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Posts: 521/611
(17-Jan-2009 at 21:13)


Quote:
AS an atheist i would not want to die because all i have is my life. how does that not make sense?
Well, isnt it ironic that life does not care what the entirety of human family desires? We desire life, yet death is inevitable. How does an atheist explains this contrariness?

[Holy Qur'an (Surah Al-Furqan; the Criterion]
Blessed is He who sent down the criterion to His servant, that it may be an admonition to all creatures (25:1)
But the misbelievers say: "Naught is this but a lie which he has forged [...] (25:4)
#21  
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(18-Jan-2009 at 10:43)


Re: Fearless Atheist

Originally Posted by Armitage: View Post
Well, isnt it ironic that life does not care what the entirety of human family desires? We desire life, yet death is inevitable. How does an atheist explains this contrariness?
You gotta be kidding me. It's only a contrariness if there's a plan behind the world/nature. Since the whole point of Atheism is that there is none, there's nothing to explain.

Modern world I'm not pleased to meet you

You just bring me down
#22  
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(18-Jan-2009 at 12:06)


Re: Fearless Atheist

Originally Posted by Caelis666: View Post
You gotta be kidding me. It's only a contrariness if there's a plan behind the world/nature. Since the whole point of Atheism is that there is none, there's nothing to explain.
I dont see why a plan needs to be there to see the obvious contrariness. But i wouldnt mind that you explain that further to me. At the moment i cant understand the importance of a plan.

Secondly, and on what basis do Atheists claim there is nothing, no plan after death other than their wishings? What i see is that our world is limited contrary to what we would like to have our world be. I have my Holy Book, a written book that is objectively observable for everyone in this life, that tells me that everything in life signs to a bigger plan, or lets say, signs to God. I yet havent been dissapointed. And that is my basis. You see, i have something at hand and i can give you many examples of such signs that support a certain mindset. On the other side i cannot see any basis or signs, that would make me reconsider the existance of an higher being but you can try to convince me that the basis of thought of atheists has more than their wishes as their basis.

[Holy Qur'an (Surah Al-Furqan; the Criterion]
Blessed is He who sent down the criterion to His servant, that it may be an admonition to all creatures (25:1)
But the misbelievers say: "Naught is this but a lie which he has forged [...] (25:4)

Last edited by Armitage, 18-Jan-2009 at 12:09.
Edit reason: included a sentence
#23  
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(18-Jan-2009 at 12:12)


Quote:
I dont see why a plan needs to be there to see the obvious contrariness. But i wouldnt mind that you explain that further to me. At the moment i cant understand the importance of a plan.
If there is no plan then contrariness is to be expected... it's not that hard.

Quote:
Secondly, and on what basis do Atheists claim there is nothing, no plan after death other than their wishings? What i see is that our world is limited contrary to what we would like to have our world be. I have my Holy Book, a written book that is objectively observable for everyone in this life, that tells me that everything in life signs to a bigger plan, or lets say, signs to God. I yet havent been dissapointed. And that is my basis. You see, i have something at hand and i can give you many examples of such signs that support a certain mindset. On the other side i cannot see any basis or signs, that would make me reconsider the existance of an higher being but you can try to convince me that the basis of thought of atheists has more than their wishes as their basis.
You see those human-made signs exactly because it is what humans want. A human wants it so badly that he believes it, then tells everyone.

Tax collectors are a valid military target - chobham
#24  
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(18-Jan-2009 at 12:25)


Originally Posted by Spectre19:
You see those human-made signs exactly because it is what humans want. A human wants it so badly that he believes it, then tells everyone.
Exactly what atheists do. You got the point ...

Dont make things up without having actually read and examined the Scriptures objectively and with a free mind.

Quote:
If there is no plan then contrariness is to be expected... it's not that hard.
Ok i see, but there is no contrariness in nature or in the universe. What does that tells us then?

[Holy Qur'an (Surah Al-Furqan; the Criterion]
Blessed is He who sent down the criterion to His servant, that it may be an admonition to all creatures (25:1)
But the misbelievers say: "Naught is this but a lie which he has forged [...] (25:4)
#25  
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(18-Jan-2009 at 17:34)


Re: Fearless Atheist

Originally Posted by Armitage: View Post
I dont see why a plan needs to be there to see the obvious contrariness. But i wouldnt mind that you explain that further to me. At the moment i cant understand the importance of a plan.

Secondly, and on what basis do Atheists claim there is nothing, no plan after death other than their wishings? What i see is that our world is limited contrary to what we would like to have our world be. I have my Holy Book, a written book that is objectively observable for everyone in this life, that tells me that everything in life signs to a bigger plan, or lets say, signs to God. I yet havent been dissapointed. And that is my basis. You see, i have something at hand and i can give you many examples of such signs that support a certain mindset. On the other side i cannot see any basis or signs, that would make me reconsider the existance of an higher being but you can try to convince me that the basis of thought of atheists has more than their wishes as their basis.
Trying to prove it either way is ridiculous. I simply do not believe in God, hence I do not believe in the afterlife. I have no rational reason or proof for my disbelief, I just do not believe.

What basis do you have otherwise then your own faith? A book? But what is that book worth if you do not believe in the first place?

Modern world I'm not pleased to meet you

You just bring me down
#26  
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(18-Jan-2009 at 22:07)


Re: Fearless Atheist

Originally Posted by Armitage: View Post
Well, isnt it ironic that life does not care what the entirety of human family desires? We desire life, yet death is inevitable. How does an atheist explains this contrariness?
I don't think it really needs an explanation, life does not care since it is a descriptive word for a biological process. Religion does not care for life since it is a descriptive word used for a collection of faiths.

I would also argue that not everyone desires life, if you ever speak to those in nursing homes who have been kept alive far beyond their natural span, many actually desire death.

Quote:
Secondly, and on what basis do Atheists claim there is nothing, no plan after death other than their wishings?
All athiests are different, there is no such thing as the average athiest in the same way there is no such thing as the average muslim so speaking collectivly is pointless. For me personally, I have not seen any evidence to convince me that there is another vehicle or transmutation for my conscience to continue.

This is what every PvP argument boils down to:
Dear Devs:
Rock is overpowered, please nerf. Paper is fine.
Yours, Scissors
#27  
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(18-Jan-2009 at 23:31)


Originally Posted by Caelis666:
Trying to prove it either way is ridiculous. I simply do not believe in God, hence I do not believe in the afterlife. I have no rational reason or proof for my disbelief, I just do not believe.
This is atheists conjecture which tries to put theists and atheists in the same boat. I do believe we are all humans but we differ in what we believe. Believers have a Holy Book as a basis or some scripture upon who wants to belong to that religion has to accept as its grounding. Thus unlike Grashnak' statement, muslim can be put collectively in a same group as it is essential to believe in every single word of the Quran to be a Muslim. Thats the believers basis of understanding. Something atheists dont seem to have, thus the millenias of different opinions. Prove me wrong, is there a notion that all atheists alike accept which has a grounding in a scientific fact (or something else that is 'tangible' in some way)?

[Holy Qur'an (Surah Al-Furqan; the Criterion]
Blessed is He who sent down the criterion to His servant, that it may be an admonition to all creatures (25:1)
But the misbelievers say: "Naught is this but a lie which he has forged [...] (25:4)

Last edited by Armitage, 18-Jan-2009 at 23:35.
Edit reason: added a line
#28  
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(19-Jan-2009 at 01:15)
I think Armitage raises an interesting point about how atheism is based on desire, because it protrays it as an excess that's above and beyond observing normal inclinations. In Atheism, it's not enough to just say 'biology doesn't care', but it is motivated to continually back up it's perspective. And this is a problem, because if biology doesn't care, then why do you care about biology? If it's a fact, then why does it require your constant horn blowing?
#29  
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(19-Jan-2009 at 09:22)


Re: Fearless Atheist

Originally Posted by Armitage: View Post
This is atheists conjecture which tries to put theists and atheists in the same boat. I do believe we are all humans but we differ in what we believe. Believers have a Holy Book as a basis or some scripture upon who wants to belong to that religion has to accept as its grounding. Thus unlike Grashnak' statement, muslim can be put collectively in a same group as it is essential to believe in every single word of the Quran to be a Muslim. Thats the believers basis of understanding. Something atheists dont seem to have, thus the millenias of different opinions. Prove me wrong, is there a notion that all atheists alike accept which has a grounding in a scientific fact (or something else that is 'tangible' in some way)?
You (unsurprisingly) miss the point. Before you can take the Quran or the Bible or whatever as a holy book, you already need to be a believer. For everyone else, it's just pretty fiction. Your faith in the Quran is based on your faith in God, not the other way around.

Modern world I'm not pleased to meet you

You just bring me down
#30  
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(19-Jan-2009 at 09:34)


Thats not true. A person can take the Quran as what it seems to him. The supposed word of God, or simply a 'book'. He can examine it and then derive his conclusions as to whether believe in the statements this book makes. Then it becomes a Holy Book.

But unsuprisingly, the Quran proves right. An atheist is afterall someone who does simply not want to believe and thats a decision based on nothing but conjecture.

Originally Posted by Caelis666:
Trying to prove it either way is ridiculous. I simply do not believe in God, hence I do not believe in the afterlife. I have no rational reason or proof for my disbelief, I just do not believe.
Id appreciated if you would have said. I have examined nature and philosophy and theology and i came to the conclusion, that everything based on these arguments, that God does not exist.

You have no basis for your belief.

[Holy Qur'an (Surah Al-Furqan; the Criterion]
Blessed is He who sent down the criterion to His servant, that it may be an admonition to all creatures (25:1)
But the misbelievers say: "Naught is this but a lie which he has forged [...] (25:4)
#31  
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(19-Jan-2009 at 10:05)


Do you yourself even understand what you're saying? Because to me that post lacks even the most basic form of logical structure.

And the only thing I did understand is a mistake. Atheists do not CHOOSE not to believe, or at least I did not. I simply do not believe. At no point a choice was made.

Modern world I'm not pleased to meet you

You just bring me down
#32  
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(19-Jan-2009 at 11:49)


Originally Posted by Armitage: View Post
Thus unlike Grashnak' statement, muslim can be put collectively in a same group as it is essential to believe in every single word of the Quran to be a Muslim. Thats the believers basis of understanding.
Tell me, do you believe that you should go to holy war today ? No ? Some other Muslims believe that. Do you believe that all Jews are dogs ? No ? Well some other muslims believe that. Do you believe that all women should wear burkas ? No ? ..... Not all muslims believe the same thing. You have an underlying similarity but to talk of the beliefs of such a huge range of people is meaningless. Believers & non-believers simply cannot be pidgeon-holed as easily as that.

Quote:
Prove me wrong, is there a notion that all atheists alike accept which has a grounding in a scientific fact (or something else that is 'tangible' in some way)?
For my 'beliefs', you are looking at this the wrong way around. The scientific method would mean you start with disbelief & prove your case that there is an afterlife.

This is what every PvP argument boils down to:
Dear Devs:
Rock is overpowered, please nerf. Paper is fine.
Yours, Scissors
#33  
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(19-Jan-2009 at 12:14)


Quote:
Prove me wrong, is there a notion that all atheists alike accept which has a grounding in a scientific fact (or something else that is 'tangible' in some way)?
Fortunetly logical reasoning does not agree with you, otherwise we'd all be busy trying to prove the nonexistance of every fantasy created by the human mind.

Just because we can't prove the nonexistance of something does not mean that something exists, that's basic logic and it's something most believers fail to understand. Just like we can't prove elves, fairies or The Spaghetti Monster don't exist, but that doesn't mean they exist.

As such the burden of proof does not lay on us, it's those that imply the existance of something that have to prove it.
#34  
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(19-Jan-2009 at 13:09)
Re: Fearless Atheist

Originally Posted by Caelis666: View Post
And the only thing I did understand is a mistake. Atheists do not CHOOSE not to believe, or at least I did not. I simply do not believe. At no point a choice was made.
Originally Posted by Grashnak: View Post
For my 'beliefs', you are looking at this the wrong way around. The scientific method would mean you start with disbelief & prove your case that there is an afterlife.
Originally Posted by Cobra2002: View Post
As such the burden of proof does not lay on us, it's those that imply the existance of something that have to prove it.
Ah yes, but at some earlier point we choose which personal inclinations we like to reason with. The objective 'clean-slate' is only theoretical.

If for instance you based your friendships on the scientific method you would not be very popular (Kierkegaard).
#35  
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(19-Jan-2009 at 14:20)


Re: Fearless Atheist

Originally Posted by Gotterdammerung: View Post
Ah yes, but at some earlier point we choose which personal inclinations we like to reason with. The objective 'clean-slate' is only theoretical.

If for instance you based your friendships on the scientific method you would not be very popular (Kierkegaard).
Of course, you apply the method at the appropriate time & place. "Which tin of beans should I choose at the supermarket ?" would not yield any real benefit of a full in depth study. For me, "Which God, if any, should I follow ?" does yield benefit.

This is what every PvP argument boils down to:
Dear Devs:
Rock is overpowered, please nerf. Paper is fine.
Yours, Scissors

Last edited by Grashnak, 19-Jan-2009 at 14:21.
#36  
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(19-Jan-2009 at 15:14)
Re: Fearless Atheist

Originally Posted by Grashnak: View Post
Of course, you apply the method at the appropriate time & place. "Which tin of beans should I choose at the supermarket ?" would not yield any real benefit of a full in depth study. For me, "Which God, if any, should I follow ?" does yield benefit.
But really, there are much more personalized drives at the core of this debate, that's based on personal satisfaction and transforms 'truth' into a smoke-screen. I think that this is what makes up the real reason why someone becomes religious or not. Your answer to the question, denial, or undeterminedness on the existence of God will depend on what you is looking for in the first place. At the end of they day, it's just a battle for taste.

Last edited by Gotterdammerung, 19-Jan-2009 at 15:19.
Edit reason: I don't know how to solve it further.
#37  
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(19-Jan-2009 at 15:50)


You are wrong as usual. Surprisingly for someone who quotes Kierkegaard. Maybe you should try reading his books instead of wiki'ing for quotes?

Believing, as Kierkegaard of course knew, is not something that can be reduced to other terms. It cannot be reduced to science, no matter how much the modern age would like to reduce everything to those orderly procedures. It can also not be reduced to taste, no matter how much consumer society would like to reduce everything to that.

It simply all comes down to one question: Do you believe or do you not believe?

There are no good reasons, no rationalisations, no choices, no help, no nothing. Either you believe or you don't.

Modern world I'm not pleased to meet you

You just bring me down
#38  
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(19-Jan-2009 at 16:50)


Re: Fearless Atheist

Originally Posted by Gotterdammerung: View Post
But really, there are much more personalized drives at the core of this debate, that's based on personal satisfaction and transforms 'truth' into a smoke-screen. I think that this is what makes up the real reason why someone becomes religious or not. Your answer to the question, denial, or undeterminedness on the existence of God will depend on what you is looking for in the first place. At the end of they day, it's just a battle for taste.
It's a nice theory, but I'm not convinced. Do rebellious, religious teenagers typically hop to another faith ? No, whilst they derive satisfaction from shocking their parents with ever more outlandish clothes/music/behaviour it is rare indeed for them to switch their faith from (for example) chrisitan to jewish, jewish to muslim e.t.c. Therefore the idea that faith arrives from constructed 'truths' created by self-gratification seems at best unlikely otherwise you would see far more radical shifts in religious ideology when teenagers start to think for themselves & rebel against their parents.

This is what every PvP argument boils down to:
Dear Devs:
Rock is overpowered, please nerf. Paper is fine.
Yours, Scissors
#39  
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(20-Jan-2009 at 20:57)


People look how wonderful this world truely is! It gives the atheists equal footing, neither can a believer prove Allah nor can atheists prove their own claims on the non-existance of an afterlife. This is the decree of Allah, the Most-Merciful. He gave us the freedom to believe or disbelieve and He has made the world structure so, that everyone can find what he seeks.

Believers can find signs of Allah which puts their hearts at ease and hope for the best in both worlds. And atheists can find all the worldy pleasure in this life that they seek. So everyone works towards what he desires and believes in.

I truely thank everyone who participated in this very interesting debate. I want to quote some verse of the Quran:

In the name of God, Most Gracious, Most Merciful.

Say : O ye that reject Faith!
I worship not that which ye worship,
Nor will ye worship that which I worship.
And I will not worship that which ye have been wont to worship,
Nor will ye worship that which I worship.
To you be your Way, and to me mine.


The Word of Allah toward the disbelievers as the prophet Muhammad, peace be upon him, was instructed to speak toward his people. I think I understand these verses much better now. Thanks again for making this discussion worthwhile and no bad feelings.

peace

[Holy Qur'an (Surah Al-Furqan; the Criterion]
Blessed is He who sent down the criterion to His servant, that it may be an admonition to all creatures (25:1)
But the misbelievers say: "Naught is this but a lie which he has forged [...] (25:4)

Last edited by Armitage, 20-Jan-2009 at 20:57.
Edit reason: replaces a word
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