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Posts: 3371/3642
(17-Sep-2011 at 19:17)


Re: Is god against homophobes

Originally Posted by Voice of Reason: View Post
The majority don't want it. That looks like a very good reason to me. Why should the majority bow down to unreasoned demands, based on lies, from an activist minority?
Not too long ago the majority would have felt that people who didn't believe in God were subhuman and that the right to not believe in God was an unreasonable demand. The interest of the majority should never take priority over what is fair.

Quote:
Yes it does. It specifically states "Men and women of full age, without any limitation due to race, nationality or religion, have the right to marry and to found a family."

As there is no third gender using basic Pragmatics, specifically the Gricean Maxims and Sperber and Wilsons Relevance Theory, then the only reading that makes any sense is men marrying women. If you really want to insist that the people who wrote that sentence where only semi-literate and not really rational at the time of writing, that "... to found a family." on the end should make it pretty obvious.

I think you actually know I am right, but just can't bring yourself to admit it.
One could read it as "Men, have the right to marry and to found a family" and "Women, have the right to marry and found a family." There is nothing that says "only opposite sexes." I don't think they were semi-literate, I believe they just didn't consider same sex marriage, including the banning of it, in the UDHR. You can have a family via adoption; it also doesn't say to have a family you need to marry or vice versa.


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One reason I have already given - the majority don't want it. A second is that it is not solving any problem.
I don't care about the first argument and I disagree with the second. I believe this civil union thing is a compromise that leaves neither side happy. Republican asshats still think they have a right to prevent homosexuals from living the way that makes them happy and the "activists" (most homosexuals though, even the ones who don't march in pride parades, I believe) feel that the civil union crap considers them as less than equal. Really, how many people (excluding straight people that don't care what anyone does behind closed doors if it is consensual) are out there thinking "now that homosexuals can practically marry, but don't demoralize the common use of the word marriage in the majority of the world; I'm happy."

If all else fails, call someone a troll.
that can be fixed... / Ζ

Last edited by Greeney, 17-Sep-2011 at 19:19.
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(18-Sep-2011 at 02:11)


I like the way you're saying "Same Sex Marriage" as if, somehow, it means something different to the individuals involved.

When two people want to commit to each other for life... why does their gender cause any difference?

Maybe god agrees.

People, like snowflakes, are all slightly different, but we all follow the same patterns -Stewie
Believe those who are seeking the truth; doubt those who find it.

Some people are like Slinkies- absolutely useless, but always fun to push down stairs!
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(18-Sep-2011 at 04:47)
Re: Is god against homophobes

Originally Posted by Voice of Reason: View Post
The activists are putting forward a nonsensical argument...
Your are nonsensical:

VoR: BLAH BLAH BLAH... this is fact.

Other person: Not really, because...

VoR: (ignore) It's fact... FACT FACT FACT
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(18-Sep-2011 at 05:05)
Re: Is god against homophobes

Originally Posted by Azure Dragon: View Post
I like the way you're saying "Same Sex Marriage" as if, somehow, it means something different to the individuals involved.

When two people want to commit to each other for life... why does their gender cause any difference?

Maybe god agrees.
Yes, thankyou, back on topic.

On the large scale, homosexuality is a luxury. If we were all gay, humanity would die out. This is not to say that homosexuality is bad, but that it is not recommended for the majority.

In this regard, it is impossible for God to say, "yes, go forth and practice homosexuality freely", but at the same time, in times where homosexuality has been punished in scripture, it has only been when it has practiced on a large scale.

In general, homosexuality is put in a negative light, because scripture is meant to represent an example for everyone to follow. But homosexuality has and will always be practiced, so it's important to read between the lines.

So here's the verdict: God is not against homophobia, because it does have it's uses, as it can put balance back into societies that are threatened by large-scale homophobia. This is also to say that homosexuality will never be allowed to be practiced by the mainstream. I'm sorry to admit it, but it's necessary attitude for the future generations of society. On the other hand, God is not against gays, only large-scale homosexuality.

Last edited by Gotterdammerung, 18-Sep-2011 at 05:07.
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(18-Sep-2011 at 07:17)


Originally Posted by Greeney:
The interest of the majority should never take priority over what is fair.
Fair is subjective. I don't think there is anything fair about an activist minority demanding that a majority accept their views but you seem to think it is okay.

I suspect that you are referring, in an oblique way, to tyranny by the majority. I agree the majority should not be allowed to oppress a minority, but there is no tyranny involved here. There are no rights being violated. There is no inequality as civil unions take care of that. There is no oppression. There is a bunch of activist squabbling over a label - "Waah! Waah! We want everybody to call it marriage!"


Quote:
One could read it as "Men, have the right to marry and to found a family" and "Women, have the right to marry and found a family."
One could read it as many things, such as allowing men to marry a goat and adopt a donkey, which is why Pragmatics exists and a whole bunch of people worked out why one of those many possible readings should be preferred.

Your reading doesn't work for several reasons: it would require a semi-literate writer, otherwise they would have written it the same way you did. It would require a sentence with conflicting ideas, as founding a family and men marrying men contradict. It would require irrelevant information, as "men and woman" actually means 'all', so "men and women" is only relevant if they marry each other.

In contrast, reading that men and women have a right to marry each other to have children makes a lot of sense, doesn't require an assumption of multiple errors by the writer, and does make a complete sentence in which all the ideas align.


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There is nothing that says "only opposite sexes."
It doesn't need to. It says "men and women", which are opposite sexes.


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You can have a family via adoption
"... to *found* a family"


Quote:
it also doesn't say to have a family you need to marry or vice versa.
"Men and women of full age [...] have the right to marry and to found a family."


Quote:
I believe this civil union thing is a compromise that leaves neither side happy.
Believe this based on what? A lot of noise doesn't mean a lot of people. On the basis that the majority vote is in favour of civil unions and against same-sex marriage, it appears to be a compromise which most people are happy to accept.


Quote:
the "activists" feel that the civil union crap considers them as less than equal.
Then perhaps they should stop going around telling each other it is less than equal?

Essentially this is a case of "civil union is not equal, *because we say so*"


Quote:
Really, how many people (excluding straight people that don't care what anyone does behind closed doors if it is consensual) are out there thinking "now that homosexuals can practically marry, but don't demoralize the common use of the word marriage in the majority of the world; I'm happy."
Most, I would have said, based on that being pretty much the view taken by everybody I know.


Originally Posted by Azure Dragon:
When two people want to commit to each other for life... why does their gender cause any difference?
It doesn't, which is why civil unions exist to allow same-sex couples to commit to each other for life. What is the problem with that?


Originally Posted by Gottadammerung:
God is not against gays, only large-scale homosexuality.
Here you are, telling us that your imaginary friend has self-contradicting views, and you say I am nonsensical?!

"Patriotism is the last refuge of a scoundrel." But let it be considered that he did not mean a real and generous love of our country, but that pretended patriotism which so many, in all ages and countries, have made a cloak of self- interest.
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(18-Sep-2011 at 08:09)
Re: Is god against homophobes

Originally Posted by Voice of Reason: View Post
Here you are, telling us that your imaginary friend
It's a little thing called staying on topic. Unlike you, I'm framing my responce relevantly.

Quote:
has self-contradicting views,
That there is a difference between small and large scale homosexuality in how it affects society, is not contradictory.

Rather it is simple demographics.

Last edited by Gotterdammerung, 18-Sep-2011 at 08:10.
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(18-Sep-2011 at 12:44)


Re: Is god against homophobes

Originally Posted by Gotterdammerung: View Post

That there is a difference between small and large scale homosexuality in how it affects society, is not contradictory.

Rather it is simple demographics.

Well with animals it does. With humans no so much because we are no led by instinct but by rational thought(well some of us) even large scale wouldn't affect us much as long as people are still willing to have children

The very powerful and the very stupid have one thing in common; they don't alter their views to fit the facts, they alter the facts to fit the views
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(18-Sep-2011 at 14:52)
Re: Is god against homophobes

Originally Posted by DHoffryn: View Post
Well with animals it does. With humans no so much because we are no led by instinct but by rational thought(well some of us) even large scale wouldn't affect us much as long as people are still willing to have children
O.K. then.

What percentage of gay people have sex for reproduction?

Given a gay majority, would it be above replacement level?

Can you envision a future where IVF was the primary means of reproduction?

That's plain scary... (God would never allow it)

Last edited by Gotterdammerung, 18-Sep-2011 at 14:53.
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(18-Sep-2011 at 15:19)


Re: Is god against homophobes

Originally Posted by Gotterdammerung: View Post
O.K. then.

What percentage of gay people have sex for reproduction?

Given a gay majority, would it be above replacement level?

Can you envision a future where IVF was the primary means of reproduction?

That's plain scary... (God would never allow it)
I can not only envision it but I think it's just a matter of time before the primary means of reproduction becomes sceintific even if you exclude gays from the equation. Pregnancy can be a huge disruption for the profesional lives and I am prety sure that in just a few decades we will have artifial wombs where all the children will be grown without all the problems and dangers a pregnancy causes

Well in the industralised countries. Second and third world countries as always will be screwed

The very powerful and the very stupid have one thing in common; they don't alter their views to fit the facts, they alter the facts to fit the views

Last edited by DHoffryn, 18-Sep-2011 at 15:20.
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(18-Sep-2011 at 16:07)


Re: Is god against homophobes

Originally Posted by Gotterdammerung: View Post
Yes, thankyou, back on topic.

On the large scale, homosexuality is a luxury. If we were all gay, humanity would die out. This is not to say that homosexuality is bad, but that it is not recommended for the majority.

In this regard, it is impossible for God to say, "yes, go forth and practice homosexuality freely", but at the same time, in times where homosexuality has been punished in scripture, it has only been when it has practiced on a large scale.

In general, homosexuality is put in a negative light, because scripture is meant to represent an example for everyone to follow. But homosexuality has and will always be practiced, so it's important to read between the lines.

So here's the verdict: God is not against homophobia, because it does have it's uses, as it can put balance back into societies that are threatened by large-scale homophobia. This is also to say that homosexuality will never be allowed to be practiced by the mainstream. I'm sorry to admit it, but it's necessary attitude for the future generations of society. On the other hand, God is not against gays, only large-scale homosexuality.
Loving the fact you think that homosexuality is something that will threaten the reproduction of the species, that somehow left unchecked it will turn every man off women and vice versa.

Rest assured it won't. Homosexuality occurs in a minority of our species, and in other species of animal it has been observed in. It's quite simply letting yourself descend into hysterics to think otherwise.


But lets, go back to the subject at hand. Why would god interupt the pope when he's speaking about the "evils" of homosexuality?

People, like snowflakes, are all slightly different, but we all follow the same patterns -Stewie
Believe those who are seeking the truth; doubt those who find it.

Some people are like Slinkies- absolutely useless, but always fun to push down stairs!

Last edited by Azure Dragon, 18-Sep-2011 at 16:10.
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(18-Sep-2011 at 18:19)


Originally Posted by Gottadammerung:
That there is a difference between small and large scale homosexuality in how it affects society, is not contradictory.
Maybe, but 'God is not against gays as long as there are not too many of them' is. If you don't believe that, answer this: if there were a lot of gays, would your imaginary friend be for them or against them?

"Patriotism is the last refuge of a scoundrel." But let it be considered that he did not mean a real and generous love of our country, but that pretended patriotism which so many, in all ages and countries, have made a cloak of self- interest.
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(19-Sep-2011 at 03:04)
Re: Is god against homophobes

Originally Posted by Voice of Reason: View Post
Maybe, but 'God is not against gays as long as there are not too many of them' is. If you don't believe that, answer this: if there were a lot of gays, would your imaginary friend be for them or against them?
Here's the condition.

It's not contradictory.

Homosexuality is tolerated to a certain point depending how how many gays there are.
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(19-Sep-2011 at 03:06)
Re: Is god against homophobes

Originally Posted by DHoffryn: View Post
I can not only envision it but I think it's just a matter of time before the primary means of reproduction becomes sceintific even if you exclude gays from the equation. Pregnancy can be a huge disruption for the profesional lives and I am prety sure that in just a few decades we will have artifial wombs where all the children will be grown without all the problems and dangers a pregnancy causes

Well in the industralised countries. Second and third world countries as always will be screwed
In such a future humans may lose the ability to reproduce and give birth naturally. That is very disturbing to me.
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(19-Sep-2011 at 03:14)
Re: Is god against homophobes

Originally Posted by Azure Dragon: View Post
Loving the fact you think that homosexuality is something that will threaten the reproduction of the species, that somehow left unchecked it will turn every man off women and vice versa.

Rest assured it won't. Homosexuality occurs in a minority of our species, and in other species of animal it has been observed in. It's quite simply letting yourself descend into hysterics to think otherwise.
I'm not sure what the exact point of 'damaging influence on society's reproduction levels' is but I'd imagine is still a minority level.

In any case, you asked, I answered.

Quote:
But lets, go back to the subject at hand. Why would god interupt the pope when he's speaking about the "evils" of homosexuality?
Ratzinger is a heretic. So it's not black and white.

And like I said, God doesn't necessarily dislike gays anyway.
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(19-Sep-2011 at 03:47)


Quote:
Homosexuality is tolerated to a certain point depending how how many gays there are.
You are avoiding answering the question, by rephrasing the same statement and pretending it is an answer.


Quote:
And like I said, God doesn't necessarily dislike gays anyway.
Does your imaginary friend like gays if there are a lot of them? It is a simple little yes or no question.

"Patriotism is the last refuge of a scoundrel." But let it be considered that he did not mean a real and generous love of our country, but that pretended patriotism which so many, in all ages and countries, have made a cloak of self- interest.
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(19-Sep-2011 at 04:26)


Quote:
There is a bunch of activist squabbling over a label -
Which is exactly what you are doing. Now tell me, In what way does same sex marriage threaten straight couples who are married, or the institution of marriage itself?

Your whole position is that same sex marriage is somehow inferior and should not be allowed to be called marriage. No other logical conclusion can be reached.

Quote:
Maybe, but 'God is not against gays as long as there are not too many of them' is. If you don't believe that, answer this: if there were a lot of gays, would your imaginary friend be for them or against them?
I really wonder why God would care if a person is gay or not.

Quote:
Why would god interupt the pope when he's speaking about the "evils" of homosexuality?
If you believe in a force of good, there is also a force of evil you likely believe in. Why would God only be the cause of natural occurences?

Quote:
What percentage of gay people have sex for reproduction?
What does this matter, really? How many people need to exist to populate the earth? Why should love take a back seat to social mores or even survival of a species?

Quote:
Given a gay majority, would it be above replacement level?
All studies and reports suggest that the earth is overpopulated at the moment, so we should be trying to reduce population.

Quote:
Can you envision a future where IVF was the primary means of reproduction?
Unfortunately I can envision a future where fewer and fewer people will be needed except for wars and cheap labor. I can envision a future where a person with any job is lucky, where people starve in the streets of our nations.

“The law, in its majestic equality, forbids the rich as well as the poor to sleep under bridges, to beg in the streets, and to steal bread.”
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(19-Sep-2011 at 05:09)
Re: Is god against homophobes

Originally Posted by filcher: View Post
Why should love take a back seat to social mores or even survival of a species?
Are you insane?

You want to condemn the future of the species just so you can get poked up the bum on a regular basis?

I don't believe homosexuals are really that selfish.
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(19-Sep-2011 at 05:12)


Quote:
But lets, go back to the subject at hand. Why would god interupt the pope when he's speaking about the "evils" of homosexuality?
Well if we go by the premise that god is all powerful and thus everything is in fact controlled by him this could be a sign that he either disagrees with the topic, the speaker or how he the speaker handles the topic. And also it depends on which god you go by. If you go by the politically correct freindly Jesus version it could mean that he wants gays treated better. If we go by the old timey psycho god version it could mean he is angry that the church is not going for wholesale slaughter of gays


Quote:
I suspect that you are referring, in an oblique way, to tyranny by the majority. I agree the majority should not be allowed to oppress a minority, but there is no tyranny involved here. There are no rights being violated.
Well that's a silly logic. How can you violate rights that you haven't given them in the first place? That's like saying that that the black people's rights weren't violated in the USA because thechnically they didn't have them. This is not about dictionary definitions or some specific phrasing in some text no matter how much you want it to be. This is about a simple issue of right and wrong. And it's wrong to deny millions of people the right to do something so simple. It maye not seem like a big deal to people like you and me but to some the concept of marriage is quite important. And not being able to do it or being told that because of what you your idea of marraige is inferior and thus has to be renamed is a pointless way to humilate these people and frankly I don't see the need for it

Quote:
Fair is subjective. I don't think there is anything fair about an activist minority demanding that a majority accept their views but you seem to think it is okay.
Provided it actually affected the majority in any truly negative way you might have some point. Frankly I don't see how this would affect me in the slightest. How exactly does it affect me or anyone else from the our precious majority that you care so much about if gay people were to get married? The way I see it it won't affect me in the slightest but would make millions of people very happy. Seems like a fair and good deal

Quote:
Most, I would have said, based on that being pretty much the view taken by everybody I know.
Mirrors don't count

Quote:
In such a future humans may lose the ability to reproduce and give birth naturally. That is very disturbing to me.
Not really. That would happen theoretically in a few million years provided humans suddenly lose interest in sex as well or decide to modify themselves genetically so they can't do it. But in case by then genetic engineering will be evolved to the point where natural evolution as whole won't really be reelvant anyway(well except for the bacteria and so on. This will always be a problem)

Quote:
I really wonder why God would care if a person is gay or not.
Well one intepration would be that God wants only straight people and by "chosing" to be gay one goes against his will and this disrespects him

Quote:
If you believe in a force of good, there is also a force of evil you likely believe in. Why would God only be the cause of natural occurences?
Because he is all powerful

The very powerful and the very stupid have one thing in common; they don't alter their views to fit the facts, they alter the facts to fit the views

Last edited by DHoffryn, 19-Sep-2011 at 05:17.
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(19-Sep-2011 at 05:15)
Re: Is god against homophobes

Originally Posted by Voice of Reason: View Post
Does your imaginary friend like gays if there are a lot of them? It is a simple little yes or no question.
'Imaginary friend' ? Stop saying that. You're hurting my feelings.

And I'm not falling for your absolutist nonsense. It's conditional, not either/or. God doesn't approve when society practices homosexuality too much. That is all.

Does God dislike gays if there is a lot of them? No he doesn't. God dislikes gay behaviour when there is a lot of them. Because God likes babies. Adam and Eve style, not wanking into a test tube style.
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(19-Sep-2011 at 05:29)
Re: Is god against homophobes

Originally Posted by DHoffryn: View Post
Not really. That would happen theoretically in a few million years provided humans suddenly lose interest in sex as well or decide to modify themselves genetically so they can't do it. But in case by then genetic engineering will be evolved to the point where natural evolution as whole won't really be reelvant anyway(well except for the bacteria and so on. This will always be a problem)
Reliance on technology is not a smart move.

God is a primitivist. Back to basics, the way he made them. That's what he likes.
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