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Posts: 79/602
(01-Nov-2002 at 21:39)


Changing Races in Utopia

I was just thinking about the changes that have been made to the races in utopia over the long term. When I first started playing Utopia I seem to remember that there were much greater differences between all the races. I was just wondering if anybody else had noticed that Mehul was gradually making the races more and more similar. I mean I know that there are still very large differences between the races but never the less I have a feeling that Mehul has, in attempt to make the game more even, just started cutting down on the differences between races, whether he has realised it or not. I'm just worried that if it keeps going forward there will be no differences at all.

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(01-Nov-2002 at 21:56)
True, and with the gradually balancing, as he calls it, he also makes his game more and more weaker.
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(01-Nov-2002 at 22:52)


i am just trying to sort of gauge the opinion on this before i say something in the official forum.

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(Posted as Stormcrow)
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(01-Nov-2002 at 23:05)


I agree...

Have posted some ideas late last age to make the races more unique again.

The Avian Immunity to Forts is a start... As are the Warring Undead...

But it can be improved still.. Dwarves & Humans for example are not that unique...


Famous for nowty by nature
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(01-Nov-2002 at 23:20)


Some races do need a serious facelift to make them more unique. Stormcrow did mention Dwarves and humans already, but I think faeries and halfers need to also be looked at. These are meant to be the main t/m races, with faes focusing more on magic and halfers being the superthieves. Mehul needs to tilt them more that way. In my view, elves are meant to be the a/m race, and to make them fit that mold better, they need access to spells like quick feet.

Wilde Karde, the Knight of the Woeful Countenance
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(Posted as FrozenR)
Posts: 14/126
(01-Nov-2002 at 23:27)


sunglasses

There must be some drastic changes...that will be cool. Like eg. Halfers cannot train Elites OR Faerys spells cost 1/3 of the usual or somethinh in that line...you get my drift !
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(01-Nov-2002 at 23:33)


Quote:
(Originally posted by FrozenR)

There must be some drastic changes...that will be cool. Like eg. Halfers cannot train Elites OR Faerys spells cost 1/3 of the usual or somethinh in that line...you get my drift !
I think your halfer idea would kill the race since they are not meant to attack and you faery idea would over power the race any more.

Wilde Karde, the Knight of the Woeful Countenance
Remember that there are only two types of people who can wear hats inside: Jews and Texans. I've got both bases covered.
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(02-Nov-2002 at 14:29)


I think he justmeant things that were very drastic ...... not those precise changes ..... of course I could be wrong.

Anyway I don't really think there's any point in just posting a message in the utopia forums saying something like:

"The races aren't different enough"

I think someone would actually need to have a good solid list of ideas. So if anybody has any ideas that are somewhat drastic but still reasonable then post them here then maybe in a few weeks we will have something reasonable to put forward.

Remember that no races can be totally overpowered so if for example you do give faeries something like -66% spell costs as mentioned earlier then they need to be weakened somehow as well.

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(Posted as Stormcrow)
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(02-Nov-2002 at 15:23)


My B&S Post

I'll see if I can't focus on the races specifically...

This is the post as I made it on the Bugs n Suggestions forum...

Warning, it's long.
Please note, it's written at the end of last age, so I didn't incorporate this Age's changes yet (e.g. Avian Fort bonus).
_


________________________
__General Introduction__

One of the 'natural' advantages of Utopia used to be the diversity in the races. One of the points in favour of this diversity used to be the various Elites. With the decline of the Elites in favour of the uniform Specialists, some of the diversity had disappeared from the game.

In this post, I hope to be able to give a smattering of ideas that could possibly could enhance this uniqueness again. I'll first list those ideas, and later on supplement them with examples. I've tried to abstain from totally new mechanics in the game, and to draw on what's available already.

==Please understand that this is in no way an attempt to balance the races - merely to make them more Unique.==

__________________
__Ideas in short__

° Race Unique Buildings
° Race Unique Permanent Spells
° Race Unique Bonuses (that aren't simply some other +% or -%)
° Race Unique Ops/Spells (partially done now, could be enhanced)

Some of these would probably not add as much to the Uniqueness, since there's not much extra 'descriptiveness' fer instance in -say- Orcs having an extra Thievery Ops, or a totally Unique spell.)

There may be other options, these were the more feasable ones I could think up at the moment. Another possible option would be to make the Personalities even more diversified, but I'd prefer (other people) to tackle it in another post. This one will be long enough as is.

On a side-note, giving ALL specialist a different name will add some more Uniqueness, rather than having 3 different Archers, and 3 different Swordsmen or so.

________________________
__Ideas in more detail__

Given here are examples for each of the four. Please keep in mind they are exactly that - EXAMPLES. Furthermore, I've tried to avoid to duplicate bonuses that are already given to the race otherwise (though I some cases I couldn't get round it. Compare Halfling, Faery and Avian bonuses for example.)

___________________________
°°°Race Unique Buildings°°°
___________________________

A few ages ago, a discussion of this got started over the fact that Undead still had Farms and Hospitals (even if now Hospitals can fulfill -some- function for them). After that, several examples were seen on these forums. I do not claim credit for these buildings - though some might or might not be my own, nor do I claim them to be balanced. In fact, I'd prefer it if they weren't balanced. That would enable Mehul to give the less-powerful Races a boost that isn't directly related to their 'bonuses' or 'military'. And, it would also be another point for consideration when choosing a Race.

For simplicity, I've chosen to let one Building combine the abilities of two others (though to a slightly lesser extent, so you won't save 30% of your land all of a sudden...)

**Humans**
Universities : Combine the current effect of Universities (to a lesser extent) with current effect of Schools.
(Could be renamed, but would prefer it to be ditched for other races completely - Libs enable Sci pumps already...)

**Elves**
Runestones : Combine the effect Guilds have on Self-Spells with something that produces Runes. Could possibly even let them train Wizards still.

**Dwarves**
Gold Mines : Act as a combination of Mines and Homes.

**Orcs**
Strongholds : Acts as a combination of Stables and Barracks
(would prefer not to combine Forts and Barracks in one building.)

**Faeries**
Spytowers : Act as Thieves' Dens and Watchtowers combined
(finally someone to give Halfers a -real- run for the Thievery medals. They'd probably have to loose Clearsight though...)

**Halflings**
Workstations : Combine Mills with Forts.

**Avians**
Cliffs : Combine Barracks and Armouries.

**Undead**
Graveyards : Towers with Hospitals

__________________________________
°°°Race Unique Permanent Spells°°°
__________________________________

The idea is quite simple - each race has one spell running 24/7.
Could be a spell private to that race even, meaning no other race could cast it. Not sure on Mystic Vortex - one option would be to let it dispell the Permanent Spell until the province logs in again.

Spells are chosen largely for 'feel' - to add something to the race, rather than strengthening or weakening races. In fact, I can say that some examples will already appear overpowered (e.g. Orcs..)

**Humans**
Permanent Mind Focus

**Elves**
Permanent Nature's Blessing (possibly the 'old' way, combining FL + NB)

**Dwarves**
Permanent Miner's Mystique

**Orcs**
Permanent Bloodlust (or Aggression/Fanaticism... the first would be the strongest, but fits best. Aggression is Soldiers only, so hasn't too much of an impact at later stages unless Soldier Feeding goes on. Fanaticism would lower gains and Defense, so would be a mightily two-edged sword to hand out...)

**Faeries**
Permanent Invisibility

**Halflings**
Permanent Builder's Boon

**Avians**
Permanent Fog

**Undead**
Permanent Animate Dead

___________________________
°°°Race Unique Bonuses°°°
___________________________

I must say I quite like the Undead War bonus, and the Halfling Happiness bonus, as they are truly unique, and add something to the race. Something similar could possibly be tried to give to all races.
This is the hardest one to come up with examples for, so bear with me.

**Humans**
Horses for Knights are used on Defense (and die there as well...)

**Elves**
I can't possibly think of a Unique advantage for Elves. Everything in their description is already in the bonuses they have. I don't really think they need to have extra Wizardry strength (and that bonus fits the Faery Magicians better...), and a permanent Spell option is already given above.

Possible : Immunity to Torch Farms (since they harvest the Forests), another Op or Spell.

**Dwarves**
Elites do not require pay assuming the player has enough Mines. 1 Mine per 10 (? 100 ?) Elites will allow them to mine their own gold.

**Orcs**
Enhanced Plunder - inbuilt 'Conquest' gains.

**Faeries**
Each 10 Magicians count as one Wizard.

**Halflings**
Extra Happiness (though I'd hope that the effects of this do become more pronounced than is now the case).

**Avians**
Does the extra Elite gain suffice ? Stronger Specialists (Offensive) was something Unique, and would level the field with the normal Specs on horses.

**Undead**
'War race'.

____________________________
°°°Race Unique Ops/Spells°°°
____________________________

In part this is done now already. Unfortunately, the Unique Thief ops the Halfling has are duplicated in the Rogue - meaning any Thief can have them. There are some Unique spells in the game, but there isn't a single spell only -ONE- race can cast.

I'm not going to give examples here, as it would involve thinking up a lot of new Thievery Ops, or seriously hampering Thieves by giving them even less choices as various ops disappear to specific Races.
Another reason is that it could affect Faeries if they were to loose their 'Access to all Spells'.

The idea is there in the game already, plain for all to see - I'm just saying it could be expanded upon.


Famous for nowty by nature
#9  
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Posts: 92/602
(02-Nov-2002 at 15:44)


ok well that's almost exactly the sort of thing I was talking about, I just didn't see it last age. Anyway I do think this is important because the different races are crucial to the game and partly what makes it better than so many other online games. There must be a way to put more pressure on to change the races more and in opposite directions from each other.

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(02-Nov-2002 at 22:17)
I would love those changes Doubt mehul will look twice at them though
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(02-Nov-2002 at 22:28)
quote:
(Originally posted by FrozenR)

There must be some drastic changes...that will be cool. Like eg. Halfers cannot train Elites OR Faerys spells cost 1/3 of the usual or somethinh in that line...you get my drift !



Quote:
(Originally posted by Karde)

I think your halfer idea would kill the race since they are not meant to attack and you faery idea would over power the race any more.


I have to disagree with that I played a Halfer Rogue last age and was only attacked 3 times the whole age and I had no elites at all. I didn't have any off. specs either but I mean I wasn't playing a Halfer to attack.
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Posts: 93/602
(02-Nov-2002 at 22:35)


ok this thread is going a bit off topic, anyway ...... I dunno how big you were last age but I assume you were quite small because I was also a halfling rogue and by the end of the age I had to have some elites because good attackers had so many elites that they could have huge opa and dpa therefore could afford to send out big forces and hit t/ms ...... it always happens like that. So I guess if you were small then nobody would have this high opa and dpa ...... but I thought I'd point it out anyway.

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(03-Nov-2002 at 00:24)


Quote:
(Originally posted by moonraker)
I have to disagree with that I played a Halfer Rogue last age and was only attacked 3 times the whole age and I had no elites at all. I didn't have any off. specs either but I mean I wasn't playing a Halfer to attack.
I played a halfer rogue also last age and I was able to buy a ton of elites. Their defensive bonus over specs gave me more room for theives.

Wilde Karde, the Knight of the Woeful Countenance
Remember that there are only two types of people who can wear hats inside: Jews and Texans. I've got both bases covered.
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(03-Nov-2002 at 02:36)


Stormcrow... great post. I think you covered most of what I was going to mention, and more. You even had about 500% more detail than I would have included.

I agree... bit by bit some of the races have started to "clump" together. Still some unique aspects kicking around, but a few more wouldn't hurt.

"Despite the cost of living, have you noticed how it has remained so popular?"

"If Ignorance is Bliss, then I'm Depressed"
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