Posts: 2069/2670
(18Feb2008 at 10:29) 
If your gonna actually try and tell me you don't know what 2 and 4 are, then its not even worth wasting my time to argue with you. If your argument is now reduced to trying to act like you don't realize what form I'm using in expressing these numbers, all your doing is arguing semantics. Either way your arguments have seemed to hit a brick wall.
But for shits and giggles Ill clarify for you. Using the decimal, or base 10 system, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Decimal, answer the following three questions for me. Does 2+2=5? Has 2+2 ever equaled 5? (now look at the name of the thread) Why are you arguing with me? Better? Lets see you sidestep that one, cant argue the system of expression anymore, which has been fallen back to as a last resort a few times in this thread already. If you want I'm sure I can go figure out how to express the same question in binary, duodecimal, or hexadecimal, if it will make it easier for you. Doesn't matter how its expressed, means the same thing. And I'm still waiting for you to define a mile without using numbers. Id also like to see a math problem that was solved correctly and ever changed. You convinetly seem to just ignore those questions, so Ill re ask them. Now, I really am going to bed. I'm sure when I wake up I'll get to see some garbage answers most likely and laugh again as I have at 90% of the posts in this thread other than my own. "What about it?" "Oh nothing, it’s cute. We have five." "Ththousand." "Yes five thousand." "Don’t question it." 


Posts: 2070/2670
(18Feb2008 at 18:28) 
Quote:
example
(If 2(power) AND 2(accuracy) = true then 5(distance) = on) (msgbox "Player 1 scores") (if 2(power) and 2(accuracy) Is greater than, less than 2 from 5(distance) then 5(distance) = off (msbox " You missed the basket") All that program says is this, "If power =2, accuracy =2, and distance =5, THEN display "player one scores". In no way does it say 2+2=5, it says if this is 2 and that is 2 and this is 5, then this happens. Fairly big difference, thats why ignored it originally, sorry. Your orange and mango thing doesn't work either. If you have 2 oranges (2 fruits) and 2 mangos (2 fruits), and you put them together, bottom line is you got 4 fruits, end of story. You cant compare fruits to smoothies, they are different. You cant even say 2 fruits +2 fruits = 4 fruits + 1 smoothie, because the 4 fruits and the smoothie are the same thing. Id still like a answer to my above post too.... "What about it?" "Oh nothing, it’s cute. We have five." "Ththousand." "Yes five thousand." "Don’t question it." 


Posts: 916/1035
(18Feb2008 at 18:36) 
Re: 2 + 2 = 5
First off, my post was ignored for some reason. I demonstrated instances where the combination of 2 + 2 can equal five. My post was very relevent but since it was not replied to I have to assume that I was unclear.
I am gonna make it clear as I possibly can. I didn't break the rules of math. I used the rules of math on my side to prove instances of 2 + 2 = 5. (example) I invented a basketball game in 'visual basic'. I implemented skill lvling in this game. The skills are aquired by training. In order to make a basket you need a certain amount of skill. My player was able to make a basket 5 feet away from the hoop. In order for my player to make this basket, I had to have an array of skill. One skill is "shot power" which I lvled to 'two'. The other skill was "shot accuracy" which I also lvled to 'two'. The forumla for this equation is 2(power) + 2(accuracy) = 5 (distance) thus scoring a point. This is not a word problem and actually an agebriac string of practical logic using math. example (If 2(power) AND 2(accuracy) = true then 5(distance) = on) (msgbox "Player 1 scores") (if 2(power) and 2(accuracy) Is greater than, less than 2 from 5(distance) then 5(distance) = off (msbox " You missed the basket") I didn't "dim" global variables in this situation like (If score = true then add 2 if not then add 0) but you should get the picture. This isn't some random problem not using purley math.. infact it completley relies on mathematical rules being currect to work. In order to use math to help solve a problem you will need various elements. A mile of distance equals a good element to calculate because in this instance the math language would read. ("5200 feet" = "1 mile") (If "5200 feet" = true then 1 mile = true) (if "1 foot" = true then 1 foot is >= to 1) What this basically means is every time you calculate one foot that you step then another foot is added. When you reach 5200 feet it will be noted that a mile is completed. In order for you to calculate the distance of a mile you need variables and elements like feet otherwise you couldn't use math in a working sequence to define the distance of a mile. For instance, if you were put in the wilderness by your boy scout leader with no tools other than nature at your disposal to calculate the distance that you achieved you would have to use the some of the five senses at your disposal. Hypothetically say your boy scout master put you in a race with no instruments to calculate your distance in the wilderness you have traveled. You would have to define your distance by the elements of nature. Example "The chemical plant to the lake is one mile and I have to prove this by travel" " I know once I pass the chemical plant in space by smell of the sulphur, I am some what closer to my goal." "I know once I see the red flag hung from a tree I am almost the distance of the goal" In this example you are trying to calculate a mile with only senes and not math. The distance of a mile no longer is = to numbers or inches but smell and sight thus you are able to calculate and define a mile from start to finish with out numbers. Moving on there are other simple things that make 2 + 2 = to 5 that everyone can relate to such a recipe. Say I have 2 oranges and 2 mangos and those just happen to be the ingrediance for my "orangos" (name of smothie) smoothie. 2 + 2 is mixed together to create one recipe. You are not adding any other elements exept 2 oranges and 2 mangos thus comming up with 5 "things" and one smothie. 2oranges + 2mangos is = to 5elements because with your mixture of 2 + 2, you now created a whole unique thing but the fact is you didn't add any other things to create this recipe thus following the rules of math in a every day event as making food. while 2/2 in this instance equals 1smothie which is mathematically correct, 2 + 2 = 5 unique things which is also mathematically correct. The 5 unique things include 2 oranges, 2 mangos, and one smoothie. I answered every question you presented in this post on both sides with correct algebriac strings. To disprove that math is 100% working you can just take simple elemnts like the speed of light equalling as fast as the human speed has been calculted. Math is an imaginery graph and is also a nonimaginary graph. The paradox is possible. This illustrates the problem with numbers you can imagionate adding 2 things that are equal with 2 things that are equal and get 4 things that are equal. However in nature things that are equal doesnt exist. 


Posts: 2071/2670
(18Feb2008 at 18:45) 
That problem doesn't illustrate anything, you cant add unlike things, period.
Thats like saying 2 + x = 6, without knowing what x is. You cant simplify 2 + x = 6 any further, without knowing that value. 2 mangos + 2 oranges = 1 smoothie that may or may not be true but ill tell you this 2 + 2 =/= 1 Adding descriptors to the numbers is CHANGING THE PROBLEM Furthermore.... 1 mango = 1 fruit 1 orange = 1 fruit 1 smoothie = 4 fruits (not 5) Thats about as close as you can get to anything relevant from that. You cant compare unlike things, you can say a car has 100k parts just bercause thats true, you can just simply say 1=100k its not true, very simple. And good job avoiding that question I posed now 3 posts ago by commenting on Ninjoos nonsense (sorry ninjoo) "What about it?" "Oh nothing, it’s cute. We have five." "Ththousand." "Yes five thousand." "Don’t question it." 



I'm with Chillin on this one. Base 4, base 8, base 64 and all the rest may be useful in certain circumstances, like coding, or understanding different numerical systems, but the question in itself is useless. Some people think they are very clever when responding in the "not in base 4" way, to a question regarding simple maths like 2+2. But there's only so many times that will work as a "joke", and it doesn't really make anyone look smarter.
My Skype is kapteindynetrekk 


Posts: 917/1035
(18Feb2008 at 19:19) 
Re: 2 + 2 = 5
If your gonna actually try and tell me you don't know what 2 and 4 are, then its not even worth wasting my time to argue with you. If your argument is now reduced to trying to act like you don't realize what form I'm using in expressing these numbers, all your doing is arguing semantics. Either way your arguments have seemed to hit a brick wall.
But for shits and giggles Ill clarify for you. Using the decimal, or base 10 system, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Decimal, answer the following three questions for me. Does 2+2=5? Has 2+2 ever equaled 5? (now look at the name of the thread) Why are you arguing with me? Better? Lets see you sidestep that one, cant argue the system of expression anymore, which has been fallen back to as a last resort a few times in this thread already. If you want I'm sure I can go figure out how to express the same question in binary, duodecimal, or hexadecimal, if it will make it easier for you. Doesn't matter how its expressed, means the same thing. And I'm still waiting for you to define a mile without using numbers. Id also like to see a math problem that was solved correctly and ever changed. You convinetly seem to just ignore those questions, so Ill re ask them. Now, I really am going to bed. I'm sure when I wake up I'll get to see some garbage answers most likely and laugh again as I have at 90% of the posts in this thread other than my own. That is like saying "im white" + "im a human" = "All humans are White" A statement where p is correct and q is correct however the conclusion pUq is wrong. The error being that you havnt taken into consideration every possible case and thus cant prove your statement. Has 2+2 ever equaled anything else than 4 ? NO but that doesnt mean that 2+2=4 in all circuimstances just that we humans have choosen that way to use maths. In theory theres nothing to stop an alian race to use 2 things + 2 things =5 things, unlogical sure, but wrong no, its fully possible as long as I choose to be consistant. A mile; Lets use a tape measurer of infinate length I hold the first end my friend the other and goes 1.6km (or whatever a mile is) and theres your definition of what a mile is;the distance ligth travels in a very short period of time;A small portion of the circumference of the earth.3 things that I can feel and touch. Of course a mile is nothing but human made symbolism as well but at least not as important as numbers are. And why would a math problem that is solved correctly ever be changed? the solution wont change but the problem can very well do so.As maths is making a modell of the world the answer in every instance of time will be correct but it doent mean the problem is the same in every instance of time.(provided of course the problem is correctly solved) Newtonian physics for example was long thought as the only way to describe the world however in the 20th century Einstein and others discovered that it didnt work near speed of light  doesnt mean the answer in Newtonian physics is incorrect for normal speeds, just that the problem is different at near the speed of light. (Physics is a direct application of maths) Last edited by Pollock, 18Feb2008 at 19:24. 


Posts: 7336/8194
(18Feb2008 at 20:18) 
Re: 2 + 2 = 5
Mathematics is not "made up and 100% in our head" pink flying elephants are. Gnomes are, the force is, not math.
Want to know why, because it works and has a practical application. 


Posts: 2072/2670
(18Feb2008 at 20:48) 
Quote:
Has 2+2 ever equaled anything else than 4 ? NO but that doesnt mean that 2+2=4 in all circuimstances
I really want to hear this one, thats what I have been asking all along. "What about it?" "Oh nothing, it’s cute. We have five." "Ththousand." "Yes five thousand." "Don’t question it." 


Posts: 236/294
(18Feb2008 at 20:50) 
I am gonna have to go with pollock on this instance.
There is a science that involves abstract seemingly impossible circumstances that involve paradoxes in multiple things. As a person trying to disprove mathematical equations you literly have to think of 'the impossible' from oustside the box and apply it to 'inside the box' theries. For this question "Does two plus two always equal five"? I will pose another question that will help you think outside of the box. "What are the logical alternitives for human existance other than evolution and religion?" In this instance I am questioning a factor of science that hasn't truly been formed and invented yet. With math since there are infinity possible situations and combinations that are probable its impossible to reach a pinicale of absolution in any data that we obtain. While math certainly works in explaining things, the math in a whole is not 100% of what it can be because it can always be approved upon and thus disproven. Not only that but infinity is not solid but a sketchy line of linearness which doesn't work in real terms. If you are givin a problem with infinity being a factor in it a while loop happens thus freezing a string data and nothing calculates until this problem is figured out. Math breaks down ultimately to logic and not numbers. Essentially the "logic of numbers and reasoning" To disprove 2 has any instances of equalling two I am gonna create an infinite solution that doesn't work. Msgbox >=1"" While 2 = 4 wend if This problem will actually remain forever and be unending. You can see how this puts an error when applied to a program. Since you might have infinite possibilties that you have to achieve you can see the problem because time freezes and nothing else works exept this string. Thus a paradox because how could time freeze if its forever moving. The solution to the proving the paradox is easy. In the program, thats not the only thing your suppose to calculate. The while loop is a smaller calculation of the programs functions in whole thus making an unseen error come up by ending all task until this task is completed. The logic in programing relies soley on numbers and variables thus making it math. Its like a ruler relying on CM and IN to calculate its data. The ruler is math and on a piece of wood just like programming is math inside a program. Why I used this example is 2 + 2 can only equal 4 if the math is used in sequence of 2 as an arbitruary number founded from infinity equating to two too. Its a paralelle universe of numbers in this sequence of thought that calculate the number twos function and indentity. Math is not only definend by the numbers it uses to prove itself but the sequence of logic that is applied Moving on a smothie is only the components that created it. Plus a new unique object containing the product you made it with. The smothie doesn't obtain another variable. the fruit does because its applied to the smothie. sub A + sub A (fruits) = Whole A. Sub A may stand for 2 fruits but it equals 2.5 of an object thats in the making The four fruits equal 2 + 2 while in a parelle universe of mathematics 2 fruits equal one half of the whole smothie drink The diffrence between my logic and your logic is you are saying Sub A + sub B = C while Sub A + sub B = 2 Sub C = 1 I am saying 1 smothie = four fruits 1 smothie + 4 fruits = 5 objects While 2 fruits + 2 fruits = 1 smothie 1 smothie / 0 = four fruits 2 fruits + 2 fruits mixed = 5 fruity objects My point is a smothie is not unlike fruit. A smothie is fruit. And nothing else. Smothie = fruit and fruit makes a smothie. The problem of 2 + 2 itself is imaginery unless you add some sorta descriptor. Numbers have to be applied to something or else they are useless and a science of garble. Chill you are adding a discriptor in and of itself when you describe what is takes to make the recipie I am not saying what it takes to make the recipie in my math. I am saying I have 5 objects. I didn't create matter just simply mixed matter and came up with a solution of how many fruity objects are now presented in front of me. As I said earlier a math problem with no variables is compeletly useless and is meaningless 


(Posted as matinog)
Posts: 691/922 (18Feb2008 at 21:13) 
if every body decided to make 2+2=5 and every one agreed then thats what it would be equal to. A mile is whatever you make it to be and what is has been said to be in the past, but without humans a mile doesn't exist, land exist. The concept of giving specific measurements to distances is a man made thing. Or are you truly going to disagree with this? You can also use boolean math if thats what the problem requires, but we made up boolean math to serve our needs, the same thing as regular decimal math.



Posts: 238/294
(18Feb2008 at 22:32) 
I think chill is trying to say that 2 + 2 = 4 already works in practice.
I think chill is also saying the mile still exist weather we know it or not. The land exist but the distance also exist. For instance if we were sharks the distance we would have to swim to make a kill still exist but since sharks have pea brains they can't calculate the distance. The drop of blood that they can smell 100 miles away would still be that distance away even if math didn't exist. Its all about time and space. Chill is also saying that you can't prove factual math false with other math. Just as you couldn't prove a fire doesn't exist by using a fire as an example. That truly makes no sense. Can you prove the ingrediance of chemicals it takes to make a fire wrong if its already proven how many chemicals can make that fire? Of course you can't thats just plane retarted. You can prove that diffrent chemcials can make fire thus diffrent amounts of chemicals apply but math still works to factor that in. 2 + 2 as a simple equation with always equal 4. Lol my dad would say something like 2 + 2 = 5? That must be that new math. 2 + 2 as an extremely complex equation doesn't have to equal 4 all of the time. I am still discussing this because I believe in math of numbers when applied to something can equal a diffrent equation than normal. The formula by itself though of 2 + 2 will always equal four exept in the instance that infinite paradox can be used in numerical value Also unless we discover that the whole human foundation of math is wrong than 2 + 2 will remain four Last edited by Ninjoo, 18Feb2008 at 22:35. 


(Posted as matinog)
Posts: 692/922 (19Feb2008 at 04:45) 
Quote:
Also unless we discover that the whole human foundation of math is wrong than 2 + 2 will remain four



Posts: 243/294
(19Feb2008 at 06:00) 
Physical laws of nature are also not always absolute.. infact nothing is absolute when traveling in and out of dimentions.
Physical laws of nature are absolute until you find a giant whole in the sky that sucks matter into it. I would be much more comfortable with that statement if you said the physical laws of earth as we expirience it are absolute in this current time setting. Also I don't believe at all that all things in nature cause pre determoned actions in a non religious sense. Think about science and how we can make a chemical reaction using two elements and two other elements In one sense of the sentence it is true that we decided to make that reaction. In the other sense of the sentence us making that reaction happen had nothing to do with nature and the law of physics. A more simple example is if a car gets sideswiped by a truck chances are this was accidential. To apply this to nature. It wasn't predetermined that global warming would effect the earth. Humans caused that. Its all about cause and effect in this statement which can't be concluded as pre determined because there are infinite factors that constantly effect the cause and effect. I meant to say the only way we can be sure that two + two doesn't equal four is if human foundation of mathematics is enevidibly proven wrong. 


Posts: 919/1035
(19Feb2008 at 09:29) 
Re: 2 + 2 = 5
As I explained The Human Mathematical modell of the world is based upon some assumption one of them being a+a=2*a so in our modell 2+2=4. That doesnt mean there are other possible modells in maths (other bases is one such modell). Just that we have choosen not to use them



Posts: 246/294
(19Feb2008 at 11:04) 
All math is related to variables.
I thought that was proven. What is the problem 2 + 2 = 4 Hmm what are my formula options to prove this sequence is true? Well I could add 1 + 1 assuming that I derived to the conclusion of 2 through 1. Which is logically called a counter and thats why I used programming. I can prove this question right through using a couter but I can prove this question wrong through the absense of that technique. I can disprove that 2 + 2 = 4 using a string. I can prove 2 + 2 = 5 by using variables (E = mc2 for instance) I am not that savy enough to prove 2 + 2 = 5 in a quadratic formula which is exactly how you want it preformed. The real question is who can prove 2 + 2 = 5 with a quadratic formula with just using a quadratic formula. The question chillin is asking you to prove takes an extremely high iq. I think the stipulations that chillin has provided are enough to answer the questions he wants. (btw I don't know if the forumla that he is looking for you to prove is quadratic but I believe calculus or algebra can prove 2 + 2 = 5. Which is also why I used programming because the logic in programming uses calculus and algebra easily) 


Posts: 920/1035
(19Feb2008 at 15:57) 
Re: 2 + 2 = 5
All math is related to variables.
I thought that was proven. What is the problem 2 + 2 = 4 Hmm what are my formula options to prove this sequence is true? Well I could add 1 + 1 assuming that I derived to the conclusion of 2 through 1. Which is logically called a counter and thats why I used programming. I can prove this question right through using a couter but I can prove this question wrong through the absense of that technique. I can disprove that 2 + 2 = 4 using a string. I can prove 2 + 2 = 5 by using variables (E = mc2 for instance) I am not that savy enough to prove 2 + 2 = 5 in a quadratic formula which is exactly how you want it preformed. The real question is who can prove 2 + 2 = 5 with a quadratic formula with just using a quadratic formula. The question chillin is asking you to prove takes an extremely high iq. I think the stipulations that chillin has provided are enough to answer the questions he wants. (btw I don't know if the forumla that he is looking for you to prove is quadratic but I believe calculus or algebra can prove 2 + 2 = 5. Which is also why I used programming because the logic in programming uses calculus and algebra easily) Both work however they arent the same, maths and programming isnt the same as they are based upon different things. 


Posts: 248/294
(19Feb2008 at 23:33) 
Sorry pollock but I am gonna have to prove you wrong on that point.
'Programming is a diffrent type of math' Programing is the exact same type of math that proves 2 + 2 = 4 Programming in itself is logic that only uses math. For instance just because you create a diffrent problem that doesn't mean the same base system and logics that are in math are not there. They are its just way more complicated to understand and obviously to concept is way over your head to piece together. (no offense) Its not a new form of math using counters its just the form of math that uses 1 + 1 = 2 (infinitly) given a name. In lower forms of programming you use so much of the basic math like counters to prove your solutions Before you get confussed you should know that in programing language the lower languages use much MUCH more absolute basic math such as binary code thus its extremely diffrent to make your program work and involves extrodinary high lvls of counters, strings, variables, and so forth. I can't even explain the infinitate amount of math that the programs on low lvl langauge uses. It not new math or some other form of math it is the some of the logic uses the same exact math that can be proven to kindergarden students like 2 + 2 = 4 The language inside of the code you have proven relies on math to work in these instances. Meaning to change 2 + 2s logic you have have to manipulate the math with the math languges own logic that is relevent in actual terms. This isn't some other theory of math that takes apart the pieces of one ball and puts the pieces back together and makes it 2 balls. Programming relies on the soul of everyday math we use to make your code correct. I'm sorry man but programming isn't that simple to define as a variable math. A program works nothing like that but the coding inside your program that you proved can work like that but the coding for the fundementals of the language of math itself remain as what you can understand not knowing programming like 2 + 2 = 4 You have to ask me to manipulate the logic of the basic math sub system for 2 + 2 = 5. You can't prove a definition by defining a word in and of itself The proof comes from logic of math and reason to define a counter In order to say 1 + 1 = greater than 1 for infinity and 1 numerial gets added in the addition with out programming... you still have to define this process as a counter and the defintion of math It works like this breaking down from least to greatest. Numeric system using addition = a math system = a counter of logic = numeric system using addition and for infinity The process that makes one and one = two (to infinity) can be defined only as a counter in our language. It all breaks down to what the process is called. Everyone knows you can't define 2 with out 1 in most instances but there is a name for this logic of math and thus a counter. Can a counter be facotred in with a quadratic algebriac formula? Of course it can!!! This is not "diffrent" math this is just how math works. I told you programming uses all of the math that you are talking about and is just a tool to calculate math behind the math For instance In an algebriac expression all variables have to have a purpose To make algebra work you have to use all basic math in most instances and thats why you are not taught something like algebra before you know how to add because its a more advanced system that use basic maths to solvo it. Programming is the same thing exept you have more power to manipulate the force of math but not the language. Now back to the point How 2+2 = any number but 4 using quadratic formula is where the high IQ comes in. Quadratic formula is used in pre algebra but breaks down to couters and dividends and ratios and so on. Thus you will have to come up with varied symbols such as pi to prove that an instance can = 5 Thats where I don't come in because I am not intellegent enough to solve that probelm or even make the problem but thats where you guys come in. Do we have some high iqs on this board that can attempt to disprove that? 


Posts: 2073/2670
(19Feb2008 at 23:56) 
No we dont, using base 10, 2+2 = 4. It always has, it always will. Under any circumstance. 2+2=4 on Earth, Jupiter and on Venus. 2+2 = 4 if your a cat, dog, or monkey. 2+2 = 4 if your in a house, or on a boat. 2+2=4, if your in a vacuum or if your underwater. No one will ever disprove it, end of story.
"What about it?" "Oh nothing, it’s cute. We have five." "Ththousand." "Yes five thousand." "Don’t question it." Last edited by Chillin, 20Feb2008 at 00:00. Edit reason: Do you like it in a house? Do you like it with a mouse? 

