[Grashnak]

The monotheists all believe that God is omnipotent, omnicient & omnipresent. They all claim that they cannot hope to understand God - so why do forumers (including myself here) ask the thesists about God - how can they hope to answer with any authority on the subject of God itself ? They can comment on the written works inspired by God - but not God the ermm... for lack of a better word man.

Give you an example (shamelessly plagerised from Babylon 5 TV series).

Imagine if I pick up an ant & put in my pocket. I then drive to work & put the ant next to some other ants. The ant I moved asks the other ants "Why did that happen to me ?" - why should the other ants be able answer ?

To the faithful God is something which is a being that is so much more than them that they cannot hope to understand anything about it.

This also means to me that the faithful cannot make comments such as "God means this when in the bible he says that" as they cannot hope to understand the mind of God, nor debate his motives or wishes for mankind.

[Drizzt]

God is not fully understandable, but he is definately understandable. For example, God is slow to anger. There. We understand that.

[dothackRAVE]

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(Originally posted by Grashnak)

The monotheists all believe that God is omnipotent, omnicient & omnipresent. They all claim that they cannot hope to understand God - so why do forumers (including myself here) ask the thesists about God - how can they hope to answer with any authority on the subject of God itself ? They can comment on the written works inspired by God - but not God the ermm... for lack of a better word man.

Good point. However, this is where prayer and faith comes in. Because we simply cannot know for sure what God meant in the Bible, we pray, and get answers from the Lord Himself.

We also gather together for sharing our revelations and testimonies occassionally(although I don't, I trust more in the Lord than human beings). This is check each other for mistakes. Of course, like I said, this method is rather flawed as we are checking with flawed human beings, not God Himself.

[Grashnak]

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(Originally posted by Lord Drizzt)

God is not fully understandable, but he is definately understandable. For example, God is slow to anger. There. We understand that.

How can you claim to know this ? Where does this information come from ? At best you may be able to dig out some scripture, but you cannot claim this with any authority. The Bible is not an insight to God's mind - at best it is what he wants you to believe, dosn't mean it is true. Maybe God is nothing like what is described in the Bible, you cannot claim otherwise with any sureity.

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(Originally posted by dothackRAVE) <SNIP>

God may reveal to you via prayer what he wants - but then he may misguide you. I seem to remember a story (think it was Abraham) where he was told by God to kill his son... this was a test & God did not want him to actually do it. I don't think the faithful can even claim an answer from a prayer is 100% 'the truth'.

[dothackRAVE]

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(Originally posted by Grashnak)
God may reveal to you via prayer what he wants - but then he may misguide you. I seem to remember a story (think it was Abraham) where he was told by God to kill his son... this was a test & God did not want him to actually do it. I don't think the faithful can even claim an answer from a prayer is 100% 'the truth'.

Then Abraham's actions became the symbol for the pinaccle of faith. In fact, the Quran says Ibrahim(Abraham for us) was willing to sacrifice his son for Allah(which is God). Many Muslims take this as the ultimate show of faith.

So, Abraham managed to pass the test of faith, and he, along with his son, was granted a spot in Heaven. So, whatever it was Abraham did, it was God's intention.

[Skraz]

ravemaster

with all due respect your prayers etc getting word from god himself is not a valid argument - simply because its just things your mind experiances - whether true or not is not the debate - cause others also get this from toher gods etc and athiasts like myself have no god and dont get it - but because other gods also give the same thing to other people it makes the argument non valid and just an impulse on the mind

same as athiasts saying - i dont get anything so there cant be a god - its fundementally flawed on your reality not others.

i know why i ask thiests - its to explore my own world, to advance my knowledge past what it is, to take in others points of view - i attempt to understand others - but my reality is only guided by my mind - much like what im telling rave which means ill never trully understand - in fact none of us will ever understand if we are right untill we are dead, even then not maybe cause if you just die you will never know, but cease to exist

[dothackRAVE]

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(Originally posted by Skraz)

ravemaster

with all due respect your prayers etc getting word from god himself is not a valid argument - simply because its just things your mind experiances - whether true or not is not the debate - cause others also get this from toher gods etc and athiasts like myself have no god and dont get it - but because other gods also give the same thing to other people it makes the argument non valid and just an impulse on the mind

Do we have to be so narrowminded as to regard all other religions as worshipping different Gods? For all you know, they could be intertwined. How else can you get such a large percentage of ancient human beings coming up with their own Gods?

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same as athiasts saying - i dont get anything so there cant be a god - its fundementally flawed on your reality not others.

This is based on faith. No faith = no message. I strongly believe that there is a God, and therefore, I hear Him.

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i know why i ask thiests - its to explore my own world, to advance my knowledge past what it is, to take in others points of view - i attempt to understand others - but my reality is only guided by my mind - much like what im telling rave which means ill never trully understand - in fact none of us will ever understand if we are right untill we are dead, even then not maybe cause if you just die you will never know, but cease to exist

Grashnak's point was, why ask a flawed human being about something as incomprehensible as God?

[Skraz]

rave :

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Do we have to be so narrowminded as to regard all other religions as worshipping different Gods? For all you know, they could be intertwined. How else can you get such a large percentage of ancient human beings coming up with their own Gods?

do you have to be so narrowminded to think you are correct - they could well be intertwined just like they could well not be - jut cause you think one way does not make it correct

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This is based on faith. No faith = no message. I strongly believe that there is a God, and therefore, I hear Him.

do you always listen to voices in your head?
those we call insane and lock up - they hear and listen to things that tell them to do stuff - what makes yours more valid?

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Grashnak's point was, why ask a flawed human being about something as incomprehensible as God?

lets have a look shall we

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so why do forumers (including myself here) ask the thesists about God

i asnwered that question - i cant help it if you have trouble reading and only read what you want ot hear

[fspikec]

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(Originally posted by Lord Drizzt)

God is not fully understandable, but he is definately understandable. For example, God is slow to anger. There. We understand that.

God is slow to anger? How could god ever get angered and if he did, how would it be a set time frame of slow or fast. God is perfect, all knowing and all powerful. God does not have anger, he isn't human. Anger is a human imperfection and often our biggest weakness.

[Lord Menchalior]

God is good
Devil is bad
Faith is good
Sin is Bad

God fights against the sin. Remember Sodoma and Gomorra? Maybe the great flood? Word perfect doesn't mean somebody couldn't get angry. Even he is perfect. How you calim perfect thing cannot get angry? Do you know anyone perfect?

God hates sins, but he loves us. That is why christ died for our sins. Who ever takes his blood and washes him/herself in it, will wash his sins away.

When God looks man, he sees sin. But when God looks someone who has washed in Christs blood, he will see someone who has repented and who has faith. One who is then saved.

There is fight between good and evil, that is raging even now. Wars of Heavens and hell are reflected to this world.

God has been patient, but I think God's patience is wearing thin now. ( Look the hurricanes, earthquakes, drought and floods that occur now more than ever before )

[Grashnak]

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(Originally posted by dothackRAVE)

So, Abraham managed to pass the test of faith, and he, along with his son, was granted a spot in Heaven. So, whatever it was Abraham did, it was God's intention.

Sure - but what I was saying was God told Abraham to kill his son but didn't want him to actually do the deed - Gods actual motive according to the bible was to test Abraham. Thus you cannot claim anything God tells you via prayer is what he actually wants..

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(Originally posted by dothackRAVE)
<SNIP>

Erm... you will have to help me out here LM - am a little confused how this relates to the topic... unless of course you are saying you can speak on behalf of God - if so how do you get around my opening point of you cannot claim to speak on behalf of God since you cannot hope to understand his mind since he is so much more tham you.

[Nimon]

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(Originally posted by Lord Menchalior)

God fights against the sin.

How can an omnipotent being fight against anything and not win in the first moment of 'battle'?

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Maybe the great flood?

You mean that supersticious event that science has all but disproved?

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How you calim perfect thing cannot get angry? Do you know anyone perfect?

A perfect being needs to have perfect self control and calm. If a perfect being becomes angry, then the perfect being does not have perfect self control. It's as easy as that.

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When God looks man, he sees sin. But when God looks someone who has washed in Christs blood, he will see someone who has repented and who has faith. One who is then saved.

Bla bla bla, whatever. How about you stop with this old clichê style propaganda and try to actually debate?

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There is fight between good and evil, that is raging even now. Wars of Heavens and hell are reflected to this world.

Gosh darnit, that God of yours must be a pretty impotent omnipotent being if he can't win a war being all-powerfull and all.

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God has been patient, but I think God's patience is wearing thin now. ( Look the hurricanes, earthquakes, drought and floods that occur now more than ever before )

Where do you get this from? Really, do you just pull this out of your ass? What do YOU know about natural events in the past? Did you know that 5 times in the Earths history the world has been struck by cataclysmic events that has killed atleast 25% of the Earths life? God must have been really angry at those dinorsaurs! (No, the "Flood" isn't one of them

[fspikec]

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(Originally posted by Lord Menchalior)

God is good
Devil is bad
Faith is good
Sin is Bad

God fights against the sin. Remember Sodoma and Gomorra? Maybe the great flood? Word perfect doesn't mean somebody couldn't get angry. Even he is perfect. How you calim perfect thing cannot get angry? Do you know anyone perfect?

God hates sins, but he loves us. That is why christ died for our sins. Who ever takes his blood and washes him/herself in it, will wash his sins away.

When God looks man, he sees sin. But when God looks someone who has washed in Christs blood, he will see someone who has repented and who has faith. One who is then saved.

There is fight between good and evil, that is raging even now. Wars of Heavens and hell are reflected to this world.

God has been patient, but I think God's patience is wearing thin now. ( Look the hurricanes, earthquakes, drought and floods that occur now more than ever before )

Once again your giving god human traits. God is not human. God is without fault. God can't not be angry, that is trait of humans. Anger is a human weakness. Plus God is all knowing and all powerful. Even if he could be angry, why would he? He already knows everything that will happen, but yet will he will be angry about it? How can god hate anything? he created it all. He had full knowledge of what he was creating. He knew what would become of his creations. If he hated it, he would have never created it because that would be flawed.

and the reference to the weather, majority of the world is unaffected by it. To say that god would discriminate and punish a few people for everyones actions would mean that god isn't perfect.

[Viriatus]

It's funny how people decide what is perfection and what is God. And I say define, not refer to or exemplify. When you say what God can or cannot do, you are assuming a ceertain definition of God, that is, asserting His limits. But we say that God is (or would be, for an atheist) absolute: isn't this a definition for God? Well, if it is, then we would have a contradiction here, defining - and so puting limits - to the absolute, so He wouldn't be absolute. But what about if that phrase wasn't a definition of God but of our concept of absolute (or our definition of the word "absolute")?

For atheists, it seems easier to deny the existence of God pointing out inconsistencies within the faith of those who believe Him. But the fact that my knowledge is limited and fragmentary doesn't mean that that knowledge is not true. It doesn't even implies that God is playing trics on me. It is actually part of my freedom, a freedom so huge that only God could think of: the freedom to believe His own existence or not! If you don't see the point, let me explain a little more: if, by dedution alone, I could reach the conclusion of His existence, that wouldn't be my choice, just a coherent conclusion forced on me by my rational thinking; freedom of mind implies the responsability of the choice, otherwise computers wuould be free (freedom is obviously diferent from aleatory or flawed behaviour); so, in this World, human limited knowledge, is not a handicap but an oportunity to exercise our freedom. Something similar could be said about other limitations: suffering is a chance for love; despair for solidarity; ignorance for learning; etc. the same way that our lack of a natural flying capability was a chance (motivation) to develop planes.

But let me, if you don't mind, ask you, atheists, a very simple question (the ansewr may not be so simple...): can you prove the non-existence of God? If you point out that the statement "God exists" is a dogma - an axiom, or a postulate, if you want - have you noticed that the statements "god doesn't exists" is also axiomatic?
The same question goes to the agnostics who say "god's existence is not possibly to be known".

(I ask you people to be lenient with my writting, but I'm not a native english speaker)

[Grotus]

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(Originally posted by Viriatus)

It's funny how people decide what is perfection and what is God. And I say define, not refer to or exemplify. When you say what God can or cannot do, you are assuming a ceertain definition of God, that is, asserting His limits. But we say that God is (or would be, for an atheist) absolute: isn't this a definition for God? Well, if it is, then we would have a contradiction here, defining - and so puting limits - to the absolute, so He wouldn't be absolute. But what about if that phrase wasn't a definition of God but of our concept of absolute (or our definition of the word "absolute")?

For atheists, it seems easier to deny the existence of God pointing out inconsistencies within the faith of those who believe Him. But the fact that my knowledge is limited and fragmentary doesn't mean that that knowledge is not true. It doesn't even implies that God is playing trics on me. It is actually part of my freedom, a freedom so huge that only God could think of: the freedom to believe His own existence or not! If you don't see the point, let me explain a little more: if, by dedution alone, I could reach the conclusion of His existence, that wouldn't be my choice, just a coherent conclusion forced on me by my rational thinking; freedom of mind implies the responsability of the choice, otherwise computers wuould be free (freedom is obviously diferent from aleatory or flawed behaviour); so, in this World, human limited knowledge, is not a handicap but an oportunity to exercise our freedom. Something similar could be said about other limitations: suffering is a chance for love; despair for solidarity; ignorance for learning; etc. the same way that our lack of a natural flying capability was a chance (motivation) to develop planes.

But let me, if you don't mind, ask you, atheists, a very simple question (the ansewr may not be so simple...): can you prove the non-existence of God? If you point out that the statement "God exists" is a dogma - an axiom, or a postulate, if you want - have you noticed that the statements "god doesn't exists" is also axiomatic?
The same question goes to the agnostics who say "god's existence is not possibly to be known".

(I ask you people to be lenient with my writting, but I'm not a native english speaker)

Your english is excellent, and much better than some of the native english speakers on these boards.

As an atheist, I don't feel a need to prove that God doesn't exist. Since I don't have faith, for me the concept of God falls into the same category as that of ghosts, UFO landings, telepathy, and other concepts that connot be proven according to scientific reasoning. These concepts all share at least one thing in common: their adherants must have faith in them. Without faith, these concepts cannot exist, because they simply don't have any other footing in this world. Theists may counter that God exists whether we believe in Him or not, but that again is simply an article of faith. That belief cannot be supported by any reproducable experiments or observations.

And let me say that when I compare the concept of God to UFO's, telepathy, etc. I am not trying to be flippant or disrepectful to anyone's faith. Note that I capitalize "God" and "Him", because I respect that others have different viewpoints than I do, and it won't kill me to show a little respect now and then.

I realize that it is a bit of a cliche', but to me there are two kinds of people in this world: those with faith, and those without it. Faith opens up many paths of reasoning (yes, "reason" can go hand in hand with faith)that would not be logical to those without faith, while those without faith have similar challenges when trying to find their way in the world.

You may note that in my entire time here, I've never tried to convince someone of faith that they are wrong. Not only is this disrespectful and intolerant, but when debating with someone who has faith, it is ultimately useless. Faith is not faith if it has to have a scientific basis. True faith absolutely must exist with or without a basis for proof. Anything less is simply someone trying to hedge their bets, and I doubt that God would appreciate that very much.

On the other hand, when someone like yourself, in what I think is an honest attempt at understanding, asks me how I arrive at my views, I am more than glad to share them. Again, not to change your mind, but simply in the hope that you may understand mine.

[Viriatus]

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As an atheist, I don't feel a need to prove that God doesn't exist. Since I don't have faith, for me the concept of God falls into the same category as that of ghosts, UFO landings, telepathy, and other concepts that connot be proven according to scientific reasoning. These concepts all share at least one thing in common: their adherants must have faith in them. Without faith, these concepts cannot exist, because they simply don't have any other footing in this world. Theists may counter that God exists whether we believe in Him or not, but that again is simply an article of faith. That belief cannot be supported by any reproducable experiments or observations.

Let me tell you that, reading this forum, I seldom found such a serious answer as yours. In fact, besides the focal point of the existence of God, you comment deserves my general agreement and sincere compliments. So, take my words also as a share of my thoughts and belifs. I'll be glad if they suggest to you further reasoning and reflexion about your own belifs. And, don't take me wrong, but I really think you are not so far way from Faith as you may yourself perceive.

[Marth On]

Thank you Viriatus and Grotus, for bringing a touch of civility to a debate that can sometimes get quite uncivilized.

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A perfect being needs to have perfect self control and calm. If a perfect being becomes angry, then the perfect being does not have perfect self control. It's as easy as that.

I would say that in the instances in the Bible where God got angry, He had quite perfect self-control. For instance, whenever He got mad at the Israelites, He didn't just destroy the planet and start over with a new race, which He could have done.

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Once again your giving god human traits. God is not human. God is without fault. God can't not be angry, that is trait of humans. Anger is a human weakness. Plus God is all knowing and all powerful. Even if he could be angry, why would he? He already knows everything that will happen, but yet will he will be angry about it? How can god hate anything? he created it all. He had full knowledge of what he was creating. He knew what would become of his creations. If he hated it, he would have never created it because that would be flawed.

Why is anger a "weakness?" Hatred or malice may be a weakness, but anger most certainly is not. One can be quite angry but still maintain a love for the object of his anger. Likewise, God does this for us. And as for hating anything; the only thing God hates is sin. The reason He hates this is because sin is that which goes against His will. And He did not create sin, that is what we call it when, by our free will, we choose to do something that goes against God's will.
And Nimon, why are you being antagonistic towards Lord Menchalior? He's just presenting his views, but because they disagree with yours you shoot them down.

[Gus Mackay]

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And Nimon, why are you being antagonistic towards Lord Menchalior? He's just presenting his views, but because they disagree with yours you shoot them down.

because most atheists are atagonistic...

Anger is a weakness??? WTF??? How is it?

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You mean that supersticious event that science has all but disproved?

Nimon, there are countless countless records of primitive civilisations recording a 'great flood'.

God has not won the battle because He wants us. He wants us to choose Him. The final battle won't begin until the world ends.

[fspikec]

Anger not a weakness? Anger clouds judgement causes irrational behavior. Have you ever studied any martial arts? They are all based on not getting angry and losing control, but actually maintianing your cool and self-control.

And even if he somehow does have human emotions, why would he even bother with them? Why would god even bother getting angry? He is all knowing and all powerful. And even the bible defined god as perfect, not an absolute. Perfection is a very easy concept to understand. perfect = without flaw(s). Therefore in order to be perfect, he is limited to the boundries of perfection. The point is that God is without a flaw.

[dothackRAVE]

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(Originally posted by Skraz)

rave :



do you have to be so narrowminded to think you are correct - they could well be intertwined just like they could well not be - jut cause you think one way does not make it correct

Well, I never did say they HAVE to be intertwined. Try not to take things out of context. I am merely suggesting a different way.

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do you always listen to voices in your head?
those we call insane and lock up - they hear and listen to things that tell them to do stuff - what makes yours more valid?

Of course they're locked up. Jesus already predicted that we will be persecuted as men of faith, and labelling us as insane and locking us up is the ultimate testament to Jesus' prophecy.

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i asnwered that question - i cant help it if you have trouble reading and only read what you want ot hear

I also answered the question. Grashnak, if you would make it clear if I had answered the question, it would be appreciated.