Posts: 1367/1637
(19-Sep-2011 at 08:52) |
Re: Is god against homophobes
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is okay with gays as long as they don't do any of the things that define them as gay?
If you push gay pride too far God will not be pleased, because the majority of people have been made to reproduce in straight relationships. Yes, it is possible to make a society more 'gay' over time. |
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Posts: 6700/7006
(19-Sep-2011 at 11:34) ![]() |
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You're no fun VoR.
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You can be gay so long as you recognise your place in society.
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Yes, it is possible to make a society more 'gay' over time.
"Patriotism is the last refuge of a scoundrel." But let it be considered that he did not mean a real and generous love of our country, but that pretended patriotism which so many, in all ages and countries, have made a cloak of self- interest. |
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Posts: 6701/7006
(19-Sep-2011 at 13:19) ![]() |
I don't really see the connection between sexuality and place in society. Are you going say what a gay's place in society is, then? According to iFriend of course...
"Patriotism is the last refuge of a scoundrel." But let it be considered that he did not mean a real and generous love of our country, but that pretended patriotism which so many, in all ages and countries, have made a cloak of self- interest. |
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Posts: 3931/3983
(19-Sep-2011 at 17:39) ![]() |
Re: Is god against homophobes
"In what way does calling apples oranges threaten oranges?"...
You are throwing up straw-men. I never said it threatened married couples and I never said it threatened the institution of marriage. They are your own invention.
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If you scroll down a little bit and read what I say, my position is that civil union is the equal of marriage and gay activists should stop saying it isn't. I guess that logical conclusion evaded you.
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"Then perhaps they should stop going around telling each other it is less than equal?
Essentially this is a case of "civil union is not equal, *because we say so*" “The law, in its majestic equality, forbids the rich as well as the poor to sleep under bridges, to beg in the streets, and to steal bread.” |
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![]() hoooly shit have I missed a good debate, but its been fun reading
![]() So much to respond to ... VoR: You're wrong about the UDHR when you stated that
if they bothered to read article 16 of the UNDHR that grants a human right to marriage, it specifically states marriage between men and women.
Granted that last part might seem to be a small change but there's a reason, I'll let everyone figure it out. While it may not have been specifically designed for it, it does allow for the inclusion of gay marriage.
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It would require a sentence with conflicting ideas, as founding a family and men marrying men contradict.
In most societies it is the principal institution for the socialization of children. Extended from the human "family unit" by biological-cultural affinity, marriage, economy, culture, tradition, honour, and friendship are concepts of family that are physical and metaphorical, or that grow increasingly inclusive extending to community, village, city, region, nationhood, global village and humanism. What you are thinking of is a nuclear family consisting of a father, mother and their children. Basically your whole argument on this comes from incorrect information and assumption. So no, it does not specifically state that marriage is between a woman and a man.
All studies and reports suggest that the earth is overpopulated at the moment, so we should be trying to reduce population.
Wars will be fought over food. Being gay is good for the planet.
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Why would god let the weather interrupt this speech by the Pope?
Especially one who represents an organization that has such a colorful history of violence, intolerance, deceit, and the list just goes on for frickin ever. God isnt against anyone, regardless of what you want to think. Now then .. that being my 2¢ Get on topic ... I believe we have a thread on the subject of gay marraige ... use it This thread was suppose to be about God hatin on the pope ... next OT post gets warned and the thread gets shut down Hit me up on Facebook ![]() |
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Posts: 1369/1637
(20-Sep-2011 at 08:22) |
Re: Is god against homophobes
I don't really see the connection between sexuality and place in society. Are you going say what a gay's place in society is, then?
'Knowing your place in society' was a fairly liberal statement, not prejudicial. Except perhaps when things do get out of hand, then prejudice is necessary. Liberal freedom is always the ideal, afterall God loves everyone. But there certainly is a backup plan in place to make sure God's creation functions as intended.
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According to iFriend of course...
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Posts: 1370/1637
(20-Sep-2011 at 08:55) |
Re: Is god against homophobes
Gay people have their role, certainly. But birthrates in the West are at historical lows, at least, the White middle-class is at historical lows. I fit into that category, and personally that statement is disturbing to me.
Naturally, Christians want to give birth to future generations of Christians. Gay people fit into the overall picture in their own way, but generally what is good for the planet, for Christians, is more Christians. So this depends on your perspectice. Muslims want more Muslims, Jews more Jews, etc. etc. Do gay people want more gays? Interesting question. I suppose this is certainly why they find themselves as a community always butting their head against the establishment, because there is no 'tradition' of homosexuality being reinforced over the generations. It is impossible for the gay community to get a foothold in society, as each generation has to fight the battle for acceptance all over again. Momentum is the only strategy gays have. The rules of the game mean that there can be no final, enduring victory for homosexuality. It's a perpetual uphill struggle, and always will be. God made it that way. Does God hate homosexuals? No, he doesn't. But there are measures in place that mean that society will die out before it is allowed to be overly gay. Therefore homosexuality will always, always be on the fringes. If it isn't, then society will decline, cease to exist, or be taken over by other reproducing people. This is not me saying homsexuality is wrong. I'm saying that for society to continue effectively homosexuals must always be a minority. And a part of enforcing this may be small pockets of resistance to the gay community in general. It would, at least, be impossible to existinguish these elements (for reasons mentioned above), just like it would be impossible nor desireable to existinguish gay people. We have to just live with each other 'knowing our own place in society' and not overstep that mark. What mark? The mark inherent to the system God created. The necessary and inevitable parts that allow society to continue and dare I say, prosper. |
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Posts: 6704/7006
(20-Sep-2011 at 12:07) ![]() |
Originally Posted by Gottadammerung:
I have no interest in telling anyone what to do, only in telling people not to go overboard with their agenda. This is perfectly fair and reasonable.
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birthrates in the West are at historical lows, at least, the White middle-class is at historical lows. I fit into that category, and personally that statement is disturbing to me
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there is no 'tradition' of homosexuality being reinforced over the generations
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God made it that way. Does God hate homosexuals? No, he doesn't.
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We have to just live with each other 'knowing our own place in society' and not overstep that mark. What mark? The mark inherent to the system God created.
Originally Posted by Saint Sinner:
If this document wanted to purposely exclude homosexuals it would have began with "A man and a woman.."
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it would also have said "have the right to marry and to have a family."
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What you are thinking of is a nuclear family consisting of a father, mother and their children.
"Patriotism is the last refuge of a scoundrel." But let it be considered that he did not mean a real and generous love of our country, but that pretended patriotism which so many, in all ages and countries, have made a cloak of self- interest. |
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Posts: 2774/2825
(20-Sep-2011 at 12:36) ![]() |
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Reliance on technology is not a smart move.
God is a primitivist. Back to basics, the way he made them. That's what he likes
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As in, ride at the back of the bus?
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If you push gay pride too far God will not be pleased, because the majority of people have been made to reproduce in straight relationships.
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Wars will be fought over food.
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Because God doesnt control the weather for one man to make a speech.
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Especially one who represents an organization that has such a colorful history of violence, intolerance, deceit, and the list just goes on for frickin ever
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This thread was suppose to be about God hatin on the pope ... next OT post gets warned and the thread gets shut down
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Gay people have their role, certainly. But birthrates in the West are at historical lows, at least, the White middle-class is at historical lows. I fit into that category, and personally that statement is disturbing to me.
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The rules of the game mean that there can be no final, enduring victory for homosexuality. It's a perpetual uphill struggle, and always will be.
The very powerful and the very stupid have one thing in common; they don't alter their views to fit the facts, they alter the facts to fit the views |
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Posts: 3932/3983
(20-Sep-2011 at 15:59) ![]() |
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It would be, if gay was an agenda.
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And in case we manage to find god we cna use our science to kill him so it would be irreleavant what he wants
Religions are some of the greatest ideological teachers there are.
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But if we go by the assumption that God controls everything becuase he is all powerful then the entire world even the smallest things like the weather changes could be interperted as a reflection of his will
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Actually it's about whether god currently approves or not of homophobes. The pope was just an example
“The law, in its majestic equality, forbids the rich as well as the poor to sleep under bridges, to beg in the streets, and to steal bread.” Last edited by filcher, 20-Sep-2011 at 16:02. |
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That would be grammatically wrong. Statements of general truth are plural, not singular. Cats (plural) climb trees. Aeroplanes (plural) go fast. Birds (plural) sing. And men (plural) have a right to marry women (plural). Statements of general truth do not need to be plural. A cat can climb a tree. An airplane can go fast. A man has the right to marry a woman. I was going to use your bird example but its wrong, not all birds can sing. but I do have one more example of a statement of general truth that is not plural ..The Earth revolves around the Sun.
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Have = possess. Found = create or start. Work it out.
Have doesnt just = possess.
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Explain how you can *found* any other sort.
Its not about the individual words themselves, but about how they come together 1. Men and women of full age, without any limitation due to race, nationality or religion, have the right to marry and to found a family. They are entitled to equal rights as to marriage, during marriage and at its dissolution. vs 2. A man and woman of full age, without limitations to race, nationality or religion, have the right to marry and to have a family. They are entitled to equal rights as to marriage, during marriage and at its dissolution. My version, though not being completely specific, gives the impression that marriage is between a man and woman while still being general in its assertions. The use of the word 'have' in place of 'found' also lends to this impression by the use of association. Didnt think of that, but water should be easier to come by with a little knowledge. Guess we will just wait and see.
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Actually it's about whether god currently approves or not of homophobes. The pope was just an example
Hit me up on Facebook ![]() |
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Posts: 6705/7006
(21-Sep-2011 at 05:53) ![]() |
Originally Posted by Saint Sinner:
A cat can climb a tree. An airplane can go fast. A man has the right to marry a woman.
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I do have one more example of a statement of general truth that is not plural ..The Earth revolves around the Sun
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My version, though not being completely specific, gives the impression that marriage is between a man and woman
The UNDHR applies to *all* men and *all* women because they *all* have the right, which is why it is phrased as a general truth and not an individual ability. 'All' is plural. By definition.
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The use of the word 'have' in place of 'found' also lends to this impression by the use of association.
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Didnt think of that, but water should be easier to come by with a little knowledge. Guess we will just wait and see.
It is not a knowledge issue. We all know where the water is, and have the ability to purify salt water. The problem is that is is hugely expensive to do that, which would turn water into an expensive commodity. Fresh water is much cheaper and easier to clean, and the conflict will come where rivers are used as borders, or flow through more than one country. Consider China's occupation of Tibet in that light.
Originally Posted by filcher:
the fact you and others are opposed to gays using the term marriage, suggests there is a social stigma attached.
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all of which have been written by men, for others of like mind, and edited to reflect the beliefs our societies are based upon,
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Religions are some of the greatest ideological teachers there are.
To clarify before you start leaping to your convenient conclusions, I draw a distinction between God (doesn't exist), religion (a culture like any other), and church (an organisation). You appear to be lumping everything together in one incoherent lump.
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I cannot envision God as depicted in the Old Testament, having a sexuality.
![]() "Patriotism is the last refuge of a scoundrel." But let it be considered that he did not mean a real and generous love of our country, but that pretended patriotism which so many, in all ages and countries, have made a cloak of self- interest. |
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Posts: 6709/7006
(21-Sep-2011 at 08:03) ![]() |
People have an agenda. Some of them might be gay. Gay as a concept or a sexual act has no mind, and therefore no agenda.
"Patriotism is the last refuge of a scoundrel." But let it be considered that he did not mean a real and generous love of our country, but that pretended patriotism which so many, in all ages and countries, have made a cloak of self- interest. |
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Posts: 3936/3983
(21-Sep-2011 at 09:01) ![]() |
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Read what I say instead of forming your own self-serving conclusions and then pretending it is what I think
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Why do you pick on religion?
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Religion is the ideology, not the teacher. You may be able to blame war and conflict on the teachers, but you cannot blame the religion. Crusades where not caused by the Bible. terrorism is not caused by the Q'ran. Both are caused by people using religion as a tool.
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He loves everybody. Bisexual?
“The law, in its majestic equality, forbids the rich as well as the poor to sleep under bridges, to beg in the streets, and to steal bread.” |
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Posts: 6710/7006
(21-Sep-2011 at 09:57) ![]() |
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Gays want to call their unions marriage. Straight people oppose this, but can still call their civil unions marriage. The conclusion is that marriage has an implied status within society that is more acceptable than civil union
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If it read political Discussions I would be talking about political parties.
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I would say that to most people, the religious leaders do define the religion.
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Yes, I should have phrased the response as religious leaders, but I would think that is plain, as a religion can not teach, but an advocate of that religion can.
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Does God have a physical body, which would imply he does experience sensory impulses of some sort, so love and hate and even sex may be experienced by him, or is he simply a spirit without a physical form.
"Patriotism is the last refuge of a scoundrel." But let it be considered that he did not mean a real and generous love of our country, but that pretended patriotism which so many, in all ages and countries, have made a cloak of self- interest. |
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They are not statements of general truth. They are statements of individual ability.
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"*A* man and *a* woman..." Very good, but which man and which woman?
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If the married couple have parents or siblings they already *have* a family, which is why the writers of the UNDHR used 'found', to make it clear that they mean the married couple producing children.
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You cannot make a general statement about unique objects. By definition.
A, are you kidding me? And B, seriously, are you freaking kidding me? The earth revolves around the sun. Its statement as evidenced by the use of a period at the end. Its general ... doesnt give specific information about how or why the Earth revolves around the Sun. Its true ... as in its frickin true. Thus .. a statement of general truth Lets apply it else where .. A man has a penis. Again .. Statement (see the period?) General (doesnt give specifics on the man or the penis, and can be applied to nearly every man and/or penis) Truth (Barring outside forces this is generally true of every man) A cat can climb a tree. yet again.. Statement(we know why by now) General(Doesnt give specifics on the cat, the tree, or even how it was climbed and can be applied to nearly any cat and/or tree) Truth (Google 'cat climbing tree') Hit me up on Facebook ![]() |
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Posts: 6712/7006
(21-Sep-2011 at 17:30) ![]() |
This is getting tiresome. I really should know better than to start arguing grammar with amateurs...
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Well thats not correct
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It could be applied to any man and any woman.
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The earth revolves around the sun.
[..] Its general ... I suggest you now look for the word 'general', as you seem to be having a lot of trouble with it. OED says: "Including, participated in by, involving, or affecting, all, or nearly all, the parts of a specified whole, or the persons or things to which there is an implied reference; completely or approximately universal within implied limits; opposed to partial or particular." All is not one. A general truth does not and cannot refer to one, *by definition*. "Patriotism is the last refuge of a scoundrel." But let it be considered that he did not mean a real and generous love of our country, but that pretended patriotism which so many, in all ages and countries, have made a cloak of self- interest. |
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