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Posts: 136/293
(20-Nov-2005 at 23:46)


Why is evolution wrong?

I am SOOO anoyed at people lack of knowledge of how science works!!

OK so you are going to knock science(and in spercific evolution) AT LEAST GET YOUR FACTS right.

the problem is i feel som dumb americans* and others are so blinded by thier ideas that they wont see a true fact in front of them.

This ALSO applies to the "Pro-science"# lobby that thed to answer back.

SO GO ON PROVE ME WRONG!

*note the is not an insult at smart or even averagely educated americans
#mostly anti-christern athiests

if our labourers party is called Labour, the most conserivtive party are called Conserivitives, and the liberal party called the Liberal Domocrats why aren't the BNP called the English Racist Party.
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(20-Nov-2005 at 23:53)
so just Americans prove in evolution? well...you are wrong..not too hard to prove either
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(21-Nov-2005 at 00:00)


Quote:
so just Americans prove in evolution?
you mean belive?
note i said
Quote:
and others
but it does tend to be faanticly blinded americans that post the type of post that PISSES me off due to thier psyeado facts.

Quote:
not too hard to prove either
PROOF!!! dont get me started!!

if our labourers party is called Labour, the most conserivtive party are called Conserivitives, and the liberal party called the Liberal Domocrats why aren't the BNP called the English Racist Party.
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(21-Nov-2005 at 00:42)


This belongs in RD.

Quote:
PROOF!!! dont get me started!!
When evolutionists finally settle on an absolute proof, they may have an easier time of convincing people. At this stage, theories change every few years indicating what? That they were incorrect the first time. And I believe the theory of evolution has changed radically over the past 50 years and it will continue to change simply because it's not an observational science. All we have is what we have in the present.

There's a whole literature on creationism proving it from a scientific point of view, backed up by a small group of scientists.

You'll also find, which I have in my econometrics courses, that believers aren't uneducated. In things like econometrics, mathematicians see God through numbers in a kind of perfect order and symmetry.

Some good links on creationism.

http://www.answersincreation.org/old.htm

http://www.answersingenesis.org/

And there's alot more. Answers in Genesis is probably the most well known one, but I included Answers in Creation because it did include the Gap theory etc.

Here is a good link to why Christians discard rock dating, and there's an extra good link about the flood, which I'll find shortly.

Ok found them. Here and here

Just because the average 'ignorant American' doesn't know how to explain their belief, doesn't mean that they don't know the truth or that they are 'unenlightened'. If I asked you to explain for me the basics of quantum theory and the way that quantum foam behaves, I highly doubt you could give me a satisfactory answer. This doesn't prove that you're unintelligent, rather that you aren't read up on that subject.

Where has my avatar gone?

The true meaning of silence

Last edited by Gus Mackay, 21-Nov-2005 at 00:45.
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(21-Nov-2005 at 01:23)


OK.
this is what i mean.

Quote:
When evolutionists finally settle on an absolute proof, they may have an easier time of convincing people. At this stage, theories change every few years indicating what? That they were incorrect the first time.
You just dont understand science.
1)you ask a question
2)you find a IDEA of how it works.
3)you test the idea againt observeible everdence.
4)OTHERS attempt to PROVE YOU WRONG.
number 4 is esentual!! this is what makes an idea a theory.
an UNDISPROVABLE idea, not a PROVABLE idea.

In time BITS of the idea will be disproved, reanalyised, rethought, retested, reUNdefeated and placed as the current accepted theory section.

THIS is what makes a true scientist, not that he is right, but he may be wrong!

the ID lot think they are right, the truth is they at best are at step 2. at worst are at step four of ET.

Spouters of Evolution speak on naturel selection but the forget the other important point of evolution, MUTATION.

Many pro and anti ET(evolution-theroy) people forget this or more importantly plain DONT know about.

YOU are not like your parents, with an average of 2 mutations YOU are a mutant.

Without mutation evolution WONT WORK.
genes have EVOLVED to mutate, maybe it took millions of years before it happened but mutation beats non-mutation hands down.
This is why we die. 99.9% of mutation is wastful and degrading but that small preportion make the difference.

if our labourers party is called Labour, the most conserivtive party are called Conserivitives, and the liberal party called the Liberal Domocrats why aren't the BNP called the English Racist Party.
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(21-Nov-2005 at 02:09)




You described a theory, not science.

Also - ID Christians also generally believe in present day evolution. And if the ID people are correct, that doesn't make them ignorant, that just makes the right.

Where has my avatar gone?

The true meaning of silence

Last edited by Gus Mackay, 21-Nov-2005 at 02:13.
Edit reason: Stupid smiley won't smile.
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(21-Nov-2005 at 02:28)


I hardly think that the concept that evolution exists is really up for debate. If you think that Christians (or any religion) doesn't believe in evolution, then you perhaps need to spend more time looking at the beliefs.

However, what I do NOT believe is that we humans evolved from apes or monkies or whatever. I could go into detail about all the reasons for this belief, but quite frankly, I say what's the point? Your posts are angry and vehement, and you really don't seem like you're open for intelligent discussion on this topic. I'm not saying you aren't intelligent, I have no way to know if you are or not. You just seem to have your mind set, so I won't waste finger strength (lol) trying to beat something into your head!

WTS. First non-enlgish, then size. It's a good thing you don't get wp for sucking at sig-making. Give me another week and I'll figure it out.
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(21-Nov-2005 at 02:31)


Quote:
(Originally posted by Gus Mackay)
When evolutionists finally settle on an absolute proof, they may have an easier time of convincing people. At this stage, theories change every few years indicating what? That they were incorrect the first time.
The theory of evolution will never settle on an absolute proof of its correctness. That's not how it works. I swear, no matter how many times people here have explained the scientific method to you, you just never get it.

First people observe something. Like, say, an apple falling from a tree. Then people come up with an idea of why it does that. Then they test that idea. If evidence supports the idea it becomes more credible. Does that mean it's right? Of course not, it just means it's the best explanation we have.

The theory of evolution is not a proven fact nor will it ever be. It is simply the best explanation we have of the origin of species. It has continually changed since it was first introduced and will continue to change as we keep testing it. Scientific explanations start out as incorrect, but progressively become more and more likely to be correct.

I agree with you that the theory of evolution was incorrect the first time it was conceived. The same with the second, third, fourth, seventeenth, twenty-second, and the fifty-sixth time it was conceived. It is continually changing, improving and becoming more refined. There is no logical or scientific reason to deny that speciation occurs at present. Unless you go back and somehow prove all the theories, experiments and evidence that have been gathered about gentics, natural selection, and radioactivity since 1856 are nonsense, you don't have a leg to stand on declaring it all to be rubbish as you so often do.

Quote:
(Originally posted by Gus Mackay)
And I believe the theory of evolution has changed radically over the past 50 years and it will continue to change simply because it's not an observational science. All we have is what we have in the present.
So? Creationism isn't observable either! This is just as good an argument against your own beliefs as they are to evolution.

Quote:
(Originally posted by Gus Mackay)
There's a whole literature on creationism proving it from a scientific point of view, backed up by a small group of scientists.
There's a whole literature on evolution proving it from a scientific point of view, backed up by a large group of scientists.

Quote:
(Originally posted by Gus Mackay)
You'll also find, which I have in my econometrics courses, that believers aren't uneducated. In things like econometrics, mathematicians see God through numbers in a kind of perfect order and symmetry.
The human brain excels at pattern recognition. Unfortunately, it is often finding patterns which aren't there to begin with.

Quote:
(Originally posted by Mizeraaze)
However, what I do NOT believe is that we humans evolved from apes or monkies or whatever.
Good! Because modern evolutionary theory has never, ever claimed humans evolved from any apes or monkies. That's just silly.

(\ /)
( . .)
c('')('')

Last edited by MAPS, 21-Nov-2005 at 02:38.
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(21-Nov-2005 at 04:16)
Quote:
(Originally posted by Gus Mackay)

This belongs in RD.



When evolutionists finally settle on an absolute proof, they may have an easier time of convincing people. At this stage, theories change every few years indicating what? That they were incorrect the first time. And I believe the theory of evolution has changed radically over the past 50 years and it will continue to change simply because it's not an observational science. All we have is what we have in the present.
First, people thought the earth was flat, then they thought it was round. God, that theory keeps changing! It must be false.

All what you said is illogical and irrational mumbo jumbo. You haven't proven a single thing, haven't brought forward a single logically acceptable argument. You are just bringing forth false sophisms.
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(Post has been warned)
(21-Nov-2005 at 04:22)


Quote:
First, people thought the earth was flat, then they thought it was round. God, that theory keeps changing! It must be false
you are right, the world is disc-shaped and it is resting on the backs of 4 gigantic elephants who in turn are standing on the back of an enormous turtle. TerryPratchettism.
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(21-Nov-2005 at 04:36)


Quote:
(Originally posted by Gus Mackay)



You described a theory, not science.

Also - ID Christians also generally believe in present day evolution. And if the ID people are correct, that doesn't make them ignorant, that just makes the right.
Can you not read Bernal has posted the scientific defition of theory several times in threads I know you posted after.

The only reason evolution is not a law is because it answers why not what.

If you are going to say evolution is wrong don't show you wouldn't accept undeniable proof if it was right in front of you.

And two things every human averages 4 gene mutations (minor point) and you have 3 mutations on average every cell. Unless I did the math totally wrong. (3 billion base pairs 1/1 billion chance of a mutation)

"There are only 2 things that are infinite - the universe, and human stupidity, and I am not sure of the former."-Albert Einstein

Last edited by wswordsmen, 21-Nov-2005 at 04:38.
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(21-Nov-2005 at 08:06)
I've argued with Gus enough times in RD to realize it is a waste of time. he just ignores what you say and repeat the same arguments over and over again. To him the fact that the theory of evolution advances as we learn more is evidence it is false, to me it is evidence it is correct, how science is supposed to work.

Mizeraaze only states a belief that humans didn't evolve from apes without giving any arguments for why he believes so, again no basis for discussion.

Quote:
(Originally posted by MAPS)
Good! Because modern evolutionary theory has never, ever claimed humans evolved from any apes or monkies. That's just silly.
At the contrary, it is exactly what evolution does claim. Well, actually we still are an ape so in that sense we haven't evolved from one.

Claims that we have evolved from the chimpanzee would be wrong, because even if we have a common ancestor not too long ago that ancestor wasn't a chimpanzee any more than it was a human. It was, however, an ape, still closer related to us than to a gorilla or orangutan.
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(21-Nov-2005 at 12:52)


this is something going around the net which i realy like and i feel makes a good point.


Moderator: We're here today to debate the hot new topic, evolution versus Intelligent Des...

(Scientist pulls out baseball bat.)

Moderator: Hey, what are you doing?

(Scientist breaks Intelligent Design advocate's kneecap.)

Intelligent Design advocate: YEAAARRRRGGGHHHH! YOU BROKE MY KNEECAP!

Scientist: Perhaps it only appears that I broke your kneecap. Certainly, all the evidence points to the hypothesis I broke your kneecap. For example, your kneecap is broken; it appears to be a fresh wound; and I am holding a baseball bat, which is spattered with your blood. However, a mere preponderance of evidence doesn't mean anything. Perhaps your kneecap was designed that way. Certainly, there are some features of the current situation that are inexplicable according to the "naturalistic" explanation you have just advanced, such as the exact contours of the excruciating pain that you are experiencing right now.

Intelligent Design advocate: AAAAH! THE PAIN!

Scientist: Frankly, I personally find it completely implausible that the random actions of a scientist such as myself could cause pain of this particular kind. I have no precise explanation for why I find this hypothesis implausible -- it just is. Your knee must have been designed that way!

Intelligent Design advocate: YOU BASTARD! YOU KNOW YOU DID IT!

Scientist: I surely do not. How can we know anything for certain? Frankly, I think we should expose people to all points of view. Furthermore, you should really re-examine whether your hypothesis is scientific at all: the breaking of your kneecap happened in the past, so we can't rewind and run it over again, like a laboratory experiment. Even if we could, it wouldn't prove that I broke your kneecap the previous time. Plus, let's not even get into the fact that the entire universe might have just popped into existence right before I said this sentence, with all the evidence of my alleged kneecap-breaking already pre-formed.

Intelligent Design advocate: That's a load of bullshit sophistry! Get me a doctor and a lawyer, not necessarily in that order, and we'll see how that plays in court!

Scientist (turning to audience): And so we see, ladies and gentlemen, when push comes to shove, advocates of Intelligent Design do not actually believe any of the arguments that they profess to believe. When it comes to matters that hit home, they prefer evidence, the scientific method, testable hypotheses, and naturalistic explanations. In fact, they strongly privilege naturalistic explanations over supernatural hocus-pocus or metaphysical wankery. It is only within the reality-distortion field of their ideological crusade that they give credence to the flimsy, ridiculous arguments which we so commonly see on display. I must confess, it kind of felt good, for once, to be the one spouting free-form bullshit; it's so terribly easy and relaxing, compared to marshaling rigorous arguments backed up by empirical evidence. But I fear that if I were to continue, then it would be habit-forming, and bad for my soul. Therefore, I bid you adieu.

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(21-Nov-2005 at 12:53)


The thing is evolution is just a theory. A theory. It's not a fact.

Too many people treat it as a fact, and that's my major opposition to it.

Quote:
All what you said is illogical and irrational mumbo jumbo. You haven't proven a single thing, haven't brought forward a single logically acceptable argument. You are just bringing forth false sophisms.
Why not actually look at those links I posted for you explaining Christians stance on it, and why Christians don't accept evolution? It's not that evolution necessarily disproves it, since many Christians have more or less merged beliefs of the two.

Quote:
So? Creationism isn't observable either! This is just as good an argument against your own beliefs as they are to evolution.
Aye.

Quote:
If you are going to say evolution is wrong don't show you wouldn't accept undeniable proof if it was right in front of you.
I would. As a non-Christian, I accepted undeniable proof of God because it was right in front of me. And until fairly recently, I was a guided evolutionist.

This thread wasn't created in an effort for discussion. It was created to bash people's beliefs.

Where has my avatar gone?

The true meaning of silence
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(21-Nov-2005 at 12:56)


Quote:
(Originally posted by Gus Mackay)

The thing is evolution is just a theory. A theory. It's not a fact.
By your logic gravity is also just a theory...

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Last edited by Daedalis, 21-Nov-2005 at 12:57.
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(21-Nov-2005 at 13:04)


Quote:
(Originally posted by Gus Mackay)

The thing is evolution is just a theory. A theory. It's not a fact.
Oh my fucking god. Do you even read what other people post? I used to think you actually knew some of what you were discussing, but this certainly changed my view.

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(21-Nov-2005 at 13:08)
Quote:
(Originally posted by Gus Mackay)
Why not actually look at those links I posted for you explaining Christians stance on it, and why Christians don't accept evolution?
Most Christians do accept evolution. Recently from the Vatican:
“Intelligent design isn't science even though it pretends to be,” the ANSA news agency quoted Father Coyne as saying on the sidelines of a conference in Florence. “If you want to teach it in schools, intelligent design should be taught when religion or cultural history is taught, not science.”

Your branch of Young Earth creationism is supported only by a small fraction of Christians.

As you may remember I read an entire book of creationist drivel and wrote a review of it some time ago. You just keep posting the same links to the same stupid arguments.
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(21-Nov-2005 at 13:15)


Quote:
(Originally posted by Gus Mackay)



You described a theory, not science.
I'm sure you've heard this many times before but a theory is science. For it to be a theory there must be scientific evidence through empirical observation supporting it. If it didn't have the backing of scientific evidence it would be considered to be a hypothesis at best or a conjecture like creationism or ID.

Quote:
The thing is evolution is just a theory. A theory. It's not a fact.
In science the only absolute facts are scientific laws. A law is an observation of reality whereas a theory aims to explain such observations. They are two very different things. Newton's Laws of motion are examples of scientific laws whereas Einstein's theory of General Relativity is a theory to explain the effect of gravity.

Saying something is just a theory doesn't make it worthless, on the contrary saying evolution is a theory is a very good validation of it. Evolution is considered to be a very powerful theory. There is no scientific evidence disproving it. If there was it would no longer be considered to be a theory.


Quote:
(Originally posted by MAPS)
Good! Because modern evolutionary theory has never, ever claimed humans evolved from any apes or monkies. That's just silly.
Given the evidence, claiming humans evolved from monkeys would be silly but according to evolution humans evolved from apes, specifically the hominid family which also includes Chimpanzees, Gorillas and Orang Utans.

Last edited by daftbrain, 21-Nov-2005 at 13:18.
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(21-Nov-2005 at 13:42)


Quote:
(Originally posted by Daedalis)

By your logic gravity is also just a theory...
uh... gravity is a theory...w e ca't prove that lil gnomes dont come out an tie our legs to the ground so we dont floa away...

don't u notice we teach "the theory of gravity" thats atleast what my school calls it.

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(21-Nov-2005 at 14:04)


Quote:
(Originally posted by aFool)

uh... gravity is a theory...w e ca't prove that lil gnomes dont come out an tie our legs to the ground so we dont floa away...

don't u notice we teach "the theory of gravity" thats atleast what my school calls it.
Im sorry, maybe i should have been more clear in my post. I quoted Gus when i said that gravity was a theory. I was pointing out to him that gravity was a theory so that maybe he would stop blowing the theory of evolution off as mumbo-jumbo. Fool, please take my posts in context for i am actualy on the side of science.

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