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Posts: 1335/1637
(31-Aug-2011 at 12:56)
Reality and Consciousness

Describe the universe which exists beyond what you are conscious of.

Having trouble?

That's because you have to be conscious of something in order to verify whether it exist. There is actually no evidence that reality even exists beyond that which we are conscious.

If I were to suppose that there existed a vast, objective universe out there somewhere beyond what I am conscious of, I would also have to suppose that there existed an immense consciousness out there to verify the totality of that universe, because there is no evidence that reality even exists beyond consciousness.

To summerize: There is no evidence of reality existing beyond that which we are conscious. Therefore, the supposition of a greater universe beyond that which we are conscious is also the supposition that there is a greater consciousness out there to verify it for us.

Last edited by Gotterdammerung, 31-Aug-2011 at 13:05.
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(31-Aug-2011 at 20:00)


Re: Reality and Consciousness

Originally Posted by Gotterdammerung: View Post
Describe the universe which exists beyond what you are conscious of.

Having trouble?

That's because you have to be conscious of something in order to verify whether it exist. There is actually no evidence that reality even exists beyond that which we are conscious.

If I were to suppose that there existed a vast, objective universe out there somewhere beyond what I am conscious of, I would also have to suppose that there existed an immense consciousness out there to verify the totality of that universe, because there is no evidence that reality even exists beyond consciousness.

To summerize: There is no evidence of reality existing beyond that which we are conscious. Therefore, the supposition of a greater universe beyond that which we are conscious is also the supposition that there is a greater consciousness out there to verify it for us.
Edit... cos I can.

There doesn't need to a be a conciousness aware of the totality of the universe for the universe to exist. You can either take the view that the universe pops into existence as one become aware of it, or that it exists without anyone needing to observe it.

One might say that god can exist because of this, and one would be right. The problem is that there is not yet any solid evidence to argue for gods existence. For example, before scientists observed Pluto, they had hypothesised it's existence by observing its effects on Uranus and Neptune. There is no evidence of similar standing to hypothesise that god exists.

People, like snowflakes, are all slightly different, but we all follow the same patterns -Stewie
Believe those who are seeking the truth; doubt those who find it.

Some people are like Slinkies- absolutely useless, but always fun to push down stairs!

Last edited by Azure Dragon, 31-Aug-2011 at 22:48.
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(01-Sep-2011 at 01:48)
Re: Reality and Consciousness

Originally Posted by Azure Dragon: View Post
There doesn't need to a be a conciousness aware of the totality of the universe for the universe to exist.
Quote:
...it exists without anyone needing to observe it.
Evidence please.

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The problem is that there is not yet any solid evidence to argue for gods existence.
Yes, there is.

What we have is evidence that consciousness sustains reality, but no evidence of an objective universe existing outside of consciousness.

So then, if there is a reality higher than ourselves (as there seems to be), it must, given the evidence, be sustained by a higher consciousness.
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(01-Sep-2011 at 08:30)


Ah yes. The old matrix question and the answer is..there is no answer. This is the one thing we have to take on well for a lack of a better word faith.


Quote:
That's because you have to be conscious of something in order to verify whether it exist.
Not really. Merely being conscious or even aware of something doesn't mean it's a way to verifty that it exists. I am conscious of different spectrums of light but I would need special tools to verfiy them. Same thign with the majority of astronomical events. We are aware of the, we have solid theories based on observation or guesses but we still can't truly verify them

Quote:
If I were to suppose that there existed a vast, objective universe out there somewhere beyond what I am conscious of, I would also have to suppose that there existed an immense consciousness out there to verify the totality of that universe, because there is no evidence that reality even exists beyond consciousness.
You are making the same mistake as before. Starting out with the answer and trying to build on it. You can say just as as easily that there is no evidence that reality doesn't exists beyond consciousness. And so your entire idea of a higher being falls to pieces

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What we have is evidence that consciousness sustains reality, but no evidence of an objective universe existing outside of consciousness.
Please present this so called evidence

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So then, if there is a reality higher than ourselves (as there seems to be), it must, given the evidence, be sustained by a higher consciousness.
Even if this were to be true why must it be a higher consciousness. Why not a swarm ot tiny consciousness. Like bees for example. Or ants. Objectively speaking ants have a much higher success then humans

The very powerful and the very stupid have one thing in common; they don't alter their views to fit the facts, they alter the facts to fit the views
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(01-Sep-2011 at 09:59)
Re: Reality and Consciousness

Originally Posted by DHoffryn: View Post
Ah yes. The old matrix question and the answer is..there is no answer. This is the one thing we have to take on well for a lack of a better word faith.
DHoffryn, a man of faith? Get out.

Quote:
Merely being conscious or even aware of something doesn't mean it's a way to verifty that it exists. I am conscious of different spectrums of light but I would need special tools to verfiy them. Same thign with the majority of astronomical events. We are aware of the, we have solid theories based on observation or guesses but we still can't truly verify them
Sorry, but I never said that. I said "you have to be conscious of something in order to verify whether it exist" as in, you can't verify anything you are not conscious of.

To clarify, consciousness is the pre-requisite of reality is the pre-requisite of evidence.

How would you verify something you have no evidence for? Or how would you find evidence for something that doesn't exist in reality? Or how could you recognise reality if you were not conscious? Etc.

So I am not suggesting verification is inevitable of consciousness, only that consciousness is a pre-requisite of verification.

Anyway, it's good to clarify.

Quote:
You can say just as as easily that there is no evidence that reality doesn't exists beyond consciousness.
Fair point. I should have kept the argument in the positive. So here goes:

Consciousness is a pre-requisite for reality, because without consciousness there is no reality. Reality is a pre-requite for evidence, because without reality there can be no evidence.

So it would be erroneous to suppose that reality exists without consciousness because there can be no evidence of that.

Quote:
Please present this so called evidence
You can remove reality from consciousness without destroying consciousness(delusion), but you cannot remove consciousness from reality without also destroying reality (unconsciousness).

Therefore, consciousness sustains reality, not vice versa.

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Even if this were to be true why must it be a higher consciousness. Why not a swarm ot tiny consciousness.
Many/one, tiny/immense, all of the above. Doesn't really matter. How does reality appear to you? Fragmented or overarching?
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(01-Sep-2011 at 11:27)


Quote:
DHoffryn, a man of faith? Get out.
Well everybody has faith to some degree. Not the religious kind of faith but faith as in believing in some concept without any evidence
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Sorry, but I never said that. I said "you have to be conscious of something in order to verify whether it exist" as in, you can't verify anything you are not conscious of.

To clarify, consciousness is the pre-requisite of reality is the pre-requisite of evidence.

How would you verify something you have no evidence for? Or how would you find evidence for something that doesn't exist in reality? Or how could you recognise reality if you were not conscious? Etc.

So I am not suggesting verification is inevitable of consciousness, only that consciousness is a pre-requisite of verification.

Anyway, it's good to clarify.
Indeed it is. My bad

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Or how would you find evidence for something that doesn't exist in reality?
That's an interesting question. But isn't this what certain branches of physics are dealing with them? Trying to find evidence for things that exist only in theory? I believe that one of the goals of the Large Hadron Collider is to create stuff that has been only theory before

Of course I am not very good at science so I could be wrong

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Consciousness is a pre-requisite for reality, because without consciousness there is no reality. Reality
I think this is kinda like the god situation. We would only end up turning in circles. We can't prove it either way

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You can remove reality from consciousness without destroying consciousness(delusion), but you cannot remove consciousness from reality without also destroying reality (unconsciousness).
Both things would be same actually if you take this approach

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Many/one, tiny/immense, all of the above. Doesn't really matter. How does reality appear to you? Fragmented or overarching?
Sure it does. Because you want to use it as an argument for god. If it's a tiny and below us in development it won't really be like the idea of god

The very powerful and the very stupid have one thing in common; they don't alter their views to fit the facts, they alter the facts to fit the views
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(Posted as Randomized)
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(01-Sep-2011 at 12:13)


Re: Reality and Consciousness

Originally Posted by Gotterdammerung: View Post

If I were to suppose that there existed a vast, objective universe out there somewhere beyond what I am conscious of, I would also have to suppose that there existed an immense consciousness out there to verify the totality of that universe, because there is no evidence that reality even exists beyond consciousness.

To summerize: There is no evidence of reality existing beyond that which we are conscious. Therefore, the supposition of a greater universe beyond that which we are conscious is also the supposition that there is a greater consciousness out there to verify it for us.
There's a village in the Amazon jungle. About 600 natives live there. I've never been there, I've never even heard of the place, and I have no way to verify it. Yet, if I suppose that there are villages in the Amazon jungle I also automatically suppose there is a God. Hm.
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(01-Sep-2011 at 14:44)
Re: Reality and Consciousness

Originally Posted by DHoffryn: View Post
Well everybody has faith to some degree. Not the religious kind of faith but faith as in believing in some concept without any evidence
Care to distinguish religious faith with conceptual faith a little further? I am interested in how they differ.

Quote:
That's an interesting question. But isn't this what certain branches of physics are dealing with them? Trying to find evidence for things that exist only in theory? I believe that one of the goals of the Large Hadron Collider is to create stuff that has been only theory before
Yes, very interesting.

I would still argue that since it has been theorized that consciousness is the ultimate cause of it's existance. Perhaps evidence can modity reality and vice versa and it is not a predetermined pathway.

Something like this:

Consciousnesss

\/

Reality <---> Evidence

Quote:
I think this is kinda like the god situation. We would only end up turning in circles. We can't prove it either way
Quote:
Both things would be same actually if you take this approach
I tend to agree.

Which would make Consciousness <---> Reality <---> Evidence

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Sure it does. Because you want to use it as an argument for god. If it's a tiny and below us in development it won't really be like the idea of god
Maybe it was my lure.

But answer the question: does reality appear to you as fragmented or overarching?

Last edited by Gotterdammerung, 01-Sep-2011 at 14:50.
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(01-Sep-2011 at 15:19)
Re: Reality and Consciousness

Originally Posted by Randomized: View Post
There's a village in the Amazon jungle.
You've already begun with an assumption which is impossible. Either you are conscious of the village, or you're not. If you are not conscious of the village, then I presume the 600 villagers would be conscious and therefore they have a reality. If no one is conscious of the village, then the village has no reality and there is no evidence of its existance.

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Yet, if I suppose that there are villages in the Amazon jungle I also automatically suppose there is a God.
Yes, because all existance requires there to be some kind of consciousness attached to it. The greater the reality you suppose, then the greater the consciousness required to sustain it, or vice versa.
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(01-Sep-2011 at 16:10)


Quote:
Care to distinguish religious faith with conceptual faith a little further? I am interested in how they differ.
Well I suppose it's subjective for everybody. But I guess the impact it has on your life for one thing. For example even though there is no proof one may believe that love is something special more mysterious and deeper then a biochemical reaction. But this belief won't have a level of impact or control in your life like for exmaple having faith that unless you blindly folloiw certain rules from one religion you will suffer an eternity in hell. But again I suppose it's different for every person

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Yes, very interesting.

I would still argue that since it has been theorized that consciousness is the ultimate cause of it's existance. Perhaps evidence can modity reality and vice versa and it is not a predetermined pathway.
I think this is more of the ego talking. That we need to feel special. That we have some important place on the universe. That we matter. But I think our consciousness has a little impact on the universe as space dust and we are just as insignificant. Of course neither theory could proven either way I guess. Especilly since we dealing with reality itself and you are narrowing it down even further to individual reality, Although I suppose that once we have a working virtual reality we would be able to grasp questions much better.

This reminds of a graet quote by Terry Pratchett

I think perhaps the most important problem is that we are trying to understand the fundamental workings of the universe via a language devised for telling one another when the best fruit is.

.

Quote:
But answer the question: does reality appear to you as fragmented or overarching?
Mind elaborating?

The very powerful and the very stupid have one thing in common; they don't alter their views to fit the facts, they alter the facts to fit the views

Last edited by DHoffryn, 01-Sep-2011 at 16:12.
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(01-Sep-2011 at 16:32)
Re: Reality and Consciousness

Originally Posted by DHoffryn: View Post
I think perhaps the most important problem is that we are trying to understand the fundamental workings of the universe via a language devised for telling one another when the best fruit is.
Very funny.

The problem I have is that there is no evidence of an objective universe. It simply pops in and out of our awareness and these is no way to definitive say whether anything really exists independent of that awareness.

If I could prove the existance of an objective reality without the need for conscious involvement I could rule out the plausibility of God right away. I could say, the universe is unconscious and close the book on it. But I can't, and it pains me greatly to have to toy with the idea that every turn there is the necessity for conscious involvement, and maybe it holds the key to this problem.

Last edited by Gotterdammerung, 01-Sep-2011 at 16:33.
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(01-Sep-2011 at 17:32)


Quote:
Very funny.
But in a way also quite true. Even with something as simple as different languages sometimes there isn't a direct translation of the idea people are trying to convey. And the more sophisticated you get the harder the ideas become. Now as I said I don't know much about science but I am pretty sure there are some ideas that can be explained only through some serious math and so on and so on. We are still way too young as scientific civlisation. We just don't have the means to grasp some of the truly complicated ideas


Quote:
The problem I have is that there is no evidence of an objective universe. It simply pops in and out of our awareness and these is no way to definitive say whether anything really exists independent of that awareness.
Hence why I told you about the faith element. This is the ONE thing one simply has to accept on faith otherwise life as whole doesn't work.


Quote:
If I could prove the existance of an objective reality without the need for conscious involvement I could rule out the plausibility of God right away. I could say, the universe is unconscious and close the book on it. But I can't, and it pains me greatly to have to toy with the idea that every turn there is the necessity for conscious involvement, and maybe it holds the key to this problem.
I think again it comes down to ego. In fact I think the very idea of God is due to ego. We want to feel special. We want to think that some supreme intelliegence cares about us. In your case you want to believe that without our presence the entire universe doesn't exist. I suppose it's a nice enough way to live but I am more cynical. To me humans beings are completely insignificant to the universe


P.S I am guessing that I know what you would answer to the question " "If a tree falls in a forest and no one is around to hear it, does it make a sound?"

The very powerful and the very stupid have one thing in common; they don't alter their views to fit the facts, they alter the facts to fit the views

Last edited by DHoffryn, 01-Sep-2011 at 17:33.
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(02-Sep-2011 at 01:29)
Re: Reality and Consciousness

Originally Posted by DHoffryn: View Post
Mind elaborating?
O.K. back to the god thing:

How do you think an objective reality would differ if it was sustained by lots of tiny consciousness' compared to one great big consciousness? From your impression of existance, how does it stack up? What would each one look like? Since reality appears to be objectivity exactly the same each time it pops into our awareness, it must be sustained by an objective consciousness, i.e. a single consciousness for a single existance.

If on the other hand existance (objective reality) appeared to move and flow and not remain consistent, I would be inclined to say that many tiny consciousness' were involved. But we don't appear to have that situation. The theories of mathematics and so on are a credit to the overarching totality and consistency of the objective universe sustained by a large, undying, upmoving consciousness.

In any case, I really glad with the tone of discussion.
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(02-Sep-2011 at 05:34)


Quote:
O.K. back to the god thing
No need to go back. I mean really no need


Quote:
How do you think an objective reality would differ if it was sustained by lots of tiny consciousness' compared to one great big consciousness?
Why would it differ?

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From your impression of existance, how does it stack up?
Huh?

Quote:
Since reality appears to be objectivity exactly the same each time it pops into our awareness, it must be sustained by an objective consciousness, i.e. a single consciousness for a single existance.
Not really. If anything it's the opposite. A single consciousness would be a very fickle thing. I mean us humans cna barely concentrate on one thing and and with someone higher it would be even worse. Now a lot of lower consciousness would have an easier time sustaining one permanent pattern. Kinda like fish and birds do


Quote:
. The theories of mathematics and so on are a credit to the overarching totality and consistency of the objective universe sustained by a large, undying, upmoving consciousness.
No they don't. Mathamtics and science in general don't really bother with theory like yours except for a few minor exceptions who just like to talk mostly.

The very powerful and the very stupid have one thing in common; they don't alter their views to fit the facts, they alter the facts to fit the views
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(02-Sep-2011 at 20:03)


Quote:
So I am not suggesting verification is inevitable of consciousness, only that consciousness is a pre-requisite of verification.
Not verified does not equal not real. Big hole in your logic right there.

Did Everest exist before it was discovered? Did gravity exist before Newton became conscious of it? Was the world a sphere when everybody thought it was flat? Was the world orbiting the sun when everybody thought the world was the centre of the universe?

"Patriotism is the last refuge of a scoundrel." But let it be considered that he did not mean a real and generous love of our country, but that pretended patriotism which so many, in all ages and countries, have made a cloak of self- interest.
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(04-Sep-2011 at 03:41)


As voice of reason points out, there's a hole in your logic.

One can accept the world around him is real, or he can accept it is a simulation or imagination. If it is a simulation or imagination, then it is conceivable that for something to exist, one would have to conceive it.

If one accepts the world around them is real, then one must accept that it doesn't need their concious, or anyone else's to exist. It would exist regardless of whether a conciousness was perceiving it.

You appear to have taken the logic of one perceiving an imagined or simulated world, and applied it to a real world, and it is here that it fails.

People, like snowflakes, are all slightly different, but we all follow the same patterns -Stewie
Believe those who are seeking the truth; doubt those who find it.

Some people are like Slinkies- absolutely useless, but always fun to push down stairs!
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(05-Sep-2011 at 06:28)
Re: Reality and Consciousness

Originally Posted by Voice of Reason: View Post
Did Everest exist before it was discovered?
If no one or no thing was ever conscious of Everest, then no, it did not exist before it was discovered. There is no way to know that it did.

You might give reasoning about geology etc. indicating that it did exist long ago, but I cold argue that your consciousness also created these impressions and that, again, you have no way to really know this.

Quote:
Did gravity exist before Newton became conscious of it?
An approximate experience of gravity was probably present before the theoretical notion of gravity was discovered. Technically, gravity did not exist before newton, but some other more primitive impression of that force could have.

Just because you are not willingly conscious of something, like gravity, doesn't mean that its impression is any less significant. If, however, we had all been born in zero-gravity and never experienced the force, it would not exist (to us). If no consciousness experienced gravity it would absolutely not exist to anyone. The notion of 'actual' existance is meaningless.

Quote:
Was the world a sphere when everybody thought it was flat?

Was the world orbiting the sun when everybody thought the world was the centre of the universe?
Actually, this particular example is relative. It is possible to model the earth both ways. Just as a geocentric model is mathematically possible, but perhaps not as elegant.

So to answer the question, indeed the earth used to be flat (as it still, legitmately is in some people's minds). Similarly, the earth can be at the centre of the universe. There is no absolutely correct answer to this, only preference.

DHoffryn understood perfectly when he commented about having faith. For the 'real' world to work, you have to take it for granted that it does. But on examination, as I have been trying to argue, from the point of consciousness this is just a faith-based assumption similar in plausibility to the belief in God. I would say that the two actually go together quite well (that is, believing the world to be real independent of consciousness, and believing in God to have created the world through his own consciousness). Both mutually support faith to the grandest of degrees.

Last edited by Gotterdammerung, 05-Sep-2011 at 06:29.
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(06-Sep-2011 at 16:35)


Quote:
If no one or no thing was ever conscious of Everest, then no, it did not exist before it was discovered.
Then how was it discovered, if it didn't already exist to big discovered?


Quote:
There is no way to know that it did.
It still existed, whether you know it or not. i didn't know my wife existed until I met her, but she really did exist. There is a birth certificate and photos and eyewitnesses and loads of stuff to prove it.


Quote:
it would not exist (to us)
Existence is not subjective.


Quote:
So to answer the question, indeed the earth used to be flat (as it still, legitmately is in some people's minds). Similarly, the earth can be at the centre of the universe. There is no absolutely correct answer to this, only preference.
Satellites and round-the-world sailors say you are wrong. We live on a big ball, that is an absolutely correct fact, and you don't get any preference in the matter.

"Patriotism is the last refuge of a scoundrel." But let it be considered that he did not mean a real and generous love of our country, but that pretended patriotism which so many, in all ages and countries, have made a cloak of self- interest.
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(07-Sep-2011 at 01:10)


Re: Reality and Consciousness

Originally Posted by Gotterdammerung: View Post
DHoffryn understood perfectly when he commented about having faith. For the 'real' world to work, you have to take it for granted that it does. But on examination, as I have been trying to argue, from the point of consciousness this is just a faith-based assumption similar in plausibility to the belief in God. I would say that the two actually go together quite well (that is, believing the world to be real independent of consciousness, and believing in God to have created the world through his own consciousness). Both mutually support faith to the grandest of degrees.
I disagree. Regardless of ones faith in the nature of reality, one cannot argue that it doesn't exist.

People, like snowflakes, are all slightly different, but we all follow the same patterns -Stewie
Believe those who are seeking the truth; doubt those who find it.

Some people are like Slinkies- absolutely useless, but always fun to push down stairs!
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(08-Sep-2011 at 05:06)
Re: Reality and Consciousness

Originally Posted by Azure Dragon: View Post
I disagree. Regardless of ones faith in the nature of reality, one cannot argue that it doesn't exist.
Reality and consciousness are intertwined. There is no way to show that reality stands alone outside of consciousness. Because if you arn't conscious, reality doesn't exist.
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