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(23-Mar-2005 at 00:04)
Is God an Atheist?

I started thinking about what kind of religion the christian god would follow, and ended up with some quite interesting thoughts. At first glance, it would seem logical to perceive god as the “ultimate christian”, which means he is a theist. Generally being a theist simply means belief in god as such, but actually it entails several other beliefs. For instance, it also directly means belief in a creator or first cause. It means belief in an external moral authority. Further, it implies a dependant relationship between the believer and the object of belief (god). How would god himself perceive theism under these added conditions?

Beginning with the first one, it can be safely assumed that god believes he has existed eternally. Hence, for him there is no creator, or first cause, and he would not profess to believe in one. Does god then believe in an external moral authority? (Note that the authority must be external, for if it were internal every human would be able to posit his own morals, which is rather un-christian.) Again, god is infallible, incapable of doing wrong and believes in no higher authority than himself. Does god then have any kind of a relationship with the object of his theistic belief, namely himself? Despite his omnipotence, it seems rather absurd to picture him deferring to himself, and a schizophrenic god hardly fits the picture.

Moreover, who does god pray to? Is he really as humble as a good christian is expected to be? As far as I can tell, he even does a pretty bad job following the ten commandments, especially with the “don’t kill” part. All in all, it seems that god is a pretty bad christian, despite his greatness. As a matter of fact, it seems that god is nothing less than an atheist, and a positive atheist at that. Picture that, the cornerstone of western theism himself rejecting the concept…

Keeping that in mind, and taking it a bit further, it seems that satan, on the other hand, has the makings of a theist. Furthermore, as a christian is supposedly defined by his beliefs rather than his actions, satan apparently is a devout christian as well! He certainly believes in a creator and he believes in god. He certainly believes that jesus is the savior of men, seeing as he went quite a ways in trying to sabotage his mission. What else is there? Well, he would be hard pressed to not believe in heaven and hell, or he’d be homeless. He’s certainly witnessed a few of god’s miracles in his time. According to christian dogma god will ultimately prevail of satan, so subsequently satan does indeed have a deferent relationship to god. While perhaps not acquiescing to it, he acknowledges an external ultimate moral authority, because if he got to determine morals I suspect hell would get quite crowed. I don’t know if satan prays all that often, but that hardly matters as we’ve already established it doesn’t really matter if he’s a good or a bad christian; its enough that he is one.

I findit extremely amusing to note that from such a simple question it follows that god is an atheist and satan is a christian, in particular since it seems to that some christians perceive atheism as somehow sinful or wrong. Figured I’d just share this bit of insight
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(23-Mar-2005 at 01:17)


to be an athiest he must conclude that god does not exist - therefore hes saying he does not exist

thats a logical paradox

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(23-Mar-2005 at 02:24)


You can take this even further. Using this, God is going to Hell and Satan is going to Heaven (Jesus forgives all, so long as you acknowledge him as the Lord and Saviour of mankind). Because of this, it is, in fact, Satan to whom we should pray, and doing otherwise is a demonic ritual (worshipping one who resides in Hell? Blasphemy!). God would then be too proud to believe in the ultimate authority of Satan, and Satan, not being the first creator, could not honestly worship himself as a god, forcing them to switch places again, leading to a paradoxical loop. Using this, we can conclude that Christianity is incorrect.

"If only there were evil people somewhere insidiously committing evil deeds, and if it were necessary only to separate them from the rest of us and destroy them. But the line dividing good and evil cuts through the heart of every human being. And who is willing to destroy a piece of his own heart?"
~Alexandr Solzhenitsyn

Last edited by Obi2Kenobi, 23-Mar-2005 at 02:25.
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(23-Mar-2005 at 08:35)
Quote:
to be an athiest he must conclude that god does not exist - therefore hes saying he does not exist
Everybody believes that they themselves exist, and god certainly is no exception. what the story above relies on, is gods perception of himself.

to recap, an atheist does no believe in:
  • supernatural divine phenomena (miracles)
  • an external moral authority
  • an external first cause
nor does an atheist conceive himself able to have any kind of a relationship with god. it should be clear enough that god shares every single one of these fundamental atheistic beliefs

Quote:
You can take this even further. Using this, God is going to Hell and Satan is going to Heaven (Jesus forgives all, so long as you acknowledge him as the Lord and Saviour of mankind). Because of this, it is, in fact, Satan to whom we should pray, and doing otherwise is a demonic ritual (worshipping one who resides in Hell? Blasphemy!). God would then be too proud to believe in the ultimate authority of Satan, and Satan, not being the first creator, could not honestly worship himself as a god, forcing them to switch places again, leading to a paradoxical loop. Using this, we can conclude that Christianity is incorrect.
picture that... partying it up in heaven with satan, or burning in hell with the old man himself

satan going to heaven is obvious, thanks for pointing that out. im not so sure about god going to hell, though, cause im pretty sure he believes in jesus as well. im not so sure he believes he himself can be saved, however, being perfect and all. i don’t know if that matters, as he still believes that jesus will at the least save us mortals (and apparently satan). but taking another route out, if satan is ultimately in heaven, and all bad guys are satans domain, then once satan dies and goes to heaven everyone in hell has to follow him. thus it makes absolutely no difference how you live your life on earth, as you’re going to heaven eventually no matter what...
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(23-Mar-2005 at 11:24)


I think you a have a problem of perpective...

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(23-Mar-2005 at 12:17)
The subject doesn't make sense...yes I read what you wrote...

Why are you trying to confuse us with stupid babble?
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(23-Mar-2005 at 17:17)
Quote:
The subject doesn't make sense...
fair enuff

im getting the drift that you consider the idea that god is an atheist preposterous. no problem with that, but could you please tell me what kind of religious beliefs god then does have?
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(23-Mar-2005 at 20:29)


Quote:
(Originally posted by Obi2Kenobi)

You can take this even further. Using this, God is going to Hell and Satan is going to Heaven (Jesus forgives all, so long as you acknowledge him as the Lord and Saviour of mankind). Because of this, it is, in fact, Satan to whom we should pray, and doing otherwise is a demonic ritual (worshipping one who resides in Hell? Blasphemy!). God would then be too proud to believe in the ultimate authority of Satan, and Satan, not being the first creator, could not honestly worship himself as a god, forcing them to switch places again, leading to a paradoxical loop. Using this, we can conclude that Christianity is incorrect.
God can't go to hell nor devil can redeme his/hers/its deeds... Satan's soul or what's left of it, is so badly twisted and corrupted that saving that kind soul is impossible and due nature of the devil, his redeming and accepting Jesus as his lord is infact impossible. Even our souls will turn souls that cannot be saved after the curcial decision not believe in God and Jesus and when we enforce it enough long...

I think God does actually belief everything because he knows everything. God do not need religious believes, because God, has knowledge about everything in universe because he is perfect being that witch existance we cannot ever understant in this form.

If you want to have some answer what God believes: He believes in himself maybe?

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(24-Mar-2005 at 23:53)


Quote:
If you want to have some answer what God believes: He believes in himself maybe?
Therefore it's an INtrinsic belief, not an EXtrinsic belief. So God is an atheist.

Quote:
Satan's soul or what's left of it, is so badly twisted and corrupted that saving that kind soul is impossible and due nature of the devil,
Got any Biblical backing for that? If God can redeem prostitutes and their ilk, why not Satan? All it says is that you have to believe in God and accept him. Satan evidently does both. So he's going to heaven, yes?

Quote:
Why are you trying to confuse us with stupid babble?
I suppose we have been asking the same question to Christians for many, many years. But at least we make an attempt to qualify WHY we think it is "stupid babble." Are you having issues with your faith that aren't confident in actually responding?
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(25-Mar-2005 at 20:34)


Bible states that he who blazphemizes the Holy Ghost will never get his or her sins forgiven. That is only sin that is unforgiven... And Many has done that, even devil...

Instrict belief = Atheism... But if God believes in himself, he cannot really be atheists, because believing in himself, he doesn't really become non-existing... So that's quite paradoxial...

Generalization is rhetorics of simpletons.
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(Posted as Lodewijk)
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(25-Mar-2005 at 23:33)


Quote:
But if God believes in himself, he cannot really be atheists, because believing in himself, he doesn't really become non-existing
It's not about existence. It's about submission or acceptance of an extant moral authority or arbiter. Since, according to Christianity, there is none beyond God himself, by the definition of the word, the guy upstairs is an atheist.
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(26-Mar-2005 at 18:15)


Oh, well, if it makes you happy go on... I think that's very illogical and paradoxial but, its just me... I just that kind explonation is just made because just have to force everything in your belief and nothing cannot contradict it style... But it wouldn't be 1st time :P

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(28-Mar-2005 at 17:39)
Getting into a semantic discussion as this would be a nonsense but forthe fact that some readers might get confused.

Stating that an atheist is anyone who doesn't accept an EXternal first cause and an EXternal moral authority is your saying and becomes a semantic trap as soon as one forgets that it defines a atheist creature; God is NOT a creature, He is The Creator.

Of couse God knows Himself and acknowleges Himself; actually He is the only one Being that does so perfectly. Jesus, the Word of God, the Second Person of the Holy Trinity, the Son of God (human words are a sorrow tool to describe the Absolute) told he was the One Who knew the God, His Father and the Same One as Him: and that he was in this world to do His Father will, i.e., to lead all those human beings who accepted Him back to God - those are the Christians.

A Christian (person) accepts Jesus as the Master, Lord and Saviour, not just His existence and His power. Satan rebeled against God, what means he knows God's power but jealousy and pride lead him to oppose God; the problem with his redemption is that he doesn't accepts it. Take also Juda, the traitor: he knew Jesus, had seen His miracles, he was even sorry for betraying Him; but, once aware of his sin, he refused (as far as we know from his attitude) forgiveness, denied God's power to forgive and, doing so, denied the Holy Spirit, so he really choosed condamnation.

I hope no one really got mixed up or confused with this thread but, if any, remember that semantics and false premisis are often a trap for human mind and the above is just my contribution to get things back in their right focus.
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(28-Mar-2005 at 23:26)


Quote:
(Originally posted by Simkin)

Everybody believes that they themselves exist, and god certainly is no exception. what the story above relies on, is gods perception of himself.

to recap, an atheist does no believe in:
  • supernatural divine phenomena (miracles)
  • an external moral authority
  • an external first cause
nor does an atheist conceive himself able to have any kind of a relationship with god. it should be clear enough that god shares every single one of these fundamental atheistic beliefs
1. God certainly believes in super natural divine phenomena because he is the cause of them.

2. and 3. Religious people do not define their beliefs by an "external" moral authority or first cause. They define their beliefs by "divine" moral authority and first cause. The fact that humans are not divine and therefore we believe in an external divine figure is just a coincidence.
God would believe in a divine moral authority as well, it is just that his is internal.
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(28-Mar-2005 at 23:38)


Quote:
(Originally posted by Obi2Kenobi)

Using this, we can conclude that Christianity is incorrect.
My advice is to not try to use paradox to disprove religion, and if you are, compile yourself a nice list, or maybe find some paradoxes the church doesn't officially recognize. The church holds most paradoxes as holy, actually, an example of the omnipotence of God.

This whole thread is based on the assumption that God is like us. I know the bible says that God made man in his own image, but if you are true to your beliefs and you think that God would use logic as systematically flawed as that of a human, you're either in your own little world, or you have an ego to match that of Elan.

My personal defintion of God is that he's unfathomable, an entity that exists totally outside of our ken. I doubt he had the bible be made, unless for some far-reaching plot that we as humans cannot begin to understand. I doubt he reproduced and created another aspect of himself, and I doubt that God's so petty to wonder about religion.

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(29-Mar-2005 at 02:03)


It was actually more symbolic of how often many religious people (well, and non-religious people too...) build assumptions within assumptions, attempting to frame the debate about the second layer, hoping the first layer will become accepted as fact in doing so, as it is required to accept the premises in such a thing to debate about the second set of premises from which the final conclusion was drawn. Or, if I were to keep up the illusion of my belief in the validity of these claims...

Disprove? Ha! The abstract nature of god is beyond such human understanding, and it is only through concrete examples and comparisons to the real world that we can even begin to comprehend him.

"If only there were evil people somewhere insidiously committing evil deeds, and if it were necessary only to separate them from the rest of us and destroy them. But the line dividing good and evil cuts through the heart of every human being. And who is willing to destroy a piece of his own heart?"
~Alexandr Solzhenitsyn

Last edited by Obi2Kenobi, 29-Mar-2005 at 02:10.
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(29-Mar-2005 at 02:57)


Hmmm, God may have made us like his own image but we cannot be sure. When I read Genesis, I get impression 1st he created human beings as his own images and later he created us, humans again...

So are we truely His image? Bible says something like no man is really able to watch and see God in his glory...

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(29-Mar-2005 at 06:41)


'course god is a theist. "Hold no other gods before me," right? So he believes in gods, elsewise he wouldn't say not to hold 'em before him.



Okay, that's irrational, but then again so is everyone else in this thread. Thought I'd join in. I'm so lonely...
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(29-Mar-2005 at 09:22)
Quote:
(Originally posted by Viriatus)
I hope no one really got mixed up or confused with this thread but, if any, remember that semantics and false premisis are often a trap for human mind and the above is just my contribution to get things back in their right focus.
Come on, noone got confused here. It's actually pretty funny.
So, what makes you think your contribution gets anything in the right focus? What is that, anyway?

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To do aught good never will be our task, but ever to do ill our sole delight, as being the contrary to his high will whom we resist. If then his Providence out of our evil seek to bring forth good, our labor must be to pervert that end, and out of good still find means of evil.
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(29-Mar-2005 at 11:56)
Quote:
Come on, noone got confused here.
I'm glad to hear that, HC, I whish it's true and some of the above posts are simply lacking clarity of language (as my own post probably are, since it's not so easy for me to express very well in a foreign language...)
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