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(Posted as Belili)
Posts: 900/1178
Donated $9.01
(17-May-2006 at 04:51)


Guantanamo Bay - Torture or not?

This came up in another thred, I switched threds to avoid 3 deadly WP

I wrote a paper about this (had to be tailored to a few specific cases, and limited in pages). Keep in mind it was written months ago... some developments may be ignored.

Check it out and let me know what you think

That's the gist of my opinion...

Rumsfeld is guilty of authorizing torture... national and international law says so.
Attached Files
File Type: doc HR PAPER!.doc (54.0 KB, 26 views)

Belili : Sexy :: Naz : Warning Points

Last edited by Belili, 17-May-2006 at 04:52.
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(17-May-2006 at 05:34)


I thought the paper was well written and presented both sides well.
The definition of torture has been changed by the current administration, yet what is being done by the US government is as reprehensible as anything done by Saddam or the terrorists, simply because it is being done by the authority of the citizens of the US.
You can not hope to be a moral, ethical or spiritual leader when you commit knowingly acts that can be defined as torture by the old definitions of the word. The same with enemy combatants, the Geneva conventions do not list any other category but military or civilian; 'unlawful combatants' are criminals and should be subject to criminal prosecution as such. That many have been denied trial, for years, before being released due to insufficient evidence further demonstrates the erosion of moral values by the US towards other nation's citizens.

“The law, in its majestic equality, forbids the rich as well as the poor to sleep under bridges, to beg in the streets, and to steal bread.”
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(17-May-2006 at 05:48)


Re: Guantanamo Bay - Torture or not?

Originally Posted by filcher:
what is being done by the US government is as reprehensible as anything done by Saddam
You completely lack any understanding of the concept of mass graves and gassing entire communities of Kurds, don't you?

Even if I were to 'go there' with you regarding Gitmo, you still would be on the wrong side of the statement you just made.

This thread IS still about Guantanamo Bay, isn't it? Or is off-topic only selectively enforced and regular anti-US tirades now acceptable everywhere and anywhere?

Man is the only animal that blushes, or needs to.-- Mark Twain

Last edited by Michael1, 17-May-2006 at 05:53.
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(17-May-2006 at 06:14)


Re: Guantanamo Bay - Torture or not?

Nice paper. I really don't undersand how anyone can believe that torture hasn't happened in that prison.
I pray that justice is served. We cannot claim any sort of moral authority over murderous dictators as long as we practice these sorts of activities.

"I KEEK A TOUCHDOWN!" - Garo Yepremian
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(17-May-2006 at 12:08)


Re: Guantanamo Bay - Torture or not?

Originally Posted by Michael1:
You completely lack any understanding of the concept of mass graves and gassing entire communities of Kurds, don't you?

Even if I were to 'go there' with you regarding Gitmo, you still would be on the wrong side of the statement you just made.

This thread IS still about Guantanamo Bay, isn't it? Or is off-topic only selectively enforced and regular anti-US tirades now acceptable everywhere and anywhere?
As usual a knee jerk emotional response that does not address my statement, merely attacks me personally. And I am talking about Gitmo abuses, not the other alleged atrocities committed by coalition troops, contractors and private military forces in Iraq. These all belong in other threads, along with Kurds, mass graves, and WoMD.
You still don't understand that what Saddam did was not supported by the people of Iraq, it was done under a dictatorship. What the uS is doing in Gauntanamo is being supported by the american people. This support has continued even though there is sufficient evidence that interrogation techniques are being used that are excessive and abusive, and border on the new definition of torture.
Add to this the certainty that rendition flights have taken place, (also in the paper so not off topic) contrary to international law, and it furthers suggests a nation sorely lacking in morality.
Iraq had torture as a policy of Saddam and the Baath party; the US is engaging in torture as a policy of their citizens. (called citizen accountability in a democracy)

“The law, in its majestic equality, forbids the rich as well as the poor to sleep under bridges, to beg in the streets, and to steal bread.”
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(17-May-2006 at 13:09)


It is a pity that the West is so fixated on calling alleged abuses torture. It creates confusion and pain to thousands when you call such actions torture.

Case in point: more and more people are turning up dead in Iraq with signs of having been tortured to death, with REAL torture. Like pulling out fingernails, electro shock, and chopping off fingers.

When you lump all the U.S. has done, like playing loud music, putting people in a pile of naked men, or making them think they might get hurt, and call it torture, people get the wrong idea of what is happening. When a person on the other side of the world hears only "U.S. is torturing people" they get angry and respond by applying REAL torture to their own prisoners.

Not that the terrorists have any moral compunctions against torture in the first place, but mischaracterizing U.S. abuses as torture creates a load of unintended consequences.

The only confirmed abuses by the U.S. should be characterized as "humiliation", "degradation", or "stressing" or prisoners. If you want to make it a political statement call it "Illegal humiliation" or whatever. But don't call it torture just because you can find some weak definition of torture somewhere that includes everything from failing to make someone feel happy as torture.
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(17-May-2006 at 14:26)


Re: Guantanamo Bay - Torture or not?

Originally Posted by Royal Assassin3:
It is a pity that the West is so fixated on calling alleged abuses torture. It creates confusion and pain to thousands when you call such actions torture.

Case in point: more and more people are turning up dead in Iraq with signs of having been tortured to death, with REAL torture. Like pulling out fingernails, electro shock, and chopping off fingers.

When you lump all the U.S. has done, like playing loud music, putting people in a pile of naked men, or making them think they might get hurt, and call it torture, people get the wrong idea of what is happening. When a person on the other side of the world hears only "U.S. is torturing people" they get angry and respond by applying REAL torture to their own prisoners.

Not that the terrorists have any moral compunctions against torture in the first place, but mischaracterizing U.S. abuses as torture creates a load of unintended consequences.

The only confirmed abuses by the U.S. should be characterized as "humiliation", "degradation", or "stressing" or prisoners. If you want to make it a political statement call it "Illegal humiliation" or whatever. But don't call it torture just because you can find some weak definition of torture somewhere that includes everything from failing to make someone feel happy as torture.
Torture is generally defined as "any act by which severe pain, whether physical or psychological, is intentionally inflicted on a person as a means of intimidation, a deterrent, revenge, a punishment, or as a method for the extraction of information or confessions."

Methods such as water boarding and extreme sensory or sleep deprivation, while not as severe a method of torture as chopping off fingers, does nevertheless meet the definition of torture. Many organisations, including the International Committee of the Red Cross, the U.N. Commission on Human Rights, Amnesty International and Human Rights Watch, have classified it as such.
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(Posted as Belili)
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(17-May-2006 at 17:56)


Quote:
Case in point: more and more people are turning up dead in Iraq with signs of having been tortured to death, with REAL torture. Like pulling out fingernails, electro shock, and chopping off fingers.
Pulling out fingernails doesn't fit the Rumsfeld (incorrect) definition of torture. Electro shock could also pass threw the gaps if death is not a serious risk.

Quote:
playing loud music, putting people in a pile of naked men, or making them think they might get hurt,
Sexual assault is not torture? lol.. okay

It's nice you left out suffication, drowning, and tempeture induced pain.

But hey, that's okay! The other guy does worse!

Belili : Sexy :: Naz : Warning Points

Last edited by Belili, 17-May-2006 at 17:57.
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(17-May-2006 at 18:41)


Re: Guantanamo Bay - Torture or not?

Originally Posted by Belili:
Pulling out fingernails doesn't fit the Rumsfeld (incorrect) definition of torture. Electro shock could also pass threw the gaps if death is not a serious risk.
Considering that deaths have occured as a result of intensive interrogation techniques, I would suggest that what the US is doing is torture unnder even Rumsfield's definition. That the other type of torture, let's call it 'pleasant torture' does not cause physical harm, does not mean that there is not intensive emotional and psychological problems caused by it.
It is also note worthy to note that there are few detainees that are tortured, most are released without charges being made against them, or they are released and the authorities admit there was no evidence against them.
Meaning you are 'Pleasantly torturing' many innocent people.



Quote:
Sexual assault is not torture? lol.. okay

It's nice you left out suffication, drowning, and tempeture induced pain.

But hey, that's okay! The other guy does worse!
Remember that many of those being tortured today in Iraq are believed to be victims of the Shia and Sunni militias, both of which are creations of the US presence, and policy. Indeed, RA3 , claiming that the terrorists are drilling into body parts is unsubstantiated, and likely in error.
The beheading of people is the standard mode of execution in Muslim countries, apparently, as Saudi Arabia executes criminals in precisely this fashion.

“The law, in its majestic equality, forbids the rich as well as the poor to sleep under bridges, to beg in the streets, and to steal bread.”
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(17-May-2006 at 22:01)


Why do you feel the need to defend this crap? honestly are you that sheepish M1 and RA3? This is so obviously wrong that it's ridiculus for anyone to defened it, you would gain alot of credability if you just admited to this being wrong, and incase you don't think this is wrong then well... Good luck to you... :/
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(Posted as Uzgadra)
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(17-May-2006 at 22:12)


Whilst it is wrong to keep these people intured without evidence it is equally wrong to have your typical anti american tirade I cant even be arsed to read most of a couple of peeps post as you know its just going to be the same bullshit

on topic

USA is wrong to keep them locked up without trial IF they have evidence charge em try em and lock em up or execute them

the rest of the world should rember that the fanatics locked up there are there because they were involved in acts of war against the US and her allies

The british detainees that were there and have now been released afetr huge amounts of international pressure should also give an account of why they were in a war zone fighting against there adoptive country
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(17-May-2006 at 22:16)


Re: Guantanamo Bay - Torture or not?

Originally Posted by Uzgadra:
the rest of the world should rember that the fanatics locked up there are there because they were involved in acts of war against the US and her allies
What if the rest of the world doesn't take the United states word that theese people were infact in a war against the US?

Infact alot of people have testified that they were just picked up and handed over the US forces by fellow country men for a reward.

And even if the were in a war against the US then they are soldiers right? and thus deserve some rights, but no, they're not soldiers...

And (lot's of ands here) incase it was like you said, that they fought against "you" wasn't it you that invaded them? Weren't they just defending their own country?
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(17-May-2006 at 23:48)


Quote:
Whilst it is wrong to keep these people intured without evidence it is equally wrong to have your typical anti american tirade
Why is it wrong to criticize the US for torturing and infringing the rights of these people? That the US practices the abuse and humiliation of prisoners is backed up by evidence of released prisoners, by the rendition flights into countries where torture can be practised, by the UK documents released by Murray out of Uzbekistan, by the lack of cooperation from the US as far as human rights, by reports from human right organizations, newspaper accounts, and press releases, also from books and documentaries.
Criticism of a country's policy to deny the rights they claim to uphold is hypocrisy. To advance a policy of abuse and degradation against a foreign people is immorality, and racist. As Largoi says there can be no defense for policy that denies the Universal Declaration of Human Rights:
"Article 1.
All human beings are born free and equal in dignity and rights.They are endowed with reason and conscience and should act towards one another in a spirit of brotherhood.

Article 2.
Everyone is entitled to all the rights and freedoms set forth in this Declaration, without distinction of any kind, such as race, colour, sex, language, religion, political or other opinion, national or social origin, property, birth or other status. Furthermore, no distinction shall be made on the basis of the political, jurisdictional or international status of the country or territory to which a person belongs, whether it be independent, trust, non-self-governing or under any other limitation of sovereignty.

Article 3.
Everyone has the right to life, liberty and security of person.

Article 4.
No one shall be held in slavery or servitude; slavery and the slave trade shall be prohibited in all their forms.

Article 5.
No one shall be subjected to torture or to cruel, inhuman or degrading treatment or punishment."


Article 3 and 5 is being broken by the actions and policies of the US administration. Various other articles of the Declaration are being broken by the actvities of the administration. Educate yourself on the rights that former Americans believed in, and consider why they had a vision of the World that you now consider wrong. (and remember the circumstances of the World at the time of this Declaration.)


Quote:
the rest of the world should rember that the fanatics locked up there are there because they were involved in acts of war against the US and her allies
No. That is the problem; very few of the people detained in these prisons have been charged with any justifiable reason for being held. You must remember that people live in these areas, and being in a 'war zone' is not a crime or unusual if you reside there, or a visitor there.
These people have been held for years with no trial, have not been charged, and once released have not been compensated.

“The law, in its majestic equality, forbids the rich as well as the poor to sleep under bridges, to beg in the streets, and to steal bread.”
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(Posted as Uzgadra)
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(18-May-2006 at 08:43)


so if they arnt there fighting what are British Austrailian and American citizens doing in Afghanistan?

as much as you all appear to hate the west and stick to your brand of truth your just as blinkered

can any of you honestley say you know whats going on in Guantanamo bay?

Any of you haters been there and seen it? didnt think so

And please dont quote Al jahzeera or any of your other rabidley anti western/american sources bias is still bias even if it is your own

yes the USA is wrong to continue to hold these people as i said in my previous post charge them or release them but please dont use it as an excuse to beat the US with it cheapens the whole thing




To keep people detained indefinatley without trial and charges is torture it didnt work in N I for the British goverment and it still wont work now
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(18-May-2006 at 09:52)


Re: Guantanamo Bay - Torture or not?

Originally Posted by Uzgadra:
so if they arnt there fighting what are British Austrailian and American citizens doing in Afghanistan?

as much as you all appear to hate the west and stick to your brand of truth your just as blinkered

can any of you honestley say you know whats going on in Guantanamo bay?

Any of you haters been there and seen it? didnt think so

And please dont quote Al jahzeera or any of your other rabidley anti western/american sources bias is still bias even if it is your own
Did you even read Belili's paper (you know, the actual topic of discussion)? In case you havn't the relevant section is this:
Quote:
United Sates officials have utilized several methods of eliciting a response from prisoners. Rumsfeld detailed acceptable methods of interrogation in a report submitted on December 2, 2002. Rumsfeld suggested several methods of interrogation such as, "the use of scenarios designed to convince the detainee that death or severely painful consequences are imminent for him or his family."1 He accepted the use of "20 hour interrogations," and "exposure to cold weather or water." Rumsfeld also accepted the use of what has come to be known as "Water boarding". This practice involves, "a prisoner, who is bound and gagged, has water poured over him to make him think he is about to drown."2
The sources she cited were:
  1. Memorandum from the Office of the Secretary of Defense to William J. Haynes II. November 22, 2002. Approved by Donald Rumsfeld December 2, 2002.
  2. Sauer, Maddy and Vic Walter, Rich Esposito. 2005. "History of an Interrogation Technique: Water Boarding." ABC News. November 19, 2005. http://www.abcnews.go.com/WNT/Invest...ory?id=1356870

Neither source is Al-Jazeera and in my opinion Rumsfield probably believes he's doing what he believes is best for his country so I wouldn't exactly call him anti-American.

So to answer your question, can we know exactly what the conditions are like for the detainees? Probably not. I'm sure the US authorities wouldn't reveal in exact detail every interrogaion technique they've used but we do know (from non anti-Western sources) that some of them because they have been water boarding, forced nakedness, being placed in extremly stressful positions, and extreme sleep deprivation with exposure to hot and cold temperatures, bright lights and loud music. We also know that detainees have been subject to sensory deprivation, as seen from several pictures of detainees. Many Western Human Rights bodies view such practices as falling under the definition of torture.
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(Posted as Lodewijk)
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(18-May-2006 at 10:24)


Quote:
So to answer your question, can we know exactly what the conditions are like for the detainees? Probably not. I'm sure the US authorities wouldn't reveal in exact detail every interrogaion technique they've used but we do know (from non anti-Western sources) that some of them because they have been water boarding, forced nakedness, being placed in extremly stressful positions, and extreme sleep deprivation with exposure to hot and cold temperatures, bright lights and loud music. We also know that detainees have been subject to sensory deprivation, as seen from several pictures of detainees. Many Western Human Rights bodies view such practices as falling under the definition of torture.
A lawyer who was part of David Hicks' team lectured at uni a few weeks ago, and he provided us with some pretty extraordinary records of what's going on there. I'll put it up if I can be arsed finding my notes on that lecture.

All I can say is, anyone who thinks there isn't some level of torture of going on there has got to be dreaming. Whether or not that torture is justified is another question altogether, but even a cursory examination of the testimony of the inmates reveals the atrocities going on in there.

It's not beheadings or gassings, but it's definitely not kosher.

Is birth always a fall?
Do angels have wings? Can men fly?
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(18-May-2006 at 12:52)


Re: Guantanamo Bay - Torture or not?

Originally Posted by Uzgadra:
so if they arnt there fighting what are British Austrailian and American citizens doing in Afghanistan?
The armies of US, UK, and Afghanistan are occupation troops. Private citizens are there as part of NGO's , the press, and various corporations and security companies. There are few citizens of these countries involved with the terrorists.

Quote:
as much as you all appear to hate the west and stick to your brand of truth your just as blinkered
Why not provide proof that the US is telling the truth as far as the conditions concerning their detention centers? The fact is that no one but the US government has been allowed access to the detainees as detailed in the Declaration of Human Rights. It is easy for a government to claim to uphold the Law, but as is seen in other countries, claims of upholding of Rights is not always born out by evidences unearthed under scrutiny by inspectors.
Under the many allegations of Rights abuse, the US is still recalcitrant towards international verification of the humane treatment of prisoners. It is impossible to support governmental policy that is opposite to the values of a nation and it's citizens. You are left with the realization that if the government is practising Human Rights Abuses, against innocent people, then support for their practices is support of draconic measures against a foreign peoples.

Quote:
can any of you honestley say you know whats going on in Guantanamo bay?
No. Can you though, any better than us?
But we use sources that do report what is reported as happening, and we rely on findings of committees that are considered as being informed and knowledgable about Human Rights, and act according to international statutes. unfortunately these groups have not been allowed into US detention centers.

Quote:
Any of you haters been there and seen it? didnt think so

Quote:
So provide irrefutable proof we are wrong, if you are so sure.
And please dont quote Al jahzeera or any of your other rabidley anti western/american sources bias is still bias even if it is your own
I have seen US government documents used by Lodewijk, and I have used the Declaration of Human Rights, from the UN. You do not refer to these, but attack our arguments and sources without a clue, apparently, of knowing what they are or actually say.

Quote:
yes the USA is wrong
So you agree what the US is doing is contrary to their legal moral and ethical beliefs? So why do you have a problem with ou criticism of their policies?

Quote:
to continue to hold these people as i said in my previous post charge them or release them but please dont use it as an excuse to beat the US with it cheapens the whole thing
Any nation that denies due process to their prisoners is dealing with abuse and degradation and failure to acknowledge rights, and is operating outside international agreements on what is accepted behavior. That the acts of the US are criminal, and can be compared to the acts of the totalitarian states that are often criticized by the Americanb press, is precisely why we must criticise the US for these practices. If these abuse allegations are true, how can our criticism of the policies practised cheapen the reputation of the US any further than the practice would?
Do you believe that torture and abuse are acceptable in today's prisons?




Quote:
To keep people detained indefinatley without trial and charges is torture it didnt work in N I for the British goverment and it still wont work now
So why do you support this practise?

“The law, in its majestic equality, forbids the rich as well as the poor to sleep under bridges, to beg in the streets, and to steal bread.”
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(19-May-2006 at 19:48)


I wouldnt say its torture. You wanna know what torture is? I would refer to the third section (book 3 i suppose) of 1984. Yah.

"Those who would give up Essential Liberty to purchase a little Temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety." - Benjamin Franklin
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(Posted as Belili)
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(19-May-2006 at 21:11)


Quote:
I wouldnt say its torture. You wanna know what torture is? I would refer to the third section (book 3 i suppose) of 1984. Yah.
I didn't know 1984 was international or national law... huh

There's always a more extreme form of torture... this doesn't make the former any less torture...

A little update... it looks like the inmates are getting sick of torture and indefinite detainment...

http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/americ...ash/index.html

The UK has requested the camp be shut down... the UN requested the same... even Iran requested it....

Former US generals, Human Rights groups accross the globe, former US presidents...

sigh... does this administration listen to anybody besides the voice of God inside their heads?

Belili : Sexy :: Naz : Warning Points
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(21-May-2006 at 15:04)


Re: Guantanamo Bay - Torture or not?

Originally Posted by Belili:
even Iran requested it....
just had to quote that one for humor.

Quote:
All I can say is, anyone who thinks there isn't some level of torture of going on there has got to be dreaming. Whether or not that torture is justified is another question altogether, but even a cursory examination of the testimony of the inmates reveals the atrocities going on in there.
Testimony of inmates hardly counts as evidence of torture. Al-Queda members have been trained to claim torture because they want us to do exactly what we are doing now. (ie. have the UN etc. demonize the U.S.)

http://www.washingtontimes.com/natio...1655-7932r.htm

A thorough examination of the testimony of such released persons has revealed no evidence whatsoever of torture.

You want to see "confirmed" actions you should look at what is cited in the UN draft itself:

Quote:
Harsh conditions, including placing detainees in solitary confinement, stripping them naked, subjecting them to severe temperatures or threatening them with dogs could amount to torture, if used simultaneously, the report said. Forced-feeding of hunger strikers through nasal tubes caused intense pain, bleeding and vomiting.

Huh?! So force feeding (which appears to be their biggest concern) someone who is on a hunger strike now amounts to torture? What kind of imbeciles hang out at the UN? Are we supposed to let them die? Are there any better ways to force feed someone on a hunger strike?

Nope. You can't pry open the mouth because that might break their teeth. Anal feeding tubes I would see as a far worse method both in terms of pain, humiliation, and effectiveness. So that leaves the nose, that while likely resulting in bleeding (ever stuck your finger in your nose and had it bleed?) and gag reflex vomiting causes no real damage and effectively allows a normal path of food consumption through the digestive system.

But I guess the liberal crazies out there would love to see a hunger strike continue because then they could get pictures of people starved down to skeletons for their anti-U.S. propaganda campaigns. * spit *

And it is quite amusing to see that the other items "amount to torture if used simultaneously". Preposterous that a combination of unrelated non-tortures suddenly becomes torture when used together. That is really grasping.


Quote:
Methods such as water boarding and extreme sensory or sleep deprivation, while not as severe a method of torture as chopping off fingers, does nevertheless meet the definition of torture. Many organisations, including the International Committee of the Red Cross, the U.N. Commission on Human Rights, Amnesty International and Human Rights Watch, have classified it as such.
Water boarding really pushes my limits on what I consider non-torture. In fact, so much so that I want my government to stop that practice. But everything else I have heard of so far is fair game.


Quote:
Pulling out fingernails doesn't fit the Rumsfeld (incorrect) definition of torture. Electro shock could also pass threw the gaps if death is not a serious risk.

Sexual assault is not torture? lol.. okay

It's nice you left out suffication, drowning, and tempeture induced pain.

But hey, that's okay! The other guy does worse!
Fingernail pulling and electroshock would fit the U.S. definition of turture as it causes extreme pain.

Putting a naked person in a cool room for a long time does not induce pain and thus is not torture. (although it is unplesant)

Sexual assault is not torture. It is "sexual assault" and is a crime that has been delt with appropriately.

Quote:
A little update... it looks like the inmates are getting sick of torture and indefinite detainment...
Rather, the inmates have found that they can exploit our care for their welfare as a method of continuing their little jihad.

Interesting that even the terrorists realize that we will go so far as to risk American lives to save a suspected terrorist from harm, but the left can't seem to recognize that.
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