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(Posted as Kyrina)
Posts: 109/329
(30-Jan-2003 at 07:09)


question True Atheist or just an Excuse?

This questions is spured from the continous debate over Christianity and those who believe there is no God and argue with everyone who believe there is.

I got this information from a book that has every religion and cult in it, with their history, beliefs, and such.

First I'll state what the book says about Athiest and then I'd like to know if you are truely an Athiest or use it as an excuse to argue with Christians.


Qoute from the book "WHY SO MANY GODS?"

SHORT HISTORY

Atheism has been around for quite a while. Starting back in ancient Greece, people said there was no God. It wasn't an attack against Christians; it was a belief against the pantheistic belief system of the time, which taught that there were many gods.

About forty years ago, a woman named Madalyn Murray O'Hair founded a group called the American Atheists. She fought very hard (and won) to get prayer out of schools. She also fought to have "In God We Trust" taken off American money, but she lost that one. Since then, atheists in this group have held Atheist Pride marches in state capitals. They say that "coming out" is letting your family and friends know that you are an atheist. They fight really hard for seperation of church and state. They provide literature and speakers to college campuses. They do a lot to promote their cause.

Madalyn Murray O'Hair has been called "the most hated woman in America." In 1995, she, her son, and her grand-daughter all disappeared. It wasn't until the spring of 2001 that their bodies were found, and, as most people imagined, they had been murdered.

Now the fun part begins....hehe

BASIC BELIEFS

Atheists don't believe in anything supernatural--god, devil, heaven, hell. They only believe in this world. That means that after you die, you just stop existing.

They think that:
  • Morals come from humanity, not from any religious code. They rely on communities to come up with their own moral code.
  • Evidence about the world and the universe is to be gained through science. They promote science and seek to aid it in any way possible. Science cannot prove the existence of God. So, there is no God.
  • Freedom from Religion: Atheists believe that religion imposes too many restrictions on humanity. Since they're all about freedom, atheists not only reject the concept of God, they also want to get rid of all organized religion.
  • Freedome of Information: Atheists believe that more mistakes are made from ignorance than anything else. So, they're all for people of every age having free access to all kinds of information. For example, they're into minors having complete access to information about sex so they can learn about it before they make mistakes.
  • The cosmos is all there is. It is eternal and self-sustaining.
  • Evil is a reality, a necessary part of human evolution, but atheists don't know how to deal with it.
  • Man does not have an immortal soul.

HOW DOES AN ATHEIST BECOME AN ATHEIST?
They've got to believe that God does not exist.

WHAT'S THE ATTRACTION?
You don't have to be responsible to any higher power.

WHAT'S THE GOAL?
Proving that no god exists


Here's something for the people who say they are atheists....some Critical Thinking of sorts...

THE TRICK:
You can't see God, right? Ever touched Him? Ever smelled Him? So, why should you believe in Him? That's what atheists believe. They forget one thing, however. They can't see the wind, but hey can see the leaves rustling in the trees. They can't see natural gas, but they knwo that it runs their stove or heater. Truth is, while you can't really see God, you can see His effects.

All of this information was taken from the book. I'd like to know your thoughts and to see if you are truely an Atheist.

LVL 80 Draenei Shaman
Alliance FTW!!!

Last edited by Tari, 30-Jan-2003 at 07:13.
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(Posted as Steiger)
Posts: 120/381
(30-Jan-2003 at 07:34)


The following statement contradicts
Quote:
Morals come from humanity, not from any religious code. They rely on communities to come up with their own moral code.
This statement:

Quote:
Evil is a reality, a necessary part of human evolution, but atheists don't know how to deal with it
If atheists don't know how to deal with evil why rely on communities to come up with a MORAL code that they can follow?

Quote:
You can't see God, right? Ever touched Him? Ever smelled Him? So, why should you believe in Him? That's what atheists believe. They forget one thing, however. They can't see the wind, but hey can see the leaves rustling in the trees. They can't see natural gas, but they knwo that it runs their stove or heater. Truth is, while you can't really see God, you can see His effects
I can certainly smell natural gas and I can see the wind when its a tornado roaring towards my house at 500 miles an hour. What are God's effects?

Quote:
Madalyn Murray O'Hair has been called "the most hated woman in America." In 1995, she, her son, and her grand-daughter all disappeared. It wasn't until the spring of 2001 that their bodies were found, and, as most people imagined, they had been murdered
Is this what christians do to someone they don't like? Kill 'em? Do these christians know how to deal with evil? Yep, they just kill them...

Quote:
Freedome of Information: Atheists believe that more mistakes are made from ignorance than anything else. So, they're all for people of every age having free access to all kinds of information. For example, they're into minors having complete access to information about sex so they can learn about it before they make mistakes.
What other reasons are mistakes made from rather than ignorance? Stupidity? God made me do it?

I think it's up to the parent to make a responsible decision for when they teach their child about sex. If they want to do that at 6 years old, I disagree with it but what can you do to stop the parent? Do what they did to poor old Madalyn and pop a cap in their ass?
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(Posted as Kyrina)
Posts: 110/329
(30-Jan-2003 at 07:37)


I just want to remind everyone that this is from a book that I'm reading and not my own words or views. I'm just curious if those out there who say they are Atheist fall into this description.

Thanks in advance to those who respond.

LVL 80 Draenei Shaman
Alliance FTW!!!
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(Posted as Steiger)
Posts: 121/381
(30-Jan-2003 at 07:39)


My statements are aimed towards the content of the book not anyone personally
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(Posted as Kyrina)
Posts: 111/329
(30-Jan-2003 at 07:42)


I understand that, I was just making a general comment to those reading this thread. Sorry if there was a misunderstanding.

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(Posted as HH JMQ XXX)
Posts: 36/121
(30-Jan-2003 at 08:15)


Anything posted by me in this thread is NOT necessarily my view or belief. Consider me not as a person who follows any religion, but as a person who is versed in the bible and the Christian religion. The "Devil's advocate", if you will.

Quote:
I can certainly smell natural gas and I can see the wind when its a tornado roaring towards my house at 500 miles an hour. What are God's effects?
One could say look around you. Look at the cat curled up on your couch, or the dog lapping water out of a bowl. A rose, a pine tree, you get the point.

Some might argue that there is no proof that God created anything. A valid argument, but the counter argument could be the Bible. It states that all things are created of God.

Again, you could argue a lack of proof that the Bible is correct, and that it's never been made certain that the Bible wasn't just written by some guy at some point in history. Again the counter arguments are as follows.

-Fact: The Bible predicted many things before they happened, such as the downfall of the city of Babylon.

-Fact: Parts of the Bible are still being found, with scientists and historians dating them to before such a time when man took accurate recordings of history.

-Fact: The Bible continues to predict things that are happening as we speak.

Therefore, one would conclude that the statement "All things ar of God", which is taken from the Bible, is a fact also.

Quote:
Is this what christians do to someone they don't like? Kill 'em? Do these christians know how to deal with evil? Yep, they just kill them...
I'm sure we've all heard the phrase "easier said than done". That applies here, as in it's easier to claim you're a Christian than to follow the Christian rule book, per say. You can label any person a Christian, that doesn't make them a Christian.

Likewise, you can call a fish a cat, but it will never be a cat. You can call it a frog, a human, a mouse, whatever you please. The fish is still a fish.You can call a person a Christian, but unless certain things are true, they aren't real Christians. Don't label the few due to the actions of the many.

#AA|136654862
Deus de Inferi|Hells Horses|Warlord of the Apocalypse
And behold the pale horse; The man seated upon him
was death, and hell followed close behind - Revelations 6.8


Last edited by HH SCM, 30-Jan-2003 at 08:17.
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(Posted as Kyrina)
Posts: 112/329
(30-Jan-2003 at 08:22)


In response to the murders, I'm sure it could have been anyone that disagreed with her, that killed her. Not necessarily a Christian.

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(Posted as zuzu24)
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(30-Jan-2003 at 08:48)


you know, if i could be bothered reading all that, it might be interesting!!
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(Posted as HurleyBD)
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(30-Jan-2003 at 08:54)


But I am sure it was the Christians who take it most to heart. Yes I believe that morality and evil both come from people themselves. I have said this many times, that people dont give themselves enough credit for what theyve done. When someone gets successful, they say "God blessed me and brought me here". Well why does god care about your success? Why did he choose you and not anyone else?

God is a stupid, outdated belief.

Life is a test and I get bad marks.
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(30-Jan-2003 at 09:04)
Quote:
(Originally posted by HurleyBD)

But I am sure it was the Christians who take it most to heart. Yes I believe that morality and evil both come from people themselves. I have said this many times, that people dont give themselves enough credit for what theyve done. When someone gets successful, they say "God blessed me and brought me here". Well why does god care about your success? Why did he choose you and not anyone else?

God is a stupid, outdated belief.
evil does not come from people themselves..... it is the world that polluted the people with evil.......

God care about me because he created me.....

because i bothered to seek him and not others......
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(30-Jan-2003 at 09:05)


I'm an Atheist

I just feel like sharing atheism from my point of view.
I understand religion and I accept and respect that people do believe, and hope they understand that I don't.

Background:
I became an atheist much in the same way as people become religious; I'm born and raised that way.
My parents were extremely open minded and explained religion to me in neutral and informative ways when I was a child, but they never disguised the fact that they did not believe it.
My grandmother is a fanatical Christian; but if you're family she'll let you get away with it, even though she disapproves. I know she doesn't like the fact that I'm living with my boyfriend, and that we aren't married, she won't tell her friends about us, but she doesn't make a point out of it.

Belief:
I like to refer to myself as a devout atheist. Actually I don't think I am, I just like oxymorons... (I also call myself a non-practicing Communist.)
The truth is that I simply just don't believe in a God. I don't believe in much super natural at all.
I believe in a kind of non-concious evolution.
Things aren't meant to happen. But nature/evolution takes into account that they might.
Like giant disasters; asteroids, earth quakes, that type of things... I think evolution expects to be re-set every once in a while and be given the chance to start over.
I also believe that diseases are a way for nature to tell us that there are too many of us... Like AIDS and cancer... I think Mother Nature is trying to balance the human race by getting rid of the surplus (survival of the fittest). But not really in a divine way.
So on a religious scale it all boils down to the fact that I don't believe in God. I can't imagine there being a supreme being controlling everything. I'm not logicing my way out of it, I simply don't think so.

I don't believe in faith. It scares me sometimes, especially when I think of how small coincidences have changed my life so drasticaly at some point.
In 1986 my brother was born. He was born three weeks late, delivered by cecearian preformed by an incompetent doctor who almost killed him. during this process my brother lost his hearing. His deafness has guided our lives in many ways; the whole family has learned sign language, my parents lived apart for a year as my mother was studying advanced sign language, my mother became a teacher for deaf children, and most drastically; my parents adopted a deaf girl from Colombia.
If that doctor who shouldn't have been at work that night in 1986, had been home sleeping like he should. My brother would be a normal hearing teenager. And I wouldn't have my little sister...

Then there's the issue of the soul...
I believe very strongly in the individual, I believe in personality, I believe in thoughts and wishes and dreams, but I don't believe in a soul.
I believe that everything that makes you you is stored in your brain. A tumor in the wrong place can cause your personality to change, and so can medications... For good or bad.
I believe that if you re-build a person, molecule for molecule, atom for atom, the duplicate will (unlike a clone) have the same memories, dreams, thoughts and feelings, but only until the first seperate experience they have.

Wishes:
I wish I could believe some things.
When my grandmother died I wished there was an afterlife, I wanted to believe that she was still around somewhere. It would have been a great comfort.
I wan't to believe in good and evil. I want to blame all things bad on sombody. Unfortunately; I can't.

Gwill http://emblems.utopiatemple.com/pic00232.gif
ICQ #47751994
There are only 10 kinds of people in the world:
Those who understand binary, and those who don't.

Last edited by Gwill, 30-Jan-2003 at 09:13.
Edit reason: spelling...
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(Posted as Steiger)
Posts: 122/381
(30-Jan-2003 at 09:10)


It could have been anyone that murdered madalyn, but that quote to me implies that she was murdered because of the atheist movement she started, so it could have been some person of any religion not just christianity.

Please let me make it clear I wasn't trying to discriminate against christians or anyone in what I said before, I meant it to everyone regardles of religion

Quote:
Madalyn Murray O'Hair has been called "the most hated woman in America." In 1995, she, her son, and her grand-daughter all disappeared. It wasn't until the spring of 2001 that their bodies were found, and, as most people imagined, they had been murdered.
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(Posted as HurleyBD)
Posts: 324/2385
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(30-Jan-2003 at 09:37)


Quote:
evil does not come from people themselves..... it is the world that polluted the people with evil.......
God created the world. How can it be evil if god is good? The world isn't anything without man, so in essence men are both good and evil.

Quote:
God care about me because he created me.....
Your parent created you, not god.

Quote:
because i bothered to seek him and not others......
Now I am sure there are tons of poor Christians. They seek god yet they still live horrible lives. Why would god give you an easy life and another a bad one?

Life is a test and I get bad marks.
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(Posted as HH JMQ XXX)
Posts: 37/121
(30-Jan-2003 at 09:44)


And again, the same could be adapted to anyone Steiger. Osama Bin Laden calls himself a follower of the Muslim faith. He claims to have killed several thousand people in the name of Islam. However, various Muslim scholars have stepped up and said that the Muslim religion is not about that, and that Osama Bin Laden is not following the religion as it is meant to be. My statements can be adapted to any religion.

Hurley, honestly. There is no need to call someone's beliefs "stupid and outdated". That's like me telling Louie Armstrong that jazz music is stupid and outdated just because I don't like it.

Quote:
But I am sure it was the Christians who take it most to heart.
I'm sure they take it most to heart, but what does that prove? If someone calls my little sister a slut, who takes it most to heart other than her? Me, her father, her mother, etc. Her friends may not appreciate it either, but I'm sure they would never feel as strongly as her family would about it. Does that go to say that we should be blamed when whoever called her that finds themselves in an unfortunate situation? Not necessarily.

Quote:
I have said this many times, that people dont give themselves enough credit for what theyve done. When someone gets successful, they say "God blessed me and brought me here". Well why does god care about your success? Why did he choose you and not anyone else?
I agree that people don't giver themselves enough credit. However, that's all I agree with. Think of God as a father. If his children succeed, he's happy about it.

Now that's not to say that he picks me over you or vice versa. We are still human and still have our own wills. The choices we make decide if we become the junkie on the street or the successful business man/woman.

Note: Let me just reaffirm that I am not Christian, or any other religion. I am by no means an Atheist, I purely choose not to have a religion. I believe there may be some truth to the Bible (no one has proved it to be wrong yet) but I don't follow it's word in everyday life. I am merely an educated person.

And, just a little off topic thing here. Being that I normally keep myself holed up in AD, I don't know the majority of people in UT, so I have never heard of or spoken to Gwill, let alone seen her avatar... but now that I have, *drools*

#AA|136654862
Deus de Inferi|Hells Horses|Warlord of the Apocalypse
And behold the pale horse; The man seated upon him
was death, and hell followed close behind - Revelations 6.8

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(Posted as HH JMQ XXX)
Posts: 38/121
(30-Jan-2003 at 09:50)


Quote:
God created the world. How can it be evil if god is good? The world isn't anything without man, so in essence men are both good and evil.
Like I said, we all still have our own will.

Quote:
Your parent created you, not god.
As stated in my previous statement, all things are of God. You could say the computer that I am using right now was created by Gateway, but when you break down everything used to make this computer, you will eventually get to things that were not created by any living being.

Quote:
Now I am sure there are tons of poor Christians. They seek god yet they still live horrible lives. Why would god give you an easy life and another a bad one?
Again, it's all about a person's will. God doesn't look down and say, "I'll give this guy a winning lottery ticket, and I'll let this guy blow his last $10 on a losing ticket."

#AA|136654862
Deus de Inferi|Hells Horses|Warlord of the Apocalypse
And behold the pale horse; The man seated upon him
was death, and hell followed close behind - Revelations 6.8

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(Posted as HurleyBD)
Posts: 327/2385
Donated $6.72
(30-Jan-2003 at 09:56)


Now can you honestly believe it wasnt a religious fanatic who didnt kill that woman and her family? They were fighting against the very thing people believed in their entire lives. That is a motive and a half.

I was not referring to any specific religion when I said God. The idea of a god is now stupid and outdated.

Life is a test and I get bad marks.
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(30-Jan-2003 at 10:00)
Quote:
-Fact: The Bible continues to predict things that are happening as we speak
I was just wondering what exactly the bible is predicting.... and whether or not the predictions are similar to those read in horoscopes e.g "You will find something frustrating but you will be able to overcome it"
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(Posted as HH JMQ XXX)
Posts: 39/121
(30-Jan-2003 at 10:48)


Quote:
Now can you honestly believe it wasnt a religious fanatic who didnt kill that woman and her family?
Do I believe it was a religious fanatic? Yes. Does that necessarily mean it was a true follower of the religion that he or she claims to follow? Not by any means. Like I said, don't label the few for the acts of many.

Quote:
I was just wondering what exactly the bible is predicting.... and whether or not the predictions are similar to those read in horoscopes e.g "You will find something frustrating but you will be able to overcome it"
For your reference, I will quote the Bible so you can go back and see that what I say is accurate.

"But know this, that in the last days critical times hard to deal with will be here. For men will be lovers of themselves, lovers of money, self-assuming, haughty, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, disloyal, having no natural affection, not open to any agreement, slanderers, without any self control, fierce, without love of goodness, betrayers, headstrong, puffed up with pride, lovers of pleasures rather than lovers of God, having a form of Godly devotion but proving false to its power..." -2 Timothy 3:1-5

That is but one example that holds true to so many of todays events and crcumstances that developed over time. Not always was this true, yet it was written for all to see; an accurate prediction.

Quote:
For men will be lovers of themselves
Narcissism runs rampant in our world.

Quote:
lovers of money
People will do anything for money these days. Degrading one's own self is not above most people when it comes to this.

Quote:
blasphemers
This can be considered, among other things, the Catholic church. Rather than have thier priests face the consequences of thier actions, they would rather hide them. They refuse to put a stop to this epidemic by simply stripping them of thier preisthoods and sending the information they have to the authorities; that goes against what they preach in thier sermons every Sunday.

Quote:
disobedient to parents
Consider all the children you see today that show no respect to thier parents at all.

Quote:
disloyal
Consider all the cheating husbands and wives that you find in the present day.

Quote:
having no natural affection
Take into account all the mass murderers we've had in the past 50 to 100 years.

I'm sure that I've made my point clear, but if not, let me know and I'll relate the rest of the list to present day problems as well.

Just one last point.

Quote:
having a form of Godly devotion but proving false to its power
This goes along with what I've been saying about false Christians. Thier form of Godly devotion is Christianity; proving false to it's power is commiting those murders.

Now, when you look at this, don't immediately say that this stuff has been happening for a long time. To us, a long time is 1, 2, 300 years even. However, take into consideration that the Bible is several thousand years old. 100 or 200 years is not that long considering how long the Bible has been in existance.

#AA|136654862
Deus de Inferi|Hells Horses|Warlord of the Apocalypse
And behold the pale horse; The man seated upon him
was death, and hell followed close behind - Revelations 6.8


Last edited by HH SCM, 30-Jan-2003 at 10:51.
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(30-Jan-2003 at 11:04)
There are very few Atheists that are like u say.

I don't belive in anything, but I don't want to call myself an atheist. I'm nothing! "we" do not excist. Everyone believes in what they want.

And soon, in the future, Christianity will be proved wrong, like almost every other religion on the planet has been proved wrong already.

Not in my lifetime, but in the future. We discover more and more, so one way or another, religions will be proved wrong, but new will come.



Religion is ignorance

Last edited by stoffi, 30-Jan-2003 at 11:05.
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(Posted as HH JMQ XXX)
Posts: 40/121
(30-Jan-2003 at 11:29)


Quote:
like almost every other religion on the planet has been proved wrong already
I've backed my statements with facts; care to do the same? Give me examples of extablished religions that have been proven wrong, backed with fact.

Ignorance is not knowing your facts.

#AA|136654862
Deus de Inferi|Hells Horses|Warlord of the Apocalypse
And behold the pale horse; The man seated upon him
was death, and hell followed close behind - Revelations 6.8


Last edited by HH SCM, 30-Jan-2003 at 11:32.
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