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Posts: 32/48
(11-Feb-2004 at 06:34)
Religion not only Christianity

So hello people, I was wondering what people think about Islam mainly. Also Judaism, Hinduism etc. Since practically every forum in here is the same I want to change up a bit. So ask questions Any about Islam I can hopefully answer, about all the isms I'll leave that to you.
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(11-Feb-2004 at 14:27)


I think the world of Islam, at least, all Islam that isn't Shia. Shi'ites give the rest of the relgion a bad name, in my opinion. I've studied a variety of things, and Islam is one of the most interesting things I've studied. To my knowledge, it's the only religon that has the instructions to build an egalitarian society written right in it's holy book.

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Posts: 231/291
(12-Feb-2004 at 00:50)


Does Islam have many different sects; such as Christianity comprising of Catholics, Protistants, Jehovah's Witnesses, etc. And what are the main ones and their differences?

"To be conscious that you are ignorant is a great step to knowledge" -Disraeli
"As for me, all I know is that I know nothing" - Socrates
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(12-Feb-2004 at 01:19)
Mainly Islam used to be one united religion but know thier is one branch off, really. The main one that follows God and the Prophet Mohammed words are the Sunnis. The branch off is the Shia, who believe in some differences including that the leadership of Islam should be passed thru the lineage of the Prophet. I dont understand how this can work hoever as the Prophet had no sons that lived past childhood thus last name cant be passed on. Also they believe that the prophets decendents are specail while Sunnis believe that all Muslims are of the house of the prophet. They also believe the fourth Calipha after the Prophet is the best of them. I hope I helped you ought.
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(12-Feb-2004 at 14:47)


Yeah, I was under the impression that the Shi'ites only recognized the rule of descendants of Muhammad (the prophet for those of you just joining the conversation) through Akbar.

Although the Sunnia and the Shia are the two main "branches" if you will in Islam, there are others. In the Indonesian area, for instance, there's a sect of Islam, I can't remember it's name, which is, suffice to say, really odd. They practice things like saint veneration, which is a really big taboo in Islam. Also, there's a group called the Sufis, who are basically philosophers of Islam, except they tend to come up with strange ideas, and a lot of their ideas are bidah, the sin of innovation, so, especially in years gone by, Sufis would occasionally get themselves killed by clerics of normal Islam

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(12-Feb-2004 at 19:19)
hmm...what do you think about suicide bombing, do you think it as a jihad or just plain suicide?
p.s. pls don't take this offensively

and my friend once said that islam will be divided into 73 branches of religion, whilst only one shall enter paradise and the rest shall be casted into hell. Have you heard about this?

Even in The world of black and white, there's always grey.
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(12-Feb-2004 at 21:20)
Quote:
hmm...what do you think about suicide bombing, do you think it as a jihad or just plain suicide?
p.s. pls don't take this offensively

and my friend once said that islam will be divided into 73 branches of religion, whilst only one shall enter paradise and the rest shall be casted into hell. Have you heard about this?
To Zippikay : Suicide bombing is an act of desperate, repressed individuals, and was not in any way related to Islamic teachings. They misinterpreted the real definition of jihad, as did a lot of people who does not make an effort to find out.

I am a Muslim, and I haven't heard about it having 73 branches of religion. Islam does, however, have different Mazhabs (schools of interpretation), and each schools acknowledge the other, and does NOT say that the other would go to hell. It is only a matter of interpretation for the practice of certain aspects, not the one main belief of serving Allah.
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(13-Feb-2004 at 01:33)


Jihad can be interpretted as strapping a bomb to yourself, but to interpret it like that, you really need to take creative license with the religon, and Islam is not exactly a religon that allows much room for interpretation. What Jihad is supposed to be is, on a personal level, to have the righteousness to resist an unjust dictator. Not by violence, though, by standing firm and addressing the concerns you have. However, the various "terrorist" groups have interpretted that idea into thinking that the US or Israel or India or whoever the hated enemy is, is in fact an evil dictator, and as such, they need to be resisted, and they choose violence as a means of resistance.

Even in the more pacifistic sense, Jihad is not accepted by all Muslims. Between Sunnis and Shi'ites, the Shi'ite is a lot more likely to accept it, and the Shi'ite is also a lot more likely to accept it as a means of violence. That's my main bone with Shia, it's a denomination of Islam that, if not by word, but by deed, supports the perversion of what is really a great religon into a justification for crimes against The God.

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Posts: 44/48
(17-Feb-2004 at 03:55)
Yeah Ive heard about that many denominations thing, it is true. Many people will and have been attempting to corrupt Islam and that is wrong. A strong religion is a unified religion, the Prophet Mohammed PBUH said that Islam is like the body, a part of it is in hindered the whole thing is in pain. About the Suicide bombongs way, these people see this as the only way to fight against the government which is opppressing them and killing them. I am not saiying these bombings of innocents is wrong for the Prophet commanded the muslims when in war not to harm the women, children, old, non combatants, even the crops or the animals. So Islam says not to harm innocent people, but the suicide bombers see no other way. As they would be killed attempting to defeat a government official or such.
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(17-Feb-2004 at 14:42)


Jihad doesn't have to be about violence, even in the resisting an unjust ruler way. It can be by fighting from the inside. Osama certainly did have the means to fight from the inside, but instead, he chose to fight with violence. Also, groups like the Hezbollah, look at the accomplishments that iraeli-palestinean peace achieved when they simply sat down and talked it over; Palestine has it's own territory now, officially recognized. Violence is not the way to achieve your goals, not in a world where there's others, capable of even more violence, at least, but that's just getting into sociology there.

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(Posted as xens)
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(17-Feb-2004 at 16:27)
Quote:
(Originally posted by Sygnal)

I think the world of Islam, at least, all Islam that isn't Shia. Shi'ites give the rest of the relgion a bad name, in my opinion. I've studied a variety of things, and Islam is one of the most interesting things I've studied. To my knowledge, it's the only religon that has the instructions to build an egalitarian society written right in it's holy book.
Why are you so prejudicial about shi'ites?

Quote:
Jihad doesn't have to be about violence, even in the resisting an unjust ruler way. It can be by fighting from the inside. Osama certainly did have the means to fight from the inside, but instead, he chose to fight with violence. Also, groups like the Hezbollah, look at the accomplishments that iraeli-palestinean peace achieved when they simply sat down and talked it over; Palestine has it's own territory now, officially recognized. Violence is not the way to achieve your goals, not in a world where there's others, capable of even more violence, at least, but that's just getting into sociology there
.

Correct, jihad doesen't have to be about violence, it has been described as a strugle for the principles of islam. This can be a inner struggle to remain in the right path, an active commited work for charity purposes, or a defence of fellow muslims againts an enemy of islam who is prejudicating muslims (this can be done in several ways).

Palestine still hasn't it's own territory, Israeli still continue to make raids into palestinian teriitory, bombing inside palestine, demolishing homes (they demolished around 2000 palestinian homes, in the 2-3 years following the beginning of the entifada. source: CNN), there is also the case of the inocents Israeli murder inside palestine (it has been reported that in a period of over 6 months, 3 foreign reporters, clearely marked as such were killed inside palestine. Now imagine how many of those "mistakes" happen to people not clearelly marked as reporters).

"The supreme victory is to win without doing battle."- Sun Tzu
"Even if all the experts agreed they might still be wrong!"-so say the experts
"A wise man is impartial but not neutral a fool is neutral but not impartial."-don't know who said it
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(17-Feb-2004 at 18:15)


I don't like shi'ites because they are willingly led by leader after leader that openly condones terrorism, I don't like the shi'ites because the only things they, as a people, never seem to construct anything noteworthy and relevant to the world.

In contrast, I like the Sunnis because, even though they occasionally have bad leaders, the majority of their leaders throughout history have been kind and benevolent, I feel they embody everything that is good about Islam, whereas the shi'ites seem like their own religon entirely sometimes, due to the fact that they only seem to want to follow the pillars that please them. I see little example of shi'ites living to serve Allah, so much as they live to stick to obscure and violent beliefs that were never truly a part of Islam, contrary to what a shi'ite might say.

Oh yes, any statements I make about shi'ites are entirely my opinion and not that of Utopia Temple.

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#12  
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Posts: 252/291
(17-Feb-2004 at 23:22)


Well since you guys brought up the leaders of Islam, how is the Islamic organization structured? Someone pointed out that different schools teach different interpretations and laws; but how is the leadership handled? Such as is there a leadership council for the Sunnis, or just one top guy? Do the Shi'ites follow a similar leadership structure?

"To be conscious that you are ignorant is a great step to knowledge" -Disraeli
"As for me, all I know is that I know nothing" - Socrates
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(17-Feb-2004 at 23:31)
hmm...come to think of it, I've heard that some moslems do indeed have some kind of religious leader that deserve a considerably amount of loyalty from his followers (yes, it must be a male)...ofcourse, those who are included to this 'kind' of islam claims that it is one of the righteous ways that is already ruled by the prophet himself...
about those 73 branches, I suppose my friend really showed me the story from some excerpts of his book, and it is claimed to be said by the prophet (it's in arabic, though)
but again, if Islam really is divided into so many branches, should we make such generalization about it?

Even in The world of black and white, there's always grey.
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(17-Feb-2004 at 23:43)


I'm not as sure about Sunnia, but in Shia, they have a central leader, and this leader has to be related to Muhammad through Akbar. However, there's lots of people related to Muhammad through Akbar, so to further pick who's to be the leader, they simply chose the person who's the most Muhammad-like in spirit and action. Sufis don't have leaders, and I don't think that wierd Javanese version of Islam has a leader either.

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(18-Feb-2004 at 01:20)


I find it interesting that we're talking about all religion and noone has mentioned the religion that is about all religion

the Baha'i faith.
THis website has some info about it for those who've never heard of it
http://www.bahai.org/
I took this paragraph right off the website to give a brief synopsis of it for those not willing to check out the website
"Bahá'u'lláh taught that there is one God Who progressively reveals His will to humanity. Each of the great religions brought by the Messengers of God - Moses, Krishna, Buddha, Zoroaster, Jesus, Muhammad - represents a successive stage in the spiritual development of civilization. Bahá'u'lláh, the most recent Messenger in this line, has brought teachings that address the moral and spiritual challenges of the modern world."

I'm not personally Baha'i, but A close friend of mine is.
He told me something once that I'll always remember.

he said," Kellem, you know what i like about being Baha'i? Everyone says 'I'm right and your wrong!' and I can say 'I'm right, and so are you!"
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(19-Feb-2004 at 04:57)
funny you should mention that I think my teacher is that. Back to the Islamic system of government Sygnal mentioned the Shiite and Suffis so I will mention those who follow the prophet's way. First off, the Prophet Mohammed PBUH never said who was to be the leader of Islam. Of course while he was still alive people would come to him for advice and such but after he passed away. The Muslims wanted a leader so thier were mainly two groups who each wanted someone from thier group to rule. To settle this they made the Prophets best friend the Calipha. eventually a council was made by the most learned in Islam and they saw the most capapable learned and just cantidates. They allowed voting for who was best suited. Generaly the rulers did not want to rule as it was a huge responsibility they would be asked about infront of God on the day of judgement. Another thing when you think of rulers of Islam dont think of extravagent palaces and such. In fact we have a story about the second Calipha after the prophet his name was Omar. An ambasador of the Kingdom of Persia had come to speak with the Calipha and was travelling thru the area looking for the palace of the Muslim leader. He found a man resting under a palm tree and asked where the Calipha was, the man responded by saiyng he was the Calipha the ambasador was astonished and amazed that Omar wasnt afraid of assasins or cared nothing for luxury and such and could rest withought guards under a palm tree.
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(Posted as Bokke)
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(19-Feb-2004 at 10:58)


Just a question, i'm not sure if you're a hard core theologian, and this is more about Islamic Scripture, but anyway

What is your opinion on the Satanic Verses? Have you read the book by Salman Rushdie? Do you agree or disagree that the verses are genuine and shake the very foundation of Islamic belief?

Also, do you have any explanation as to why the Archangel Gibreel, and the Angel of Extermination Iz'rail are given so much prominence in Islam - as opposed to the Gabriel and Azrael of Judeo-Christian belief, who are given strictly minor roles?

Perhaps a little obscure, but I am curious
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(19-Feb-2004 at 19:28)
Quote:
(Originally posted by Bokke)

What is your opinion on the Satanic Verses? Have you read the book by Salman Rushdie? Do you agree or disagree that the verses are genuine and shake the very foundation of Islamic belief?

Also, do you have any explanation as to why the Archangel Gibreel, and the Angel of Extermination Iz'rail are given so much prominence in Islam - as opposed to the Gabriel and Azrael of Judeo-Christian belief, who are given strictly minor roles?

Perhaps a little obscure, but I am curious
hmm...I've heard about this kind of book, but I haven't read it..is it still in the market though? but again, even if it is indeed from the original verse, I suppose that the meaning in islamic holy book should be as vague and "less" literally just like bible or other book (although I haven't had the chance to look at torah) it seems that many people can intrepet its meaning based on their own desire if it is without guidance...but again, I should read the Salman Rushdie's book first

hmm...could you tell us more about these angels?

Even in The world of black and white, there's always grey.
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(19-Feb-2004 at 21:30)
So far, most people in this forum understand the true meaning of Jihad, and that's ultra cool. Let me reiterate:
Jihad is a struggle within oneself, to combat his sinful desires and to better himself each day and moment. Jihad is also the struggle to uphold the religion. And only when the religion is directly threaten, such as invasion or open insult/ridicule, is a Muslim told to protect it, but not necessarily by violence, but through the diplomacy or compromise first, and then only through the last resort : war. But I sincerely think that most things that threaten Islam nowadays won't bring us to the last step.

Islam itself does not have one leader, in the sense that nobody answers to one single person not since the days of Prophet Muhammad S.A.W. These days, Muslim should answer only to Allah. Yes, there are the Imams and Alims, but they are teachers and counsellors, and are respected for their knowledge.

Concerning the angels (I know them by the name Malaikat). There are countless angels, and the number is only known by Allah. There are eleven angels which are actually given prominence in Islam, due to the importance of their duties. The way I see it, Jibril ar-Ruhul-Amin (Gabriel) and Iz'rail are not really given prominence, but just that they happen to be "popular". Concerning the eleven angels, I would gladly tell you guys about them if you really want to know.

About the Satanic Verses, I haven't read them, but I know that it is branded "haram" by most Muslim countries, due to it's content. If I'm not mistaken, Iran had even imposed a fatwa against Salman Rushdie, and that's why he's in protection right now.

Last edited by Tar Haervantur, 19-Feb-2004 at 21:31.
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