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(User is Banned)
Posts: 153/427
(31-Jan-2003 at 17:11)
Quote:
(Originally posted by Monkey0)

oh, and just to shoot down a couple of arguments, anyone that talks about putting a cow in the ocean to make it get gills is an idiot, whichever side you talk about it from, "forced" evolution is rubbish, and it isn't an argumental thing, the actual arganism doesn't evolve, its the species, the thing is born with the trait it doesn't gain it over it's lifetime. If a cow did accidentally grow gills and live, well after that cow there wouldn't be anymore underwater cows as it would have normal cow babies and they'd drown, unless the same freak thing happened, which if it does, remind me to buy a few scratchies. You're saying the same thing as if a person got his arm cut off he would have one armed babies (while the cow might seem to make more sense, they are still the same thing). Although if something happened to mutate the cow's genetic code (every little bit of dna in every cell) to give it gills then there would be a species of underwater cow.
This is only really possible to happen naturely in a cow that was say.... one cell big, or still a gamete, but then it would be born with gills wouldn't it?
Actually mammals that went back to a water enviroment don't get gills, but usually better lumb capacity, and that can be a real advantage. Even though the animal is dependent of visiting the surfice, the oxigen in the atmosfere is a lot more concentrated then in the water, and most people know what oxigen is used for.

Even if all the expert agreed they might still be wrong.
Blinder then the blind man is the man that does not want to see. Convictions have hurt more the truth then lies.
The supreme victory is to win without doing battle.- Sun Tzu

Live each day as if it was your last. One day you will be right!
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(31-Jan-2003 at 17:15)
I would like to add that I've seen many posts where people "argue" with ignorance, and when they get to a point where they don't know how it could have happened they say it was God.
That's like saying that the Sun is destroyed every night and created every morning, although some people might say that the Earth is round (a round Earth, ridicule! )

Even if all the expert agreed they might still be wrong.
Blinder then the blind man is the man that does not want to see. Convictions have hurt more the truth then lies.
The supreme victory is to win without doing battle.- Sun Tzu

Live each day as if it was your last. One day you will be right!

Last edited by cid12, 31-Jan-2003 at 17:16.
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(31-Jan-2003 at 17:40)


Quote:
(Originally posted by cid12)

I would like to add that I've seen many posts where people "argue" with ignorance, and when they get to a point where they don't know how it could have happened they say it was God.
That's like saying that the Sun is destroyed every night and created every morning, although some people might say that the Earth is round (a round Earth, ridicule! )
THere is alot of arguments from 'personal incredulity' eg i cant see how this would work or that seems highly unlikely or this is to improbable etc. As they cant comprehend/understand/dontevenknow the science they assume it to be wrong. THey think that people who study the subject of evolution are biased towards it so when the people who know the most about it say that all evidence backs it up and that these problems are explained by this they dont believe them. They think that the experts on the topic are wrong and the people with highshool education or even college education are right. Why does this seem wrong to me? Surely the experts know best? you dont think you know better than your doctor on the best treatment for you do you? nobody thinks that as they have done GCSE Physics they can make a better rocket than a professional rocket scientist. But with evolution, of course those who study it, the experts, are wrong and lying to us about the facts. Of course they are. if evolution was so impossible why do those who know the subject so much better and are smarter than anyone else here think that in fact it isnt impossible and is in fact what did happen? Do you think you know better than them?

-:knowledge is meerly a degree of how strongly you belive something, if you know something then you believe it to be true beyond all doubt:-
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(31-Jan-2003 at 18:01)
I must agree with Enderwig, for many many years the Earth was flat, the stars spots in the sky and the moon mado of cheese ( nhum! ); why was it??
Because man did not know better and simply assumed those things and because God or some other powerfull entity said so!

Just because people do not have the knowledge or evidences does not make God responsible, I remember when I left my shoe under the tree and got out because Santa was shy, and my parents stayed behind to close the door, and when the presents appeared... IT WAS SANTA!!!
I even remember once when I picked but thought that Santa had not passed by yet because it was dark and I did not see the presents, and looked a bit later and saw the presents!

So hearing something falling and finding your father in the floor (he did not hurt himself!) with a foot still caught in the window might mean something else either then he wanted to spy on Santa!

So if something happens you might try to find out how, based on real observable documentable things or you can assume that it was some guy that flys the world in a flying rain-dear slade!!

Ho! Ho! Ho!

Even if all the expert agreed they might still be wrong.
Blinder then the blind man is the man that does not want to see. Convictions have hurt more the truth then lies.
The supreme victory is to win without doing battle.- Sun Tzu

Live each day as if it was your last. One day you will be right!
#1664  
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(01-Feb-2003 at 01:41)


Quote:
(Originally posted by PopNFresh)
I am rather surprised to see people who believe in science as strong as they do...if you do then you will know this:

a law is 'a certainty' and there is a law about cell reproduction:

a living cell can only be produced by another living cell.

with this said I can single-handedly disprove any "whim" (because it is to premature and shallow minded to call anything else) that we evolved from something much less complex than ourselves.
Yet, laws only apply on the current earth on our current conditions, climates, etc. Simple molecules like ATP, amino acids, lactic acids, etc. have been formed. All they would need to do is chemically react to eachother into coacetutate drops, and then so on. A simple explanation of this can be said that God guided evolution. Yet, I see you have the view that all evolutionists are atheists.
Quote:
this rules out big bang, evolution, the whole lot...unless you say "there must be an exception" and ahhhh, you have a point...what is there is an 'exception' what if there is a one flaw in this 'certainty' of cell reproducion, if this one thing, this one small flaw completely negates any credibility that science ever had.....a law that cannot be true...because saying we evolved goes much deeper than just if we came from fish, but where did the fish come from? I know there is some idiot out there thinking 'from single celled organisms' (and if your that idiot, please do the world a favor, and contemplate your importance in society and when you realize you have none, then stop waisting oxygen) but of course after that comes the question 'where did the organisms come from?' well that's the stumper, they couldn't come from anything but themselves, ultimately proving that every principal we base our scientific 'knowledge' (if you believe it could really be described as knowledge rather than brief facination to help simple minded people cope with what they don't understand) on could, and probably is flawed, just like the law of cell reproducion.
Question- Did you pass biology class? Seriously, it seems you don't have much knowledge in that area. And, your close-mindedness seems odd.

First off, how is it single celled organisms couldn't have come from single celled organisms in the process of natural selection and evolution? Second, the cell theory isn't flawed. It's just only applicable under current conditions of observation.
Quote:
i guess now is the part where everyone who disagrees with me reallizes they are wrong, but their deep defensive entities won't admit it, and attempt to argue their point in a futile attampt to regain their dignity...
Stop with the superiorirty complex and realize you're not all-knowing. You may be right, yet I may be right. We also may both be wrong. No one can really prove it. Yet, why don't you try to make an actual arguement instead of basing it on the principals that you're right and everyone else is flawed.
Quote:
2. I know that gravity comes with mass and what that other dude said, but where did mass come from? it couldnt have just popped out of knowwhere and started making things big or small (dont argue on this i just cant explain what im trying to say in words...i know mass doesnt make things big or small, its just a form of well...mass... there aint no other word for it unless i get a thesaurus..)... scientists will no doubt get an answer for this, but the thing which makes mass exist will also have needed to be created by something... after millions of years they will go so far and come to a point where the thing which created the thing before has no possible physical way of coming into existence itself....after that gods whats left
A general explanation of the big bang:
1) Random energies of the universe were sparked
2) They "energized" into a small, condensed mass
3) That mass "energized" again and expanded (with all of the energies in the universe I would imagine that it would be at a high exponential rate with a a lot of density)
4) Along with the mass (now by reffered to as matter), came anti-matter, or "dark-matter". Both negate eachother, so when they came into existance, they "fought". This is where radioactive energies and disturbances are said to come from.
5) In the end, matter won because more was produced. This explains why the universe isn't exactly full of matter.

The main hole in this is where the nergy came from and what sparked the energy. This is where I as a theistic evolutionist insert God.
Quote:
3. I know u say i would evolve in the ocean etc by starting out coming to the surface to breathe, but i would have to expierience the underwater breathing sheme to make my body evolve.... and any man or woman that did that for a couple of seconds (tried to breathe under water) would die... and we wouldnt get fins or something eventually because of all the swimming anyway, simply because i wouldnt be able to survive the water in terms of food without any tools, and i dont recall fish or amphibians had any tools when they supposedly evolved... what did they do, flop onto the shore, and start swatting insects with their fins for nutrition, and attempted surface breathing? nope. More likely they just flopped on, dried up, suffocated, and left some baby fish to try again later with the same effects...they couldnt have evolved in the water to prepare for the surface, they didnt know what was out there, they cant force their bodies to evolve... id probably get eaten by a shark or something.... and dont suggest forced evolution in a pool because there isnt any food there naturally, and someone would have to feed me or give me food.... no one did that for fish... and i would have to get out after a while or i would freeze to death, or otherwise i cant sleep under water( i would also get tired from all the arm flapping in a bid to stay afloat, the ocean is deep and the pool would have to be since i was trying to simulate the ocean... this negates the evolution of fins or natural swimming aid as well since i would burn out all my energy, and if i didnt sink, i would have stif or worn out limbs eventually, forcing that fate upon me)... i wouldnt be able to breed in the water to continue the supposed evolution since it takes every living thing a long time (and humans 9 months) to reproduce, and both partners would have succumbed to that fate of sinking etc i metioned above without outside aid.... and outside aid would be unnacceptable, simply because the creatures before didnt have any, and thus they wouldve died quickly and evolution could not have taken place.... maybe it can nowadays, since gods world is already up and running and successful, but back then it sure didnt (in my belief). And anyway, i dont think christianity, islam, etc states that evolution isnt allowed to be believed in, or it cant happen, it just says that it didnt happen back yonder....cos that was all gods work...etc (sorry, but I have a 10,000 character limit)
Question- have you actually studied evolution before?

First off, evolution only happens under circumstances of mutations and adaptations in accordance with natural selection. The fish just didn't go on land and stard breathing. Eventually, a fish was mutated that had the ability to breathe on land. An example of this today is the lungfish. It was advantageous and allowed them to occupy more niches, giving more resources and increasing their reproductive fitness level. More mutations occured and occured. Good ones were enhanced in natural selection and bad ones were wiped out. A key note here is that mutations are RANDOM. Sometimes it takes hundereds of thousands of years to have one beneficial one. Why is that so hard to believe? We have fossil records to back it up along with observed processes of mico-evolution. Other descrepincies in this can be explained that God guided it, yet I'm, sure you wouldn't want to hear that.
Quote:
4. Any and all who were forced or attempted to evolve WOULD DIE BEFORE THEY COULD CONTINUE THEIR FAMILY thus it cannot happen (explained above in water examples....)
Ummm, no. An evolution is any beneficial change in gene frequenices. Note the word beneficial. Beneficial thereby inhances reproductive fitness of an organism, allowing it to reproduce more. Since it is a change in the gene pool, it can pass that characteristic down to future generations.
Quote:
5. dont get me wrong already, when i said god didnt nurture us and , i just meant that he didnt look after us. He gave us the power of choice, and we can use that power to live how we want, do wat we want, and worship him or defy him, and after the acceptable point of creation and survival, he let life flow on without his aid... (if it didnt he wouldnt let animals get extinct etc but then again, thats mainly our fault... poaching etc.. and ive explained about our choice gift etc)
Not necessarily. Animals go extinct all the time. Natural disasters or changes in enviroment change the natural habitat, creating basic chaos. The niches of many organisms have changed, and necessary resources are gone. All the while, new organisms have adapted to the change and survive while the others die out.
Quote:
6. well thats about it.... maybe in the future scientists will force evolution under monitored conditions....but until then, im not going to believe in the theory ,but the only thing im completely against is evolution starting life, because of my reasons thus far, and my faith in god. I am willing to believe that it can happen, but in the future under monitored conditions only, not back then when all living things supposedly adapted without any aid under horrific circumstances.
Well, why can't they adapt? And why can't evolution co-exist with faith in God? At least I know it may. It's what I believe.

In brightest day, in blackest night, No evil shall escape my sight.
Let those who worship evil's might, Beware my power, Green Lantern's Light
Slave of Justara
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#1665  
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(01-Feb-2003 at 01:52)
ok to clear a few things up..... monkey0, i know goddammiit that evolution happens over many generations. Its the fact that i wouldnt survive long enough to breed that i wouldnt be able to evolve (by saying I, i mean my descandants eventually ....)... ok?

and finally, yes the experts might be wrong. Just cos they have studied it in all kinds of detail and etc doesnt mean they know everything. Heck, even doctors who go to uni for 15 years and are specialised in all kinds of medical procedure cant do everything right. In fact, they cant do most things right. Cancer, surgery, etc heaps of it goes wrong. And youre forgetting that the man who created the theory of evolution, probably the one who new most about it since it was his idea, ADMITTED HE WAS WRONG IN HIS DIARY, WHICH WAS FOUND AFTER HE DIED. According to you, he would qualify as an expert (well he made the theory it wouldnt exist if not for him), and yet, he admitted he was wrong, but atheists foolishly continue to believe his words. sure shows how much you believe in the "experts", when darwin himself admitted his error. its ironic, you still continue to support the theory even though the original "expert" does not. So to sum it up, u said the expert was right, he said he was wrong. STUPID! According to your logic, the expert knows better than anybody. looks like the "expert" does! looks like the "expert" has betrayed you

on the other hand, the original founders of religion have not changed, are true to their word, and have not forsaken their beliefs when they stared death in the face. Not to mention they teach u a much better way of living and morals than science does, and have almost all 6 billion people on this planet on their side. You say that faithfuls are ignorant, then wat is continuing believing something that the founder of the theory of evolution rejected himself called?
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(01-Feb-2003 at 02:02)


Supported.

It matters not whehter or not Darwin rejected his own theory. Do you know why he did it? Because of pressure from the church. Thank God (yes, I'm Christian so I get to say it) Galelio didn't do the same, or we'd still probably be in the Renaissance. This is why I don't condone organized religion.

In brightest day, in blackest night, No evil shall escape my sight.
Let those who worship evil's might, Beware my power, Green Lantern's Light
Slave of Justara
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#1667  
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(01-Feb-2003 at 02:18)


Quote:
(Originally posted by AznBlade)

Supported.

It matters not whehter or not Darwin rejected his own theory. Do you know why he did it? Because of pressure from the church. Thank God (yes, I'm Christian so I get to say it) Galelio didn't do the same, or we'd still probably be in the Renaissance. This is why I don't condone organized religion.
and how would you support your argument?

s o u l f i r e
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(01-Feb-2003 at 05:03)
Actually that was kinda my point, Evolution has it's flaw, we just can't explain them yet but i think that discrediting it completely because of a couple of things that don't work doesn't make sense, apparently things like gravity break down if you go back to the big bang (sorry i have to go back here, it's an example) but it works now doesn't it? We don't throw out the entire idea as it doesn't quite work exactly at it's beginings, we work on it and find an answer. Till then, whats the difference saying, god did it and it spontaneously happened, both aren't scientific, but i'd prefer the god thing, just in case it's true i'm covering my back.
And the cow thing was someone elses example.
#1669  
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(01-Feb-2003 at 05:26)
Quote:
(Originally posted by ademir)

ADMITTED HE WAS WRONG IN HIS DIARY, WHICH WAS FOUND AFTER HE DIED.
How many times do i need to show that this is a lie?
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(01-Feb-2003 at 06:36)
ITS IS NOT A LIE. I FOUND THE INFORMATION IN ONE OF THE BOOKS AT MY PUBLIC DIARY.

On a lighter note, galileo did give in from pressure, so that he wouldnt get executed, but people shortly after realised that he was right and they were wrong

(i have nothing against galileos information, it is true and not frowned at by my religion, its fact, not theory )
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(01-Feb-2003 at 06:38)
woops i meant to say public LIBRARY not diary...lol
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(Posted as HurleyBD)
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(01-Feb-2003 at 10:45)


Just because it is in the library doesnt mean its right. The only proof they had of him "denying" his theory was from his wife or sometihng claiming that he did.

If you cant believe in something with as much evidence as evolution, how can you believe in god who has practically zero evidence?

Life is a test and I get bad marks.
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(Posted as Agemmenion)
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(01-Feb-2003 at 11:07)


Quote:
but i'd prefer the god thing, just in case it's true i'm covering my back.
That's one of the problems with religion. you arent in it because you love god. You are in it because you don't want to end up in the supposed hell.

================
No Medicine Can Cure a Fool
The object of war isn't to die for your country, but to make the other poor bastard die for his. -Patton
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(Posted as Lord Drizzt)
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(01-Feb-2003 at 13:16)


heh, not for me.

well why would it matter whether darwin or gallileo rejected their theories or not? it wouldnt contradict the bible. evolution doesnt contradict the bible, it just depends on how you interpret it. science will never contradict the bible. even if scientists clone humans, even if the raelian theoy is correct, it wouldnt contradict the bible. for creation vs. theistic evolution, the debate is on how you interpret the bible, not how religious you should be.

s o u l f i r e
#1675  
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(01-Feb-2003 at 16:56)
I've seen some posts claiming that Darwin said he was wrong, but I remember we going thru that discussion and something pointed out was that it was his wife that said so, and that his wife did not believe herself in evolution.
Even though I'm an atheist I once dated a cathequist and if given the chance she would drag me into those ceremonys and make marry her in the church (glad I got away on time), anyway if heaven is full of people like her (have to know her to understand this) I deffinatelly prefer going to hell!!

What the creacionists (churchies as I rather call them) seem to miss is that the vast majority of evolucionist believe in evolution not by an act of blind faith in the "divine" but as a racional conclusion.
The truth is that there in no VERIFIABLE EVIDENCE of god or such, actually the evidence points out the opposite, that there has been no observable supernatural events (unless you would want to include the sighting of comets, falling stars, earthquakes, storms, lightning and vulcanos).
There is evidence of evolution, chemestry and biological knowledge support it, both knowledges were based on FACTS and EVIDENCE.

Whenever (this was said before, look page 83) there is something that churchies do not understand or think science has not explained properly so far (might even have some reason to it), they start saying that it proves that it was god! (reminds me of one of the first documented cases of placebo effect)
IGNORANCE IS NOT AN ARGUMENT!!!

Some say that just in case, they go for creacionism, well this is ment to be a racional discussion so let go of your irracional fears before starting.

Even if all the expert agreed they might still be wrong.
Blinder then the blind man is the man that does not want to see. Convictions have hurt more the truth then lies.
The supreme victory is to win without doing battle.- Sun Tzu

Live each day as if it was your last. One day you will be right!
#1676  
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(01-Feb-2003 at 17:25)


Quote:
(Originally posted by Lord Drizzt)

and how would you support your argument?
Fossil evidence, radioactive dating, relative dating, vestigal structures, observation of micro-evolution, etc. Evolution has at least some support, whereas I haven't seen any rock evidence for 7-day creation except the bible, which is contraversial itself.
-=-=--=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Quote:
ITS IS NOT A LIE. I FOUND THE INFORMATION IN ONE OF THE BOOKS AT MY PUBLIC DIARY.
And I found a book that says aliens walk amoungst us in disguise, waiting to conquer our planet to create it into some sort of new deathstar. Lol... That was sadly in the non fiction isle. Just because the library hosts it doesn't mean it's right.
Quote:
On a lighter note, galileo did give in from pressure, so that he wouldnt get executed, but people shortly after realised that he was right and they were wrong

(i have nothing against galileos information, it is true and not frowned at by my religion, its fact, not theory )
Yet, it WAS. It's the same way with Darwin. The fact he was Christian pressured him into rejecting his theory.

In brightest day, in blackest night, No evil shall escape my sight.
Let those who worship evil's might, Beware my power, Green Lantern's Light
Slave of Justara
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#1677  
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(Posted as Lord Drizzt)
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(02-Feb-2003 at 02:23)


[quote]Fossil evidence, radioactive dating, relative dating, vestigal structures, observation of micro-evolution, etc. Evolution has at least some support, whereas I haven't seen any rock evidence for 7-day creation except the bible, which is contraversial itself.[quote]

how would you support that darwin rejected him theory due to pressure from the chuch?

s o u l f i r e
#1678  
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(02-Feb-2003 at 03:36)
Actually i don't know if he did totally disreguard his entire theory, i know that he did say that it had it's faults ie infinite complexity in organisms, but i don't know if he did say the entire theory was wrong because of it. It wasn't because of the church though, that i do know, gallileo would've been killed by the spanish inquisition if he didn't say his theories were wrong, but the chuch didn't have the power it did in darwin's time.
BTW, darwin didn't actually think of the theory, another man did, whose name escapes me at the moment, he had an idea of it just didn't know what to say, and the other guy wasn't a part of the scientific society so nobody would've listened. So they worked "together" and darwin stole it. Ah, wallace, thats the guy i think.

All High Monkey0 The Great, Alcholic Feary and Cullinary Genious.
#1679  
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(02-Feb-2003 at 04:50)
the book i read it in was in factual section, and it had extracts of his personal diary as well as claim from close friends and such... i know many of my own friends who believe this too....anyway, im outta here, im tired with arguing with atheists who somehow enjoy believing that when they die they will just get eaten by worms.... i believ what i want, and u can believe what u want. I wont be the one begging for mercy in hell
#1680  
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