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Posts: 5359/7006
(10-Jun-2009 at 10:58)


Quote:
It is not ignoring the last two days it is detailing them.
'Detailing' two days of creation away as technically not being creation? I am amazed that you think anyone would be convinced by that...


Quote:
At this point God decided to make heavens from smoke into firmaments, and for an additional 2 days "assigned to each heaven its duty and command" and "adorned the lower heaven with lights, and (provided it) with guard".
Okay... so your squirm is that the heavens were technically finished, but Allah still needed to apply a few finishing touches - tidy up the details and so on.

Explain why you don't apply same logic applies to the earth. It was technically completed in two days, so we should discount the four subsequent days as finishing touches and tidying up details.

Isn't "He set on the (earth), mountains standing firm, high above it, and bestowed blessings on the earth, and measure therein all things to give them nourishment in due proportion" the same as " He assigned to each heaven its duty and command. And We adorned the lower heaven with lights, and (provided it) with guard"?

Allah created heaven and earth in either four days or eight days, depending on whether making mountains and stars is 'technically' part of creation. Both views contradict the six days the Q'ran claims.

Keep trying Gotterdammerung. Keep demonstrating how imperfect the Q'ran is.


Quote:
You have no evidence to support that.

Conversely:
72:1-2. Say: It has been revealed to me that a company of Jinns listened (to the Qur'an). They say, 'We have really heard a wonderful Recital! It gives guidance to the Right, and we have believed therein: We shall not join (in worship) any (gods) with our Lord.
That is really quite pathetic. You are seriously saying that angels and spirits are the intended audience of the Q'ran, proved by a reference in the Q'ran to a handful of Jinns listening to it?

Show me the sales figures of angels and spirits buying copies of the Q'ran. Show me instances of angels and spirits being spotted with copies of the Q'ran in their hands. Then I might take you seriously, but until then the Q'ran was written for humans to read, so 'the other figure is for angels to read' is nonsense.

That idea just doesn't stand up to any rational thought. Look at 32:5.

" He rules (all) affairs from the heavens to the earth: in the end will (all affairs) go up to Him, on a Day, the space whereof will be (as) a thousand years of your reckoning."

All affairs from heaven to earth is everything - including angels - and one Allah day is 1,000 years. Even with you angels get-out, the contradiction is still there.

Also, looking at the context of the 07:04 (as your answers are copy and paste I assume you haven't?) it is clear that the statement is rfering to humans, not angels.

A questioner asked about a Penalty to befall-
The Unbelievers, the which there is none to ward off,-
(A Penalty) from Allah, Lord of the Ways of Ascent.
The angels and the spirit ascend unto him in a Day the measure whereof is (as) fifty thousand years:
Therefore do thou hold Patience,- a Patience of beautiful (contentment).

'Thou' is us. We - not the angels - must be patient because 50,000 years to us is only a day for Allah.


The simple fact that you have to go to these lengths, ignoring days of creation on invented technicalities and alleged changes of subject, confirms that Armitage's claim that the Q;ran is perfect, error free, and easy to understand must be false.

"Patriotism is the last refuge of a scoundrel." But let it be considered that he did not mean a real and generous love of our country, but that pretended patriotism which so many, in all ages and countries, have made a cloak of self- interest.
#41  
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Posts: 563/611
(10-Jun-2009 at 12:26)


My official answer to the #1 supposed contradiction is posted and open for acceptance or rejection of anyone who reads this. This thread is not about convincing you VoR. Its about showing the arguments to the wider audiance of UT. We both are playing on the opposite side of each other. Im trying to argue my views and you yours.

So, instead of attacking Gotterdammerungs or my arguments, you should concentrate your posts on giving sound arguments why the Qur'an is supposed to be contradictory. Once thats done we can move on to the next supposed contradiction, that you can pick out from a list on the website that you so much like


So, comon whats the next supposed contradiction? If you already have posted it i would appreciate if you could repost the next issue.

peace

[Holy Qur'an (Surah Al-Furqan; the Criterion]
Blessed is He who sent down the criterion to His servant, that it may be an admonition to all creatures (25:1)
But the misbelievers say: "Naught is this but a lie which he has forged [...] (25:4)
#42  
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Posts: 5360/7006
(10-Jun-2009 at 13:05)


Quote:
So, instead of attacking Gotterdammerungs or my arguments, you should concentrate your posts on giving sound arguments why the Qur'an is supposed to be contradictory.
Done that already, a whole list of them, and on the very first one you fail. The number of days to create heaven and earth is contradictory, and all we get in response is Gotterdammerung saying two od the days don't count, even though the Q'ran doesn't say that and you posting even more ridiculous nonsense about Allah doing two creations at once, even though the Q'ran clearly lists them seperately!

I have posted contradictions and you can't explain them away, not even the first one. My point is proven.

"Patriotism is the last refuge of a scoundrel." But let it be considered that he did not mean a real and generous love of our country, but that pretended patriotism which so many, in all ages and countries, have made a cloak of self- interest.
#43  
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Posts: 1273/1637
(10-Jun-2009 at 14:12)
Re: Contradictions in the Quran

Originally Posted by Voice of Reason: View Post
Allah created heaven and earth in either four days or eight days, depending on whether making mountains and stars is 'technically' part of creation. Both views contradict the six days the Q'ran claims.
Now you say that creation could have taken four days or eight days, but never 6. This seems to be because you simply do not want to accept that possibility.

In all previous references to creation the timeframe is 6 days and this is well established. Knowing this, why would muhammad say that it was 8 days instead 6 and consciously contradict all previous statements? Of course, no where does it say '8 days', that is a lie produced by your own implying.

Quote:
That is really quite pathetic. You are seriously saying that angels and spirits are the intended audience of the Q'ran, proved by a reference in the Q'ran to a handful of Jinns listening to it?

Show me the sales figures of angels and spirits buying copies of the Q'ran. Show me instances of angels and spirits being spotted with copies of the Q'ran in their hands. Then I might take you seriously, but until then the Q'ran was written for humans to read, so 'the other figure is for angels to read' is nonsense.
The point is that its (the Quran's) influence extends beyond your ability to judge. Therefore you can not stand to doubt it's relevancy.

Quote:
Look at 32:5.

" He rules (all) affairs from the heavens to the earth: in the end will (all affairs) go up to Him, on a Day, the space whereof will be (as) a thousand years of your reckoning."

All affairs from heaven to earth is everything - including angels - and one Allah day is 1,000 years. Even with you angels get-out, the contradiction is still there.
If the passage had continued: '...and all reckoning is as Allah', then you would have been correct.

Also, it says "in the end". Is it the end yet?

At present, the reckoning of time is relative according to your orientation to God.

Even in this known universe, not all places experience time equally.

Quote:
Also, looking at the context of the 07:04 (as your answers are copy and paste I assume you haven't?) it is clear that the statement is rfering to humans, not angels.

A questioner asked about a Penalty to befall-
The Unbelievers, the which there is none to ward off,-
(A Penalty) from Allah, Lord of the Ways of Ascent.
The angels and the spirit ascend unto him in a Day the measure whereof is (as) fifty thousand years:
Therefore do thou hold Patience,- a Patience of beautiful (contentment).

'Thou' is us. We - not the angels - must be patient because 50,000 years to us is only a day for Allah.
70:1. A questioner asked about a Penalty to befall-

70:2. The Unbelievers, the which there is none to ward off,-

70:3. (A Penalty) from Allah, Lord of the Ways of Ascent.

70:4. The angels and the spirit ascend unto him in a Day the measure whereof is (as) fifty thousand years:

70:5. Therefore do thou hold Patience,- a Patience of beautiful (contentment).
This passage is about paitence. For the angels and spirits, the ascend to Allah is very long "fify thousand years", but it is beautiful. The 'questioner' he should learn to appreciate patience in this way, by example of the relatively long time that angels and spirits experience it.

Last edited by Gotterdammerung, 10-Jun-2009 at 14:18.
#44  
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Posts: 564/611
(10-Jun-2009 at 14:44)


Re: Contradictions in the Quran

Originally Posted by Voice of Reason: View Post
Done that already, a whole list of them, and on the very first one you fail. The number of days to create heaven and earth is contradictory, and all we get in response is Gotterdammerung saying two od the days don't count, even though the Q'ran doesn't say that and you posting even more ridiculous nonsense about Allah doing two creations at once, even though the Q'ran clearly lists them seperately!

I have posted contradictions and you can't explain them away, not even the first one. My point is proven.
lol what ever my friend. My official post stands as an sound explanation for the verses) and you can deny that all you want. But its only what you desire and your might is limited to your own conciousness. Other people have minds of their own and they will decide for themselves who had a more meaningful explanation to give.

So lets move on to the next supposed contradition #2 that is:
Originally Posted by VoR:
It [Qur'an] contradicts itself on Allah's days. 22:7 says a thousand years but 70:4 says 50,000 years.
Ok, ill go over these verses and, God Willing, ponder on them and then post whatever conclusion i came to just as i did with the first supposed contradiction.

peace

[Holy Qur'an (Surah Al-Furqan; the Criterion]
Blessed is He who sent down the criterion to His servant, that it may be an admonition to all creatures (25:1)
But the misbelievers say: "Naught is this but a lie which he has forged [...] (25:4)
#45  
View Public Profile Find more posts by Armitage Add Armitage to your Buddy List Reply with Quote
Posts: 5361/7006
(10-Jun-2009 at 14:47)


Quote:
Now you say that creation could have taken four days or eight days, but never 6. This seems to be because you simply do not want to accept that possibility.
You are avoiding the point. If creating stars etc. is, as you are saying, 'technically' not part of creating the heavens, just a detail, then how can you deny that creating mountains is 'technically' not part of creating the earth?

Your reasoning makes no sense: either the mountains and the stars are an essential part of creation as the Q'ran says and it took eight days, or they are not and it took four days.


Quote:
Knowing this, why would muhammad say that it was 8 days instead 6 and consciously contradict all previous statements?
Maybe that is because the the Q'ran is *not* perfect and free from errors or contradictions?


Quote:
If the passage had continued: '...and all reckoning is as Allah', then you would have been correct.
You are dodging the point again. "(all) affairs from the heavens to the earth" includes angels and spirits and Jinns and everything else, so the 1 day = 1,000 years includes the angels.


Quote:
For the angels and spirits, the ascend to Allah is very long "fify thousand years", but it is beautiful. The 'questioner' he should learn to appreciate patience in this way, by example of the relatively long time that angels and spirits experience it.
That doesn't even make sense! "YOU have to patient because it takes ANGELS a long time to get to heaven"? The two things don't connect.
On the other hand, if it takes angels and the spirits of humans 50,000 years so they have to be patient... *that* makes sense.

You are inventing things the Q'ran doesn't say in your attempt to deny an obvious contradiction. If they had wanted to say "1 Allah day = 50,000 Angel-years" (and there is no rational reason to say it) it would say that. But it doesn't. The speaker is addressing humans, speaking about humans, urging humans to be patient, the day is a human concept, years are a human concept, and angel-years don't have any relevance to what is being said. You are grasping at straws.

"Patriotism is the last refuge of a scoundrel." But let it be considered that he did not mean a real and generous love of our country, but that pretended patriotism which so many, in all ages and countries, have made a cloak of self- interest.
#46  
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Posts: 1274/1637
(10-Jun-2009 at 15:21)
Re: Contradictions in the Quran

Originally Posted by Voice of Reason: View Post
You are avoiding the point. If creating stars etc. is, as you are saying, 'technically' not part of creating the heavens, just a detail, then how can you deny that creating mountains is 'technically' not part of creating the earth?

Your reasoning makes no sense: either the mountains and the stars are an essential part of creation as the Q'ran says and it took eight days, or they are not and it took four days.
The earth and heavens were not 'joined' until 6 days.

Quote:
Maybe that is because the the Q'ran is *not* perfect and free from errors or contradictions?
So you are implying that Muhammad deliberately contridicted himself?

Quote:
You are dodging the point again. "(all) affairs from the heavens to the earth" includes angels and spirits and Jinns and everything else, so the 1 day = 1,000 years includes the angels.
Let us break it down, shall we?

"He rules (all) affairs from the heavens to the earth:"

"in the end will (all affairs) go up to Him,"

"on a Day, the space whereof will be (as) a thousand years of your reckoning."

It is very specific. In the end there will be a Day when all affairs will go upto God, which at this time will seem to take place over 1,000 years.

There's no rule here which says 1 Day is 1,000 years forever and for everyone. Only at this specifc time, for us.

Quote:
That doesn't even make sense! "YOU have to patient because it takes ANGELS a long time to get to heaven"?
Exactly, so don't consider it so hard that you have to wait a significantly less time, consider it beautiful.

Quote:
You are inventing things the Q'ran doesn't say in your attempt to deny an obvious contradiction. If they had wanted to say "1 Allah day = 50,000 Angel-years" (and there is no rational reason to say it) it would say that. But it doesn't. The speaker is addressing humans, speaking about humans, urging humans to be patient, the day is a human concept, years are a human concept, and angel-years don't have any relevance to what is being said. You are grasping at straws.
Again, you assume all this on what basis?
#47  
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Posts: 5362/7006
(10-Jun-2009 at 15:44)


Quote:
The earth and heavens were not 'joined' until 6 days.
Yep, and then - according to the Q'ran, Allah took another two days to finish the heavens making 8 days in total and contradicting the statement that heaven and earth were created in 6 days.


Quote:
So you are implying that Muhammad deliberately contridicted himself?
No... I am saying that neither he nor the Q'ran is perfect and he accidentally contradicted himself. To err is human.


Quote:
There's no rule here which says 1 Day is 1,000 years forever and for everyone. Only at this specifc time, for us.
So now your defence is that Allah's days vary - sometimes they are 1,000 years and sometimes they are 50,000 years? Odd that it doesn't say that anywhere in the Q'ran. As I said, you are making stuff up.

IF your idea that two days of creation don't count even though the Q'ran lists them in the creation story, or Armitage's nonsense about the jobs overlapping although they are listed as separate in the Q'ran, or your notion that Q'ran-time is flexible although it doesn't say that in the Q'ran *are* true, then all you have proven is that Allah got his words muddled or Mohammed wrote them down wrong.

Either way, the Q'ran is still not the perfect word of Allah.


Quote:
Again, you assume all this on what basis?
Logic. Common sense. Rational thought. The absence of anything saying 'to humans it is a 1,000 years but to angels it is 50,000 years. And the way you argument gas changed from angel-years to flexi-years.


Why are you even arguing this, Gotterdammerung? It was Armitage that claimed the Q'ran was perfect and had no contradictions; Armitage that threw down the challenge to find any; and Armitage that boasted that he could explain them all away. Where is he now that his challenge has been taken up? Sat there like a pompous ass refusing to discuss any contradictions while *you* defend *his* position!

Take some advice: let Armitage make a fool of himself on his own. You gain nothing by getting involved; you just get yourself tarred with the same brush.

"Patriotism is the last refuge of a scoundrel." But let it be considered that he did not mean a real and generous love of our country, but that pretended patriotism which so many, in all ages and countries, have made a cloak of self- interest.
#48  
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Posts: 565/611
(10-Jun-2009 at 15:59)


Whats up with these two last paragraphes VoR? Chill a bit. As i said, im working on the second supposed contradiction leave my brother in faith Gotterdammerung in peace will you? Have patience, my response will surely come.

peace

[Holy Qur'an (Surah Al-Furqan; the Criterion]
Blessed is He who sent down the criterion to His servant, that it may be an admonition to all creatures (25:1)
But the misbelievers say: "Naught is this but a lie which he has forged [...] (25:4)
#49  
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Posts: 5363/7006
(11-Jun-2009 at 02:57)


Re: Contradictions in the Quran

Originally Posted by Armitage: View Post
Whats up with these two last paragraphes VoR? Chill a bit. As i said, im working on the second supposed contradiction leave my brother in faith Gotterdammerung in peace will you? Have patience, my response will surely come.

peace
Exactly. You haven't explained the *first* one yet, but you refuse to discuss it. The obvious reason for that is that you have no sensible answer so you want to avoid any engagement with the issue.

Your 'official' response that heaven was made at the same time as mountains is complete nonsense - the Q'ran doesn't say that. The Q'ran list two days to create earth, four days adding mountains, and a further two days to put stars in heavens. It does *not* say two days to create the earth, then four days to make mountains and stars: your to explain the contradiction itself contradicts the Q'ran! You are implying that either Allah or Mohammed got the words wrong.

Gotterdammerungs explanation the the two days creating the heavens are not really creation doen't make sense either. The Q'ran lists them as such. If they were not part of creation they wouldn't be listed as such.

You have fallen at the first hurdle Armitage. We don't need to look at the four substances the Q'ran says man is made of, or the contradiction of wine being an abomination but also supplied to the righteous as a reward.

The Q'ran *does* have contradictions, and you can't explain them away. Your claim is shown to be false.

"Patriotism is the last refuge of a scoundrel." But let it be considered that he did not mean a real and generous love of our country, but that pretended patriotism which so many, in all ages and countries, have made a cloak of self- interest.
#50  
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Posts: 1275/1637
(11-Jun-2009 at 04:14)
Re: Contradictions in the Quran

I feel that I have expressed my point clearly. You have your deductions and I have mine. I will make one final responce and then I will leave it. Perhaps you feel that by yelling "contradiction!" enough times then that will make it so, but I will not waste much more energy on a screaming contest.

Originally Posted by Voice of Reason: View Post
Yep, and then - according to the Q'ran, Allah took another two days to finish the heavens making 8 days in total and contradicting the statement that heaven and earth were created in 6 days.

No... I am saying that neither he nor the Q'ran is perfect and he accidentally contradicted himself. To err is human.
And I believe that Muhammad was well aware that creation was in 6 days.

Quote:
So now your defence is that Allah's days vary - sometimes they are 1,000 years and sometimes they are 50,000 years? Odd that it doesn't say that anywhere in the Q'ran. As I said, you are making stuff up.
Firstly, Allah can do whatever He wants.

Secondly, I said that your perception of time may vary depending on what being you are and where you are and/or what you are doing.

Quote:
IF your idea that two days of creation don't count even though the Q'ran lists them in the creation story, or Armitage's nonsense about the jobs overlapping although they are listed as separate in the Q'ran, or your notion that Q'ran-time is flexible although it doesn't say that in the Q'ran *are* true, then all you have proven is that Allah got his words muddled or Mohammed wrote them down wrong.
I proved nothing, because I believe humans must have faith. And neither have you 'proved', because it is not in your ability to, but only point fingers very wildly.

Quote:
Logic. Common sense. Rational thought. The absence of anything saying 'to humans it is a 1,000 years but to angels it is 50,000 years. And the way you argument gas changed from angel-years to flexi-years.
All you can say about the Quran is that is was written for, but not limited to, human beings. That is all you can really say. And no, I didn't change my 'argument gas', only you misinterpreted my point that time was relative.

Thanks, VoR. But I am retreating. I know better than to be victim to your tactics of attrition.
#51  
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(11-Jun-2009 at 05:32)


Quote:
And I believe that Muhammad was well aware that creation was in 6 days.
Yet, when he gave details of creation, he still had two days + four days + two days = eight days. It is there Gotterdammerung, in the Q'ran, for all too see. You cannot say it is wrong. The contradiction exists, and there is no rational way to explain it away.


Quote:
Firstly, Allah can do whatever He wants.
Quote:
And neither have you 'proved', because it is not in your ability to, but only point fingers very wildly.
So now you have fallen to the level of "it can't be a contradiction because Allah said it and everything Allah says is right"....


Quote:
Secondly, I said that your perception of time may vary depending on what being you are and where you are and/or what you are doing.
Yes, *you* said that, but the *Q'ran* doesn't. The Q'ran says 1000 years which is specific - nothing to do with perception, or 50,000 years which is also specific - nothing to do with perception - and contradicts the 1,000 years.


Quote:
And neither have you 'proved', because it is not in your ability to, but only point fingers very wildly.
I can spot a contradiction. It is not that difficult. Well within my abilities, as I am unburdened by blind adherence to a dogma that the Q'ran *must* be perfect.

"Patriotism is the last refuge of a scoundrel." But let it be considered that he did not mean a real and generous love of our country, but that pretended patriotism which so many, in all ages and countries, have made a cloak of self- interest.
#52  
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(17-Jun-2009 at 20:08)


Quote:
If God is perfect then why wouldn't he have just given the correct information first, in a way that was progressive and effective? Then the perfection of his Word would have been evident.

Of course, if that statement is true then it disproves God in itself. If God had to 'override' himself then it means he made a mistake.
What if God decided to let humanity take its course and decided not to interfere. After all human history did not start with 2000 years ago, and before that there was no mention of 1 God. People were living in what was a spiritual world, there were Greek gods, roman gods and countless others. Does it not make sense that maybe Angels or Spirits or even demons were given certain powers and limits by the Creator/Allah. As to why He would care about humanity is beyond me. The Universe/Galaxy is limitless in its size and their might be many others, it does not make sense that humans and animals were created just for personal worship, that seems pointless then to give humans free will and other animals nothing.

Maybe somehow an Angel or Demon (spirits) before interfered with human affairs and broke the Celestial/Heavenly laws and thus the word Fallen came into play. There is this lonely planet earth and then the rest of the universe, when someone dies then they are accepted into heaven, and Allah or God(they could be 2 different entities) God with Jesus and diff orders of angels have to protect the children or innocent.

Does it not make sense that maybe Judaism was somehow created by a sinister force Angels/Demons wanting/thinking they can seperate from the natural order of things. Its funny to me Moses finds 10 commandments and then rushed to tell his people. I think its highly possible he or a group of ppl with help from the spirit world orchestrated the whole thing. It doesnt matter, soon after Jesus came down to correct things. His message was decent, but again it was corrupted, and its proponents start to preach worship etc... Again arachangel Gabriel is mentioned and other angels, and so on the word Fallen Angels is mentioned.

Eventually, the highest order, the Creator/Allah has to interfere otherwise whats the point, human beings have free will but they are slaves b/c they worship a god or spirits that are not greater than humans only operate in a diff way. It doesnt matter, Islam comes down and its the final religion. The most important thing is Islam is more of a way of life, but it also explains things in a subtle way.

Eventually, when you look at it, you will realize Allah is the Creator but also he controls Time. If stupid human beings are trying to invent a time machine and disrupt the laws of physics and nature (creating life), then it makes sense all these instances of Deja Vu and whatever other spiritual experiences ppl have are just b/c everyone is moving at their own level of conciousness. I wouldnt be surprised if somehow this century is being repeated as i dont see any way humanity makes it to 2100 w/o destroying itself.

Death Before Dishonour

When the righteous lose this battle, it is because they, in a wrongful society, exist as individuals whereas the materialists gang up. The Quran suggests the righteous get together and form an alliance against the wrongdoers.
#53  
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(18-Jun-2009 at 08:46)


Quote:
Does it not make sense that maybe Angels or Spirits or even demons were given certain powers and limits by the Creator/Allah.
Quote:
Does it not make sense that maybe Judaism was somehow created by a sinister force Angels/Demons wanting/thinking they can seperate from the natural order of things.
Quote:
Eventually, when you look at it, you will realize Allah is the Creator but also he controls Time.
None of those make sense, nor will anybody with an open mind realise anything, because they all assume that Allah, angels and demons exist. Since that is unproven and has no evidence at all to support it, it makes about as much sense as realising that Invisible Martian Ninjas control time.

"Patriotism is the last refuge of a scoundrel." But let it be considered that he did not mean a real and generous love of our country, but that pretended patriotism which so many, in all ages and countries, have made a cloak of self- interest.
#54  
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Posts: 262/284
(18-Jun-2009 at 20:33)


Re: Contradictions in the Quran

Originally Posted by Libra SPYdrZ: View Post
What if God decided to let humanity take its course and decided not to interfere. After all human history did not start with 2000 years ago, and before that there was no mention of 1 God. People were living in what was a spiritual world, there were Greek gods, roman gods and countless others. Does it not make sense that maybe Angels or Spirits or even demons were given certain powers and limits by the Creator/Allah. As to why He would care about humanity is beyond me. The Universe/Galaxy is limitless in its size and their might be many others, it does not make sense that humans and animals were created just for personal worship, that seems pointless then to give humans free will and other animals nothing.

Maybe somehow an Angel or Demon (spirits) before interfered with human affairs and broke the Celestial/Heavenly laws and thus the word Fallen came into play. There is this lonely planet earth and then the rest of the universe, when someone dies then they are accepted into heaven, and Allah or God(they could be 2 different entities) God with Jesus and diff orders of angels have to protect the children or innocent.

Does it not make sense that maybe Judaism was somehow created by a sinister force Angels/Demons wanting/thinking they can seperate from the natural order of things. Its funny to me Moses finds 10 commandments and then rushed to tell his people. I think its highly possible he or a group of ppl with help from the spirit world orchestrated the whole thing. It doesnt matter, soon after Jesus came down to correct things. His message was decent, but again it was corrupted, and its proponents start to preach worship etc... Again arachangel Gabriel is mentioned and other angels, and so on the word Fallen Angels is mentioned.

Eventually, the highest order, the Creator/Allah has to interfere otherwise whats the point, human beings have free will but they are slaves b/c they worship a god or spirits that are not greater than humans only operate in a diff way. It doesnt matter, Islam comes down and its the final religion. The most important thing is Islam is more of a way of life, but it also explains things in a subtle way.

Eventually, when you look at it, you will realize Allah is the Creator but also he controls Time. If stupid human beings are trying to invent a time machine and disrupt the laws of physics and nature (creating life), then it makes sense all these instances of Deja Vu and whatever other spiritual experiences ppl have are just b/c everyone is moving at their own level of conciousness. I wouldnt be surprised if somehow this century is being repeated as i dont see any way humanity makes it to 2100 w/o destroying itself.
Ok let me correct you on this. Judaism existed before Islam. Abraham was the father of the 3 major religions of today, Christianity, Judaism, and Islam. Taking this into account, I could say that Islam got it wrong, since Ishmael and his mother were cast out into the desert. Ishmael probably felt detached from God, and that left him open to corruption. Maybe that's what happened. If you are going to say that spirits and/or demons interfered with humans, you have to include those in Islam as well, since last time I checked, they are human as well.

So let's go back to my theory that the Q'uran, Torah, and Bible are indeed the words of God, but interpreted through the thoughts and minds of humans (imperfect things, they are). Since different people interpret things differently, passages are written differently, and are interpreted differently, thus resulting in either a redundancy, or contradiction.

Refusal to comprimise only succeeds in driving the devil's bargain. However, when one comprimises one's morals, they become the devil's bargain.
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(19-Jun-2009 at 03:55)


Quote:
So let's go back to my theory that the Q'uran, Torah, and Bible are indeed the words of God, but interpreted through the thoughts and minds of humans (imperfect things, they are). Since different people interpret things differently, passages are written differently, and are interpreted differently, thus resulting in either a redundancy, or contradiction.
They are not even that. They are purely the words of humans who position themselves as self-declared 'chosen ones' speaking for God. As we have no way of verifying this, because the creator of the universe seems to be incapable of speaking to more than one person at once, saying they are the word of God has no logical basis at all.

"Patriotism is the last refuge of a scoundrel." But let it be considered that he did not mean a real and generous love of our country, but that pretended patriotism which so many, in all ages and countries, have made a cloak of self- interest.
#56  
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(19-Jun-2009 at 08:29)


Re: Contradictions in the Quran

Originally Posted by Voice of Reason: View Post
They are not even that. They are purely the words of humans who position themselves as self-declared 'chosen ones' speaking for God. As we have no way of verifying this, because the creator of the universe seems to be incapable of speaking to more than one person at once, saying they are the word of God has no logical basis at all.
I only know of one book that is purported to have been written DIRECTLY by the hand of the person who either is or is not, but is believed to one of these "Chosen speaking for God" that you mention-whether real or pretenders is irrelevant . All the other books were written afterward by followers.
*In case you want to know which book it's this one
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kitab-i-Aqdas *

"I KEEK A TOUCHDOWN!" - Garo Yepremian
#57  
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(Post has been warned)
(19-Jun-2009 at 13:54)
Armitage is actually correct in claiming one has to read the entire Quran in the language it was written in order to understand the true meaning, at least according to Muslims. It is not a bad idea to read it in its original language, hell look at all of the different versions of the Bible. A good example is the 5th commandment - many people will tell you it is "thou shall not kill", and they would be WRONG!

It is actually "thou shall not murder" or "thou shall not kill without just cause", or it is okay to kill as long as you have justification. And one can justify just about anything!

VoR, it is funny you are whining about people not responding to your entire post, because I've whined about the same thing you do to my posts. You chop em up and only respond to what you want to respond to, instead of commenting on the entire message. Additionally, you are being surprisingly American in many of your posts in this thread, hell you sound like me. Unfortunately you get it WRONG! even when you do try to be like me.

Intoxicants does not necessarily mean alcohol.

Muhammed was stating if there are contradictions in the Quran, it was because he wrote it down WRONG! and the entire message of the Quran should not be tossed out over a few human errors. This is why Armitage was pleading you read the entire Quran before you comment on it, he just is a dumbass and doesn't know how to communicate this message.

Oh, and Islam would be the 2nd fastest growing religion in the world. Just an FYI because all of you here are lazy and don't bother to read anything more then a fraud of a website claiming descrepencies in the Quran and Wikipedia (HAHAHAHAHAHAHA).

Muhammed was an opportunist who made up some of it along the way, I'll give you that. I bet the house not even Armitage knows why Ramadan was created, its quite the humourous story too.

Muhammed was actually pretty progressive for his time, giving equal rights to women, attempting to advance business and commerce, and sparked the Islamic golden age which came up with some pretty cool inventions and lines of thinking, including your super hippy peace-at-all-cost line of thinking VoR.

You all need to read more, and stop acting on incorrect and/or incomplete information. It is getting sad/annoying.

___________________________

The extreme left, the extreme right. The same in every respect, except for the song they sing.
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(20-Jun-2009 at 07:36)


Quote:
Armitage is actually correct in claiming one has to read the entire Quran in the language it was written in order to understand the true meaning, at least according to Muslims.
Look at the title of the thread - it is about contradictions in the Q'ran. This is because Armitage, in another thread, stated that Islam is the only true religion because the Q'ran is the only holy book that is perfect and free of contradictions, and challenged the forum to find some.

This thread is the response to that, the contradictions are here, and Armitage has vanished.


Quote:
A good example is the 5th commandment - many people will tell you it is "thou shall not kill", and they would be WRONG!
You are WRONG, because the 5th commandment is to honour your father and mother.

You are WRONG on another point too. "Thou shalt not kill" is from the King James, the Revised, or the American Standard. Most versions list is as 'murder' - you are way behind the game with your little gem of knowledge.


Quote:
It is actually "thou shall not murder" or "thou shall not kill without just cause", or it is okay to kill as long as you have justification. And one can justify just about anything!
The original Hebrew word was 'ratsach', which to kill a human being. This idea includes murder but is not limited to it. The translation issue is that English words with similar meanings such as kill or slay can apply to animals, but the Hebrew word doesn't. On the other hand 'murder', which like 'ratsach' applies only to humans, implies premeditation which is not is not present in 'ratsach'.

It is not 'actually' murder or kill without justification. It 'actually' has no English equivalent at all.


Quote:
VoR, it is funny you are whining about people not responding to your entire post
Learn to read. I was commenting on the use of generalisations to avoid addressing specific points.


Quote:
Intoxicants does not necessarily mean alcohol.
So what? Intoxicants includes alcohol, and specifically red wine. Saying in one place that it is an abomination and in another that it is a reward is a contradiction.


Quote:
Muhammed was stating if there are contradictions in the Quran, it was because he wrote it down WRONG! and the entire message of the Quran should not be tossed out over a few human errors.
Where did anybody say it should?


Quote:
This is why Armitage was pleading you read the entire Quran before you comment on it, he just is a dumbass and doesn't know how to communicate this message.
Armitage was squirming to avoid having to address the contradictions that he said don't exist. His position is that the Q'ran *doesn't* have human errors in it, because it is the pure word of Allah and Allah doesn't make mistakes.

It is a good idea to read a thread and find out what it is about before commenting in it.


Quote:
Oh, and Islam would be the 2nd fastest growing religion in the world. Just an FYI because all of you here are lazy and don't bother to read anything more then a fraud of a website claiming descrepencies in the Quran and Wikipedia (HAHAHAHAHAHAHA).
We should believe that just because you say so? Curb the ego Bryan, nobody is going to believe you. Produce some sources and we might take you seriously.

Islam is the fastes growing religion according to this source.


Quote:
You all need to read more, and stop acting on incorrect and/or incomplete information. It is getting sad/annoying.
Like not knowing that 'thou shalt not kill' is the 6th commandment you mean?

10 Commandments
  1. I am the Lord thy God, ... Thou shalt have no other gods before me.
  2. Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven images.
  3. Thou shalt not take the name of the Lord thy God in vain.
  4. Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.
  5. Honor thy father and thy mother: that thy days may be long.
  6. Thou shalt not kill.
  7. Thou shalt not commit adultery.
  8. Thou shalt not steal.
  9. Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbor.
  10. Thou shalt not covet thy neighbor's house.

"Patriotism is the last refuge of a scoundrel." But let it be considered that he did not mean a real and generous love of our country, but that pretended patriotism which so many, in all ages and countries, have made a cloak of self- interest.
#59  
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(20-Jun-2009 at 16:19)
Quote:
Look at the title of the thread - it is about contradictions in the Q'ran. This is because Armitage, in another thread, stated that Islam is the only true religion because the Q'ran is the only holy book that is perfect and free of contradictions, and challenged the forum to find some.

This thread is the response to that, the contradictions are here, and Armitage has vanished.
In which case you are correct. There are different areas in the Quran which do seem to contradict themselves, but what I am saying the contradictions cannot be confirmed until you read the Quran in its original language and in its entirety to ensure there was no mistranslations of the text.

Quote:
You are WRONG, because the 5th commandment is to honour your father and mother.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/10_commandments - scroll down a little ways, and you will find what number each commandment is. We are both WRONG! and both RIGHT! on this little debate - although you should have researched more to realize the 5th can be "Thou Shall Not Murder". But I'll give you that one.

Quote:
So what? Intoxicants includes alcohol, and specifically red wine. Saying in one place that it is an abomination and in another that it is a reward is a contradiction.
And thus we reach exactly my problem with you VoR. Just because Mohommed says "intoxicants" doesn't necessarily mean he meant red wine. In fact, from his statement saying drinking wine was a good thing, you can easily infer Mohommed did not believe wine was an intoxicant.

Just because you believe it is an intoxicant, as well as many people nowadays who would probably agree with you (including doctors), it does not necessarily mean in the 600s they believed the same thing.

Mohommed was attempting to say intoxicants are bad, but clarified he did not believe wine was an intoxicant. I am not sure of this, and neither are you, because neither of us have talked to the man, but based on the information provided to me, I am not convinced this is a contradiction. This type of thinking and reasoning is what you have to do, VoR, in order for me to stop being such a dickhead to you.

I believe a lot of what you are saying VoR, you are just saying it completely wrong and justifying it horrifically.

Quote:
Islam is the fastest growing religion according to this source.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fastest_Growing_Religion

To be honest it is actually quite difficult to determine the "fastest", as new religions grow at very high rates. Out of the major religions, you could be correct VoR, although my source says Islam is number 2.

I don't have access to the ppt which stated Islam is number 2, so I can't prove it, but you can clearly see descrepencies may exist in any study on the "fastest" growing.

Quote:
The original Hebrew word was 'ratsach', which to kill a human being. This idea includes murder but is not limited to it. The translation issue is that English words with similar meanings such as kill or slay can apply to animals, but the Hebrew word doesn't. On the other hand 'murder', which like 'ratsach' applies only to humans, implies premeditation which is not is not present in 'ratsach'.

It is not 'actually' murder or kill without justification. It 'actually' has no English equivalent at all.
You more or less just proved my point. If the "actually" has not English equivalent, then the real meaning was lost in translation. We can rebuild what was lost in translation by examining what God told Moses to do next.

Which is go take the promised land. The problem is, there were people living in the promised land already. Kinda hard to take the "promised land" without killing. And the battle for Jericho was not fought with flowers, a shouting match, and a good football game.

Throughout the Bible, God seems to justify killing. Therefor, it is unlikely the 5th means killing is unauthorized no matter what, but rather, no killing unless you have a good reason to do so.

I darkly commented one can justify just about anything as a criticism on the fact religion can be interpreted to say anything it wants. Which is the whole point of my centrism argument in my other thread.

In order to not be manipulated, one has to be informed, too look at the raw data for yourself.

I don't like killing, I don't like violence. But I understand its purpose, and its benefits. I would much rather be in a labratory coming up with the next invention to advance the human race rather then spending 15 months in a place ravaged by the horrors of religion. The whole "killing, violence, and destruction" thing is just a byproduct of what happens when humans don't do their homework, don't get educated and knowledgeable, and allow themselves to be manipulated by individuals using a book called "Bible" or "Quran".

___________________________

The extreme left, the extreme right. The same in every respect, except for the song they sing.
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