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Posts: 2206/2397
(15-Jun-2008 at 16:11)


Re: Cluster Bomb Treaty: USA is out of step with the world again...

Originally Posted by Michael1: View Post
Who's spinning? You're being entirely hypocritical by whining about the US not doing something that your country won't do.

Why don't you start focusing on your hell hole rather than boring the fuck out of all of us with your incessant 'here's another reason why I hate Americans' threads?
Why don't you focus on making your country better than it is instead of on what VoR says? If you think cluster bombs are bad say so, if not then say so, there's really no grey area in between here.

He's also not hypocritical, if he disagress with what his own country is doing he has every right to criticize others who do the same, but if he thinks his country can do one thing (for example have cluster bombs in their arsenal) then he is hypocritical if others can't do the same.

Backa backa mother.....
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Posts: 3226/3861
(15-Jun-2008 at 19:10)


Re: Cluster Bomb Treaty: USA is out of step with the world again...

Originally Posted by Voice of Reason: View Post
First world countries shouldn't use them because they are bad. It is not hard to understand...
But its ok for all the other countries you REFUSE to belittle


Quote:
Because the USA is worlds only superpower, or so they keep saying, and militarily very aggressive, and claim to be the defenders of freedom and the worlds police force and all that crap.
The only one that has been saying that here is you over and over and over and over and over and over.

Quote:
Who cares whether Singapore and Eritrea have signed or not? They are small fish, puny little militaries who don't really matter.
I guess the cluster bombs cant be that bad then if you REFUSE to have all he countries remove them. I thought cluster bombs were this big danger to the world.

Never Forget

September 11, 2001
#62  
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Posts: 1375/1382
(16-Jun-2008 at 01:58)


Re: Cluster Bomb Treaty: USA is out of step with the world again...

Originally Posted by Invictus2001: View Post
I guess the cluster bombs cant be that bad then if you REFUSE to have all he countries remove them. I thought cluster bombs were this big danger to the world.
it is, its just how many of those countries that didn't sign are currently active in war and using them???
and if they are which they might cuz i have no clue, im gonna on a totally random shot out of the dark which has nothing to do with anything guess... the US is the country that uses them the most...

The point being the US are the biggest at fault for using them and then not banning them, but only slightly more so at fault than the other governments that didn't...

in the end they are still bad and everyone will eventually because you have too many big name countries that did... and they will if they have any purpose in actually signing that agreement, persuade the countries that haven't banned them, to do so.

I'm 1970's pimp smooth...
#63  
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Posts: 1079/1971
(16-Jun-2008 at 02:07)


Quote:
But its ok for all the other countries you REFUSE to belittle
I find it absolutely mind boggling that anybody still uses this argument... OK, how about I start a thread titled:

"Cluster Bomb Treaty: China is out of step with the world again..."

Nobody would give a shit. I daresay most people here would agree that China usually does immoral things, so to start a debate on it would be absolutely pointless. So why would I or VoR or anybody bother condemning China on a debate forum? Or what if it was titled:

"Cluster Bomb Treaty: Eritrea is out of step with the world again..."

I doubt most people here would even be able to find Eritrea on a map very quickly! So what's the point in condemning them?

We condemn the USA because they are the world's sole superpower as VoR says (and IMO it's true, however unfortunate that is), and supposedly the leader of Western values of democracy, freedom and peace, so we hold them to a higher standard than China which is more or less the leader of human rights abuses.

Tax collectors are a valid military target - chobham
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Posts: 3227/3861
(16-Jun-2008 at 02:27)


Originally Posted by Money Mathews: View Post
it is, its just how many of those countries that didn't sign are currently active in war and using them???
So its ok tohave weapons if you dont use them?

Originally Posted by Spectre19: View Post
"Cluster Bomb Treaty: China is out of step with the world again..."

Nobody would give a shit. I daresay most people here would agree that China usually does immoral things, so to start a debate on it would be absolutely pointless. So why would I or VoR or anybody bother condemning China on a debate forum?
I think one needs to remember who started this thread and reflect on that. Also this isnt a debate forum the forum is Respectable General Discussions not Respectable General Debates. The double standards fo a couple have been very clear here and in other "Discussion" threads. Really is kinda pointless to post in this forum again as its just the same mindless shit by the same people.

Never Forget

September 11, 2001
#65  
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Posts: 3947/7006
(16-Jun-2008 at 02:59)


Originally Posted by Invictus2001:
So its ok tohave weapons if you dont use them?
I wouldn't say it was okay. Having them indicates a willingness to use them at some time. It is a lot better than having them and using them though.


Quote:
I thought cluster bombs were this big danger to the world.
Correct. So obviuosly the country with the biggest stockpile, that uses them, and has a record of using them in populated areas, is the biggest danger, right?

People with intelligence deal with the big danger first, and the lesser dangers later. We don't care so much about Eritrea, Singapore, or Cuba because they have relatively small stockpiles and don't attack attack other people.

That is not double-standards, it is common sense based on an assessment of the danger. If the USA had a small stockpile of cluster bombs and never used them we wouldn't be so bothered whether they signed or not, but that is not the case - and you can blame only the USA for that.


Originally Posted by M1:
You're being entirely hypocritical by whining about the US not doing something that your country won't do.
I think you are very confused. My country is getting rid of cluster bombs, your country isn't.


Originally Posted by Spectre19:
I find it absolutely mind boggling that anybody still uses this argument...
Have some sympathy. After all these pages nobody has made a sensible reason to retain cluster bombs, so he is resorting to a tactic of desperation. It is logical nonsense though. The right and wrong of US actions is not affected by the actions of other countries. It is basically the same tactic used by children in the playground when they point to another child and say "He did it too!"

What I find mind boggling is how often it crops up, and why the people who resort to this don't stop and wonder why they are being forced to justify their countries actions by comparing themselves with countries such as North Korea, Syria, Pakistan or Uzbekistan. Being in such country should ring alarm bells, but obviously it doesn't.

"Patriotism is the last refuge of a scoundrel." But let it be considered that he did not mean a real and generous love of our country, but that pretended patriotism which so many, in all ages and countries, have made a cloak of self- interest.
#66  
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(16-Jun-2008 at 03:04)


Re: Cluster Bomb Treaty: USA is out of step with the world again...

Originally Posted by Spectre19: View Post
We condemn the USA because they are the world's sole superpower as VoR says (and IMO it's true, however unfortunate that is), and supposedly the leader of Western values of democracy, freedom and peace, so we hold them to a higher standard than China which is more or less the leader of human rights abuses.
So in other words, since many countries are INCAPBLE of deploying a weapon, it should be banned and the US should be leading that ban despite the fact that many other countries CAPABLE of using said weapon wouldn't be bound to the same agreement.

Why aren't you equally supportive of the global efforts to enforce the non-Nuclear proliferation treaty?

I understand the desire of the global community to ensure that use of massively destructive weapons isn't expanded expanded. Why aren't you? You dismiss the entire world communities concerns about allowing Iran to increase and enhance their nuclear capabilities while at the same time denouncing something so less destructive as 'cluster bombs', which in the case of the US at least, has never been used to 'target' civilians.

It's as if you trust theocracies more than democracies. It's as if you want to force democracies to emasculate themselves compared to autocracies, DAMNED the consequences.

Why don't you just call on the US, UK, France, Germany, and India to ban nuclear weapons, and thus destroy all of theirs? That would teach those Russians, Chinese, North Koreans, and Pakistanis!

Being an ignoramus is seemingly 'in' these days. Thankfully not everyone feels the need to be popular, but rather prudent.

Man is the only animal that blushes, or needs to.-- Mark Twain
#67  
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Posts: 1080/1971
(16-Jun-2008 at 03:30)


Quote:
So in other words, since many countries are INCAPBLE of deploying a weapon, it should be banned and the US should be leading that ban despite the fact that many other countries CAPABLE of using said weapon wouldn't be bound to the same agreement.
Capability has nothing to do with it. It should be banned because it is a shotgun-style weapon that takes out many civilians in the hope that there might be some enemies in there somewhere.

Also, nobody is saying China or anybody else should be exempt from signing it, but rather that it is disgusting that the US refuses to sign it but expected that China or Russia would not.

Quote:
Why aren't you equally supportive of the global efforts to enforce the non-Nuclear proliferation treaty?
I am, but it's not really worthy of discussion so nobody brings it up on these boards.

Quote:
I understand the desire of the global community to ensure that use of massively destructive weapons isn't expanded expanded. Why aren't you? You dismiss the entire world communities concerns about allowing Iran to increase and enhance their nuclear capabilities while at the same time denouncing something so less destructive as 'cluster bombs', which in the case of the US at least, has never been used to 'target' civilians.

It's as if you trust theocracies more than democracies. It's as if you want to force democracies to emasculate themselves compared to autocracies, DAMNED the consequences.

Why don't you just call on the US, UK, France, Germany, and India to ban nuclear weapons, and thus destroy all of theirs? That would teach those Russians, Chinese, North Koreans, and Pakistanis!
IRAN IS NOT DEVELOPING NUCLEAR WEAPONS. There is very little evidence to suggest they are. In addition, nuclear weapons - in any nation's hands so long as they keep them secure (so not the US or Russia ) - aren't that dangerous since there is almost no chance they would ever actually be used.

Quote:
Being an ignoramus is seemingly 'in' these days. Thankfully not everyone feels the need to be popular, but rather prudent.
I love how you always accuse others of making personal attacks, and then pull shit like this out.

But anyway... thankfully not everyone feels the need to believe the rhetoric of people as inept as George W Bush, but rather actually look at evidence (or lack thereof) to form an opinion

Tax collectors are a valid military target - chobham
#68  
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Posts: 3080/3983
(16-Jun-2008 at 04:45)


Originally Posted by Michael1:
Why aren't you equally supportive of the global efforts to enforce the non-Nuclear proliferation treaty?
Actually many of us do support the snforcement of the Nuclear Proliferation Treaty. The problem is that many people do not actually know what it is, and assume it excludes nations from pursuing nuclear fuel enrichment, and nuclear power. It does not restrict either of these but does restrict the creatuion of Nuclear weapons, and restricts the help of NPT signatory nations to non signatory nations.

Quote:
I understand the desire of the global community to ensure that use of massively destructive weapons isn't expanded expanded. Why aren't you?
Saying and insisting a nation is in pursuit of nuclear weapons, when they are subject to inspections and monitoring by the IAEA, while at the same time supporting non NPT nations's nuclear programs; like Pakistan, India, and Israel; does not render support for the NPT, instead it destroys the ability of the NPT to be taken seriously as a international Treaty.

That said, much of the current fear about nuclear weapon technology is misfocused. Pakistan has been accused of selling nuclear secrets to other countries, Israel gathered much of it's nuclear secrets through spying on allies, and by allying with S Africa's apartheid regime in developing a nuclear program. Meanwhile fear and apprehension has been placed on a nation that has no evidence of nuclear weaponry, or a weapons program.

There are many other nations that should be feared more than Iran at the moment.

Quote:
You dismiss the entire world communities concerns about allowing Iran to increase and enhance their nuclear capabilities while at the same time denouncing something so less destructive as 'cluster bombs', which in the case of the US at least, has never been used to 'target' civilians.
No one is allowing Iran to increase it's nuclear capablities, we are allowing it to expad it's nuclear technology, while providing strict monitoring and regulation of it's enrichment process so we can tell if they do begin a weapons program.

Stating that because nuclear weapons is far more destructive, and the control over them is seemingly transitory (? ) so we should not consider trying to outlaw lesser means of killing citizenry, ignores that these are two separate issues.

Quote:
t's as if you trust theocracies more than democracies. It's as if you want to force democracies to emasculate themselves compared to autocracies, DAMNED the consequences.
When the theocracy in question (Iran) does not have a nuclear weapon, but there are larger stockpiles of nukes in the borders of nations that are home to a large number of extremists (Palistan, India and Israel) I would consider the sensible steps would be to try to get regulatory bodies to inspect and monitor the nuclear states, rather than threaten the non nuclear one with attacks.

Do we trust Iran? Emphatically not, but we have assured through the NPT it has the right to pursue nuclear energy and enrichment processes while we have the right to monitor and inspect all relevant nuclear facilities.

Quote:
Being an ignoramus is seemingly 'in' these days. Thankfully not everyone feels the need to be popular, but rather prudent.
So, what evidence has been uncovered proving that Iran is trying to develop a nuke?

“The law, in its majestic equality, forbids the rich as well as the poor to sleep under bridges, to beg in the streets, and to steal bread.”
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Posts: 3228/3861
(16-Jun-2008 at 05:43)


Re: Cluster Bomb Treaty: USA is out of step with the world again...

Originally Posted by Spectre19: View Post
Capability has nothing to do with it. It should be banned because it is a shotgun-style weapon that takes out many civilians in the hope that there might be some enemies in there somewhere.
Yup these weapons are lobbed into crowded market places hoping for a few bad guys. Your starting to sound like vor

Quote:
Also, nobody is saying China or anybody else should be exempt from signing it, but rather that it is disgusting that the US refuses to sign it but expected that China or Russia would not.
who is expecting china or russia to sign it yet oking USA not to? Seems to me reading posts people expect the USA to sign it and allowing others not to.


Quote:
I am, but it's not really worthy of discussion so nobody brings it up on these boards.
Yes no nukes isnt a worth topic


Quote:
IRAN IS NOT DEVELOPING NUCLEAR WEAPONS. There is very little evidence to suggest they are.

But anyway... thankfully not everyone feels the need to believe the rhetoric of people as inept as George W Bush, but rather actually look at evidence (or lack thereof) to form an opinion

You mean like you?

http://www.cnn.com/2008/US/06/15/nuc....ap/index.html

Quote:
An international smuggling ring may have secretly shared blueprints for an advanced nuclear weapon with Iran, North Korea and other rogue countries, The Washington Post reported Sunday.
Yup Washington post a well known righty newspaper

Quote:
The now-defunct ring led by Pakistani scientist Abdul Qadeer Khan is previously known to have sold bomb-related parts to Libya, Iran and North Korea.
Previously known to have sold bomb parts????

Quote:
A draft report by former top U.N. arms inspector David Albright says the smugglers also acquired designs for building a more sophisticated compact nuclear device that could be fitted on a type of ballistic missile used by Iran and other developing countries, according to the Post.
Wow even the almighty UN....

Quote:
In Vienna, a senior diplomat said the IAEA had knowledge of the existence of a sophisticated nuclear weapons design being peddled electronically by the black-market ring as far back as 2005.
As far back as 2005 eh?

Never Forget

September 11, 2001
#70  
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Posts: 3950/7006
(16-Jun-2008 at 07:16)


Originally Posted by M1:
So in other words, since many countries are INCAPBLE of deploying a weapon, it should be banned and the US should be leading that ban despite the fact that many other countries CAPABLE of using said weapon wouldn't be bound to the same agreement.
This whole 'other idiots do it so we have to be idiots too' argument is a farce. Other people murder: does that mean it should be made legal so you can do it too? Other people drink-and-drive: should that be made legal so you can do it too?

If the only way you can judge right and wrong is by comparing yourself to others, then you are in a really sad state.


Quote:
You dismiss the entire world communities concerns about allowing Iran to increase and enhance their nuclear capabilities while at the same time denouncing something so less destructive as 'cluster bombs'
Since when has a nuclear reactor been a more destructive weapon than a cluster bomb?


Quote:
It's as if you trust theocracies more than democracies. It's as if you want to force democracies to emasculate themselves compared to autocracies, DAMNED the consequences.
It is more as though some of us have matured beyond the childish 'all democracies are good, all theocracies are bad' mantra, and judge others by what they do rather than what they are.


Quote:
Being an ignoramus is seemingly 'in' these days. Thankfully not everyone feels the need to be popular, but rather prudent.
What are you suggesting? That the US military is incapable of fighting a war without using cluster bombs? As the the UK, French, German, Italian, Canadian, Australian, etc, etc are capable of doing that, I would suggest that your military must be petty incompetent. Maybe you should send them all to us to learn some more up-to-date, civilian-friendly, methods.


Originally Posted by Invictus2001:
Yup these weapons are lobbed into crowded market places hoping for a few bad guys. Your starting to sound like vor
You are right, that is exactly what they do, and I have already provided the links that prove it. As you are one of those people who think that the height of mature debate is to simply ignore all evidence to the contrary and just keep repeating the same old shit that has been knocked down a hundred times already, I am not going to bother providing the link again. You are worth it.


Quote:
Seems to me reading posts people expect the USA to sign it and allowing others not to.
You have a problem you need to deal with then.

Still, if you want us all to view the USA as being on the same level as China, Russia, Israel, or Pakistan I am sure we can accommodate your wish.

"Patriotism is the last refuge of a scoundrel." But let it be considered that he did not mean a real and generous love of our country, but that pretended patriotism which so many, in all ages and countries, have made a cloak of self- interest.
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(16-Jun-2008 at 11:35)


I have issues with this... oh, we cant use this weapon because its not very nice. I cant understand being careful to avoid civi casulaties... but as Winston Churchill said after testing Anthrax as a bioligical weapon

"Why should the Devil have all the best weapons?"

http://thiscrazyworld-flair.blogspot.com/ - Not a lame blog, a comedy outlook on topical issues.
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(16-Jun-2008 at 11:45)


Re: Cluster Bomb Treaty: USA is out of step with the world again...

Originally Posted by Flair: View Post
I have issues with this... oh, we cant use this weapon because its not very nice. I cant understand being careful to avoid civi casulaties... but as Winston Churchill said after testing Anthrax as a bioligical weapon

"Why should the Devil have all the best weapons?"
Then again, Churchill is a known butcher, having used nerve gas on upstart Arabs in the 1920s. No-one ever accused him of a moral conscience.

The Geneva Conventions and the outcries against mass murder and the slaughter of innocents hints at moral progress, at least from the public's point of view. Unfortunately, those in power still operate along the moral guidelines set by Genghis Khan. But that doesn't mean we have to stop questioning or condemning them, does it?

"Observers worldwide have been expressing great pity for the people of Gaza [...] This pity may be a natural emotional reaction, yet it is unethical and immoral." - Adi Dvir, Ynetnews editor
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Posts: 3952/7006
(16-Jun-2008 at 11:49)


Quote:
I have issues with this... oh, we cant use this weapon because its not very nice. I cant understand being careful to avoid civi casulaties... but as Winston Churchill said after testing Anthrax as a bioligical weapon

"Why should the Devil have all the best weapons?"
If you could give a convincing reason why a cluster-bomb was the best weapon you might have a point, but I asked in the opening post if there were any good reasons not to have cluster-bombs and all I have seen is a bunch of people arguing that "somebody else has them so we want them too!"

"Patriotism is the last refuge of a scoundrel." But let it be considered that he did not mean a real and generous love of our country, but that pretended patriotism which so many, in all ages and countries, have made a cloak of self- interest.
#74  
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Posts: 7627/8194
(16-Jun-2008 at 12:05)
Re: Cluster Bomb Treaty: USA is out of step with the world again...

Originally Posted by Michael1: View Post
Why aren't you equally supportive of the global efforts to enforce the non-Nuclear proliferation treaty?
Are you yourself supportive of efforts to enforce the NPT, and are you in that case willing to condemn your own nation for refusing to do so?
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