[MAPS]

Quote:

(Originally posted by RavEMasteR)

What's sad is that God claims He gave us Free Will, but yet we cannot do what we want? But yet he'll kill us if we do something he doesn't like???

I wonder what the hell happened to free will. We are not slaves of God, he gave us free will. We have the choice to do anything and everything we like, so why is he killing us???

If this thread makes you angry, then I guess every other thread will too. The point here is debate, we argue with evidence, not just plain insults backed by nothing.

Free will does not mean doing whatever you want without consequence. When you do something wrong, you must be punished. If God, in his infinite wisdom, finds that you must be punished by death for your sins, then so be it.

When you do something that breaks the laws of your country, you can be thrown in jail and lose your freedom.

Doing Right= Freedom
Doing Wrong= Punishment

It's a very simple concept. If you don't think people should be punished (killed) for their sins, then you are over looking the fact that they SINNED. They were not innocent.They did something wrong. God is justified in doing what must be done for the benefit of the human race.(In the salem witch trials, PEOPLE were killing the accused. Not God.)

And I was not insulting anyone. If anyone was offended, then my apologies. I am simply defending christianity because noone else seems to be doing that here. Both views should be heard if there is to be an arguement.

[MAPS]

Quote:

(Originally posted by Lord Anubis)

And one last thing! Christianity is supposed to believe in the equality of all religions? How can that be when it was Chrisitanity who took the Wicca god and made him their devil (this is why Wicca's dont believe in the devil. They had no knowledge of it, it was created)

Christianity makes up a shit and steals stuff from other religions to make it look like the supreme and best religion. Its Bullshit if you ask me.

The stereotypical devil or satan with horns and half goat and red with a pitchfork may resemble the wiccan god, but that does not mean that christians believe that to be what satan is. That is just a halloween costume. Satan does not have a body. Satan is a spirit. I challenge you to show me the verse in the bible that states that satan looks anything like the description I just mentioned. The red goat-man is just a representation. I personally don't believe in it at all but it is widely accepted nonetheless.

[dothackRAVE]

Quote:

(Originally posted by MAPS)

Free will does not mean doing whatever you want without consequence. When you do something wrong, you must be punished. If God, in his infinite wisdom, finds that you must be punished by death for your sins, then so be it.

When you do something that breaks the laws of your country, you can be thrown in jail and lose your freedom.

Doing Right= Freedom
Doing Wrong= Punishment

It's a very simple concept. If you don't think people should be punished (killed) for their sins, then you are over looking the fact that they SINNED. They were not innocent.They did something wrong. God is justified in doing what must be done for the benefit of the human race.(In the salem witch trials, PEOPLE were killing the accused. Not God.)

And I was not insulting anyone. If anyone was offended, then my apologies. I am simply defending christianity because noone else seems to be doing that here. Both views should be heard if there is to be an arguement.

Actually, there are people on the front line defending Christianity, but they are fighting a losing war anyway, so some of them gave up, I assume.

So God says I have free will but I will burn in hell if I break his rules? That's odd. That's like giving you an imaginary choice, something like, give up your possessions or die. You don't really have a choice. Like, sink or swim? That's a very sadistic God there. Doesn't make him any different from the thief who threatens you with a gun.

[PatrioticSpirit]

Quote:

Actually, there are people on the front line defending Christianity, but they are fighting a losing war anyway, so some of them gave up, I assume.

Some of us don't defend christianity (little c) We defend the Bible and the teachings of Jesus.

[Rabbousamai]

Quote:

It's a very simple concept. If you don't think people should be punished (killed) for their sins, then you are over looking the fact that they SINNED. They were not innocent.They did something wrong. God is justified in doing what must be done for the benefit of the human race.(In the salem witch trials, PEOPLE were killing the accused. Not God.)

well, its a very good defence of the view of 'kill them all and let god sort them out...'

[Apeiron]

MAPS,

if I take a bunch of chemicals and build them molecule by molecule together untill I've got a human being then do I own that person? What if I make a clone?
My parents made me, and they pay my food, clothes, shelter etc. Do they own me? I think not.

The God you are describing is not God, it's Satan! In fact, throughout the bible I must say I think the Devil is a whole lot cooler than your God.

Quote:

(Anubis)
Then what is the purpose of these "vegence Angels" or whatever that killed people cuz they sinned

Yeah, those guys who killed the Egyptian babies at passover for example. Yet another 'fair' punishment of God? Killing the children of an entire country because of a decision made by the Pharaoh - a decision which God made him take.

Quote:

(Patriotic Spirit)
What does Jesus say in this book? Do you know?

Yes, I've read the entire bible. "His father" is a big ass throughout the entire Old Testament, it's very easy to criticise (sp?) his actions. In the New Testament, it's mainly Paul who can be critisized (sp?) for his statements about women and homosexuals.

Don't think that Jesus was perfect though; after all he (did)...
...kill a tree because there was no fruit on it! What insanity makes a God kill a tree? (Mark 11:13-14)
...shows in Matthew 5:17 that he supports the cruel laws of the Old Testament.
...kills a bunch of innocent pigs (Matthew 8:32)(Mark 5:12-13)
...talk in parables deliberately so that less people will be saved and go to heaven (Matthew 13:10-15)(Mark 4:11-12)
...will throw people that he doesn't like into an everlasting fire (Matthew 25:41)
...critizes people for not killing their own children (Mark 7:9-10)
...o what the hell...just see http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com

[Drizzt]

I believe that nobody should kill another.

Quote:

(Originally posted by Lord Anubis)

FIRST OFF LET ME SAY I HAVE NOTHING AGAINST CHRISTIANS, AS ALL OF MY FRIENDS ARE CHRISTIANS. The Bible states that Jesus heard the voice of god.

Obviously so. Jesus is God. Whenever he speaks, he hears the voice of God because he hears himself speak.

[dothackRAVE]

Quote:

(Originally posted by Black Fighter)
Don't think that Jesus was perfect though; after all he (did)...
...kill a tree because there was no fruit on it! What insanity makes a God kill a tree? (Mark ##:##-14)
...shows in Matthew ##:## that he supports the cruel laws of the Old Testament.
...kills a bunch of innocent pigs (Matthew ##:##)(Mark ##:##-13)
...talk in parables deliberately so that less people will be saved and go to heaven (Matthew ##:##-15)(Mark ##:##-12)
...will throw people that he doesn't like into an everlasting fire (Matthew ##:##)
...critizes people for not killing their own children (Mark ##:##-10)
...o what the hell...just see http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com

ROFL!!!

My my, didn't know God was THAT bad. Pretty sadistic ain't it???

[PatrioticSpirit]

Quote:

...kill a tree because there was no fruit on it! What insanity makes a God kill a tree? (Mark 11:13-14)

improper translation; Jesus did not kill a tree.

Quote:

...kills a bunch of innocent pigs (Matthew 8:32)(Mark 5:12-13)

Jesus did not send them over the cliff; the unclean spirits did.

Quote:

...talk in parables deliberately so that less people will be saved and go to heaven (Matthew 13:10-15)(Mark 4:11-12)

If this is all you've got, you have a poor argument indeed.

Quote:

...critizes people for not killing their own children (Mark 7:9-10)

Not even close; a deliberate misrepresentation to bolster your OPINION!
Well you may have read the Bible, (but I doubt it) You certainly have not studied the Bible.

[doth2]

Patriotic SPirit a good answer I totally agree with you. Just too lazy to prove haha. These peeps are just trying to make God look bad by stating half truth and not truth in its entirety. This just goes to show their lack of understanding. Sighz.

[Apeiron]

Apart from you not replying to all of the texts I pointed out, the ones you did reply to are not refuted or anything close to that at all. Your reply is very, very weak.

"improper translation; Jesus did not kill a tree."

Ah good, so áll translations are wrong? I looked it up in 6 different Dutch translations and 4 different English translations (there was an argument about this story before on these boards).

What is the story supposed to be like according to you? I'm very curious now, because it is told in 2 of the gospels so translators got it wrong both times then.

One more thing...I'm attend school at a Gymnasium, in English that means a school where you sport but in the Netherlands it's what they call "Grammar school" in English. So I get Latin and Greek. I'm in my 6th year now, so have had 6 years of Latin.
I have both a Greek and a Latin bible here, and though they certainly aren't my best subjects I have no idea what would be a better translation of the original text. Jesus certainly killed a tree according to the bible!

Jesus did not send them over the cliff; the unclean spirits did.

And who told the "unclean spirits" to go into those pigs? After this <sarcasm>very smart</sarcasm> thing Jesus did the people there of course asked him to leave.

If this is all you've got, you have a poor argument indeed.

It's not all I've got, I've put a few others in my last post and I gave you a link where you can find dozens of more things Jesus did wrong.
In any case, Jesus clearly says here why he talks in parables : to make it so that most people won't understand what he is saying, and therefore won't get into heaven.

Not even close; a deliberate misrepresentation to bolster your OPINION!

Then what does it say? I certainly read Jesus critisizing people for not killing their childeren, at the very least he's defending that insane law.

Well you may have read the Bible, (but I doubt it) You certainly have not studied the Bible.

It is certainly not of my concern if you believe I've read the entire bible or not, though I did. That I do not agree with your view, does not mean that I have not studied it.
As I said before, I've even translated parts of the bible myself from Latin and read some in Greek too.

[PatrioticSpirit]

Quote:

Apart from you not replying to all of the texts I pointed out,

PUBLIC NOTICE! I will respond to any question, statement, arguement, as I choose, or not at all if I choose!

Parables, are stories ment to convey a lesson or message;
There were and are people who will not understand because of many reasons; Greed and Hate (I think you may be an example of the latter) are a couple. He's not teaching in parables so they wont get it. He already knew he could draw these people a road map and they still would'nt get it. Read some current material authored by someone who is jewish, it most likely be ladend with stories "parables" thats just how they do things.

Quote:

I gave you a link

Yes I've bookmarked it; I'll visit it later, it looks like fun!

Quote:

It is certainly not of my concern if you believe I've read the entire bible or not, though I did. That I do not agree with your view, does not mean that I have not studied it.

There is a big difference in reading the Bible and studying the Bible; At least in my opinion. Its the difference in reading the commandment that says don't kill and understanding it means don't murder; two different things.

I believe (opinion) your hate (and others on these boards)for the Bible and God will not allow you to objectivly learn about the Bible and the teachings contained in it.

I am however glad you have and do read the Bible, Because from your post I assume you are still a young person and may come someday to not hate God and the Bible!

Here is a test; What is the meaning of the teaching by Jesus to "turn the other cheek"?
Yes this is a trick question.

[Craus]

Quote:

(Originally posted by PatrioticSpirit)
Here is a test; What is the meaning of the teaching by Jesus to "turn the other cheek"?
Yes this is a trick question.

Hmm... Let's seeeeee. It meanes that you instead of do "an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth" you turn the other cheek.

[MAPS]

BF, let me explain something to you. God=GOD! Dont you get it? He is the all mighty, all knowing God of the entire universe! It is impossible for him to do anything wrong. God cannot sin! Ever! No matter how hard you try, you can not truthfully say that God can sin. It's not possible. everything God does is right. That is what defines him to be perfect. That is what defines him to be God! If God sins, he will cease to be God. If there is no God, there is no order, there is no light, there is no good. Nothing would exist. All that you know would cease to be. You keep saying that God is doing things wrong. But you fail to comprehend that God does not do things according to what you think is right. We are to do things according to what
God knows is right. He is our example, not the other way around. I don't care what it is. If God does it, it must be right. You can continue to believe what you want but I just had to attempt to explain this one more time!

[Craus]

Thanks for the explanation ?? What's your point?

[MAPS]

The point is that when BF refers to God as an "ass" that would mean that God is doing something wrong. This is not possible because (see the above explanation)

[RiverStyx]

Forgive and Forget huh?

I dont agree. If someone does something really bad to you, your just going to forgive and forget and not do anything about it? On 9-11, did we "forgive and forget" Osama? No, we went after his ass.

That is some bible if it tells you that all sins can be forgiven, and that no matter what the other person does to you, its allright because you can FORGIVE AND FORGET.

I agree with practically everybody in this thread. The enitre bible contradicts itself.

Quote:

can not truthfully say that God can sin. It's not possible. everything God does is right. That is what defines him to be perfect. That is what defines him to be God! If God sins, he will cease to be God. If there is no God, there is no order, there is no light, there is no good. Nothing would exist. All that you know would cease to be. You keep saying that God is doing things wrong. But you fail to comprehend that God does not do things according to what you think is right. We are to do things according to what
God knows is right.

You sad little creature. As you should have realized by now, perfection isnt possible, perfection cannot be reached . Even by "GOD".

So let me get this straight, god can murder and its not sin, its right according to "GOD". But if we turn around and do this, we spend the rest of eternity in a pit of fire. That just somehow doesnt fit. Besides, the bible says:Man was made in GOD's image

[MAPS]

Man was made in God's image. That means we look like him. We physically look as he does. What do you mean perfection cannot by reached even by God? That makes no sense! If God was not perfect he would not be God in the first place. If you don't like the way things are done, then you do what you want when you become God. Oh wait, You can't become God. To do that would mean being exactly as the current God is. There is only one perfection. You can't change from what God is and still remain perfect. God can't sin because sin is falling away from God. God can't fall away from himself.
We are his spirit children and we belong to him. He paid for us with the atonement of Christ. If you don't like it, tough. That's the way things are, have always been and always will be.

[MAPS]

I am sorry for double post. Someone please remove it. Thank you.

[Rabbousamai]

well, we're going to have a tough time following god if he changes his mind all the time...