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(Posted as matinog)
Posts: 687/922
(12-Feb-2008 at 00:43)


@chillin: Learn more math and realize that i never said that is was wrong. Seriously, im just saying that there are different systems of math, the same thing that Pollock said. Depending on the base, 2+2=4. But 2+2=4 always and forever in a decimal system, does that make you happy? The requirements for 2+2 to equal 4 is that is must be base 5 and up, but to make it simple for you, it will always give the same answer in decimal.

Im just saying that some science concepts only apply to certain conditions, DO YOU UNDERSTAND WHAT I AM TRYING TO RELATE HERE? Im not disproving anything, Its like im asking you if the apple exist and you answer that im wrong cause its always blue.
#61  
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Posts: 397/742
(12-Feb-2008 at 02:52)


Re: 2 + 2 = 5

Originally Posted by You And God: View Post
Last night, I was honest to myself it came to me just what all of this is about. And not just the words that I have been using but the thoughts behind them too. And not just in this post. It has been selfish of me, and I hope that i can be forgiven.

The reason is that I have been going about things on these forums, pretty much from the beginning, as if it was all about me. I am not going to defend myself and make some kind of new idea that I can force down you throat to say "everyone is only ever in it for themselves" so that I can feel better about myself. The ideas which I put forward are always typed in a way that only I can understand. Even when I posted here before I was under the name Gotterdammrung, it was Convict, and it was still a race to push a one side of an argument until I was satisfied I had forced my view on enough people. For many years I kept this up.

Another reason was through my arrogance. If there ever was a moment where I felt completely at odds with others who did not understand my view, I would raise the stakes higher and higher and become more and more pushy. I would think of them us stupid. I would even change the name from time to time just to fuel the idea that I was able to keep you all at bay.

Many times I would pretend to be humble or pretend to be enlightened. I was a pretender. I could always feel a silent respect for myself if I could walk away from an argument with a belief to go home to. Well, it was more about what others thought, not what I thought about myself. I thought that it was easy to use the internet as a way of creating new feelings towards myself. I thought that behind all of the words and the grand ideas that somehow I could become something more.

Knowledge and philosophy for me from now on will always be tainted. Even the way I speak always reminds me of a lie. It it time for me to let go of all of this non-sense. And I do not know how I will be able to talk to you again. I am very sorry. The shame would just be too much. I would have nothing to talk about. Now I am gone.

The first post of this thread may have been ego-inspired vagueness, but this post here is one of a rare clarity and honesty. Is it a coincidence that pride spawns 4 pages of discussion, while honesty doesn't get a single reply?

Your brain is unique in the history of the universe. Use it wisely.
#62  
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Posts: 904/1035
(12-Feb-2008 at 03:00)
Quote:
Something that isnt prooven can still be right or wrong? Like, every other science other than math, huh? I can proove math. Cant absolutely proove biology(or any other type of "natural science") Thus math is the only perfect science.

And yes, your right, it wasn't proven until 1761, but Archimedes had a working number that was very very close. (and you could say he most likely theorized that it was a irrational number, if we even realized the concept of irrational numbers back then) Thats similar to how alot of things in natural science are, they work, but there is no way to know 100% if they are absolutely correct under ever circumstance possible.
In mathematics a formula that isnt proved is a formula that cant be used. Archimedes showed that pi was a number between 2 boundaries, he didnt prove anything else. If I choose to set pi=315/100 during that time I can very well do so and not be incorrect.

In biology and the natural sciences something can be proved by observation and empirical data it will be published in a paper and proofread by other scientists. Proof in natural sciences are equally rigorous yet its not prooved to 100% just that with todays science its right to a high degree.

Its the same with maths its not 100% right its just right to high degree with todays science.

(And as Caelis666 pointed out maths is used to modell the world we live in and is based on a couple of Axioms - axioms that arent proved as they cant be proved)
#63  
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Posts: 2034/2670
(13-Feb-2008 at 03:21)


Quote:
In mathematics a formula that isnt proved is a formula that cant be used.
Yes it can, it would just be wrong, incorrect math. People use incorrect science all the time, thats how things "mess up", bridges collapse, ect. I'm sure Archimedes formula for pi, which by his own admission wasn't entirely correct, was still used (until we had a better definition for pi), although it gave slightly skewed results.

Quote:
In biology and the natural sciences something can be proved by observation and empirical data it will be published in a paper and proofread by other scientists. Proof in natural sciences are equally rigorous yet its not prooved to 100% just that with todays science its right to a high degree.
Your right, although I wouldnt say it was "prooven" is all, Id just say it works. And that is why natural sciences, while they are quite accurate and do work, are not as accurate as mathematics, which are 100% accurate. Because with math, you will immediately notice a flaw, because the problem will not "add up". This isn't the case with natural science, you wont immediately realize every possible error. Thats all I am saying.

Anyways I'm done with this thread, to be honest I think Im arguing something thats completely off the true point of this thread, and I also think that everyone else isnt really understanding what I'm trying to say.

"Hmph, you and your third dimension."
"What about it?" "Oh nothing, itís cute. We have five."
"Th-thousand."
"Yes five thousand."
"Donít question it."
#64  
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Posts: 7334/8194
(15-Feb-2008 at 13:01)
Re: 2 + 2 = 5

Originally Posted by Chillin: View Post
And yes, your right, it wasn't proven until 1761, but Archimedes had a working number that was very very close. (and you could say he most likely theorized that it was a irrational number, if we even realized the concept of irrational numbers back then)
Irrational numbers were discovered about three centuries earlier by a student of Pythagoras and caused quite a stir.
#65  
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Posts: 229/294
(16-Feb-2008 at 06:53)
Chillin is absolutley right about never being able to prove that 2 + 2 = 5.

Hopefully this answeres some of your questions.

2 is to 2 as orange is to orange or apple is to apple.

Math is like time, its only a unit of measurment to aid us.

Saying 2 + 2 = 5 is like saying an apple is really an orange.

A lot of you guys are asking chillin to prove that an apple is really an apple.

For instance, calling an apple, an apple, is just a specific classification on fruit type.
We decide to give specific elements names and responsibilities for organization and to make things a lot easier.

two plus twos responsablitity is to equal four, that way when measuring or explaining something its not an impossible task.

How do you know that two is really two and not three. Its because two has already been accepted as two on a global scale.

If you are holding two apples in your hand, its obviously not three because 3 is not the amount of data as the two classification.

A orange does not become the defininition of 1 just because you are holding 1 orange. One just defines how many oranges you have and again because that is a globaly wide definition its true to itself.

We made up non matter words such as the number two and applied definitions to them, to help calculate resources and measurements.

In all actuallity you could call two apples, three apples, but the same definition will apply if you only have two apples.
#66  
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Posts: 910/1035
(16-Feb-2008 at 14:02)
Re: 2 + 2 = 5

Originally Posted by Ninjoo: View Post
Chillin is absolutley right about never being able to prove that 2 + 2 = 5.

Hopefully this answeres some of your questions.

2 is to 2 as orange is to orange or apple is to apple.

Math is like time, its only a unit of measurment to aid us.

Saying 2 + 2 = 5 is like saying an apple is really an orange.

A lot of you guys are asking chillin to prove that an apple is really an apple.

For instance, calling an apple, an apple, is just a specific classification on fruit type.
We decide to give specific elements names and responsibilities for organization and to make things a lot easier.

two plus twos responsablitity is to equal four, that way when measuring or explaining something its not an impossible task.

How do you know that two is really two and not three. Its because two has already been accepted as two on a global scale.

If you are holding two apples in your hand, its obviously not three because 3 is not the amount of data as the two classification.

A orange does not become the defininition of 1 just because you are holding 1 orange. One just defines how many oranges you have and again because that is a globaly wide definition its true to itself.

We made up non matter words such as the number two and applied definitions to them, to help calculate resources and measurements.

In all actuallity you could call two apples, three apples, but the same definition will apply if you only have two apples.
2+2=4 is true sure no arguments about that, but what is "2" and what is "4".

Its pretty impossible to give a stringent mathematical definition of those numbers as numbers are imagionary things made up by the human kind in order to make life easier.

Thats where the problem lies not that if you add 2 things with 2 things you get 4 things.

Last edited by Pollock, 16-Feb-2008 at 14:10.
#67  
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Posts: 230/294
(16-Feb-2008 at 17:12)
Two can so be defined

Dictionary.com Unabridged (v 1.1) - Cite This Source - Share This
two /tu/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[too] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation,
Ėnoun 1. a cardinal number, 1 plus 1.
2. a symbol for this number, as 2 or II.
3. a set of this many persons or things.
4. a playing card, die face, or half of a domino face with two pips.
Ėadjective 5. amounting to two in number.
óIdioms6. in two, into two separate parts, as halves: A bolt of lightning split the tree in two.
7. put two and two together, to draw a correct conclusion from the given circumstances; infer: It didn't require a great mind to put two and two together.


Saying two can't be proven is like saying the fruit apple can't be proven an apple.

Thatís the way humans organize things. If you assume that there is no god and no other intelligence out there that can coherently process our numbered language then, Ďtwoí, does in fact equal two and an apple does in fact equal an apple because thatís the way we define it.

Another definition

3. a word or symbol, or a combination of words or symbols, used in counting or in noting a total.
4. the particular numeral assigned to an object so as to designate its place in a series: house number; license number.

The number two is definitively a symbol or a combination of symbols and can't be disorganized from its meaning.

Itís like your asking to prove that a stop sign actually means stop. Your logic for a stop sign meaning something else is from a notion that on some far off galaxy there might be a life form that interprets the symbol stop as something completely different.

This is also the definition for symbol

a word, phrase, image, or the like having a complex of associated meanings and perceived as having inherent value separable from that which is symbolized, as being part of that which is symbolized, and as performing its normal function of standing for or representing that which is symbolized: usually conceived as deriving its meaning chiefly from the structure in which it appears, and generally distinguished from a sign.

If you wanted to deconstruct the symbolism of two and apply another meaning to it you couldnít use that kind of improbable logic, where you fantasize about some being in a far off galaxy that betters us, yet uses the same language we do. That kind of logic is more science fiction than anything. You would have to dispute ď2 + 2 = 5Ē by giving another currently used math system that works and is used by people.
A being from a different galaxy recognizes and uses numeric equations and the symbolism for the number 2 as being completely different from ours in there language is asinine.

First off, one of the problems with that is mathematics is a human created language and itís wrong to assume that any other being can relate to our language that we founded.

For example, that would be an anomaly in the first place but also it would be like, instead of a cat meowing, a cat using symbolism thatís the foundation of the way humans organize and identify symbolism.
Surely another life form from another galaxy wouldn't use the same system that we use.

Since humans are the only beings that can agree on the language we created, 'mathematics', we are the only creatures that can define the symbol of two as being two.

If you created a language of symbolism, you have the right to define your symbolism a certain way as long as a good portion of people followed your language and since its your language, there is no way it can be disputed. Itís obviously right.

I know you guys are not saying 2 + 2 is 5 but you are asking for proof of the symbol two equaling to the symbol two and since this is our made up imaginary code, it does equal two, since thatís the way we define it.
#68  
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Posts: 911/1035
(16-Feb-2008 at 18:28)
Yup I agree mathematics is human made symbolism and nothing else.
#69  
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(17-Feb-2008 at 21:13)


Mathematics is actually more of a measuring system. Just as easily as you ask "what is 2?" I can ask "what is a mile?" These questions can be answered by saying 2 is 1+1, or a mile is 5,280 feet. Then you can ask what 1 is, or what a foot is. That can obviously go on forever.

Just because you cant define a mile without using another measurement unit, can you say a mile doesn't exist? Well then you very well cant say 2 doesn't exist. Obviously the definition of 1+1=2 and 1 mile = 5280 feet suffice then.

Mathematics may be slightly abstract thinking, but its very real.

"Hmph, you and your third dimension."
"What about it?" "Oh nothing, itís cute. We have five."
"Th-thousand."
"Yes five thousand."
"Donít question it."
#70  
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(Posted as matinog)
Posts: 690/922
(18-Feb-2008 at 03:39)


mathematics is 100% made up. It only exist in our head and nowhere else.
#71  
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Posts: 2064/2670
(18-Feb-2008 at 03:56)


Mathematics is not "made up and 100% in our head" pink flying elephants are. Gnomes are, the force is, not math.

Want to know why, because it works and has a practical application.

Math is abstract, yes. Made up, no.

I might as well ask you the question I posed in my last response, Matinog.

Does a mile exist, or is that made up too?

"Hmph, you and your third dimension."
"What about it?" "Oh nothing, itís cute. We have five."
"Th-thousand."
"Yes five thousand."
"Donít question it."
#72  
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Posts: 233/294
(18-Feb-2008 at 06:00)
First off, I would like to point out the obvious that math is not something that is only in our heads because we definitly have tools for math like rulers.

Next I would like to point out that math is infact "made up" but not neccesarily fiction.

Also, well, math is more for measurements that doesn't mean its not symbolism too. Math can symbolise a whole array of colors, leters, perspectives... ect.
A measurment of distance will tell you how far you travel. A sequence of numbers can also represent what color something is.

I will give you the perfect instance of "2 + 2 = 5" and I am so supprised that no one used this example, especially since this board is apprently loaded with scientist and ultra smart people.

I am gonna be the devils advlocate(sp?) in this instance.

Say I was programming in visual basic (a simple high lvl programing languange) Say I programmed a calculator for my consumer and they calculated 2 + 2, the answer to that question would appear in the 'text box' as 4 but the math doesn't only equal 4 unless I say it does. Simple algebriac strings will enable me to program the sequence of 2 + 2 = 4 into 2 + 2 = 4 ALSO the design color for that string will equal color 5 and will be displayed only when that specific mathematic formula "2 + 2 = 4" is calculated.

it would show up something like this.

"If B + B = E then background.color = "5"
"end if"

I don't know exactly how to program it but thats basically how it would work. 2 + 2 would equal 4 in numeric value but represent 5 in color value.
Remeber math isn't only numbers.

Moving on

Say I invented this basketball game in visual basic and the hoop that I drew was displayed in area "5" but it took exactly 2 dribbles + a 2 foot toss from area 3 ( or whatever) to make the ball go through the net, in this instance 2 + 2 = 5 thus scoring a point.

In these examples it makes more sense than if you take a bite out of an apple its . whatever less of an apple.

You can make 2 + 2 = 5

Hopefully this makes sense

edit

In the basketball instance you were not applying the number two to 1 and 1 although 2 still equals 2 but you are giving 2 and 2 unique indentities while still being of numeric value and following the rules of math.

Last edited by Ninjoo, 18-Feb-2008 at 06:10.
#73  
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Posts: 912/1035
(18-Feb-2008 at 09:25)
Re: 2 + 2 = 5

Originally Posted by Chillin: View Post
Mathematics is actually more of a measuring system. Just as easily as you ask "what is 2?" I can ask "what is a mile?" These questions can be answered by saying 2 is 1+1, or a mile is 5,280 feet. Then you can ask what 1 is, or what a foot is. That can obviously go on forever.

Just because you cant define a mile without using another measurement unit, can you say a mile doesn't exist? Well then you very well cant say 2 doesn't exist. Obviously the definition of 1+1=2 and 1 mile = 5280 feet suffice then.

Mathematics may be slightly abstract thinking, but its very real.
1 metre is the length of path travelled by light in vacuum during a time interval of 1/299792458 of a second, 1 second is the duration of 9192631770 periods of a certain atom.A mile is 1 metre times as many metres a mile is.

Wheres the exact definition of what a number is ?

Quote:
Mathematics is not "made up and 100% in our head" pink flying elephants are. Gnomes are, the force is, not math.

Want to know why, because it works and has a practical application.
Saying the world is flat works as well yet it isnt true we know today.

Last edited by Pollock, 18-Feb-2008 at 09:32.
#74  
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Posts: 2065/2670
(18-Feb-2008 at 09:27)


Ok, genius, explain to me what a second is now...I can go on for ever... ((sorry seems I missed you saying what a second was, my bad...but my next point is even more relevant))

EDIT - Not too mention, explain to me what this means - "1/299792458"

Surely you wouldn't be using a number to define something!!!!!!!!!!

EDIT #2 - Math can prove itself, the world obviously cannot prove that it is flat, so its a big difference, sorry.

"Hmph, you and your third dimension."
"What about it?" "Oh nothing, itís cute. We have five."
"Th-thousand."
"Yes five thousand."
"Donít question it."

Last edited by Chillin, 18-Feb-2008 at 09:35.
Edit reason: is that a NUMBER you just used in your defintion?
#75  
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Posts: 913/1035
(18-Feb-2008 at 09:54)
Re: 2 + 2 = 5

Originally Posted by Chillin: View Post
Ok, genius, explain to me what a second is now...I can go on for ever... ((sorry seems I missed you saying what a second was, my bad...but my next point is even more relevant))

EDIT - Not too mention, explain to me what this means - "1/299792458"

Surely you wouldn't be using a number to define something!!!!!!!!!!

EDIT #2 - Math can prove itself, the world obviously cannot prove that it is flat, so its a big difference, sorry.
I gave you the definition of a mile now give me a definition of what a number is using things I can feel,see or touch.

its no big difference we thought the world was flat until Copernicus, we thought integrals didnt exist until Leibnis invented them, we thought newtonian physics was the way to describe the world until relativity came and so on.

Mathematics is a way to modell the world and shouldnt be be considered as anything else, just as the idea that the world is flat was changed when better science arrives, maths is changed when better science arrives.
#76  
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Posts: 2066/2670
(18-Feb-2008 at 10:02)


You didn't give me the definition of a mile "using things I can see feel or touch", in fact you used NUMBERS to define it, 3 times you used numbers and basic math problems to DEFINE something.

If numbers are so absolute that you freely use them in a DEFINITION of something, then obviously I am right, and really don't need to define what a number is huh?

You cant define a mile by using things you can "see feel or touch", yet you say its more real than the numbers you are using to define the mile? I can define a number without referencing any units of distance measurement, so they are obviously more real than a mile huh?

You more or less boned your whole argument by using numbers in a definition there buddy. How can you define something by using a number if a number is not absolute? You basically proved my point. Thanks.

EDIT

Quote:
Mathematics is a way to modell the world and shouldnt be be considered as anything else, just as the idea that the world is flat was changed when better science arrives, maths is changed when better science arrives.
Tell me one time where a math problem that was solved, was ever changed. If it was correctly solved it was right, and thus does not need changing.

"Hmph, you and your third dimension."
"What about it?" "Oh nothing, itís cute. We have five."
"Th-thousand."
"Yes five thousand."
"Donít question it."

Last edited by Chillin, 18-Feb-2008 at 10:04.
Edit reason: Digging yourself a deeper hole, youll never win this arguement
#77  
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Posts: 914/1035
(18-Feb-2008 at 10:37)
Re: 2 + 2 = 5

Originally Posted by Chillin: View Post
You didn't give me the definition of a mile "using things I can see feel or touch", in fact you used NUMBERS to define it, 3 times you used numbers and basic math problems to DEFINE something.

If numbers are so absolute that you freely use them in a DEFINITION of something, then obviously I am right, and really don't need to define what a number is huh?

You cant define a mile by using things you can "see feel or touch", yet you say its more real than the numbers you are using to define the mile? I can define a number without referencing any units of distance measurement, so they are obviously more real than a mile huh?

You more or less boned your whole argument by using numbers in a definition there buddy. How can you define something by using a number if a number is not absolute? You basically proved my point. Thanks.

EDIT



Tell me one time where a math problem that was solved, was ever changed. If it was correctly solved it was right, and thus does not need changing.
No im using numbers as a tool to describe something else your using numbers to describe itself, 2 completely different things.

A mile is more real than a number because I CAN measure it. I can sense the light particle with equipment I can measure periods of a certain material I can divide the second into intervals.
#78  
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Posts: 2068/2670
(18-Feb-2008 at 10:52)


Quote:
No im using numbers as a tool to describe something else your using numbers to describe itself, 2 completely different things.
How can you use numbers as a tool, from what you have said in this thread it seems to me like you think math and numbers are just made up nonsense... Unless I'm wrong, and you think numbers and math are absolute, and think they can warrant defining something, like you just did. If thats the case, let me know and I'll stop arguing.

Quote:
A mile is more real than a number because I CAN measure it.
You can measure it USING MATH.......

dude....just....stop lol

Im gunna go to sleep when the hour ticks, hopefully I can be done with this thread for today, but I find it so amusing people actually try to argue this...

Lets try another exercise....

Answer this question honestly, "Do you beleive that 2+2=5?"

I'll go ahead and assume that your going to answer "No", so Ill proceed based based upon that assumption.

Next question, "Has 2+2 ever equaled 5?"

Once again I'll assume you answer "No", and go on based on that assumption.

Now look at the the name of the thread, and answer me this final question, "Why are you arguing with me?"

"Hmph, you and your third dimension."
"What about it?" "Oh nothing, itís cute. We have five."
"Th-thousand."
"Yes five thousand."
"Donít question it."

Last edited by Chillin, 18-Feb-2008 at 10:55.
Edit reason: good stuff huh
#79  
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Posts: 915/1035
(18-Feb-2008 at 11:08)
Re: 2 + 2 = 5

Originally Posted by Chillin: View Post
How can you use numbers as a tool, from what you have said in this thread it seems to me like you think math and numbers are just made up nonsense... Unless I'm wrong, and you think numbers and math are absolute, and think they can warrant defining something, like you just did. If thats the case, let me know and I'll stop arguing.

You can measure it USING MATH.......

dude....just....stop lol

Im gunna go to sleep when the hour ticks, hopefully I can be done with this thread for today, but I find it so amusing people actually try to argue this...

Lets try another exercise....

Answer this question honestly, "Do you beleive that 2+2=5?"

I'll go ahead and assume that your going to answer "No", so Ill proceed based based upon that assumption.

Next question, "Has 2+2 ever equaled 5?"

Once again I'll assume you answer "No", and go on based on that assumption.

Now look at the the name of the thread, and answer me this final question, "Why are you arguing with me?"
If your asking if a+b=b+a, a+a=2*a my answer to that would be yes.

If your asking if dada+baba=gogo, ha+ho=lo my answer to that is depends on what dada,baba,gogo,ha,ho,lo is.
#80  
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