Utopia Temple
Main Forum Page Register an Account for Free! Calendar Frequently Asked Questions about this Board View New Posts Advanced Search Login
  Utopia Temple Forums > General Discussions > Respectable General Discussions > Religious Discussions

« Previous Thread | Next Thread »
Post New Thread Closed Thread
Author Thread
Posts: 31
(02-Mar-2011 at 19:28)


How To Get To Heaven When You Die

ARE YOU 100% SURE THAT IF YOU DIED TODAY THAT YOU WOULD GO TO HEAVEN?

There are some things that you should know:

1. Realize that you are a sinner and in need of a Savior:

Ro 3:23 "For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;"

Ro 3:10 "As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:"

This all began with the story of Adam and Eve in the garden of Eden. God created them perfect, there was no death or sorrow. God told them not to eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. They disobeyed God and as a result, sin entered into the world. The pain which this world sees is the result of sin.

2. Because of our sins, we die both spiritually and physically, but God sent His Son to die so that you can have a chance not to have to go to hell by accepting what He did on the cross for you:

Ro 6:23 "For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord."

Ro 5:8 "But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us. for us."

Every person who has ever lived is a sinner and is not righteous because we do bad things. A sin is a crime against God, just as if you steal something at the store, it is punishable by going to jail. It's the same thing with sin. Even if we lie one time, the punishment is hell, which is a prison for those who commit crimes against God. No matter how well you live your life from then on, you have already committed a sin which will be punished if you are not pardoned. If you commit a crime, and then live as a good citizen you still will go to jail for the crime you committed. Right? Just as the president can pardon a crime so you won't go to jail, Jesus can pardon your sins so that you do not go to hell, and can go to heaven when you die.

3. If you will confess to Jesus Christ that you are a sinner and in need of a Savior, accept Him as Lord and Savior and believe in your heart that He died on the cross and rose from the dead you will be saved.

Joh 1:12 “But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name”

Ro 10:9,10 "that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.."

You cannot get to heaven by being a good person, going to church, baptism or any other way other than by turning to Jesus and asking Him to forgive you for your sins and save you. While these are good things to do, some people believe that they will get to heaven if they do these things, but the bible says that there is only one way to heaven and that is through receiving what Jesus Christ did on the cross for you.

Will you do that today? If you will, you can be 100% sure that you will go to heaven when you die.

DO YOU BELIEVE THAT JESUS CHRIST DIED ON THE CROSS AND ROSE FROM THE DEAD FOR YOUR SINS?

ARE YOU WILLING TO TURN TO JESUS CHRIST FOR SALVATION?

4. If you are willing to accept Jesus Christ as your Lord and Savior please humble yourself before God and pray this prayer to Him from your heart:

"Dear LORD JESUS, I believe that You died on the Cross and Rose from the dead for my sins. I ask you to come into my heart and forgive me for my sins, save me, take me to be with You when I die. I now receive You as my Lord and Savior. Thank You for saving me. In Jesus holy name, Amen."

If you prayed that prayer to God, and meant it with all of your heart, you are now a child of God and will go to heaven when you die.

Now that you are on your way to heaven, you should attend a bible believing church and follow in baptism.
#1  
View Public Profile Find more posts by xfrodobagginsx Add xfrodobagginsx to your Buddy List
Posts: 3828/3983
(03-Mar-2011 at 01:24)


I thought you simply took a left at Duluth.

PS I really think this should be in the religious discussions.

“The law, in its majestic equality, forbids the rich as well as the poor to sleep under bridges, to beg in the streets, and to steal bread.”
#2  
View Public Profile Find more posts by filcher Add filcher to your Buddy List
Posts: 3345/3642
(03-Mar-2011 at 03:38)


If only you people realized you were turning people even further away from ever considering religion when you posted that garbage...

If all else fails, call someone a troll.
that can be fixed... / Ć
#3  
View Public Profile Find more posts by Greeney Add Greeney to your Buddy List
Posts: 1/33
(03-Mar-2011 at 23:08)


Frodo Baggins,

I would like to point out that your user name is a mythical character who lives in a land of sorcery.

What does the Bible say about sorcery and witchcraft? It's an abomination unto the Lord. Yet you are promoting a character from a story that glorifies this abomination. Not to mention that the game of Utopia does as well. So if a single lie can condemn you to hell, what will your participation in this game do? What would the Lord think if he saw you enjoying a movie that promotes examples of this abomination.

You said...
"Even if we lie one time, the punishment is hell, which is a prison for those who commit crimes against God."

Before you made this comment, you quoted Romans 6 verse 23. That scripture indicates that the sinner will die. Yet, you claim the punishment "is a prison" in hell.

You also show scripture that says Christ died for our sins. Yet you think the punishment for sin is a hell prison. So if you think that the punishment is an eternity in a hell prison, then Christ hasn't payed the penalty for our sins. By your reckoning the only way for Christ to pay for our sins is to spend an eternity in a hell prison.

You may want to understand scripture a little better before you start interpreting it to others.
#4  
View Public Profile Find more posts by adam332 Add adam332 to your Buddy List
Posts: 2/31
(06-Mar-2011 at 03:32)


Re: How To Get To Heaven When You Die

Originally Posted by adam332: View Post
Frodo Baggins,

I would like to point out that your user name is a mythical character who lives in a land of sorcery.

What does the Bible say about sorcery and witchcraft? It's an abomination unto the Lord. Yet you are promoting a character from a story that glorifies this abomination. Not to mention that the game of Utopia does as well. So if a single lie can condemn you to hell, what will your participation in this game do? What would the Lord think if he saw you enjoying a movie that promotes examples of this abomination.

You said...
"Even if we lie one time, the punishment is hell, which is a prison for those who commit crimes against God."

Before you made this comment, you quoted Romans 6 verse 23. That scripture indicates that the sinner will die. Yet, you claim the punishment "is a prison" in hell.

You also show scripture that says Christ died for our sins. Yet you think the punishment for sin is a hell prison. So if you think that the punishment is an eternity in a hell prison, then Christ hasn't payed the penalty for our sins. By your reckoning the only way for Christ to pay for our sins is to spend an eternity in a hell prison.

You may want to understand scripture a little better before you start interpreting it to others.
So by your standard, is it ok to watch the wizard of oz? There are witches in the movie. First of all, I'm not participating in witchcraft. It's a movie that happens to have witchcraft in it. It's not glorifying witchcraft. The theme of the movie is about a struggle between good and evil. Frodo is the one who must bear the burden to destroying this evil. I understand the scriptures, but by your assertion here, I doubt you do. 99% of Christians wouldn't have a problem watching LOTR.

Yes Christ is the only way to heaven, that's right.
#5  
View Public Profile Find more posts by xfrodobagginsx Add xfrodobagginsx to your Buddy List
Posts: 3/31
(06-Mar-2011 at 03:33)


Why were the scripture addresses deleted in the original post?
#6  
View Public Profile Find more posts by xfrodobagginsx Add xfrodobagginsx to your Buddy List
Global Moderator
Posts: 1351/1376
(06-Mar-2011 at 05:19)


Re: How To Get To Heaven When You Die

Originally Posted by xfrodobagginsx: View Post
Why were the scripture addresses deleted in the original post?
You're on a fansite for the web-based game Utopia. They're there to block out people posting each others in-game locations.

........Why does the thin grey strand......Ah, you will understand;.......................I should find, for a reprimand
.......Floating up from the forgotten......When I carried my mother downstairs,.....To my gaiety, a few long grey hairs
......Cigarette between my fingers,......A few times only, at the beginning..........On the breast of my coat; and one by one
.....Why does it trouble me?.............Of her soft-foot malady,.......................I watched them float up the dark chimney.
#7  
View Public Profile Find more posts by Swifty Add Swifty to your Buddy List
Posts: 9/33
(06-Mar-2011 at 07:26)


Re: How To Get To Heaven When You Die

Originally Posted by xfrodobagginsx: View Post
So by your standard, is it ok to watch the wizard of oz? There are witches in the movie. First of all, I'm not participating in witchcraft. It's a movie that happens to have witchcraft in it. It's not glorifying witchcraft. The theme of the movie is about a struggle between good and evil. Frodo is the one who must bear the burden to destroying this evil. I understand the scriptures, but by your assertion here, I doubt you do. 99% of Christians wouldn't have a problem watching LOTR.

Yes Christ is the only way to heaven, that's right.
First, it is not by my standard, but by Biblical standard. I mentioned no such standard of my own or of the Christian populous. My answers were based on scripture alone. When you start basing what is right according to what other men do, then you are falling into the trappings of man's thoughts, man's reasoning, and man's doctrines. Such things are constantly warned about throughout the Old and New Testaments.

All men are sinners, even all Christians are sinners. So, basing your perception that 99% do it means I can do it too is Biblically flawed. I hate to use a modern cliche', but what would Jesus do?

Frodo uses his friends to fight this evil, even friends who perform sorcery. This is not a story where the hero overcomes such ungodliness, but instead the hero uses such an abomination to aid him. They are part of the heroes of the tale.

Wizard of OZ has the good witch and the bad witch, so explain to your savior what exactly a good witch is.

If you watch pornography, you aren't participating in it, but do you for one moment think that Christ is happy with you doing so? The non participation concept does not have any Biblical value. Scripture indicates that lustful thoughts are equal to adultery, and hateful thoughts are equal to murder, etc...

To even think of sinful activity with anything less than condemnation is breaking the spirit of the law, whether you have ever broken the letter of the law by performing the actual physical act.

When scripture indicates; wide is the path to destruction, but narrow is the gate to salvation....it isn't speaking of non believers. Read it in context. It is warning believers that most of them will not find salvation. So on judgment day you can claim that "99% of Christians do it Lord", but what will his reply be?

Mat.7
22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
24 Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock:
25 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock.
26 And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand:

Last edited by adam332, 06-Mar-2011 at 07:28.
#8  
View Public Profile Find more posts by adam332 Add adam332 to your Buddy List
Posts: 4/31
(07-Mar-2011 at 22:21)


Re: How To Get To Heaven When You Die

Originally Posted by adam332: View Post
First, it is not by my standard, but by Biblical standard. I mentioned no such standard of my own or of the Christian populous. My answers were based on scripture alone. When you start basing what is right according to what other men do, then you are falling into the trappings of man's thoughts, man's reasoning, and man's doctrines. Such things are constantly warned about throughout the Old and New Testaments.

It's not wrong by biblical standards. It's a story. It's not engauging in witchcraft to watch a movie that happens to have witches in it. Just as if you watch a movie with cops and robbers it's not engauging in robbing banks to have a bank robber in it. If it personally convicts you, then so be it, but don't push your personal convictions on me. That's legalism.

All men are sinners, even all Christians are sinners. So, basing your perception that 99% do it means I can do it too is Biblically flawed. I hate to use a modern cliche', but what would Jesus do?

Well, Jesus never took a wife, but that doesn't make it wrong for me to. When Jesus convicts me then I'll stop watching movies that happen to have wizards in them. So I hope you never watch movies with any kind of evil in them because that means that you are partaking by your standards. Theives, liars, murderers, sorcery, ect. otherwise you're being hipocritical.


Frodo uses his friends to fight this evil, even friends who perform sorcery. This is not a story where the hero overcomes such ungodliness, but instead the hero uses such an abomination to aid him. They are part of the heroes of the tale.

It's not promoting witchcraft, therefore, I will watch it with a clear concience.

Wizard of OZ has the good witch and the bad witch, so explain to your savior what exactly a good witch is.

If you watch pornography, you aren't participating in it, but do you for one moment think that Christ is happy with you doing so? The non participation concept does not have any Biblical value. Scripture indicates that lustful thoughts are equal to adultery, and hateful thoughts are equal to murder, etc...

Big difference. If I could watch pornography without sinning, then so be it, frankly, I'm tempted to lust when I watch pornographic videos, therefore, I shouldn't engauge in watching it, however, watching LOTR does NOT tempt me to engauge in witchcraft, therefore, I have a clear concience.

To even think of sinful activity with anything less than condemnation is breaking the spirit of the law, whether you have ever broken the letter of the law by performing the actual physical act.

I'm not under the law. I'm under grace that the New Testiment says. Also, I'm not tempted to engauge. If you feel so strongly, then don't watch it.

When scripture indicates; wide is the path to destruction, but narrow is the gate to salvation....it isn't speaking of non believers.

You're wrong here. It's referring to the way of Salvation. Jesus said that He was "The WAY the truth and the LIFE no man comes to the FATHER except through Him." Once a believer is in Christ, He is entering at the straight gate. Good deeds don't get you to heaven. What Jesus did for you on the cross does.

Read it in context. It is warning believers that most of them will not find salvation.

Wrong.

Ac 16:31 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.

Ro 4:22 And therefore it was imputed to him for righteousness.¶ Now it was not written for his sake alone, that it was imputed to him; But for us also, to whom it shall be imputed, if we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead;

Joh 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:


So on judgment day you can claim that "99% of Christians do it Lord", but what will his reply be?


You have a point I should have simply said what I told you above. Oh, by the way, there is pornography on the web, therefore, I ask why you engauge in the internet?

Mat.7
22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

That's exactly right. It's NOT about our good works.


23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

YES!! It's about a RELATIONSHIP with Jesus Christ. Exactly. Now we're talkin'. I'm so thankful for that RELATIONSHIP that gaurentees me eternal life.

24 Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock:

Jesus Christ is the rock.

25 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock.
26 And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand:

Yes, Jesus commands us to believe in Him:
Joh 6:29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.


My responses are in bold above.

Thanks. Now apply your standards to your own life.

Last edited by xfrodobagginsx, 07-Mar-2011 at 22:23.
#9  
View Public Profile Find more posts by xfrodobagginsx Add xfrodobagginsx to your Buddy List
Posts: 5/31
(07-Mar-2011 at 22:25)


Re: How To Get To Heaven When You Die

Originally Posted by adam332: View Post
Frodo Baggins,

I would like to point out that your user name is a mythical character who lives in a land of sorcery.

What does the Bible say about sorcery and witchcraft? It's an abomination unto the Lord. Yet you are promoting a character from a story that glorifies this abomination. Not to mention that the game of Utopia does as well.
So why are YOU here? Aren't YOU participating by being here? Aren't YOU being a hipocrite by your standards?
#10  
View Public Profile Find more posts by xfrodobagginsx Add xfrodobagginsx to your Buddy List
Posts: 15/33
(08-Mar-2011 at 01:41)


Re: How To Get To Heaven When You Die

Originally Posted by xfrodobagginsx: View Post
So why are YOU here? Aren't YOU participating by being here? Aren't YOU being a hipocrite by your standards?
If you are asking if I play Utopia for entertainment purposes, and watch movies like the Rings trilogy for the same.... then the answer is yes.

I am a sinner, and many of my actions and thoughts are clearly for my own fleshly pleasure. I don't try and justify that watching the Rings movies is okay by God because 99% percent of Christians do it too

I have lustful thoughts just like the majority of believers do, that does not justify me having them as well.

I leave Biblical standards where they belong, and pray that God will take these earthly desires from me so my thoughts and actions match the Lord's wishes.

Many Christians work in the exact opposite way. They try to bring the scripture down to their level, therefore convincing themselves that God won't mind.

For example, there are many believers who think the Bible teaches you should not touch alcohol. There are also many who think that the Bible teaches alcohol in moderation is perfectly alright. If someone likes drinking alcohol which side of this subject do you think they are more likely to take?

Nobody likes having thoughts that they are doing something wrong, which makes them prone to take the more liberal stance which allows them to keep drinking while feeling completely justified.

I would be taking the easy road if I told myself that since everyone else is doing it then it's okay. That would drag my Biblical beliefs down to fit my earthly actions...and is something I refuse to do.

Definition of HYPOCRITE
1
: a person who puts on a false appearance of virtue or religion
2
: a person who acts in contradiction to his or her stated beliefs or feelings

By the first definition, I am not a hypocrite because I readily admit what behavior of mine I feel is wrong.

By the second definition, I am a hypocrite as are all Christians.....since all Christians know they are sinners and still sin. This is why we must confess our iniquities and die in Christ daily.

I hope this answers your questions and let's you know that I in know way was trying to claim to be a saint. I was just pointing out what the scripture indicates about such things.

but does not make my Biblical points invalid. Sometimes the scripture clearly shows
#11  
View Public Profile Find more posts by adam332 Add adam332 to your Buddy List
Posts: 9/31
(08-Mar-2011 at 14:42)


Re: How To Get To Heaven When You Die

Originally Posted by adam332: View Post
If you are asking if I play Utopia for entertainment purposes, and watch movies like the Rings trilogy for the same.... then the answer is yes.

So what you're saying is that you're a hipocrite and live up to your own standards, however legalistic and unbiblical as they may be. Ok, thanks for clearing that up.

I am a sinner, and many of my actions and thoughts are clearly for my own fleshly pleasure. I don't try and justify that watching the Rings movies is okay by God because 99% percent of Christians do it too

Well the point Mr. hipocrite is that you don't know what you're talking about since MOST Christians abide by the bible, it would stand to reason that if it were unbiblical to watch LOTR then someone besides you would have figured that out. The fact is that I don't need to justify watching LOTR, since it's not a sin.

I have lustful thoughts just like the majority of believers do, that does not justify me having them as well.

True. So what's your point?

I leave Biblical standards where they belong, and pray that God will take these earthly desires from me so my thoughts and actions match the Lord's wishes.

I see. So are you going to become a monk now and go live in a cave? That's not what God has called me to do. You are preaching bondage and legalism. I'm glad that the Lord isn't really like the way you portray Him.

Many Christians work in the exact opposite way. They try to bring the scripture down to their level, therefore convincing themselves that God won't mind.

I see. Well I'm glad I'm not doing that. What you are doing is using the scriptures to attempt to control other people, while not living up to your own standards, as unbiblical as they may be. That's what legalists do.

For example, there are many believers who think the Bible teaches you should not touch alcohol. There are also many who think that the Bible teaches alcohol in moderation is perfectly alright. If someone likes drinking alcohol which side of this subject do you think they are more likely to take?

Well, I drink beer, actually I had 3 last night and I'm a worship leader at my church. It's pretty simple. Do you like to eat? Is gluttony a sin? So since gluttony is a sin does that mean that you shouldn't eat? It's not a sin to drink in moderation. You can't show me anywhere in the bible that says that it is. It's a sin to be drunk. Again, your using your personal feelings to attempt to control me and it's not going to work. Show me through the bible, since that's all that matters anyway. Your opinion means nothing. It's what God says that matters. Since biblically it's ok to drink, I'll drink. Jesus didn't follow legalism either, that's why the pharasees hated Him so much.

Nobody likes having thoughts that they are doing something wrong, which makes them prone to take the more liberal stance which allows them to keep drinking while feeling completely justified.

Since I'm not doing anything wrong according to the bible, I will drink if I feel like it, as long as the Lord allows me to. You seem to feel that it's wrong to drink by your own personal opinion without biblical evidence and seem to feel it's your duty to impose that on others.

I would be taking the easy road if I told myself that since everyone else is doing it then it's okay. That would drag my Biblical beliefs down to fit my earthly actions...and is something I refuse to do.

I don't take that road. I take the, It's biblically ok to drink, therefore I will drink. I'm so thankful that God is a God of freedom.


Definition of HYPOCRITE
1
: a person who puts on a false appearance of virtue or religion
2
: a person who acts in contradiction to his or her stated beliefs or feelings

By the first definition, I am not a hypocrite because I readily admit what behavior of mine I feel is wrong.

By the second definition, I am a hypocrite as are all Christians.....since all Christians know they are sinners and still sin. This is why we must confess our iniquities and die in Christ daily.


But you can't sit there and preach at people while ACTIVELY engauging in the same behavior that you oppose. Also, IF you're going to preach at people you need to BACK IT UP with scripture, otherwise, it's just YOUR opinion. Frankly, your opinion means nothing to me. Back it up. I can easily prove through the bible that it's ok to drink, therefore, I know that you are wrong, no matter how much you believe you're right. If God personally convicts you not to drink, THEN it would be a sin for you to drink, however, you do NOT have a right to impose your personal convictions on others without the bible verses to back you up.








I hope this answers your questions and let's you know that I in know way was trying to claim to be a saint. I was just pointing out what the scripture indicates about such things.

You pointed out no scripture. All you did was say "The bible says". Chapter and verse please. Before you preach, you need to know what you are talking about.

but does not make my Biblical points invalid. Sometimes the scripture clearly shows


Back it up. Your words are not scripture. Give me the scripture verses so I can read them for myself. Frankly, it sounds like you need to grow in your Christian faith. Then you will realize the freedom that you have in Christ AND the boundries of that freedom. Baby Christians tend to impose harsh rules on themselves and others because they believe that's what's expected of a Christian. In a way, you're doing what you believe is the right thing. I came off harsh because I have been abused by such thinking in the past. Now after many years of study, realize the false teachings that were being used to control my behavior.
My response is in bold above.



First of all, no where in the bible does it say that it is a SIN to drink in moderation. That's proof enough, but here are some other verses:


Pr 31:6 (NKJV) Give strong drink to him who is perishing, And wine to those who are bitter of heart.

If it were a sin, why would God tell them to give strong drink to the dying and wine to the bitter?
1Ti 5:23 (NKJV) No longer drink only water, but use a little wine for your stomach's sake and your frequent infirmities.

It was prescribed as a medicine to Timothy.
Eph 5:18 (MKJV) And do not be drunk with wine, in which is excess, but be filled with the Spirit,

Basically it's saying not to be drunk, because it's excess. It is a warning against drunkeness.

1Ti 3:2 A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach; {of good...: or, modest} Not given to wine, no striker, not greedy of filthy lucre; but patient, not a brawler, not covetous;

A pastor shouldn't drink at all.
1Ti 3:8 ¶ Likewise must the deacons be grave, not doubletongued, not given to much wine, not greedy of filthy lucre;

Deacons can drink wine, but not in excess...not a drunkard as a deacon. If it's grape juice as some baptists claim, why would He care how much they drank? Grape juice doesn't get people drunk.

Tit 2:3 The aged women likewise, that they be in behaviour as becometh holiness, not false accusers, not given to much wine, teachers of good things; {holiness: or, holy women} {false...: or, one who foments strife}
(KJV)

The aged women are permitted to drink in moderation as well. Only a pastor, or an elder is forbidden.

Mt 11:18 For John came neither eating nor drinking, and they say, He hath a devil.

John the baptist didn't drink alcohol because he was a nazarite. They were forbidden to do certain things that were not necessarily sins. If it was a sin to drink alcohol, why would God command John, as a special vow, not to drink it? If that were the case, then it would already be expected.
Mt 11:19 The Son of man came eating and drinking, and they say, Behold a man gluttonous, and a winebibber, a friend of publicans and sinners. But wisdom is justified of her children.

Jesus drank wine. They called Him a winebibber. They couldn't call Him a winebibber (lush) if He didn't drink wine with alcohol in it.
They offered wine unto the Lord for a drink offering in the old testiment:
Ex 29:40 And with the one lamb a tenth deal of flour mingled with the fourth part of an hin of beaten oil; and the fourth part of an hin of wine for a drink offering



Nu 6:20 And the priest shall wave them for a wave offering before the LORD: this is holy for the priest, with the wave breast and heave shoulder: and after that the Nazarite may drink wine. This is the law of the Nazarite who hath vowed, and of his offering unto the LORD for his separation, beside that that his hand shall get: according to the vow which he vowed, so he must do after the law of his separation.


Here are some more verses that show that there were wine offerings under the law:

Nu 15:10 And thou shalt bring for a drink offering half an hin of wine, for an offering made by fire, of a sweet savour unto the LORD.

Nu 28:7 And the drink offering thereof shall be the fourth part of an hin for the one lamb: in the holy place shalt thou cause the strong wine to be poured unto the LORD for a drink offering.

Nu 28:14 And their drink offerings shall be half an hin of wine unto a bullock, and the third part of an hin unto a ram, and a fourth part of an hin unto a lamb: this is the burnt offering of every month throughout the months of the year.


Anyways, I could keep going but I think I have proven my point to you. Now show me where it actually says not to drink.

Last edited by xfrodobagginsx, 08-Mar-2011 at 14:50.
#12  
View Public Profile Find more posts by xfrodobagginsx Add xfrodobagginsx to your Buddy List
Posts: 17/33
(09-Mar-2011 at 06:26)


Re: How To Get To Heaven When You Die

Originally Posted by xfrodobagginsx: View Post
My response is in bold above.



First of all, no where in the bible does it say that it is a SIN to drink in moderation. That's proof enough, but here are some other verses:


Pr 31:6 (NKJV) Give strong drink to him who is perishing, And wine to those who are bitter of heart.

If it were a sin, why would God tell them to give strong drink to the dying and wine to the bitter?
1Ti 5:23 (NKJV) No longer drink only water, but use a little wine for your stomach's sake and your frequent infirmities.

It was prescribed as a medicine to Timothy.
Eph 5:18 (MKJV) And do not be drunk with wine, in which is excess, but be filled with the Spirit,

Basically it's saying not to be drunk, because it's excess. It is a warning against drunkeness.

1Ti 3:2 A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach; {of good...: or, modest} Not given to wine, no striker, not greedy of filthy lucre; but patient, not a brawler, not covetous;

A pastor shouldn't drink at all.
1Ti 3:8 ¶ Likewise must the deacons be grave, not doubletongued, not given to much wine, not greedy of filthy lucre;

Deacons can drink wine, but not in excess...not a drunkard as a deacon. If it's grape juice as some baptists claim, why would He care how much they drank? Grape juice doesn't get people drunk.

Tit 2:3 The aged women likewise, that they be in behaviour as becometh holiness, not false accusers, not given to much wine, teachers of good things; {holiness: or, holy women} {false...: or, one who foments strife}
(KJV)

The aged women are permitted to drink in moderation as well. Only a pastor, or an elder is forbidden.

Mt 11:18 For John came neither eating nor drinking, and they say, He hath a devil.

John the baptist didn't drink alcohol because he was a nazarite. They were forbidden to do certain things that were not necessarily sins. If it was a sin to drink alcohol, why would God command John, as a special vow, not to drink it? If that were the case, then it would already be expected.
Mt 11:19 The Son of man came eating and drinking, and they say, Behold a man gluttonous, and a winebibber, a friend of publicans and sinners. But wisdom is justified of her children.

Jesus drank wine. They called Him a winebibber. They couldn't call Him a winebibber (lush) if He didn't drink wine with alcohol in it.
They offered wine unto the Lord for a drink offering in the old testiment:
Ex 29:40 And with the one lamb a tenth deal of flour mingled with the fourth part of an hin of beaten oil; and the fourth part of an hin of wine for a drink offering



Nu 6:20 And the priest shall wave them for a wave offering before the LORD: this is holy for the priest, with the wave breast and heave shoulder: and after that the Nazarite may drink wine. This is the law of the Nazarite who hath vowed, and of his offering unto the LORD for his separation, beside that that his hand shall get: according to the vow which he vowed, so he must do after the law of his separation.


Here are some more verses that show that there were wine offerings under the law:

Nu 15:10 And thou shalt bring for a drink offering half an hin of wine, for an offering made by fire, of a sweet savour unto the LORD.

Nu 28:7 And the drink offering thereof shall be the fourth part of an hin for the one lamb: in the holy place shalt thou cause the strong wine to be poured unto the LORD for a drink offering.

Nu 28:14 And their drink offerings shall be half an hin of wine unto a bullock, and the third part of an hin unto a ram, and a fourth part of an hin unto a lamb: this is the burnt offering of every month throughout the months of the year.


Anyways, I could keep going but I think I have proven my point to you. Now show me where it actually says not to drink.
Are you serious? I actually thought we were beginning to be civil.

First, let me say you do not have to be a saint to understand or discuss scripture...anymore than the most educated art critic needs to actually be an artist. A rocket scientist may understand how to build a rocket, and an astronaut may know how to fly one. That does not make the scientist an astronaut, nor does it make the astronaut a scientist.

That said you, I, and every Christian are hypocrites if we commit even one more sin after becoming a Christian. Perhaps you have been drinking tonight as well and are feeling feisty. I will try my best not to be as antagonistic as you are trying to be.

You said;
"So what you're saying is that you're a hipocrite and live up to your own standards, however legalistic and unbiblical as they may be. Ok, thanks for clearing that up."

I clearly admitted to being a hypocrite, so I'm not sure why you are pointing out what I already openly admitted in this and the last post. Perhaps because I pointed out your own hypocrisy? As far as legalistic and unbiblical goes, you have not shown any evidence of such accusations at this point.

You said...
"Well the point Mr. hipocrite is that you don't know what you're talking about since MOST Christians abide by the bible, it would stand to reason that if it were unbiblical to watch LOTR then someone besides you would have figured that out. The fact is that I don't need to justify watching LOTR, since it's not a sin."

Correction, most Christians try to abide by the Bible based on either what they were taught or what is most convenient with the habits they already have. This was already expressed in my last post.

Tens of millions of Christians have denounced movies like LOTR and Harry Potter. Many millions still refuse to even have a TV in their home for the very same reasons. No offense but you must have been living under a rock if you weren't aware that a good portion of the Christian community denounced movies with such content.

I clearly remember the local news interviewing Pastors who were warning their entire congregation to boycott such movies. This was national news regardless of what you believed. Try google before replying to such an obvious subject.

You said...
"True. So what's your point?"

The point was already made. You claimed watching LOTR was fine because alot of other Christians were doing it. Yet, when giving another example of things that most Christians do you say "true". Thus making my point that the majority doesn't decide right or wrong, the scripture alone does. You actually contradicted yourself with this response.

You said...
"I see. Well I'm glad I'm not doing that. What you are doing is using the scriptures to attempt to control other people, while not living up to your own standards, as unbiblical as they may be. That's what legalists do."

Unfortunately, I pointed out how all Christians do that to an extent. Again you have more than once used the term legalism. What I have noticed over the years is that when one Cristian points out clearly sinful behavior they accuse the other of legalism. So, please show the scripture which indicates such a claim.
#13  
View Public Profile Find more posts by adam332 Add adam332 to your Buddy List
Posts: 18/33
(09-Mar-2011 at 07:25)


Re: How To Get To Heaven When You Die

Are you serious? I actually thought we were beginning to be civil.

First, let me say you do not have to be a saint to understand or discuss scripture...anymore than the most educated art critic needs to actually be an artist. A rocket scientist may understand how to build a rocket, and an astronaut may know how to fly one. That does not make the scientist an astronaut, nor does it make the astronaut a scientist.

That said... you, I, and every Christian are hypocrites if we commit even one more sin after becoming a Christian. Perhaps you have been drinking tonight as well and are feeling feisty. I will try my best not to be as antagonistic as you are trying to be.

You said;
"So what you're saying is that you're a hipocrite and live up to your own standards, however legalistic and unbiblical as they may be. Ok, thanks for clearing that up."

I clearly admitted to being a hypocrite, so I'm not sure why you are pointing out what I already openly admitted in this and the last post. Perhaps because I pointed out your own hypocrisy? As far as legalistic and unbiblical goes, you have not shown any evidence of such accusations at this point.

You said...
"Well the point Mr. hipocrite is that you don't know what you're talking about since MOST Christians abide by the bible, it would stand to reason that if it were unbiblical to watch LOTR then someone besides you would have figured that out. The fact is that I don't need to justify watching LOTR, since it's not a sin."

Correction, most Christians try to abide by the Bible based on either what they were taught or what is most convenient with the habits they already have. This was already expressed in my last post.

Tens of millions of Christians have denounced movies like LOTR and Harry Potter. Many millions still refuse to even have a TV in their home for the very same reasons. No offense but you must have been living under a rock if you weren't aware that a good portion of the Christian community denounced movies with such content.

I clearly remember the local news interviewing Pastors who were warning their entire congregations to boycott such movies. This was national news regardless of what you believed. Try google before replying to such an obvious subject.

You said...
"True. So what's your point?"

The point was already made. You claimed watching LOTR was fine because alot of other Christians were doing it. Yet, when giving another example of things that most Christians do you say "true". Thus making my point that the majority doesn't decide right or wrong, the scripture alone does. You actually contradicted yourself with this response.

You said...
"I see. Well I'm glad I'm not doing that. What you are doing is using the scriptures to attempt to control other people, while not living up to your own standards, as unbiblical as they may be. That's what legalists do."

Unfortunately, I pointed out how all Christians do that to an extent. Again you have more than once used the term legalism. What I have noticed over the years is that when one Cristian points out clearly sinful behavior the others accuse him of legalism. So, please show the scripture which indicates such a claim.

You said....
"Well, I drink beer, actually I had 3 last night and I'm a worship leader at my church. It's pretty simple. Do you like to eat? Is gluttony a sin?"

This should be good. Please show us all where gluttony is sinful in the Bible? The scripture frowns on many different behaviors. Gluttony included, but it appears you are basing these terms on Catholic doctrine which speaks of the seven deadly sins found Dante's Inferno...not the Bible.

The Seven Deadly Sins, also known as the Capital Vices or Cardinal Sins, is a classification of objectionable vices that has been used since early Christian times to educate and instruct followers concerning fallen humanity's tendency to sin. The currently recognized version of the list is usually given as anger, greed, sloth, pride, lust, envy, and gluttony.

"The Catholic Church divides sin into two categories: "venial sins", which are relatively minor and can be forgiven through any sacramentals or sacraments of the Church (as well as through prayer and acts of charity), and the more severe "grave" or mortal sins."

This is why I insist on scriptural evidence and not opinions or Dante'.

You said...
"It's not a sin to drink in moderation. You can't show me anywhere in the bible that says that it is. It's a sin to be drunk. Again, your using your personal feelings to attempt to control me and it's not going to work. Show me through the bible, since that's all that matters anyway. Your opinion means nothing. It's what God says that matters. Since biblically it's ok to drink, I'll drink. Jesus didn't follow legalism either, that's why the pharasees hated Him so much."

All I did was mention the two opposing opinions on alcohol. I never indicated which side I personally found to be correct. For some reason you automatically decided that I chose one side over another. It appears you are a little defensive on the subject. But then as a confessed alcohol user I already indicated that drinkers are more likely to defend the verses that they feel justifies them. Thanks for proving my point about Christian drinkers.

You said...
"You seem to feel that it's wrong to drink by your own personal opinion without biblical evidence and seem to feel it's your duty to impose that on others."

First of all I never indicated which viewpoint that I thought was right, but thanks for putting words in my mouth. If you would like to see some of the Biblical evidence that tens of millions of Christians use for the abstinence from alcohol I will be happy to post since you have no access to google.

"(Prov 20/1 KJV) Wine is a mocker, strong drink is raging: and whosoever is deceived thereby is not wise.

Jeremiah 35/5-6 (King James Version)
5And I set before the sons of the house of the Rechabites pots full of wine, and cups, and I said unto them, Drink ye wine. 6But they said, We will drink NO wine: for Jonadab the son of Rechab our father commanded us, saying, Ye shall drink NO wine, neither ye, nor your sons for ever:

In these vs. it says NO wine not just a little this means no wine is ok. it doesn't say they can drink a little as long as they don't get drunk.

Judges 9:13 Wine, which cheereth God and man

Yes I know there are many vs. such as this one that say wine is good but the fact is this is not talking about fermented wine.
* YAYIN: Intoxicating, fermented wine
* TIROSH: Fresh grape juice
* SHAKAR: Intoxicating, intensely alcoholic, strong drink
These are the three definitions of wine in the old testament taken from the very first written bible

In any dictionary made in the 1860's or before will say that wine is fermented and unfermented we today have changed the meanings of many words

Believing the word wine every time you see it in the bible is fermented, would be like saying every time you see the word man in the bible that it is a male all because we today have changed too much."

If you want to actually know a little about this particular subject may I suggest the book by Dr. Samuele Bacchiochi, "Wine in the Bible". He delves into every single passage throughout the Old and New Testaments, using the oldest original writings that are known to decipher the conflicting translations that we currently use. He clearly comes to a single conclusion, that the original writings never conflicted at all. It was only the translations that begun to twist the perception on this subject.

After you have absorbed all legitimate sides of this argument, then come back and have a go at me. Until then may I recommend not running off at the mouth until you know what your talking of. Anyone can have a view only listening to the side of the argument which justifies their actions. The truly open mind will listen to all sides without judgment and base his views after....not before.
#14  
View Public Profile Find more posts by adam332 Add adam332 to your Buddy List
Posts: 10/31
(13-Mar-2011 at 01:22)


Re: How To Get To Heaven When You Die

Originally Posted by adam332: View Post
Are you serious? I actually thought we were beginning to be civil.

Not according to your last message, but we can be if you wish. I prefer that.

First, let me say you do not have to be a saint to understand or discuss scripture...anymore than the most educated art critic needs to actually be an artist. A rocket scientist may understand how to build a rocket, and an astronaut may know how to fly one. That does not make the scientist an astronaut, nor does it make the astronaut a scientist.

No, you don't have to be a Saint to discuss scripture, however, if you want your opinion to be valued by others, you need to actually practice what you preach, or at least TRY.

That said you, I, and every Christian are hypocrites if we commit even one more sin after becoming a Christian. Perhaps you have been drinking tonight as well and are feeling feisty. I will try my best not to be as antagonistic as you are trying to be.


Yes, all Christians fail in various areas of their lives, however, it's unseemingly for a Christian who believes that he is failing in a particular area to, while they are in the midst of doing an activity to point their finger and preach at someone else who is percievably engaugingin that same activity.


You said;
"So what you're saying is that you're a hipocrite and live up to your own standards, however legalistic and unbiblical as they may be. Ok, thanks for clearing that up."

I clearly admitted to being a hypocrite, so I'm not sure why you are pointing out what I already openly admitted in this and the last post. Perhaps because I pointed out your own hypocrisy? As far as legalistic and unbiblical goes, you have not shown any evidence of such accusations at this point.

I'm not being a hipocrite. I don't believe that I'm doing anything wrong. You're legalistic because you are accusing me of sinning without any biblical evidence to back it up. You are attempting to make me live up to YOUR standards, rather than what God has laid out in His word. I don't live up to the standards of men.

You said...
"Well the point Mr. hipocrite is that you don't know what you're talking about since MOST Christians abide by the bible, it would stand to reason that if it were unbiblical to watch LOTR then someone besides you would have figured that out. The fact is that I don't need to justify watching LOTR, since it's not a sin."

Correction, most Christians try to abide by the Bible based on either what they were taught or what is most convenient with the habits they already have. This was already expressed in my last post.

Like I've said, it's not wrong. Perhaps you should focus on spreading the gospel rather than pointing your finger at those who do share it.

Tens of millions of Christians have denounced movies like LOTR and Harry Potter. Many millions still refuse to even have a TV in their home for the very same reasons. No offense but you must have been living under a rock if you weren't aware that a good portion of the Christian community denounced movies with such content.

I consider those Christians to be legalistic IF they attempt to impose their personal convictions on me without being able to provide solid biblical verses to back it up. I don't live up to the standards of man. Usually, those folks are baby Christians at best and haven't matured enough in their faith to know the freedom that they have in Christ. The problem is that those types also cause people to not want to become Christians because of the extra nonsensical rules that they impose on others.

I clearly remember the local news interviewing Pastors who were warning their entire congregation to boycott such movies. This was national news regardless of what you believed. Try google before replying to such an obvious subject.

Like I've said, they're legalistic.

You said...
"True. So what's your point?"

The point was already made. You claimed watching LOTR was fine because alot of other Christians were doing it. Yet, when giving another example of things that most Christians do you say "true". Thus making my point that the majority doesn't decide right or wrong, the scripture alone does. You actually contradicted yourself with this response.

[b]I didn't say that watching LOTR was fine merely because other Christians were watching it. I said that it's biblically ok to watch it and also other Christians agree with ME not YOU. So if you believe that scripture decides right and wrong, why haven't you provided me with any verses that they "Thou shalt not watch movies that contain wizards"? Could it be that it's because they don't exist? So is it wrong to have a play about Jesus's life? After all, it would have satan in it, theives, hookers, sinners of various types and judas iscariot betraying Him? Those are sinful activities, therefore, by your standards you shouldn't be engauging in such activity. Surely you can see by this example that what you are saying is pure non sense.

You said...
"I see. Well I'm glad I'm not doing that. What you are doing is using the scriptures to attempt to control other people, while not living up to your own standards, as unbiblical as they may be. That's what legalists do."

Unfortunately, I pointed out how all Christians do that to an extent. Again you have more than once used the term legalism. What I have noticed over the years is that when one Cristian points out clearly sinful behavior they accuse the other of legalism. So, please show the scripture which indicates such a claim.

It's not clearly sinful behavior. You still haven't given me any biblical evidence. You're still using your own feelings as evidence. Frankly your opinion means little to me. It's what God says that matters. Not 1 bible verse in any of your rebuttles. Not one! That's legalism.


My responses are in bold above.
#15  
View Public Profile Find more posts by xfrodobagginsx Add xfrodobagginsx to your Buddy List
Posts: 11/31
(13-Mar-2011 at 03:03)


Re: How To Get To Heaven When You Die

Originally Posted by adam332: View Post
Are you serious? I actually thought we were beginning to be civil.

You said....
"Well, I drink beer, actually I had 3 last night and I'm a worship leader at my church. It's pretty simple. Do you like to eat? Is gluttony a sin?"

This should be good. Please show us all where gluttony is sinful in the Bible? The scripture frowns on many different behaviors. Gluttony included, but it appears you are basing these terms on Catholic doctrine which speaks of the seven deadly sins found Dante's Inferno...not the Bible.

I'm not a Catholic, not even close. I'm actually a Baptist if you must know, but my faith isn't dependent upon what the Church says, it's based upon what the bible says. I've never heard of Dante or his Inferno, but I have heard of the bible. You still haven't quoted any scripture to back up your assertions. I didn't make an assertion I asked a question. Is gluttony a sin? I'm not going to make your arguement for you. Take out your bible and answer my question.


The Seven Deadly Sins, also known as the Capital Vices or Cardinal Sins, is a classification of objectionable vices that has been used since early Christian times to educate and instruct followers concerning fallen humanity's tendency to sin. The currently recognized version of the list is usually given as anger, greed, sloth, pride, lust, envy, and gluttony.

I could care less about the Seven Deadly Sins doctrine. You seem to have no problem pointing out ideas from religious books, yet can't quote a single scripture to back up your assertions.

"The Catholic Church divides sin into two categories: "venial sins", which are relatively minor and can be forgiven through any sacramentals or sacraments of the Church (as well as through prayer and acts of charity), and the more severe "grave" or mortal sins."

I don't care what the Catholic Church says.

This is why I insist on scriptural evidence and not opinions or Dante'.

I have provided scriptural evidence for my assertions. YOU haven't. You made the assertion that it was wrong to watch LOTR. I'm asking you to prove it.

You said...
"It's not a sin to drink in moderation. You can't show me anywhere in the bible that says that it is. It's a sin to be drunk. Again, your using your personal feelings to attempt to control me and it's not going to work. Show me through the bible, since that's all that matters anyway. Your opinion means nothing. It's what God says that matters. Since biblically it's ok to drink, I'll drink. Jesus didn't follow legalism either, that's why the pharasees hated Him so much."

All I did was mention the two opposing opinions on alcohol. I never indicated which side I personally found to be correct. For some reason you automatically decided that I chose one side over another. It appears you are a little defensive on the subject. But then as a confessed alcohol user I already indicated that drinkers are more likely to defend the verses that they feel justifies them. Thanks for proving my point about Christian drinkers.

Because legalistic people LOVE to use that issue to control people. There are NO verses that say that it's a sin to drink, therefore, I'm not only focusing on the verses that support my side. I will gladly show you the verses used by the other side to attempt to make an argument that clearly isn't in the bible if you wish.

You said...
"You seem to feel that it's wrong to drink by your own personal opinion without biblical evidence and seem to feel it's your duty to impose that on others."

First of all I never indicated which viewpoint that I thought was right, but thanks for putting words in my mouth. If you would like to see some of the Biblical evidence that tens of millions of Christians use for the abstinence from alcohol I will be happy to post since you have no access to google.


"(Prov 20/1 KJV) Wine is a mocker, strong drink is raging: and whosoever is deceived thereby is not wise.

I've seen all of these verses before. Baptists love to use this one. This verse is merely a warning of caution to drinkers not to be careless. In that same book (notice it's in Proverbs as well) and same writer it says:

Pr 31:6 Give strong drink unto him that is ready to perish, and wine <Yayin> unto those that be of heavy hearts.

Jeremiah 35/5-6 (King James Version)

5And I set before the sons of the house of the Rechabites pots full of wine, and cups, and I said unto them, Drink ye wine. 6But they said, We will drink NO wine: for Jonadab the son of Rechab our father commanded us, saying, Ye shall drink NO wine, neither ye, nor your sons for ever:

That was just a commandment for that particular group. It's not a commandment for everyone not to drink wine.

In these vs. it says NO wine not just a little this means no wine is ok. it doesn't say they can drink a little as long as they don't get drunk.

You're right. It's wrong for that group to drink it. Not me.

Judges 9:13 Wine, which cheereth God and man

Yes I know there are many vs. such as this one that say wine is good but the fact is this is not talking about fermented wine.
* YAYIN: Intoxicating, fermented wine
* TIROSH: Fresh grape juice
* SHAKAR: Intoxicating, intensely alcoholic, strong drink
These are the three definitions of wine in the old testament taken from the very first written bible

That's the Baptist cop out. The grape juice arguement. I'm actually a Southern Baptist and my church doesn't believe like that, but I used to attend those churches. The fact is that ALL juice back then had alcohol in it. The fact is that I have given you ample evidence that it's not a sin to drink wine, so just because there are different words used in the bible for wine, doesn't make it a sin. Bishops and elders can't drink fermented wine at all, but decons are only forbidden from drinking "much wine". If it weren't fermented wine and were simply grape juice, why would it matter how much wine they consumed? Does God believe it will hurt you to drink too much grape juice? Certainly not.

[/b]In any dictionary made in the 1860's or before will say that wine is fermented and unfermented we today have changed the meanings of many words

Believing the word wine every time you see it in the bible is fermented, would be like saying every time you see the word man in the bible that it is a male all because we today have changed too much."

I didn't say that it was fermented every time it was mentioned. I've heard that silly grape juice arguement many times before, yet they can't explain why it's not ok for a pastor or an elder to drink <paroinos>

1Ti 3:8 ¶ Likewise must the deacons be grave, not doubletongued, not given to much wine <oinos>, not greedy of filthy lucre

So again I ask IF it were a sin, then why does the Lord care about how much grape juice the decons drink?

You forgot to list those words in your definitions for wine. Was that intentional?


If you want to actually know a little about this particular subject may I suggest the book by Dr. Samuele Bacchiochi, "Wine in the Bible". He delves into every single passage throughout the Old and New Testaments, using the oldest original writings that are known to decipher the conflicting translations that we currently use. He clearly comes to a single conclusion, that the original writings never conflicted at all. It was only the translations that begun to twist the perception on this subject.

That's ok. I'll pass. I've already researched the subject. I know the real motive behind telling people that it's a sin to drink wine. Jesus drank fermented wine. That's why He was accused of being a wine bibber. If He merely drank grape juice, I don't think that He could have been accused to being a wine bibber. Also, John did NOT drink. He was a Nazerite. They took a special vow not to drink wine. Isn't that interesting? If it were a sin already, why would they need to make a special vow not to drink? Wouldn't it already be expected of him not to drink?

Mt 11:18 For John came neither eating nor drinking, and they say, He hath a devil. The Son of man came eating and drinking, and they say, Behold a man gluttonous, and a winebibber, a friend of publicans and sinners. But wisdom is justified of her children. Then began he to upbraid the cities wherein most of his mighty works were done, because they repented not:

After you have absorbed all legitimate sides of this argument, then come back and have a go at me. Until then may I recommend not running off at the mouth until you know what your talking of. Anyone can have a view only listening to the side of the argument which justifies their actions. The truly open mind will listen to all sides without judgment and base his views after....not before.

Now YOU'RE getting cocky again. I already know that feeble arguement. The bible CLEARLY does NOT support drinking being a sin. Using greek words and definitions is a tactic of manipulation through using foreign language and manipulating definitions and leaving out other uses of the word wine that are in the bible that don't support your side of the arguement.
My responses are in bold above.
#16  
View Public Profile Find more posts by xfrodobagginsx Add xfrodobagginsx to your Buddy List
Posts: 20/33
(18-Mar-2011 at 08:33)


You said;
“No, you don't have to be a Saint to discuss scripture, however, if you want your opinion to be valued by others, you need to actually practice what you preach, or at least TRY. ”


I’m not preaching, I’m pointing out what the Bible indicates about these topics.

You said;
“Yes, all Christians fail in various areas of their lives, however, it's unseemingly for a Christian who believes that he is failing in a particular area to, while they are in the midst of doing an activity to point their finger and preach at someone else who is percievably engaugingin that same activity.”


First, that means all Christians have done something hypocritical….which was my point. Why can’t a Christian mention to another Christian that what they are participating in is a Biblical no-no?

You said;
“I'm not being a hipocrite. I don't believe that I'm doing anything wrong. You're legalistic because you are accusing me of sinning without any biblical evidence to back it up. You are attempting to make me live up to YOUR standards, rather than what God has laid out in His word. I don't live up to the standards of men.”


You do believe you have been a hypocrite at times in other areas, yes? So, you just don’t feel these particular issues are examples of hypocrisy because of your belief, correct?

So let’s look at just a few examples what the Bible has to say about sorcery/witchcraft etc…

Exo. 22:18 Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live.

Deu. 18:10 There shall not be found among you any one that maketh his son or his daughter to pass through the fire, or that useth divination, or an observer of times, or an enchanter, or a witch,
11 Or a charmer, or a consulter with familiar spirits, or a wizard, or a necromancer.
12 For all that do these things are an abomination unto the LORD: and because of these abominations the LORD thy God doth drive them out from before thee.
13 Thou shalt be perfect with the LORD thy God.

Gal. 5:19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

Rev. 21:7 He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.
8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

Now, you may not think your doing anything wrong since I assume you don’t actually practice sorcery yourself. But do you think the Lord feels it’s ok for you to entertain yourself with movies/games that glorify people who do? Seriously, what other glorified sinful behavior is it ok to entertain yourself with? Porn? Murder? Rape? Using the Lord’s name in vain?

Is it legalism to expect a Christian not to entertain himself with things God say are an abomination?

1Pet. 1:13 Wherefore gird up the loins of your mind, be sober, and hope to the end for the grace that is to be brought unto you at the revelation of Jesus Christ;
14 As obedient children, not fashioning yourselves according to the former lusts in your ignorance:
15 But as he which hath called you is holy, so be ye holy in all manner of conversation;
16 Because it is written, Be ye holy; for I am holy.


**Note** The word "conversation" that is used above means…

391 αναστροφη anastrophe an-as-trof-ay’
from 390; TDNT-7:715,1093; n f
AV-conversation 13; 13
1) manner of life, conduct, behaviour, deportment

1Pet. 2:7 Unto you therefore which believe he is precious: but unto them which be disobedient, the stone which the builders disallowed, the same is made the head of the corner,
8 And a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offence, even to them which stumble at the word, being disobedient: whereunto also they were appointed.
9 But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:

You said;
“I consider those Christians to be legalistic IF they attempt to impose their personal convictions on me without being able to provide solid biblical verses to back it up. I don't live up to the standards of man. Usually, those folks are baby Christians at best and haven't matured enough in their faith to know the freedom that they have in Christ. The problem is that those types also cause people to not want to become Christians because of the extra nonsensical rules that they impose on others.”


It doesn’t seem like a legalistic nonsensical concept at all. It’s actually quite plain and Biblically solid as shown above. Perhaps it’s the majority that are the baby Christians. The Bible tells us the majority of believers will not attain salvation. What the real problem is Christians who act like sheep and base their actions on their own thoughts instead of the word of God.

You said;
“It's not clearly sinful behavior. You still haven't given me any biblical evidence. You're still using your own feelings as evidence. Frankly your opinion means little to me. It's what God says that matters. Not 1 bible verse in any of your rebuttles. Not one! That's legalism.”


The reason I wasn’t throwing passages at you to prove my point was because I wrongly assumed you knew that these are basic Biblical principles. I hoped you knew your Bible well enough that I wouldn’t have to lead you to them. Which obviously was not the case.

If you need more passages that denounce sorcery/witchcraft please let me know. Or if you need more passages that tell us to stay away from all forms of ungodliness I will be happy to share.

Last edited by adam332, 18-Mar-2011 at 08:36.
#17  
View Public Profile Find more posts by adam332 Add adam332 to your Buddy List
Global Moderator
Research Group
Posts: 3209/3399
Donated $25.30
(18-Mar-2011 at 08:54)


Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live
or
Thou shalt not kill

?

"When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth"
R.I.P. InJustice!
Hit me up on Facebook

EWE-tah
#18  
View Public Profile Find more posts by Saint Sinner Add Saint Sinner to your Buddy List
Posts: 22/33
(18-Mar-2011 at 10:28)


Re: How To Get To Heaven When You Die

Originally Posted by Saint Sinner: View Post
Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live
or
Thou shalt not kill

?
I guess you are wanting a reason why you see conflict there. For pete's sake, why aren't soldiers charged with murder, or judges who sentence men to die.

Why does a father tell his children not to cross the street, but he does it himself? Or he'll let his child cross as long as he is holding his hand.

That is such a silly position to take, like it's something difficult to grasp.

Last edited by adam332, 18-Mar-2011 at 10:29.
#19  
View Public Profile Find more posts by adam332 Add adam332 to your Buddy List
Global Moderator
Research Group
Posts: 3212/3399
Donated $25.30
(18-Mar-2011 at 12:11)


Re: How To Get To Heaven When You Die

I was going to make some points but then I figured why bother

The reason for the conflict is simple.

Thou shalt not kill is just a good law

Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live was in direct response to the popularity of witchcraft, and other non-christian faiths at the time, and in an effort to ensure that this religion was the dominating one a holy war of sorts was raged

The bible is a collection of a few good stories with some good lessons mixed in and a shit load of propaganda
but anyways I wanted to answer your question..

Quote:
ARE YOU 100% SURE THAT IF YOU DIED TODAY THAT YOU WOULD GO TO HEAVEN?
Honestly I'm not even 100% certain there is a heaven to go to ... and after the thousands of years of bloodshed and all of the wars waged by the church, the men, women and children all slaughtered in the name of God and by the command of God .. I think the better question should be .. Are you 100% sure that if you died today that you would want to go to heaven?

"When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth"
R.I.P. InJustice!
Hit me up on Facebook

EWE-tah
#20  
View Public Profile Find more posts by Saint Sinner Add Saint Sinner to your Buddy List
Closed Thread

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Forum Jump:

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Nations pledge aid after tsunami Marduk III Respectable General Discussions 94 09-Jan-2005 09:51
DIE has no honor? Should we form anti-DIE movement? nikonman Alliances Discussions 1 11-Dec-2004 15:35
going to heaven, how perfect is it? SiftyKev Religious Discussions 9 22-Dec-2003 06:02
A Tribute: To a great song Valek The Lunatic Asylum 12 26-Sep-2003 02:06


All times are GMT+1. The time now is 16:34.

Powered by vBulletin (modified)
Copyright ©2000-2006, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.