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Posts: 551/673
(13-Jan-2004 at 22:05)


Well, MAPS, how about I just say I existed the last few seconds and somehow created an illusionary life for myself and you're just another part of that illusion? I mean, my hypothesis is just as good as yours, because likewise it has absolutely no evidence whatsoever. Thanks for your time, now stop spewing bullshit.

"Be wary of what lurks about when the darkness consumes you, for it is not the darkness you should be most afraid of, but those rays of light that should care to take advantage of your unhealthy state of mind."

Last edited by Warlyik, 13-Jan-2004 at 22:06.
#101  
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(13-Jan-2004 at 22:27)
Quote:
(Originally posted by MAPS)
He didn't come from anywhere. God has always existed and so have we. But we were in different forms. I kind of intelligence (spirit) without bodies.
Heresy! The Bible clearly states that God created man on the sixth day.

Quote:
If there was proof God existed, there would be no doubt in anyones mind. Everyone would know there was a God. If everyone knew there was a God, noone would sin because of fear of him. There would be no test. You do your work when your boss is looking. But if he isn't looking, would you still do your work?
What kind of boss would deliberetely *never* show up on work just to find out if any work gets done? Is that the same boss who is such a snob that he turns visitors down because they got mud on their shoes rather than suggest they take them off?

Quote:
God must hide himself from us to see if we really want to follow him, or if we just do what he says when it is in our best interest.
Do you believe in the Bible? Because in the Bible there are descriptions of all kind of miracles that were visible for lots of people. When God split the Red Sea it can't have left much doubt in the eays of those who saw it, can it? Why doesn't he do that kind of stuff any more?

Besides, what you say gives me as an atheist much better odds of going to heaven than you have. After all, if I do good deeds it can't be because I expect to be rewarded after death, while as you write you may do them just for the reward. What matters isn't proof but belief, the employee who thinks the boss is watching won't steal even if the boss is nowhere near. If god really didn't want us to know, he wouldn't have given *any* evidence of his existence.
#102  
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(13-Jan-2004 at 23:33)


Quote:
(Originally posted by Bernel)
Heresy! The Bible clearly states that God created man on the sixth day.
It also states he created the earth and the heavens. And he did. But what did he make them out of? It never said he created water or that he created dirt or iron or nickel or hydrogen or any of the other elements. But he made the earth out of something. So he really just organized it. He organized us out of SOMETHING. We didn't appear from nothing. Therefore we have always existed in one form or another.

Quote:
(Originally posted by Bernel)
What kind of boss would deliberetely *never* show up on work just to find out if any work gets done? Is that the same boss who is such a snob that he turns visitors down because they got mud on their shoes rather than suggest they take them off?
It's called an analogy. You can't just take the shoes off. You can't forgive yourself of your own sins.

Quote:
(Originally posted by Bernel)
Do you believe in the Bible? Because in the Bible there are descriptions of all kind of miracles that were visible for lots of people. When God split the Red Sea it can't have left much doubt in the eays of those who saw it, can it? Why doesn't he do that kind of stuff any more?
Miracles were and are a response to faith, and it's best encouragement. Miracles don't make faith. Faith makes miracles. If miracles cease, it is because faith has ceased. Some miracles arn't so apparant. They happen everyday. They don't have to be big like the Red Sea. God isn't going to part the ocean for no good reason. Things like that arn't needed today. Besides, if you don't have faith, big miracles will probably just be explained by science somehow, and counted as a random happening in nature.

Quote:
(Originally posted by Bernel)
Besides, what you say gives me as an atheist much better odds of going to heaven than you have. After all, if I do good deeds it can't be because I expect to be rewarded after death, while as you write you may do them just for the reward. What matters isn't proof but belief, the employee who thinks the boss is watching won't steal even if the boss is nowhere near. If god really didn't want us to know, he wouldn't have given *any* evidence of his existence.
If he gave us NO indication of his existence, we couldn't follow him. Just has you are hired to do a job by your employer, God gives us commandments to follow. How could we do our job if we didn't know what it was.
It is true we shouldn't do right just because we want to get into heaven. We should do it because God commands it. That is the only reason. That's why we are less then the dust of the earth. If God says to dust "Move.", it will move. If he says to us "Thou shalt not commit adultery.", some will do it anyway.

(\ /)
( . .)
c('')('')

Last edited by MAPS, 13-Jan-2004 at 23:38.
#103  
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(Posted as Nimon of M)
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(14-Jan-2004 at 00:05)


If Faith brings fort Miracles, and not the other way around, how did the Miracles of the old times come to pass? I doubt that the people there were in absolute faith to Jesus, since he had no evidence of his heritage, but his miracles, which you say was brought forward by faith. Most people back then were sceptic to Jesus (if he ever existed), they had no real reason to believe that this was the real messiah.

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#104  
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(14-Jan-2004 at 00:31)
plus apparently only one person has to have the faith to do it...u don't need a horde of followers (ie moses doing stuff to scare the egyptians)

_-^-_ OH NO! MY WOOLEN SUIT HAS NYLON IN IT! BETTER FIRE UP THE INCINERATOR AND GET MYSELF A GOAT! A female one...god doesn't want a male one...
#105  
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(14-Jan-2004 at 03:06)


Quote:
(Originally posted by Nimon of M)

If Faith brings fort Miracles, and not the other way around, how did the Miracles of the old times come to pass? I doubt that the people there were in absolute faith to Jesus, since he had no evidence of his heritage, but his miracles, which you say was brought forward by faith. Most people back then were sceptic to Jesus (if he ever existed), they had no real reason to believe that this was the real messiah.
Jesus had no faith because he didn't believe in God but knew God perfectly. And was God himself. He could perform the miracles in and of himself without the faith of others to help. He had to do this to show that he was the messiah. Without miracles, who would believe him, even his apostles, if he just went around saying he was the savior? I could walk around doing the same thing without miracles. But for us, the only way WE can work miracles is through faith.

(\ /)
( . .)
c('')('')

Last edited by MAPS, 14-Jan-2004 at 03:09.
#106  
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(Posted as MagusofLight)
Posts: 325/1441
(14-Jan-2004 at 04:31)


Quote:
Here God kills a baby : II Samuel 12:13-18
It was punishment for Davids sin of adultery. It wasn't punishment for the baby, who would spend eternity in paradise. Stop making death seem so horrible! but i guess if your going to hell, it may seem rather bad...(not that i wish anyone to go to hell!)

Quote:
Here God orders to kill women, childeren, babies and even animals : I Samuel 15:3
This is punishment for when the amekites raided and killed the jews when they left slavery (maybe this is where you get all that slavery is right according to the bible stuff. God FREED slaves, not ENSLAVED them.) If anyone survived they would have vengence on the jews. When you want to eliminate a rival, you ELIMINATE a rival. Back then, it was about survival, not ethics.

Quote:
Here God orders kind of the same cruelty : Numbers 31:17-18
This ones a bit more complicated, regarding attackes from the midianites on the isrealites (notice that each time they were provoked) and the people trying to turn the isrealites away from God.


Quote:
Here God kills entire families (even people who were just sacrificing stuff to him!) : Numbers 16:27-32
He killed those who had contempt for God, at the same time affirming that Moses was sent from God, because the people doubted, moses opened up the earth to kill the rebelious families. And yes, I wonder why god killed the children too, but he gave them life and he can take their life if he wants. Since they are children they would go to heaven (presumbly) and if they were left on earth as orphans, well, that would be bad. period. And they were not sacrificing stuff, they were offering incence as a means to bribe God. Didn't work.


Quote:
...execution for being homosexual? Leviticus 20:13
These are JEWISH laws, not christian laws (the prime word is 'christ') Notice how all your references are being made to the old testament? hate jews then (wait, never mind, thats anti-semitism. Jews are a minority, so we must all be nice to them, but if your a member of a majority religion, all bets are off!(and i don't hate jews)), because when christ came all these things could be forgiven. No longer do we have to kill those for doing such and such (like fucking a man).

Quote:
...execution for working on Sabbath? Exodus 31:15
Jesus did a lot of things that weren't allowed to be done on the sabbath. Priests REALLY didn't like that.

I would answer the rest, but I am running out of time. Suffice to say, ummm...quote the things your referencing too. Its better then just saying "such and such happened in this particular part"

and suffice to say...uh..i dunno. goodbye!

This too will pass
#107  
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(14-Jan-2004 at 10:43)
freak cmoooooon?

All religious people are starting to scare me, whats wrong with this planet? Cant humans do anything without talking about history, a myth or whatever it is. God is history, hes something created by humans, like internet? A big difference is that at least the internet is fun

You are like psychos, mental hospitals next?
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(Posted as Black Fighter)
Posts: 2515/4986
(14-Jan-2004 at 16:01)


MagusofLight,

Jahweh killed a baby, after giving it a disease for several days. Yes it was a punishment for what David did, how fair is that? Killing an innocent little baby, for what his father did wrong!

After that you claim God only ordered the Jews to strike back at those who hit them.
- First : Why not only fight their army? The Jews got ordered to kill little babies, women, and even the animals of their victims!
- Second : It is certainly not true that they only retaliated. The Jews got ordered to take the 'Promised Land' by military force - they simply stole the land of the many people who were living there.

Then you make the ridiculous statement that Leviticus 20:13 is a Jewish law - who cares! I know it is a Jewish law, but if you'd look it up in your ancient mythology book you will find that it is the words from your loving God.
I don't care if this law still counts, I don't care if it was a law which counted for even a single individual - it's just plain unfair, injustice and cruel.

Jesus did a lot of things that weren't allowed - so what? God made these horrible laws, and about 1000 years later his son (according to your beliefs) changed the laws. That's 1000 years too late!

God kills innocent childeren, women, elder people, pregnant women, animals, homosexuals, childeren who curse/strike their parents, people who work on Sabbath...it's insane, completely insane.
#109  
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(15-Jan-2004 at 04:04)


Quote:
(Originally posted by Black Fighter)

MagusofLight,

Jahweh killed a baby, after giving it a disease for several days. Yes it was a punishment for what David did, how fair is that? Killing an innocent little baby, for what his father did wrong!

After that you claim God only ordered the Jews to strike back at those who hit them.
- First : Why not only fight their army? The Jews got ordered to kill little babies, women, and even the animals of their victims!
- Second : It is certainly not true that they only retaliated. The Jews got ordered to take the 'Promised Land' by military force - they simply stole the land of the many people who were living there.

Then you make the ridiculous statement that Leviticus ##:## is a Jewish law - who cares! I know it is a Jewish law, but if you'd look it up in your ancient mythology book you will find that it is the words from your loving God.
I don't care if this law still counts, I don't care if it was a law which counted for even a single individual - it's just plain unfair, injustice and cruel.

Jesus did a lot of things that weren't allowed - so what? God made these horrible laws, and about 1000 years later his son (according to your beliefs) changed the laws. That's 1000 years too late!

God kills innocent childeren, women, elder people, pregnant women, animals, homosexuals, childeren who curse/strike their parents, people who work on Sabbath...it's insane, completely insane.
And what if we have no choice? What if we have to work on sabbath or we lose out job? That's a tough decision, go to hell and be able to put food on my families table, and a good rough over their heads, or neglect my family, and not go to hell!

We as a human race are imperfect, we as a human race, some are homosexual, some do have premarial relations, while it is sometimes considered wrong, we cannot change it. We have no power over wether you are straight or not, we have no power over wether or not you can wait till wedding night. And yet, god is saying "be straght, or go to hell", and "dont work on sunday, or go to hell", and "dont have sex before marriage or go to hell." What is this? God is demanding us to do things we as a human race cannot do. God is asking everyone to be straight, when everyone (including "god") knows damn well some ppl cant. God is asking too much of us. yes, I beleive in the 10 commandments, a great document, but we cant always be perfect. and the way god sees it, we have to be.

As I understand it, when eve took a bite from that apple, she brough sin into the world, well, Eve wasn't perfect, and guess what, she was banished from the garden. God asks too much of us.

(`._.[ ]._.)
.: :. Lord Anubis .: :.
R.I.P. Kayla Renee Winterfeldt; born 28th of October 2004, died 28th of October 2004
I am for freedom of religion and against all maneuvers to bring about a legal ascendancy of one sect over another. ~ Thomas Jefferson
#110  
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(15-Jan-2004 at 04:35)


Quote:
(Originally posted by Lord Anubis)


We have no power over wether you are straight or not, we have no power over wether or not you can wait till wedding night. And yet, god is saying "be straght, or go to hell", and "dont work on sunday, or go to hell", and "dont have sex before marriage or go to hell." What is this? God is demanding us to do things we as a human race cannot do. God is asking everyone to be straight, when everyone (including "god") knows damn well some ppl cant. God is asking too much of us. yes, I beleive in the 10 commandments, a great document, but we cant always be perfect. and the way god sees it, we have to be.
This is where you are wrong. We DO have power over it! You can CHOOSE to not engage in a sexual relationship before marriage. You can CHOOSE not to get a job where you are required to work on the sabbath. God commands us to be perfect, but he didn't command us to be perfect in THIS life. He knows we gonna screw up. That's the whole point! To make mistakes, learn from them, and progress! If we do our best here, the atonement comes in and saves us through grace. We cannot have grace to make us perfect unless we TRY our very hardest.

(\ /)
( . .)
c('')('')
#111  
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(16-Jan-2004 at 04:16)


Quote:
(Originally posted by MAPS)

This is where you are wrong. We DO have power over it! You can CHOOSE to not engage in a sexual relationship before marriage. You can CHOOSE not to get a job where you are required to work on the sabbath. God commands us to be perfect, but he didn't command us to be perfect in THIS life. He knows we gonna screw up. That's the whole point! To make mistakes, learn from them, and progress! If we do our best here, the atonement comes in and saves us through grace. We cannot have grace to make us perfect unless we TRY our very hardest.
Try is like lie, try is like bullshit, you can smell it a mile away (punn intended).

Yea, we CAN choose, but most of the time, we arn't thinking with our heads, that's the way humans have evolved.

And it seems to me that god plays favorites. If christian, and you are the laziest mofo in the world, you go to heaven, but if your wiccan, or some other religion, and your the hardest working mofo in the world, down to hell you go, all because you CHOOSE to believe in something else. because you CHOOSE to be different.

The bible purpously undermeans the everything else. It indirectly states that if you arn't perfect, and your not christian, your worthless, so why let you into heaven? I think a real god wouldn't care what religion you were, or if you were a virgin or not on your wedding nite, all that would matter is if you actually helped someone in your lifetime. If you helped someone, and you did a lot of good deeds, you would be allowed into heaven, even if you were some other religion. A real god wouldn't tell people to beleive in him or he will kill you (DEUT 8:19)(JUDG 10:13, where he denies you for "serving" other gods)(2KINGS 22:17, where he punishes for "serving" other gods)(The list goes on and on, here is the source:http://www.andyholloway.com/cgi-bin/bible.cgi). A real god, who is all loving as "god" is, then he shouldnt care what religion we follow, he should only care if we did good things and helped people.

EDIT// All sources have been taken from the King James version

(`._.[ ]._.)
.: :. Lord Anubis .: :.
R.I.P. Kayla Renee Winterfeldt; born 28th of October 2004, died 28th of October 2004
I am for freedom of religion and against all maneuvers to bring about a legal ascendancy of one sect over another. ~ Thomas Jefferson

Last edited by Lord Anubis, 16-Jan-2004 at 04:25.
Edit reason: EDIT//
#112  
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(16-Jan-2004 at 04:25)


Quote:
(Originally posted by Lord Anubis)
And it seems to me that god plays favorites. If christian, and you are the laziest mofo in the world, you go to heaven, but if your wiccan, or some other religion, and your the hardest working mofo in the world, down to hell you go, all because you CHOOSE to believe in something else. because you CHOOSE to be different.

The bible purpously undermeans the everything else. It indirectly states that if you arn't perfect, and your not christian, your worthless, so why let you into heaven? I think a real god wouldn't care what religion you were, or if you were a virgin or not on your wedding nite, all that would matter is if you actually helped someone in your lifetime.
Everyone has equal opportunity. It's easier for a good wiccan to get to heaven then it is for a bad christian. Being christian isn't a one way ticket to heaven. If you believe in christianity and don't live it, it's a LOT worse than a wiccan who doesn't believe in it and doesn't live it. EVERYONE has equal opportunity for heaven. There is no picking favorites.

And God DOES care if you are sinning or not. Good deeds don't "override" sins. If I kill someone, I can't undo that by saving someone elses life.

(\ /)
( . .)
c('')('')

Last edited by MAPS, 16-Jan-2004 at 04:27.
#113  
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(16-Jan-2004 at 04:27)


Quote:
(Originally posted by MAPS)

Everyone has equal opportunity. It's easier for a good wiccan to get to heaven then it is for a bad christian. being christian isn't a one way ticket to heaven. If you believe in christianity and don't live it, it's a LOT worse than a wiccan who doesn't believe in it and doesn't live it. EVERYONE has equal opportunity for heaven. There is no picking favorites.
Really?

Then why does the bible say that people of other religions arnt allowed in heaven? Why does god kill people of other religions if he wants us all to have a fair chance?

(`._.[ ]._.)
.: :. Lord Anubis .: :.
R.I.P. Kayla Renee Winterfeldt; born 28th of October 2004, died 28th of October 2004
I am for freedom of religion and against all maneuvers to bring about a legal ascendancy of one sect over another. ~ Thomas Jefferson
#114  
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(16-Jan-2004 at 04:29)


Show me the verse where it says if you arn't christian you can't enter heaven.

(\ /)
( . .)
c('')('')
#115  
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(Posted as Black Fighter)
Posts: 2526/4986
(16-Jan-2004 at 09:25)


I'm pretty sure that the words of Jesus saying 'no one can come to the father but through me' are meant. Most churches explain this as : accept Jesus, or forget it!

God will destroy the people that do not believe in him (Jude 1:5). 1 John 5 verse 19 says Christians are of God, and the rest are wicked.

1 John 2:22 says those who don't believe are liars and antichrist. 1 John 4:3 again says all who don't believe are the antichrist.

All atheists, those who don't believe, will be burned by God personally as he'll set the whole Earth on fire especially for them : 2 Peter 3:7
But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.
#116  
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(Posted as Dannoman)
Posts: 73/192
(16-Jan-2004 at 10:22)
that verse you were looking for BF was John 14.6 - Jesus said 'I am the way, the truth and the life, no-one comes to the father except through me"

he is claiming exclusivity - he is the only way people can be saved. the choices are to either believe that he sacrificed himself so that we can have a relationship with God or to reject his offer, continue live in sin and to reject eternal life in heaven , which means eternal life in hell where there will be crying and nashing of teeth.
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(16-Jan-2004 at 20:08)


Yes, you must accept him to enter heaven. That doesn't mean if you are another religion in this life you can't accept him. You can accept him after death and before you are judged. As I talked about a while ago, not everyone will even hear about Christ in this life. There must be a way for them to accept him after death or someone who has never heard of christianity would go to hell. This would not be fair. There is a "spirit world" we go to when we die. This is where we remain until resurrection and judgment. In this spirit world there is paradise and prison. Those who knew Christ and lived his teachings will go to paradise and those who knew the gospel and didn't live it and those who never heard it will be in spirit prison. People in paradise can teach those in prison and give them another chance to accept Christ before they are judged.

(\ /)
( . .)
c('')('')
#118  
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(17-Jan-2004 at 03:49)


Quote:
(Originally posted by MAPS)

Yes, you must accept him to enter heaven. That doesn't mean if you are another religion in this life you can't accept him. You can accept him after death and before you are judged. As I talked about a while ago, not everyone will even hear about Christ in this life. There must be a way for them to accept him after death or someone who has never heard of christianity would go to hell. This would not be fair. There is a "spirit world" we go to when we die. This is where we remain until resurrection and judgment. In this spirit world there is paradise and prison. Those who knew Christ and lived his teachings will go to paradise and those who knew the gospel and didn't live it and those who never heard it will be in spirit prison. People in paradise can teach those in prison and give them another chance to accept Christ before they are judged.
Okay, so your saying if I dont "accept" Christ by not becoming christian, Im in a sort of prison for the rest of my dead life, WOW! I CAN'T WAIT! Oh come on, people dont have to believe in Christ to be good people. People don't have to follow "god" to be good people. People have to do good things, and help other people to be good people. And your religion does not understand it. your religion is very strict, that's not the problem, the problem is it is never lienent. You can't cuss like other religions (oh, "fuck" OMG! How horrible!!!) You cant do anything. Your life is codemned, you cant do anything. You have no choices.

(`._.[ ]._.)
.: :. Lord Anubis .: :.
R.I.P. Kayla Renee Winterfeldt; born 28th of October 2004, died 28th of October 2004
I am for freedom of religion and against all maneuvers to bring about a legal ascendancy of one sect over another. ~ Thomas Jefferson
#119  
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(17-Jan-2004 at 03:57)


Quote:
(Originally posted by Lord Anubis)

Okay, so your saying if I dont "accept" Christ by not becoming christian, Im in a sort of prison for the rest of my dead life, WOW! I CAN'T WAIT! Oh come on, people dont have to believe in Christ to be good people. People don't have to follow "god" to be good people. People have to do good things, and help other people to be good people. And your religion does not understand it. your religion is very strict, that's not the problem, the problem is it is never lienent. You can't cuss like other religions (oh, "fuck" OMG! How horrible!!!) You cant do anything. Your life is codemned, you cant do anything. You have no choices.
You arn't in this prison for the rest of eternity. And don't think of this prison as something with bars and chains. It's a temporary state of being until judgement. Then you will recieve your reward. And sorry to burst your bubble but being a good person IS following God, regardless if you believe in one or not.

Again another analogy:

You kill someone and are put in jail. You lose your freedom and are a captive. You don't have choices anymore.

OR

You live a law abiding life. you have a clean record, can get a job, and have freedom. Your choices are unlimited.

Keeping your standards morally elevated isn't restrictive. It is freedom. No guilt. No regrets.

(\ /)
( . .)
c('')('')

Last edited by MAPS, 17-Jan-2004 at 04:04.
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