. Neither shall you desire your neighbour’s house, or field, or male or female slave, or ox, or donkey, or anything that belongs to your neighbour.
doesn't that seem moral to you? the point is, al religion are moral people just don't follow them or don't care. Islam is no different. And I was told that Mohamed (sp?) made the religion so jews would change to it. But as they didn't he changed the religion and make it less jew friendly (this from a historian book and I haven't read that parts myself but I think what I was told is a good interpretation of that part of the book).

Bernel 19-Feb-2008 08:31

Re: Make Me A Muslim
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Armitage (Post 1627751)
Unfortunatly, atm i dont see any 'islamic' country in the surface of earth. Mekkah and Medina are probably the most authentic islamic places left.

You are a wahhabite? That is a 18th century invention not any original Islam.
First you write
Quote:

You see, alot of Islamic thought was lost then.
then you tell us that
Quote:

Islam's Message is unchanged since 1400 years, thats where my certainity for Islam comes from.
How can it be unchanged and lost at the same time? Islam is just as much victim to ambiguity in the message as is Christianity. Many passages in the Quran are unclear or contradictory, and the hadiths may or may not be made up later. Different branches of Islam have different opinions on which of them to trust. Even if the message is unchanged, that doesn't prove it is also true.

demi, even your selected passage from the Bible is immoral since it supports slavery.

DHoffryn 19-Feb-2008 09:55

Re: Make Me A Muslim
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Armitage (Post 1627778)
And this is *My path, a Straight One, so you shall follow it, and do not follow the other paths lest they divert you from His path. That is what He has enjoined you to that you may be righteous." (6:151-153)[/color][/i]

Do you find anything in these verses which are immoral? If you follow these commandments would you describe the person as a rightous person?

peace

Well the first is nothing especially original(not that i expect it from islam) and the last part seem like a rather bad advice which may lead to a close mind and hostility against other viewpoints. Also it if you want go all politicly correct on it it may be considered offensive to humans since it can be intepreted as describing humans as being incapable of making the right choice if presented with multiple options


Quote:

Well, Islam will eventually have its revival dispite western meddling, so God Will.
Don't worry as soon as your oil runs out the West won't really care anymore about you and you can revive yourself all you want

Quote:

But thats my biased view.
well that sums it up rather well. You fail to ackonwledge the rather obvious thing everyone has been pointing out exactly because of your bias

Armitage 19-Feb-2008 11:55

I asked 3 questions in my last post and you all have been rather dodging them. Can you please clearly answer them or at least state that you dont know the answer if thats the case or leave this thread?
  • So whats the pure essence of Christianity and Judaism?
  • Is there anything immoral in these verses i posted above?
  • If you follow these commandments would you describe the person as a rightous person?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bernel
How can it be unchanged and lost at the same time?

I was unclear. I thought you would know i was speaking of the Qu'ran. God not only sent Messages but also Messengers who demonstrated the practical application of the Message ("Hadith" the lifestyle of the Prophet (pbuh)).

Quote:

Originally Posted by demi
doesn't that seem moral to you?

Your Bible reference is nice, thanks for posting! I appreciate your effort. To answer your question. These are moral commandments for me, yes. But they are against my sense of hmm .. how shall i say ... justice or security(?). I will pick an example:

17 You shall not murder. It tells me whats moral but it does not tell me when and how i should adapt this command. Is it absolute? Shall i not even kill in self-defence? Is it relative? To which point can i relativate this commandment without negating it? To be honest, i want to say that there might be Bible references which give answers to these questions but your Bible reference as you posted it isnt giving me these answers, which i need to be able to make sense of them. Compare the Bible with the Quranic reference:

and do not kill the soul which GOD Has forbidden, except in justice. You shall not kill and then God gives an exception, 'except in justice'. You have a definition in the quran of what is forbidden and what is allowed and what justice means in Islam. This is moral and it gives you a sense of security in your act. Thats the difference between Islam and Christianity.

peace

Bernel 19-Feb-2008 13:05

Re: Make Me A Muslim
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Armitage (Post 1627857)
[*]Is there anything immoral in these verses i posted above?

Out of all the Quran and hadiths, why do you only care about those few lines? They are hardly enough to giude your entire life. Furthermore, reading them the same way you read the corresponding passage from the Bible:

And be kind to your parents;Is that absolute, am I not even allowed to be rude to my parents in self defense? How do you do if you find your father beating up your mother? Being kind to one will hurt the other.

and do not kill your unborn children for fear of poverty, We provide for you and for them; So what if your first child starved to death, are you still assumed to believe that "we" will provide for the next? Clearly this passage has no bearing on the real world where "we" don't provide for millions of children.

Quote:

17 You shall not murder. It tells me whats moral but it does not tell me when and how i should adapt this command.
Your passages from the Quran says nothing about when and if you have the right to kill, so I don't think you are in position to complain about the Bible being unclear here. In other passages both the Bible and Quran give countless situations in which you should kill people, it's hard to tell which is worst in its bloodthirst.

Armitage 19-Feb-2008 13:51

Bernel: a short reply only for now. I want others to answer my 3 questions before i post again (which you havent, unfortunatley, but maybe you'll answer them eventually).

Bible: You shall not [do this] with no exception. The consequence is to take it all absolute, literally but is that intended, is there evidence in the Bible to take these commandments absolute? At least those posted verses have this structure.
Quran: has absolute orders (yes, treating your parents is absolute) and when needed it relativates the orders as you can see from the verses i quoted from the Qur'an.

peace

DHoffryn 19-Feb-2008 16:03

I already answered your question concerning this very limited example of islam. Altough i don't use such silly descriptions as immoral. And since you can't judge a person based on so little information your third question is rather pointless

As for the first one the details don't matter. As people have been trying to tell you it doesn't matter if it's islam,judaism or some pshycological program. To repeat Syke who arleady answered quite well

Quote:

Precisely. The fact that this was the Muslim religion is inconsequential. If you had chosen any moral code and enforced it on them for three weeks you would have seen that same dedication of purpose. It gives structure, order and a false sense of meaning and purpose to these people's lives. It's a distraction and diversion from the issues and emptiness plaguing them, and rather than deal with them they're pursuing smoke and mirrors.

Bernel 19-Feb-2008 16:08

Re: Make Me A Muslim
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Armitage (Post 1627875)
Bernel: a short reply only for now. I want others to answer my 3 questions before i post again (which you havent, unfortunatley, but maybe you'll answer them eventually).

If you want more explicit answers, I pass on the first question since I'm neither a Christian or a Jew. The second, yes, it is immoral for this "we" (God or the Islamic community?) to claim it will take care of any unwanted children when it clearly doesn't. For your third question your rules doesn't cover more than a fraction of life, there is plenty of room to do a lot of evil while following those rules. For example, while it is clearly wrong to steal from an orphan, what about stealing from other people?
Quote:

Quran: has absolute orders (yes, treating your parents is absolute)
So what do you do if your parents beat and abuse you? Accept it as the normal order of things?

Dusk Illz 19-Feb-2008 16:50

Re: Make Me A Muslim
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Armitage (Post 1627857)
[*]So whats the pure essence of Christianity and Judaism?

Pure essence is a difficult term, especially when it comes to religions. If you mean what lies at the basis of these religions, i would say the religious experience. If you mean the ideal-form practice of these religions, then as Syke said, the essence is a universal moral code.

Quote:

[*]Is there anything immoral in these verses i posted above?

"Say: 'come let me recite to you what your Lord Has forbade for you:
that you should not set-up anything with Him.
And be kind to your parents;
and do not kill your unborn children for fear of poverty, We provide for you and for them;
and do not come near evil, what is openly of it, or secretly;
and do not kill the soul which GOD Has forbidden, except in justice. That is what He enjoined you that you may comprehend'.
'And do not come near the money of the orphan, except for what is best, until he reached his maturity;
and give honestly full measure and weight equitably. We do not burden a soul except by what it can bear.
And if you speak then be just even if against a relative;
and with pledges made to GOD you shall observe. This He Has enjoined you that you may remember'.
And this is *My path, a Straight One, so you shall follow it, and do not follow the other paths lest they divert you from His path. That is what He has enjoined you to that you may be righteous." (6:151-153)

I agree with practically all these prescripts, they express good sentiments. Just through reason and love for my fellow man i already hold myself to moral standards that are more strict and more encompassing than these though; they're very basic (Be good, be kind, don't kill, be just, etc). Put it this way, and at the risk of sounding pretentious, I feel I choose to be a better man, than many a believer's God decrees him. The sole thing i would say is wrong, or immoral, about the passage, is therefore "do not follow the other paths lest they divert you from His path". Any real religion, i feel, should encourage a believer to analyze and experience all paths, because only after doing so could you honestly choose what is truly the best path. There's no compulsion in religion right, then let there be no subtle compulsion either.

Quote:

[*]If you follow these commandments would you describe the person as a rightous person?
No. Living by them would be a decent start, but would not nearly be enough to make a man righteous in my opinion. Morality is not just living by rules handed to you by your chosen authority, that's just phase one. More important is deciding to restrict yourself in those things where your own desire may end up hurting others.

Armitage 02-Mar-2008 22:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skye
If you asked adherents of the Christian faith, they would inform you undoubtedly that Christianity when practiced in its pure form is perfect as well.

  • So whats the pure essence of Christianity and Judaism?
The pure essense or form of Christianity and Judaism is the belief in One God, strict Monotheism. As the Quran states:

They say: "Become Jews or Christians if ye would be guided (To salvation)." Say thou [Muhammad]: "Nay! (I would rather) the Religion of Abraham the True, and he joined not gods with God." [2:235]


  • Is there anything immoral in these verses i posted above?
DHoffryn: not enough informations from the verse to judge a person.
Bernel: (the "We" is the Majesty form for "God" in semitic languages). Has difficulties with the part where God states that He would care for all people. Actually doubting the Omnipotence of God.


  • If you follow these commandments would you describe the person as a rightous person?
Dusk Illz: thinks these are basic commandments are just good for a start.
Bernel: rules are not comprehensiv enough.

My answer is if you are able to follow these rules, you belong to the best of people if you also believe in the Oneness of God and in the prophethood of Muhammad (pbuh). I say it, you are the best of the people on this earth if you are able to understand the underlying difficulties which comes along with these rules.

As Bernel said it and from your own experience, being polite to the parents can be extremely difficult because parents dont behave as they should and too often supress the rights of their children. Yet, God says to be polite to them. Why does He?
Bernel, you are mysterious to me (you do understand that humans have been able to live in almost every corner of this world and in some places they could even live in abundance? The fact that humans or children die due to malnutrituion is due to the "human" system of distribution of good. Not because God has made us live in a world which is not capable to nuture all people. Thomas Malthus if he would have read the Qur'an and believed in it, would have known that his theory would be a failure). The immorality you see in the commandment (not kill you childred for fear of poverty) i cannot. Arabs used to bury their female babies for fear of poverty. Is this a reason to kill your children? Do you think you have the moral authority to determine the life of a child over the life of a newborn child? If you cannot feed both children and they die, then it was the fate of the child to die as an infant. God has determined the timepoint of death for every living being. By killing someone you take a right which belongs to God. God takes and gives life. Overcomming fear of this kind is a most difficult task and i wonder if you, Dusk Illz have mastered it. You state these commandments are a good start but they are more than most people can handle.

God says you should avoid evil. Thats easy in public. Often people seem to be of the best of humans but they turn out to become hypocrites because they associate with what is bad when they are alone or in secret. The urge to do a bad deed is stronger when you are alone or are aware that you wont be sanctioned. Is this commandment really that easy what God is asking?

The commandment of not embezzling the money of orphans is a general one. How many Ceo's have violated this rule? The destruction of the negligence of this rule is grave. The blood, the property and the honor of a human being is sacrosant. The prophet (pbuh) when he came back from a caravan journey to Mecca didnt went to home to wash the dirt of his face before he did not hand over the property which was entrusted to him. 99,9% of the people would have went home after a long and dangerous journey, rested, eat and slept a bit and then proceeded to settle the bills. Not so the prophet (pbuh) since he was the shining light of humanity.

No my friends, walking the straight path is not an easy one and its not a start. You can only walk this path when you have a firm grounding in your faith and have a understanding of this world. Its difficult but if you try God is the Merciful, He helps those who honestly strive to find Him and the reward of being rightous in the eyes of God is Paradise, eternal bliss and God's benevolence.

H3ctor 21-Mar-2008 00:30

Quote:

and do not kill your unborn children for fear of poverty, We provide for you and for them;
If only millions of muslim africans read that quote from the koran, islam numbers would diminish incredibly and do this world a favour.

To be fair, ridding the world of all religion would do it a big favour also. However it is in our nature as humans to find other means to destroy our lives.

So what to do :\

Gotterdammerung 27-Mar-2008 14:15

Re: Make Me A Muslim
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by H3ctor (Post 1632210)
If only millions of muslim africans read that quote from the koran, islam numbers would diminish incredibly and do this world a favour.

To be fair, ridding the world of all religion would do it a big favour also. However it is in our nature as humans to find other means to destroy our lives.

So what to do :\

"...to destroy", as you put it, stems from the assumption that our lives are relatively static. Which is, I think, from a practical perspective, far from realistic.

Decline is but another essential part of the whole. There should be nothing inherently repulsive about it. Unless, that is, you grasp to fantasy world.

What good, then, would come from ridding the world of religion? It's bound to fail. So, "what to do", you ask? Well, quite simply: whatever you feel willed to do!

H3ctor 28-Mar-2008 18:37

Well at least my grasp of a fantasy world doesn't involve, blowing myself up killing innocents trying to get my point across bureaucrats, sacrificial rituals, declaring a jihad, crusade against my distant neighbours, burning "witches" ... need i say more ;)

Armitage 28-Mar-2008 23:17

So whats your interest for this specific islamic thread? Are you in the urge to warn all those folks of yours of the dangers of islam? Is your name possibly Geert Wilders? :lol

Now dont go off-topic anymore in this thread please. I hope the mods will warn this guy.

Gotterdammerung 31-Mar-2008 02:59

Re: Make Me A Muslim
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by H3ctor (Post 1633364)
Well at least my grasp of a fantasy world doesn't involve, blowing myself up killing innocents trying to get my point across bureaucrats, sacrificial rituals, declaring a jihad, crusade against my distant neighbours, burning "witches" ... need i say more ;)

I'm getting really annoyed how you and others like you keep pumping out a humanist presumption on things, that we must save the world and we must create the greatest good for the greatest number. It's just assumed to be the case.

What is inherently bad about blowing up 'innocents'? No one is innocent. Ever. The idea of being innocent means being detached from the situation of choice. But first you have to prove the abstract part of our minds which is said to have total dominion over the rest of oursevles. No, this is not possible. Then we have to determine that loss of human life is a bad thing, is it? Does 'badness' indeed exist?

Walk we through all of this, then maybe we can have a chat about wayward religions.

Flair 02-Apr-2008 19:08

Ok, for starters.

- Any set of moral/ethical codes would have had the same effect.
- Those people wanted to change, otherwise they wouldnt have done the show.

Now, just to point out that Islam isnt perfectly accurate as you seem to claim. Which tbh, I could do merely by pointing out there clearly sections of the muslim community who have mis understood it to the point of believing it suggests all non muslims should be hit with planes, but I'll actually take your own examples.

Quote:

and do not kill the soul which GOD Has forbidden, except in justice.
Justice is somewhat obsure. If someone steals my wallet, and I want justice.... I can kill him? What about if he slept with my wife.

And what about if his going to attack me. Now, he'd have to actually attack me before I can seek justice... at which point i'm dead. So I cant actually defend myself.

All religions are misleading, and generally lead to fatal confusion. It happened with Christians, when groups they thought the bible said they have to destroy the middle east and rule Jeruslam killing every "saracen" they found in the middle ages.

And now theres muslims sects who are very similar in thier thoughts... if not nearly half as picky over who they should be killing.

Armitage 04-Apr-2008 23:59

Flair i have answered your first statement of subsitution of moral codes already in a previous post.

Islam and Muslims are not equal. Islam's Source, the Quran is perfect, Muslims as humans are imperfect. Islam is also easy and simple to understand, the misunderstandings you point out to are not misunderstandings but the deliberate ignoring of what is mutual consent of scholars of Islam. Flying planes into buildings is not what Islam teaches and im certain in my belief that it was done by non-muslims in an attempt to blame it to muslims. Even those, who you call extremists, the Taliban have given the US the opportunity to show evidence and if so, they would have put OBL in a criminal charge and punished him according to the guilt, if he was truely guilty. But we know, the US has been unable to produce evidence except for some obscure tapes years later.

Whats obscure about Justice? If you are unsure about something, there is a saying of the prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) which goes somewhat as, a person is not a believer until he keeps away from what is questionable. And if you have doubts, go ask someone with knowledge. If you are in a emergency situation, try to act according to your knowledge and put your soul into Gods hands. Self-defence is allowed in Islam, outward Jihad is all about self-defence.

Also there is a proportionality of punishment. If someone steals from you and is guilty, then he might loose his hand with which he harmed you. This might be harsh but the blood, property and honor of humans is sacred after all. On another note, one point about islamic law is exceptional that is that its the victims who have the last saying. They can forgive culprit from punishment. So someone punished to death can be forgiven. In the West, people often dont feel as if justice was served but thats another topic. I thought many people might not know this about islamic law, thus pointed it out.

Quote:

All religions are misleading, and generally lead to fatal confusion.
What is confusion. Its when you cannot find answers to situations or questions you have. You have to find your answers. You also might struggle yourself through the wisdom, religion offers. And if religion cant backup its verses in life experience, its inevitably going to lead to even more confusion if you hold to that religion, but giving up on all religions just because one religion offers no satisfying answers, will that relieve ones confusion? Rather no. But thats the case for so many atheits. Christianity disappointed them, therefore all religions are worthless. How irrational.

peace

chal 28-May-2008 23:17

in the US?
 
I would like to see what would happen if they tried that in the US.



and just my 2 cents....

the best guidance for relating to humankind and God...

luke 10:27

"Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind; and thy neighbour as thyself."
-Jesus Christ


you can't force love, or it isn't love!

Armitage 05-Jun-2008 12:29

What would happen then?

Chal do you love God with all your heart? I tell you that if you try to live by that verse you will become frustrated soon for its not possible to love God with all your heart, thats impossible to achieve so in fact, every christian who tries to live by that standard will become frustrated. For Man loves other things.

Fair in the eyes of men is the love [hubb] of things they covet: Women and sons; heaped-up hoards of gold and silver; horses branded (for blood and excellence); and (wealth of) cattle and well-tilled land. Such are the possessions of this world's life; but in nearness to Allah is the best of the goals (to return to).[Qur'an 3:14]

In Quran God doesnt commands to love Him. Ironically, and it suprises me you dont saw it yourself when you wrote your comment, you say "you can't force love, or it isn't love!" while your Bible verse states a direct binding command "Thou shalt love the Lord thy God [...]" the people. So whats your stance now?

A good (tho critical site to islam) site to love and God in Quran, here.

So far and as always, peace to everyone, even if they may not like it that i wish them peace.


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