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Posts: 173/1288
(28-Jan-2004 at 03:21)


Like I said. How can you know what joy is unless you have felt sadness to compare to it?

(\ /)
( . .)
c('')('')
#201  
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(Posted as RavEMasteR)
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(28-Jan-2004 at 03:36)


So we're his guinea pigs for him to test evil?

Religion is the mental disease of the masses.
"Once again, religion is like sniffing gasoline. Both cause permanant brain damage." -- Obsidian
#202  
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(28-Jan-2004 at 03:40)


No. He doesn't need to test evil. We must be exposed to evil to know good and progress. Just as the diamond analogy stated. Pressure turns coal into diamond. Trial and hardship builds character and makes us better. Makes us smarter. Makes us more like God.

(\ /)
( . .)
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#203  
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(28-Jan-2004 at 03:57)


Quote:
(Originally posted by muirgein)

And what about the Extremists now? What about the people who are beating up gays or hanging black people because they take one specific meaning from the bible? What about those who bomb abortion clinics or sniper abortion doctors? What about those who are assholes because they believe their god is the right and only one?

What about all those people?
Deny them all you will, but they exist as a large part of your flock.
I would like to say that the Uni-bomber is clinicially insane ( that was one of the people responible for those bombings?).

and we've been over this the KKK was a racially movitated group.

what do you want me to say? I'm sorry that assholes have twisted my faith and hurt others. thats all I can say.

militant Liberal Christian..funny string of words I got there
"when life gives you Lemons eat them whole..Peal and all"
-the great Ipoc
UNITE! SPARK THE FIRE!
#204  
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(Posted as RavEMasteR)
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(28-Jan-2004 at 05:58)


Quote:
(Originally posted by MAPS)

No. He doesn't need to test evil. We must be exposed to evil to know good and progress. Just as the diamond analogy stated. Pressure turns coal into diamond. Trial and hardship builds character and makes us better. Makes us smarter. Makes us more like God.
*Wonders why the more extreme Christians always have the notion of becoming like God*

Religion is the mental disease of the masses.
"Once again, religion is like sniffing gasoline. Both cause permanant brain damage." -- Obsidian
#205  
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(28-Jan-2004 at 18:58)
Quote:
(Originally posted by MAPS)
No. He doesn't need to test evil. We must be exposed to evil to know good and progress. Just as the diamond analogy stated. Pressure turns coal into diamond. Trial and hardship builds character and makes us better. Makes us smarter. Makes us more like God.
Look at it from the perspective of the coal and the transformation to diamond may be a lot less fun. Perhaps God wants to harden us for some purpose of his or just so that he can admire the final result. but that doesn't mean it is in our interest to be exposed to all this hardships. Would you like to be a new Job?
#206  
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Posts: 179/1288
(28-Jan-2004 at 20:59)


Quote:
(Originally posted by Bernel)

Look at it from the perspective of the coal and the transformation to diamond may be a lot less fun. Perhaps God wants to harden us for some purpose of his or just so that he can admire the final result. but that doesn't mean it is in our interest to be exposed to all this hardships. Would you like to be a new Job?
You can't enjoy the hamburger if you don't kill the cow.

Things put on us may not be enjoyable but they are for our benefit.

Quote:
(Originally posted by RavEMasteR)

*Wonders why the more extreme Christians always have the notion of becoming like God*
Because the goal of every human should be to make themselves better. You should leave the world better then it was when you entered it.

(\ /)
( . .)
c('')('')

Last edited by MAPS, 28-Jan-2004 at 21:01.
#207  
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(28-Jan-2004 at 23:48)


Quote:
(Originally posted by RavEMasteR)

*Wonders why the more extreme Christians always have the notion of becoming like God*
you should get its a very humanistic notion being the supreme atheist and all

militant Liberal Christian..funny string of words I got there
"when life gives you Lemons eat them whole..Peal and all"
-the great Ipoc
UNITE! SPARK THE FIRE!
#208  
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(29-Jan-2004 at 00:08)


Quote:
(Originally posted by Night Angel)

Actually, MAPS, God did create evil. Here's why. Without evil, how can you know what's good? How do you know the light until you see the dark.
how can someone create something that is the absence of something else?

Quote:
How do you make a diamond? You take a piece of coal and put it under extreme pressure. It's the same way with us. We are God's treasure. Now he's trying to purify us. He's putting us under such extreme pressure and trials, so that we can realize the difference between good and evil.
i don't agree. that would mean we're not rational beings and don't have free will.

there are some things that are good in themselves and thus do not need to be compared to the opposite in order to be appreciated.

Quote:
He didn't create all things. Somethings have always existed just as he has.
Aquinas has a controversial teaching that everything in the universe has been with God for eternity, that we're all eternal.
#209  
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(29-Jan-2004 at 00:14)


Quote:
(Originally posted by Aletheia)
i don't agree. that would mean we're not rational beings and don't have free will.

there are some things that are good in themselves and thus do not need to be compared to the opposite in order to be appreciated.
Then how would you know the difference?
How can something be good in itself? You don't know what good is. It's like if your completely color blind and everything is black and white, how could you know what people were talking about when they talk about color? You can't describe color. You just have to experience it.

Quote:
(Originally posted by Aletheia)
Aquinas has a controversial teaching that everything in the universe has been with God for eternity, that we're all eternal.
I agree with that. Everything has always existed in one form or another.

(\ /)
( . .)
c('')('')
#210  
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(29-Jan-2004 at 10:45)
Quote:
You can't enjoy the hamburger if you don't kill the cow.
you can if you're god...just create the hamburger exactly how you want it, instead of creating a cow, then killing it, then using it to make a hamburger

Quote:
How do you make a diamond? You take a piece of coal and put it under extreme pressure. It's the same way with us. We are God's treasure. Now he's trying to purify us. He's putting us under such extreme pressure and trials, so that we can realize the difference between good and evil.
well, god is all powerful and hence can do anything, like create diamonds without extreme pressure. I would think if he wanted X he would make X; and if there is X, it is only because he want X. therefore the only reason there is any trouble is because god specifically wants there to be trouble.

Of course, this only follows if you accept god as being able to do anything (which voids any argument about god causing X such that Y would happen; he could easily just cause Y).

_-^-_ OH NO! MY WOOLEN SUIT HAS NYLON IN IT! BETTER FIRE UP THE INCINERATOR AND GET MYSELF A GOAT! A female one...god doesn't want a male one...
#211  
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(29-Jan-2004 at 21:14)


Quote:
(Originally posted by Rabbousamai)

you can if you're god...just create the hamburger exactly how you want it, instead of creating a cow, then killing it, then using it to make a hamburger



well, god is all powerful and hence can do anything, like create diamonds without extreme pressure. I would think if he wanted X he would make X; and if there is X, it is only because he want X. therefore the only reason there is any trouble is because god specifically wants there to be trouble.

Of course, this only follows if you accept god as being able to do anything (which voids any argument about god causing X such that Y would happen; he could easily just cause Y).
I've already established God can't do everything. He can only do things that NEED to be done. He doesn't have the power to screw around and do things that mean nothing. That would mean he could sin. This contradicts his very nature and would cause him to cease to be God.

There is only one way for us to become Gods. We have to earn it with our own free will. We can't be forced to be Gods.
That was Satan's plan. To take our freewill.

(\ /)
( . .)
c('')('')
#212  
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(30-Jan-2004 at 02:37)


Quote:
(Originally posted by MAPS)

Then how would you know the difference?
How can something be good in itself? You don't know what good is. It's like if your completely color blind and everything is black and white, how could you know what people were talking about when they talk about color? You can't describe color. You just have to experience it.
i do not know if i can explain it to you properly but it is also Aquinas' teaching. examples of things that are good in themselves are forgiveness, beauty (transcendental beauty), and many others. many things are good in themselves even when not compared to its direct opposite and humans can and do recognize them. i will look up the rest for you to be able to explain his point. but saying that the only way a human being can know something is through its opposite is giving less credit to the human intellect. it is not the only way.
#213  
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(30-Jan-2004 at 02:47)


Quote:
(Originally posted by Aletheia)

i do not know if i can explain it to you properly but it is also Aquinas' teaching. examples of things that are good in themselves are forgiveness, beauty (transcendental beauty), and many others. many things are good in themselves even when not compared to its direct opposite and humans can and do recognize them. i will look up the rest for you to be able to explain his point. but saying that the only way a human being can know something is through its opposite is giving less credit to the human intellect. it is not the only way.
Your right. It must be tough to explain because I still don't understand it.

What is forgiveness without things like grudges and holding hatred toward somebody to contrast what forgiveness is?

How do you know what beauty is unless you have that which is ugly?

You can't say "this is good" until you have something worse than it for comparison. Otherwise it's not good it's just THERE. If there was no pain what would pleasure be? It wouldn't be good or enjoyable or preferable. It's just the feeling you experience all the time and holds no value over it's non existeant counter part.

(\ /)
( . .)
c('')('')
#214  
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(30-Jan-2004 at 04:17)


Quote:
(Originally posted by MAPS)

If you can't argue without insulting someone, don't expect anyone to respect you enough to take your posts seriously.
As I have always said, practive what you preach



Quote:
The universe.
Now prove God doesn't exist.
And how exactly does that answer the question?



Quote:
Prove that it isn't.
You still fail to provide accurate, hostorically based, or atleast compelling evidance.

Quote:
I can't prove this anymore than you can prove that yesterdays events are historical fact. You can't prove yesterdays events are fact because the evidence (news articles etc.) were made by man and are therefore flawed.
I agree, things made by man are always flawed, there is no way around it, but, yet again, you still fail to answer the question.


Quote:
See answer to #4.



That's like asking why "frying pan" means a metal pan with a handle that is used for frying foods. It just does.
But do you think that just fits together just a little too easily? The kid is name Jesus Christ, and then, he just happens to become a savior?

My name means "the crowned one" in either greek/roman or whatever, but does that mean Im gonna become the next king of some contry? or of the world? no.


Quote:
The gospels are events as they occured from the point of view of different people. Of course different people will see the same thing but interpret it differently. Just as people read the same bible and interpret it differently.
and yet, how does interpretation answer the question


Quote:
Prove that science is always 100% correct.
I will admitt, science is never 100% correct, but that is what science is: Trial and error.

I have seen science, I have not seen god.



Quote:
Whether two things contradict or not is all in the opinion of the individual.
Really? Ive got best friends that are hard christians, that agree with most if not all of my views. They know im not trying to drag them from christianity, but they know I disagree with it, and they admitt, I am convinceing.



Quote:
You shouldn't until you have gained a testimony of the bible.
IS there one post where you dont refer to the bible when answering a question?

Quote:
See answer to #9.

To answer your questions as a whole, don't ask people to prove things you can't disprove either.
Actually answer the questions next time ah?

Quote:
In the first place, why did the all-loving God throw us in this ghetto? Does he enjoy seeing us suffer and become corrupted? Or does he have nothing better to do?

MAPS, if Satan was created by Lucifer by rebelling, your God is supposedly ALL KNOWING. He should know that Lucifer will rebel, and Satan will be born. Why o why did he do that?

And, why did he throw us here? Coz of some goon who decided to eat some fruit way back when? Doesn't sound very fair to me. It's like when a Christian commits murder, all Christians should be thrown into jail, or executed.

I just saw your reply, and man, MAPS, if Satan will help us in our salvation, why don't we all join Satanism then? I don't see how evil can help mankind progress. The most I've seen is corruption and murder.

Also, there is no sin, if there is no God. His laws are absurd, and I don't see any reason why being yourself, such as a homosexual, be wrong.

Quote:
How do you make a diamond? You take a piece of coal and put it under extreme pressure. It's the same way with us. We are God's treasure. Now he's trying to purify us. He's putting us under such extreme pressure and trials, so that we can realize the difference between good and evil.

I hold something against this post, which is why it's the only one I bother to quote.

If you Christians are the diamonds, what are the atheists/agnostics then? Dung? Dirty black coal???

Don't be so full of your God man.
I agree completley.

Quote:
No. He doesn't need to test evil. We must be exposed to evil to know good and progress. Just as the diamond analogy stated. Pressure turns coal into diamond. Trial and hardship builds character and makes us better. Makes us smarter. Makes us more like God.
so we have to be like god to have good character? We have to be more like god to be smarter?

Quote:
Because the goal of every human should be to make themselves better. You should leave the world better then it was when you entered it.
I agree. but I still dont see why we have to become christian to do that.

Quote:
I've already established God can't do everything. He can only do things that NEED to be done. He doesn't have the power to screw around and do things that mean nothing. That would mean he could sin. This contradicts his very nature and would cause him to cease to be God.

There is only one way for us to become Gods. We have to earn it with our own free will. We can't be forced to be Gods.
That was Satan's plan. To take our freewill.
So he knows everything, but he cant do everything, odd. There you go with "god cant sin because hes god". Say I am a dog. Just because I am a dog, doesnt mean I cant climb trees.Just because god is god, doesnt mean he cant sin.

(`._.[ ]._.)
.: :. Lord Anubis .: :.
R.I.P. Kayla Renee Winterfeldt; born 28th of October 2004, died 28th of October 2004
I am for freedom of religion and against all maneuvers to bring about a legal ascendancy of one sect over another. ~ Thomas Jefferson
#215  
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(30-Jan-2004 at 06:02)
Quote:
I've already established God can't do everything. He can only do things that NEED to be done. He doesn't have the power to screw around and do things that mean nothing. That would mean he could sin. This contradicts his very nature and would cause him to cease to be God.
well, that contradicts the standard all-powerful god of christianity, as well as acquinas's definition of god as a being 'of which no greater can be imagined'. Having god only able to do things that need to be done basically places him back into the ordinary universe again, which makes him rather un-godly, so to speak. I mean, what if god really want's to sin?

Quote:
That was Satan's plan. To take our freewill.
well, you would think if god didn't want him there, god would remove satan. unless satan needs to be there...

_-^-_ OH NO! MY WOOLEN SUIT HAS NYLON IN IT! BETTER FIRE UP THE INCINERATOR AND GET MYSELF A GOAT! A female one...god doesn't want a male one...
#216  
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(Posted as RavEMasteR)
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Posts: 1198/2492
(30-Jan-2004 at 06:16)


Quote:
(Originally posted by MAPS)

That was Satan's plan. To take our freewill.
Umm..., excuse me, but Satan's plan is to take our freewill???

I mean, I've heard of Satanic cults that encourages it's members to let loose, to do whatever they want without caring for rules or laws. Thus, we have those freaky orgies..., coz some people just wanna do so. So, which one is the one who wants to take our freewill again???

Religion is the mental disease of the masses.
"Once again, religion is like sniffing gasoline. Both cause permanant brain damage." -- Obsidian
#217  
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(30-Jan-2004 at 21:56)


You don't understand. If Satan had his way you wouldn't have choices at all.

If I put two candy bars on a table and asked you to choose which one you want, you could choose right?

If Satan had his way you coudn't choose. You couldn't will yourself to pick one. He would make the decission for you. You wouldn't able to do anything. You just have to sit there and let things happen to you.

(\ /)
( . .)
c('')('')
#218  
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Posts: 198/1288
(30-Jan-2004 at 22:08)


Quote:
(Originally posted by Lord Anubis)
Actually answer the questions next time ah?
I did answer them. Obviously you're not "thinking outside the box" enough to understand what I was getting at. I answered them by asking another question. It showed that you can't disprove anything any more than I can prove it.

Quote:
(Originally posted by Lord Anubis)
I agree completley.
Did you even read what I said to his post?

Quote:
(Originally posted by Lord Anubis)
so we have to be like god to have good character? We have to be more like god to be smarter?
Ummm....Yes!
God is the smartest being so when you grow smarter you are becoming more like God.

Quote:
(Originally posted by Lord Anubis) I agree. but I still dont see why we have to become christian to do that.
Did I say you have to be Christian to do become a better person? No. Read more carefully before you post.

Quote:
(Originally posted by Lord Anubis)
So he knows everything, but he cant do everything, odd. There you go with "god cant sin because hes god". Say I am a dog. Just because I am a dog, doesnt mean I cant climb trees.Just because god is god, doesnt mean he cant sin.
That's a very poor analogy.

The definition of sin: Falling away from God or spiritual death.

Now explain to me how God can fall away from God.

(\ /)
( . .)
c('')('')
#219  
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Posts: 199/1288
(30-Jan-2004 at 22:17)


Quote:
(Originally posted by Rabbousamai)

well, that contradicts the standard all-powerful god of christianity, as well as acquinas's definition of god as a being 'of which no greater can be imagined'. Having god only able to do things that need to be done basically places him back into the ordinary universe again, which makes him rather un-godly, so to speak. I mean, what if god really want's to sin?



well, you would think if god didn't want him there, god would remove satan. unless satan needs to be there...
Satan needs to be there. that's what I just said a few post ago. There must be opposite in all things. Without evil, there is no good.

How does not being able to sin or screw around doing meaningless crap limit God's power?

Example:
I'm God. My work and my glory is to bring to pass the immortality of man. That is my goal. That is all I am concernd with.

What does it accomplish to suddenly, and without reason, transform the earth into a big strawberry pop tart? It makes no sense and has no meaning so why do it?
Who cares if I can't do things that I don't need to do?

(\ /)
( . .)
c('')('')

Last edited by MAPS, 30-Jan-2004 at 22:20.
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