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 Posts: 2069/2670 (18-Feb-2008 at 10:29) If your gonna actually try and tell me you don't know what 2 and 4 are, then its not even worth wasting my time to argue with you. If your argument is now reduced to trying to act like you don't realize what form I'm using in expressing these numbers, all your doing is arguing semantics. Either way your arguments have seemed to hit a brick wall. But for shits and giggles Ill clarify for you. Using the decimal, or base 10 system, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Decimal, answer the following three questions for me. Does 2+2=5? Has 2+2 ever equaled 5? (now look at the name of the thread) Why are you arguing with me? Better? Lets see you sidestep that one, cant argue the system of expression anymore, which has been fallen back to as a last resort a few times in this thread already. If you want I'm sure I can go figure out how to express the same question in binary, duodecimal, or hexadecimal, if it will make it easier for you. Doesn't matter how its expressed, means the same thing. And I'm still waiting for you to define a mile without using numbers. Id also like to see a math problem that was solved correctly and ever changed. You convinetly seem to just ignore those questions, so Ill re ask them. Now, I really am going to bed. I'm sure when I wake up I'll get to see some garbage answers most likely and laugh again as I have at 90% of the posts in this thread other than my own. "Hmph, you and your third dimension." "What about it?" "Oh nothing, its cute. We have five." "Th-thousand." "Yes five thousand." "Dont question it."
 Posts: 2070/2670 (18-Feb-2008 at 18:28) Quote: example (If 2(power) AND 2(accuracy) = true then 5(distance) = on) (msgbox "Player 1 scores") (if 2(power) and 2(accuracy) Is greater than, less than 2 from 5(distance) then 5(distance) = off (msbox " You missed the basket") Only problem is, ninjoo, is that this really isnt math. Your changing basic principals. Using programming knowledge saying "If a = x, then b = y" or anything like that, isnt a true math problem you cant solve a math problem with all variables for one, its i possible. All that program says is this, "If power =2, accuracy =2, and distance =5, THEN display "player one scores". In no way does it say 2+2=5, it says if this is 2 and that is 2 and this is 5, then this happens. Fairly big difference, thats why ignored it originally, sorry. Your orange and mango thing doesn't work either. If you have 2 oranges (2 fruits) and 2 mangos (2 fruits), and you put them together, bottom line is you got 4 fruits, end of story. You cant compare fruits to smoothies, they are different. You cant even say 2 fruits +2 fruits = 4 fruits + 1 smoothie, because the 4 fruits and the smoothie are the same thing. Id still like a answer to my above post too.... "Hmph, you and your third dimension." "What about it?" "Oh nothing, its cute. We have five." "Th-thousand." "Yes five thousand." "Dont question it." Pollock Posts: 916/1035 (18-Feb-2008 at 18:36) Re: 2 + 2 = 5 Originally Posted by Ninjoo: First off, my post was ignored for some reason. I demonstrated instances where the combination of 2 + 2 can equal five. My post was very relevent but since it was not replied to I have to assume that I was unclear. I am gonna make it clear as I possibly can. I didn't break the rules of math. I used the rules of math on my side to prove instances of 2 + 2 = 5. (example) I invented a basketball game in 'visual basic'. I implemented skill lvling in this game. The skills are aquired by training. In order to make a basket you need a certain amount of skill. My player was able to make a basket 5 feet away from the hoop. In order for my player to make this basket, I had to have an array of skill. One skill is "shot power" which I lvled to 'two'. The other skill was "shot accuracy" which I also lvled to 'two'. The forumla for this equation is 2(power) + 2(accuracy) = 5 (distance) thus scoring a point. This is not a word problem and actually an agebriac string of practical logic using math. example (If 2(power) AND 2(accuracy) = true then 5(distance) = on) (msgbox "Player 1 scores") (if 2(power) and 2(accuracy) Is greater than, less than 2 from 5(distance) then 5(distance) = off (msbox " You missed the basket") I didn't "dim" global variables in this situation like (If score = true then add 2 if not then add 0) but you should get the picture. This isn't some random problem not using purley math.. infact it completley relies on mathematical rules being currect to work. In order to use math to help solve a problem you will need various elements. A mile of distance equals a good element to calculate because in this instance the math language would read. ("5200 feet" = "1 mile") (If "5200 feet" = true then 1 mile = true) (if "1 foot" = true then 1 foot is >= to 1) What this basically means is every time you calculate one foot that you step then another foot is added. When you reach 5200 feet it will be noted that a mile is completed. In order for you to calculate the distance of a mile you need variables and elements like feet otherwise you couldn't use math in a working sequence to define the distance of a mile. For instance, if you were put in the wilderness by your boy scout leader with no tools other than nature at your disposal to calculate the distance that you achieved you would have to use the some of the five senses at your disposal. Hypothetically say your boy scout master put you in a race with no instruments to calculate your distance in the wilderness you have traveled. You would have to define your distance by the elements of nature. Example "The chemical plant to the lake is one mile and I have to prove this by travel" " I know once I pass the chemical plant in space by smell of the sulphur, I am some what closer to my goal." "I know once I see the red flag hung from a tree I am almost the distance of the goal" In this example you are trying to calculate a mile with only senes and not math. The distance of a mile no longer is = to numbers or inches but smell and sight thus you are able to calculate and define a mile from start to finish with out numbers. Moving on there are other simple things that make 2 + 2 = to 5 that everyone can relate to such a recipe. Say I have 2 oranges and 2 mangos and those just happen to be the ingrediance for my "orangos" (name of smothie) smoothie. 2 + 2 is mixed together to create one recipe. You are not adding any other elements exept 2 oranges and 2 mangos thus comming up with 5 "things" and one smothie. 2oranges + 2mangos is = to 5elements because with your mixture of 2 + 2, you now created a whole unique thing but the fact is you didn't add any other things to create this recipe thus following the rules of math in a every day event as making food. while 2/2 in this instance equals 1smothie which is mathematically correct, 2 + 2 = 5 unique things which is also mathematically correct. The 5 unique things include 2 oranges, 2 mangos, and one smoothie. I answered every question you presented in this post on both sides with correct algebriac strings. To disprove that math is 100% working you can just take simple elemnts like the speed of light equalling as fast as the human speed has been calculted. Math is an imaginery graph and is also a non-imaginary graph. The paradox is possible. You mix 2 oranges and 2 mangos and get 1 smoothie isnt 2+2=1 than. This illustrates the problem with numbers you can imagionate adding 2 things that are equal with 2 things that are equal and get 4 things that are equal. However in nature things that are equal doesnt exist.
 Posts: 2071/2670 (18-Feb-2008 at 18:45) That problem doesn't illustrate anything, you cant add unlike things, period. Thats like saying 2 + x = 6, without knowing what x is. You cant simplify 2 + x = 6 any further, without knowing that value. 2 mangos + 2 oranges = 1 smoothie that may or may not be true but ill tell you this 2 + 2 =/= 1 Adding descriptors to the numbers is CHANGING THE PROBLEM Furthermore.... 1 mango = 1 fruit 1 orange = 1 fruit 1 smoothie = 4 fruits (not 5) Thats about as close as you can get to anything relevant from that. You cant compare unlike things, you can say a car has 100k parts just bercause thats true, you can just simply say 1=100k its not true, very simple. And good job avoiding that question I posed now 3 posts ago by commenting on Ninjoos nonsense (sorry ninjoo) "Hmph, you and your third dimension." "What about it?" "Oh nothing, its cute. We have five." "Th-thousand." "Yes five thousand." "Dont question it."
 Posts: 4365/4773 Donated \$9.31 (18-Feb-2008 at 18:56) I'm with Chillin on this one. Base 4, base 8, base 64 and all the rest may be useful in certain circumstances, like coding, or understanding different numerical systems, but the question in itself is useless. Some people think they are very clever when responding in the "not in base 4" way, to a question regarding simple maths like 2+2. But there's only so many times that will work as a "joke", and it doesn't really make anyone look smarter. My MSN is still [email protected]. My Skype is kapteindynetrekk Pollock Posts: 917/1035 (18-Feb-2008 at 19:19) Re: 2 + 2 = 5 Originally Posted by Chillin: If your gonna actually try and tell me you don't know what 2 and 4 are, then its not even worth wasting my time to argue with you. If your argument is now reduced to trying to act like you don't realize what form I'm using in expressing these numbers, all your doing is arguing semantics. Either way your arguments have seemed to hit a brick wall. But for shits and giggles Ill clarify for you. Using the decimal, or base 10 system, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Decimal, answer the following three questions for me. Does 2+2=5? Has 2+2 ever equaled 5? (now look at the name of the thread) Why are you arguing with me? Better? Lets see you sidestep that one, cant argue the system of expression anymore, which has been fallen back to as a last resort a few times in this thread already. If you want I'm sure I can go figure out how to express the same question in binary, duodecimal, or hexadecimal, if it will make it easier for you. Doesn't matter how its expressed, means the same thing. And I'm still waiting for you to define a mile without using numbers. Id also like to see a math problem that was solved correctly and ever changed. You convinetly seem to just ignore those questions, so Ill re ask them. Now, I really am going to bed. I'm sure when I wake up I'll get to see some garbage answers most likely and laugh again as I have at 90% of the posts in this thread other than my own. Did I say I didnt know what 2 and 4 is ? My point is that instead of 2 and 4 you can put in whatever and still be right As long as there isnt a clear definition of what a number is. The best you seem to come up with is that 2=1+1 or 2=3-1 a definition of a number using a number. Or that if you have 2 thing and add 2 things you clearly have 4 things, clearly a definition using a number as well. That is like saying "im white" + "im a human" = "All humans are White" A statement where p is correct and q is correct however the conclusion pUq is wrong. The error being that you havnt taken into consideration every possible case and thus cant prove your statement. Has 2+2 ever equaled anything else than 4 ? NO but that doesnt mean that 2+2=4 in all circuimstances just that we humans have choosen that way to use maths. In theory theres nothing to stop an alian race to use 2 things + 2 things =5 things, unlogical sure, but wrong no, its fully possible as long as I choose to be consistant. A mile; Lets use a tape measurer of infinate length I hold the first end my friend the other and goes 1.6km (or whatever a mile is) and theres your definition of what a mile is;the distance ligth travels in a very short period of time;A small portion of the circumference of the earth.3 things that I can feel and touch. Of course a mile is nothing but human made symbolism as well but at least not as important as numbers are. And why would a math problem that is solved correctly ever be changed? the solution wont change but the problem can very well do so.As maths is making a modell of the world the answer in every instance of time will be correct but it doent mean the problem is the same in every instance of time.(provided of course the problem is correctly solved) Newtonian physics for example was long thought as the only way to describe the world however in the 20th century Einstein and others discovered that it didnt work near speed of light - doesnt mean the answer in Newtonian physics is incorrect for normal speeds, just that the problem is different at near the speed of light. (Physics is a direct application of maths) Last edited by Pollock, 18-Feb-2008 at 19:24. Pollock Posts: 918/1035 (18-Feb-2008 at 19:33) Re: 2 + 2 = 5 Originally Posted by Chillin: you cant add unlike things, period. Agree, so this means numbers doesnt exist in nature as in nature nothing is 100% alike up to the smallest subatom ? Posts: 7336/8194 (18-Feb-2008 at 20:18) Re: 2 + 2 = 5 Originally Posted by Chillin: Mathematics is not "made up and 100% in our head" pink flying elephants are. Gnomes are, the force is, not math. Want to know why, because it works and has a practical application. Math is made up. At its most fundamental level it's playing around with symbols where you start with a few axioms and use them to derive more complex relations. Basic mathematics use axioms that has turned out to be useful in describing the universe. (Exactly why you can describe the universe so well with a few mathematical equations is unclear, but probably intelligent life couldn't appear in a universe too chaotic to obey simple rules). Once you get into more abstract math the practical applications become less common. Take the axiom of choice, which common sense tells you ought to be true, even if it can't be proved. However, once you accept it as true you also have to accept counterintuitive consequences like the BanachTarski paradox in which you can take a solid ball, pick it apart and put it together into two equally large and equally solid balls.
 Posts: 2072/2670 (18-Feb-2008 at 20:48) Quote: Has 2+2 ever equaled anything else than 4 ? NO but that doesnt mean that 2+2=4 in all circuimstances Tell me a situation where 2+2 =/= 4 (using a base ten system too, sorry that excuse inst gonna work anymore) I really want to hear this one, thats what I have been asking all along. "Hmph, you and your third dimension." "What about it?" "Oh nothing, its cute. We have five." "Th-thousand." "Yes five thousand." "Dont question it." Mandraque (Posted as matinog) Posts: 691/922 (18-Feb-2008 at 21:13) if every body decided to make 2+2=5 and every one agreed then thats what it would be equal to. A mile is whatever you make it to be and what is has been said to be in the past, but without humans a mile doesn't exist, land exist. The concept of giving specific measurements to distances is a man made thing. Or are you truly going to disagree with this? You can also use boolean math if thats what the problem requires, but we made up boolean math to serve our needs, the same thing as regular decimal math.
 Posts: 238/294 (18-Feb-2008 at 22:32) I think chill is trying to say that 2 + 2 = 4 already works in practice. I think chill is also saying the mile still exist weather we know it or not. The land exist but the distance also exist. For instance if we were sharks the distance we would have to swim to make a kill still exist but since sharks have pea brains they can't calculate the distance. The drop of blood that they can smell 100 miles away would still be that distance away even if math didn't exist. Its all about time and space. Chill is also saying that you can't prove factual math false with other math. Just as you couldn't prove a fire doesn't exist by using a fire as an example. That truly makes no sense. Can you prove the ingrediance of chemicals it takes to make a fire wrong if its already proven how many chemicals can make that fire? Of course you can't thats just plane retarted. You can prove that diffrent chemcials can make fire thus diffrent amounts of chemicals apply but math still works to factor that in. 2 + 2 as a simple equation with always equal 4. Lol my dad would say something like 2 + 2 = 5? That must be that new math. 2 + 2 as an extremely complex equation doesn't have to equal 4 all of the time. I am still discussing this because I believe in math of numbers when applied to something can equal a diffrent equation than normal. The formula by itself though of 2 + 2 will always equal four exept in the instance that infinite paradox can be used in numerical value Also unless we discover that the whole human foundation of math is wrong than 2 + 2 will remain four Last edited by Ninjoo, 18-Feb-2008 at 22:35. Mandraque (Posted as matinog) Posts: 692/922 (19-Feb-2008 at 04:45) Quote: Also unless we discover that the whole human foundation of math is wrong than 2 + 2 will remain four that statement is fundamentally wrong because we make math what it is. If we(humans), see in the future that math will work better if some rule is changed then it can be done, because we make math what it is. Physical laws of nature are absolute, we might misunderstand them in the begging but all things in nature follow predetermined actions in predetermined situations that will always be the same.
 Posts: 243/294 (19-Feb-2008 at 06:00) Physical laws of nature are also not always absolute.. infact nothing is absolute when traveling in and out of dimentions. Physical laws of nature are absolute until you find a giant whole in the sky that sucks matter into it. I would be much more comfortable with that statement if you said the physical laws of earth as we expirience it are absolute in this current time setting. Also I don't believe at all that all things in nature cause pre determoned actions in a non religious sense. Think about science and how we can make a chemical reaction using two elements and two other elements In one sense of the sentence it is true that we decided to make that reaction. In the other sense of the sentence us making that reaction happen had nothing to do with nature and the law of physics. A more simple example is if a car gets sideswiped by a truck chances are this was accidential. To apply this to nature. It wasn't predetermined that global warming would effect the earth. Humans caused that. Its all about cause and effect in this statement which can't be concluded as pre determined because there are infinite factors that constantly effect the cause and effect. I meant to say the only way we can be sure that two + two doesn't equal four is if human foundation of mathematics is enevidibly proven wrong. Pollock Posts: 919/1035 (19-Feb-2008 at 09:29) Re: 2 + 2 = 5 Originally Posted by Chillin: Tell me a situation where 2+2 =/= 4 (using a base ten system too, sorry that excuse inst gonna work anymore) I really want to hear this one, thats what I have been asking all along. As I explained The Human Mathematical modell of the world is based upon some assumption one of them being a+a=2*a so in our modell 2+2=4. That doesnt mean there are other possible modells in maths (other bases is one such modell). Just that we have choosen not to use them
 Posts: 246/294 (19-Feb-2008 at 11:04) All math is related to variables. I thought that was proven. What is the problem 2 + 2 = 4 Hmm what are my formula options to prove this sequence is true? Well I could add 1 + 1 assuming that I derived to the conclusion of 2 through 1. Which is logically called a counter and thats why I used programming. I can prove this question right through using a couter but I can prove this question wrong through the absense of that technique. I can disprove that 2 + 2 = 4 using a string. I can prove 2 + 2 = 5 by using variables (E = mc2 for instance) I am not that savy enough to prove 2 + 2 = 5 in a quadratic formula which is exactly how you want it preformed. The real question is who can prove 2 + 2 = 5 with a quadratic formula with just using a quadratic formula. The question chillin is asking you to prove takes an extremely high iq. I think the stipulations that chillin has provided are enough to answer the questions he wants. (btw I don't know if the forumla that he is looking for you to prove is quadratic but I believe calculus or algebra can prove 2 + 2 = 5. Which is also why I used programming because the logic in programming uses calculus and algebra easily) Pollock Posts: 920/1035 (19-Feb-2008 at 15:57) Re: 2 + 2 = 5 Originally Posted by Ninjoo: All math is related to variables. I thought that was proven. What is the problem 2 + 2 = 4 Hmm what are my formula options to prove this sequence is true? Well I could add 1 + 1 assuming that I derived to the conclusion of 2 through 1. Which is logically called a counter and thats why I used programming. I can prove this question right through using a couter but I can prove this question wrong through the absense of that technique. I can disprove that 2 + 2 = 4 using a string. I can prove 2 + 2 = 5 by using variables (E = mc2 for instance) I am not that savy enough to prove 2 + 2 = 5 in a quadratic formula which is exactly how you want it preformed. The real question is who can prove 2 + 2 = 5 with a quadratic formula with just using a quadratic formula. The question chillin is asking you to prove takes an extremely high iq. I think the stipulations that chillin has provided are enough to answer the questions he wants. (btw I don't know if the forumla that he is looking for you to prove is quadratic but I believe calculus or algebra can prove 2 + 2 = 5. Which is also why I used programming because the logic in programming uses calculus and algebra easily) The point your getting at I think is that with 2+2=4 we use one modell of maths based on numbers and in programming we use another type of maths based on variables. Both work however they arent the same, maths and programming isnt the same as they are based upon different things.
 Posts: 2073/2670 (19-Feb-2008 at 23:56) No we dont, using base 10, 2+2 = 4. It always has, it always will. Under any circumstance. 2+2=4 on Earth, Jupiter and on Venus. 2+2 = 4 if your a cat, dog, or monkey. 2+2 = 4 if your in a house, or on a boat. 2+2=4, if your in a vacuum or if your underwater. No one will ever disprove it, end of story. "Hmph, you and your third dimension." "What about it?" "Oh nothing, its cute. We have five." "Th-thousand." "Yes five thousand." "Dont question it." Last edited by Chillin, 20-Feb-2008 at 00:00. Edit reason: Do you like it in a house? Do you like it with a mouse? Thread Tools Show Printable Version Email this Page Display Modes Linear Mode Switch to Hybrid Mode Switch to Threaded Mode 