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(Posted as B1ackAurora)
Posts: 423/469
(02-Dec-2011 at 22:42)


A new religion...

in this topic I'm going to make a major assumption. For the purposes of the discussion, I'm going to assume the following: Religions were born back in the days mainly as a way to explain the world with the knowledge and beliefs at hand.

There. That's the assumption. It's not what I wanna discuss here. Just roll with it for the remainder of this topic.

Here's what I wanna discuss:

If a religion was born today in the sense of the assumption, so taking all scientific knowledge at hand in consideration and ignoring scientology crap and suicidal sects, what would it be like?
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(03-Dec-2011 at 07:31)


Why would you ignore Scientology? You may not like it but Scientology, the Moonies and whatver else are still legitimate religions(well where they are not banned). Yes they are crazy but objectively speaking they are only crazier then others because they are new and don't have the authority of the old ones

The very powerful and the very stupid have one thing in common; they don't alter their views to fit the facts, they alter the facts to fit the views
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(03-Dec-2011 at 08:01)


Re: A new religion...

Originally Posted by DHoffryn: View Post
Why would you ignore Scientology? You may not like it but Scientology, the Moonies and whatver else are still legitimate religions(well where they are not banned). Yes they are crazy but objectively speaking they are only crazier then others because they are new and don't have the authority of the old ones
So basically what you're saying is religion would be more like scientology with science fiction of its sects being replaced by science fact to make a modern religion?

A new religion would be recognizing science as an official religion. But I think the name Atheism and Agnostic are already taken.

PANIC!
I take the "the" out of psychotherapist.
Winners are just losers who suck at losing. And if there's anything that I suck at, it's losing.
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(03-Dec-2011 at 15:38)


Quote:
So basically what you're saying is religion would be more like scientology with science fiction of its sects being replaced by science fact to make a modern religion?
What I am saying is that Scientology and the Moonies ARE new religions born in time of science. And they are just as crazy as the old ones. Science doesn't make much difference

The very powerful and the very stupid have one thing in common; they don't alter their views to fit the facts, they alter the facts to fit the views
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(Posted as B1ackAurora)
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(03-Dec-2011 at 20:05)


Well why don't we use this topic to create one that is... less crazy? just for fun, ofcourse.
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(03-Dec-2011 at 23:31)


Re: A new religion...

Originally Posted by DHoffryn: View Post
What I am saying is that Scientology and the Moonies ARE new religions born in time of science. And they are just as crazy as the old ones. Science doesn't make much difference
We're saying the same thing, just with different words .

Quote:
Well why don't we use this topic to create one that is... less crazy? just for fun, ofcourse.
Effin eh! Although that sounds like something that belongs in the loon bin doesnt it?

PANIC!
I take the "the" out of psychotherapist.
Winners are just losers who suck at losing. And if there's anything that I suck at, it's losing.
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(04-Dec-2011 at 03:09)
Transhumanism and Industrial Society as decribed by Theodore Kaczynski.
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(04-Dec-2011 at 05:26)


Re: A new religion...

Originally Posted by Gotterdammerung: View Post
Transhumanism and Industrial Society as decribed by Theodore Kaczynski.
I dont have time to interpret that. Care to elaborate?

PANIC!
I take the "the" out of psychotherapist.
Winners are just losers who suck at losing. And if there's anything that I suck at, it's losing.
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(04-Dec-2011 at 07:43)
Re: A new religion...

Originally Posted by Unreal21: View Post
I dont have time to interpret that. Care to elaborate?
The question was what a new modern day religion would look like. The answer: Transhumanism.

For context I mentioned the writings of Kaczynski. You will find a lot in common with behaviour of mass religion and the emergence of Industrial Society as he puts it.

I think when people start putting faith and the promise of salvation in machines, it classifies as religion.

-> Would you like to know more?
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(Posted as B1ackAurora)
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(04-Dec-2011 at 09:39)


Yeh I would like to know more

(was that a startship troopers reference?)
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(05-Dec-2011 at 05:20)
Re: A new religion...

Originally Posted by B1ackAurora: View Post
Yeh I would like to know more

(was that a startship troopers reference?)
Haha! Indeed it was!
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(06-Dec-2011 at 07:07)
But you may dislike that I view Starship Troopers like an Orwellian dystopia - a parody even - dispute what the original author never intended it to be. The movies' hyperbole confirmed this perception to me.
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(06-Dec-2011 at 12:50)


Re: A new religion...

Originally Posted by Gotterdammerung: View Post
But you may dislike that I view Starship Troopers like an Orwellian dystopia - a parody even - dispute what the original author never intended it to be. The movies' hyperbole confirmed this perception to me.
Don't worry about that. What the author intended is irrelevant. Intentional Fallacy, Reader Response Theory, Death of the Author, all that stuff. All that matters is how you react to the text.


Quote:
I think when people start putting faith and the promise of salvation in machines, it classifies as religion.
I think you are wrong. *Blind* faith classifies religion. Justified faith does not. If I owned a car, and it was a well-maintained reasonably new car, I would have faith that it would start when I turned the key. That is not 'religion' because I have good reason for that faith. Religions, in contrast, have faith in the existence of various deities despite a complete absence of any reason to believe in them.


On modern religions, I think the definition needs to be extended to any broadly accepted idea that lacks any rational support. This would then take in such notions as tax cuts creating jobs, spending cuts helping economies to grow, denial of global warming, the existence of flying saucers, or whales/monkeys/birds/whatever having language.

"Patriotism is the last refuge of a scoundrel." But let it be considered that he did not mean a real and generous love of our country, but that pretended patriotism which so many, in all ages and countries, have made a cloak of self- interest.
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(07-Dec-2011 at 05:45)
Re: A new religion...

Originally Posted by Voice of Reason: View Post
I think you are wrong. *Blind* faith classifies religion. Justified faith does not. If I owned a car, and it was a well-maintained reasonably new car, I would have faith that it would start when I turned the key. That is not 'religion' because I have good reason for that faith. Religions, in contrast, have faith in the existence of various deities despite a complete absence of any reason to believe in them.
Okay, let me take a step back here and mention Kaczynski again.

Technology is viewed as forcing mankind into surrogate activities, i.e. passive actions which involve the agent of another or a machine to do all the work for them, thus reducing the inherent power of said indiviual.

To use your example, you may drive a car, but since the car is doing the work for you, then the less work You have done to achieve set result. Normally, this is seen as a good thing, but as the process continues, technology slowly makes you less relevant and less powerful.

So then, I agree completely with your idea of religion being linked with irrationally. This aspect I mention, of willingly reducing your own power, seems irrational to me.

Quote:
On modern religions, I think the definition needs to be extended to any broadly accepted idea that lacks any rational support. This would then take in such notions as tax cuts creating jobs, spending cuts helping economies to grow, denial of global warming, the existence of flying saucers, or whales/monkeys/birds/whatever having language.
I second this, though I think all of these things mentioned can simply be labelled as superstitious, communially known as cults, and then only religion when like superstition are held on a mass scale.
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(Posted as B1ackAurora)
Posts: 427/469
(07-Dec-2011 at 06:10)


Re: A new religion...

Originally Posted by Gotterdammerung: View Post
Okay, let me take a step back here and mention Kaczynski again.

Technology is viewed as forcing mankind into surrogate activities, i.e. passive actions which involve the agent of another or a machine to do all the work for them, thus reducing the inherent power of said indiviual.

To use your example, you may drive a car, but since the car is doing the work for you, then the less work You have done to achieve set result. Normally, this is seen as a good thing, but as the process continues, technology slowly makes you less relevant and less powerful.

So then, I agree completely with your idea of religion being linked with irrationally. This aspect I mention, of willingly reducing your own power, seems irrational to me.
It seems to me it's less being dependant on them and more utilizing them to extend our capibilities. My car might break down, so yeh it has the power to make me late for work. It wasn't a consious malignent decision. It doesnt mean I shouldnt own a car to get to work.
And yeh when society breaks down (see new orleans) people get hurt and die. But once again only because we used technology to extend our capibilities. In this case, the level of population we can sustain within a certain area. We could take away all technology, and our world population would drop like a stone. But we wouldnt become extinct. So it's really not -total- dependence, thus the machines don't wield -total- power.



Quote:
I second this, though I think all of these things mentioned can simply be labelled as superstitious, communially known as cults, and then only religion when like superstition are held on a mass scale.
So then the belief that a broken mirror causes 7 years of bad luck classifies as a religion?
I have another thing a religion needs: an answer to life's big questions: How did we get here, what happens when we die, why is the world the way it is.
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(07-Dec-2011 at 06:23)


Yes, I know that you are appealing to the Unabomber as an authority, but leaving aside the credibility of a guy who thought blowing people up was cool, and leaving aside that he had some obsession with becoming some kind of noble savage at one with nature, he is plain and simply wrong.

His first mistake is equating 'not natural' with having less autonomy. This doesn't stand up: choosing not to scrape a living as a subsistence farmer does not mean that I am a) incapable of it or b) that my choices and hence autonomy are reduced.

His second is then to equate this imagined loss of autonomy with a loss of power, which is so wrong it is almost a joke.

To take your car example - how exactly does the ability to drive *reduce* my power and relevance? If anything, it extends it by making it practical for me to travel to places, and meet people, that would otherwise not be worth the effort. Without Unabomers evil machines, we would not be having this conversation.

"Patriotism is the last refuge of a scoundrel." But let it be considered that he did not mean a real and generous love of our country, but that pretended patriotism which so many, in all ages and countries, have made a cloak of self- interest.
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(07-Dec-2011 at 06:34)


Quote:
So then the belief that a broken mirror causes 7 years of bad luck classifies as a religion?
If you genuinely believe it to be true, yes it does. Especially as the origin of that belief lies in religion. You know the story of people who believe that when there photograph is taken it captures a part of their soul? The same thing is true in many primitive religions for reflections - they contain part of the soul. Shatter the reflection, and you shatter the persons soul.

The seven years part comes from the problems faced by servants who broke their masters mirror. Glass, until relatively recently, was very expensive and mirrors where backed with silver. Breaking one would take a servant years - maybe seven of them - to pay off.

"Patriotism is the last refuge of a scoundrel." But let it be considered that he did not mean a real and generous love of our country, but that pretended patriotism which so many, in all ages and countries, have made a cloak of self- interest.
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(07-Dec-2011 at 07:03)
Re: A new religion...

Originally Posted by B1ackAurora: View Post
So it's really not -total- dependence, thus the machines don't wield -total- power.
Not totally, no, not yet. But there is a positive relationship, yes?

Quote:
So then the belief that a broken mirror causes 7 years of bad luck classifies as a religion?
I have another thing a religion needs: an answer to life's big questions: How did we get here, what happens when we die, why is the world the way it is.
Yes, I just gave you the chain of being: Superstition -> Cult -> Religion.

[...]

Originally Posted by Voice of Reason: View Post
Yes, I know that you are appealing to the Unabomber as an authority, but leaving aside the credibility of a guy who thought blowing people up was cool, and leaving aside that he had some obsession with becoming some kind of noble savage at one with nature
The snake show doesn't start until 5. Put that viper away.

Quote:
His first mistake is equating 'not natural' with having less autonomy. This doesn't stand up: choosing not to scrape a living as a subsistence farmer does not mean that I am a) incapable of it or b) that my choices and hence autonomy are reduced.
Yes, it exactly does. Aristotle: "We are what we repeatly do".

Quote:
To take your car example
The car was originally your example.

Quote:
- how exactly does the ability to drive *reduce* my power and relevance?
Because that job or action has been deligated to a machine. Your mechanical input is no longer required to complete this journey. You are literally powerless therefore largely irrelevant (besides the relatively miniscule effort required to steer) to completion of this journey.

Quote:
If anything, it extends it by making it practical for me to travel to places, and meet people, that would otherwise not be worth the effort.
Distance is relative. What you mean by 'practical' is therefore relative.

Quote:
Without Unabomers evil machines, we would not be having this conversation
That's the nature of assymetric warfare; using the box within the box to destroy the boxes.

Last edited by Gotterdammerung, 07-Dec-2011 at 07:04.
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(07-Dec-2011 at 08:08)


Quote:
The snake show doesn't start until 5. Put that viper away.
What viper? I am stating facts. In case you are unaware, Kacynski really did live in a log cabin in the wilderness, with neither electricity nor running water, honing his survival skills in an attempt to become totally self-sufficient. When development started damaging 'his' wilderness, he was so pissed off that he started killing people with his bombing campaign. Not the most stable of individuals...


Quote:
Yes, it exactly does. Aristotle: "We are what we repeatly do".
Let me give you the whole quote:

"Virtue is a quality won by training and habituation. We do not act rightly because we have virtue or excellence, but we rather have those because we have acted rightly. We are what we repeatedly do. Virtue, then, is not an act but a habit."

In common use, they often use 'excellence' instead of 'virtue'. I guess 'excellence' fits in with the marketing/business/self-improvement/motivational types who like this quote

Now, where in there do you get the idea that Aristotle thought that technology reduced autonomy? Quite the opposite - he is saying that that virtue (or excellence) is something achieved *through autonomous human actions*.


Quote:
Because that job or action has been deligated to a machine. Your mechanical input is no longer required to complete this journey. You are literally powerless therefore largely irrelevant (besides the relatively miniscule effort required to steer) to completion of this journey.
The car is not going to make that journey by itself. It is not going to attend a function or a meeting in my place. It is me that chooses where to go, when to go, what route to take. The car is a tool controlled by me. How does that make me powerless or irrelevant to the journey?


Quote:
Distance is relative. What you mean by 'practical' is therefore relative.
Exactly. What is a long, impractical journey on foot is quite easy and practical in a car, and a quick lunch-time visit in a helicopter. So how do the car and the helicopter make us less powerful?

"Patriotism is the last refuge of a scoundrel." But let it be considered that he did not mean a real and generous love of our country, but that pretended patriotism which so many, in all ages and countries, have made a cloak of self- interest.
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(08-Dec-2011 at 03:24)
Re: A new religion...

Originally Posted by Voice of Reason: View Post
What viper? I am stating facts. In case you are unaware, Kacynski really did live in a log cabin in the wilderness, with neither electricity nor running water, honing his survival skills in an attempt to become totally self-sufficient. When development started damaging 'his' wilderness, he was so pissed off that he started killing people with his bombing campaign. Not the most stable of individuals...
Not the most docile of individuals.

But what does all this have to do with the substance of what someone says? That's Ad Hominem. You well know this Mr. Linguist.

Quote:
Now, where in there do you get the idea that Aristotle thought that technology reduced autonomy?
I didn't. I merely used the wisdom of Aristotle to riposte your assumption that just because you arn't a farmer doesn't mean you can't be one. The fact is that you ARN'T one, you simply don't live this way, therefore there is no way that you could possibily know that self-sufficiency brings a lot of virtues which surburia lacks. Namely, being empowered.

Quote:
Quite the opposite - he is saying that that virtue (or excellence) is something achieved *through autonomous human actions*
Well, I know that Aristotle bumped heads on this particular point, seen through his dislike for Diogenes of Sinope. I think Diogenes has a better understanding of Freedom than Aristotle did.

None the less, the above point still holds. I don't think Diogenes would dispute that habit is truer that action.

Quote:
The car is not going to make that journey by itself. It is not going to attend a function or a meeting in my place. It is me that chooses where to go, when to go, what route to take. The car is a tool controlled by me. How does that make me powerless or irrelevant to the journey?
You have other 'tools' that you use to organize functions and meetings for you, and to choose which route for you should take. You see?

Anyway, you're right, the car is not going to make the journey by itself, but 99.99% of the work is done by the car. That's all I wanted tot say. Bit by bit you can apply this pattern to other machines in your life, and the increasing turnover of power of the individual - you - to 'them'.

Quote:
Exactly. What is a long, impractical journey on foot is quite easy and practical in a car, and a quick lunch-time visit in a helicopter. So how do the car and the helicopter make us less powerful?
You seem to think that the distance travelled matters. It's beside the point. In the end, all you do is sit down and wait for a machine to do the work for you. That's the principal I'm setting here.

Last edited by Gotterdammerung, 08-Dec-2011 at 03:26.
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