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(Posted as AshnodFREEJACO)
Posts: 459/1096
(28-May-2003 at 04:01)
Parting Thoughts- Anti-alliances, Alliances and a final thought...

Right, well then, I've got a few parting thoughts to deliver before I take a break from UT and maybe Utopia for awhile- just don't tell me kingdom. They'd probably kill me if they knew I was thinking of taking a break.

Anti-alliances: Possibly the biggest joke in Utopia today. During the age of the YYA, they were worth something. Now, with Hawk, they're getting a worse and worse reputation. Yet again anti-alliance members are characterized as people like Lord Hawk and not the likes of Nikos or Tengu (not that I like either, but I do respect both). Instead, those willing to embrace hypocrasy become the standard bearers. Hawk will continue to talk the talk, but he'll never walk the walk. And those who follow in his footsteps will suffer the same fate of ridicule. To many anti-alliance people in Utopia will choose to focus on the negative aspects of alliances, while being content to blind themselves to the positive aspects of alliances. And as long as people are willing to walk with blinders on, they'll see only one half of the coin.

Oh, and Hawkie, you suck. If I could, I'd remove the "Slayer of Jaco NH" from your sig and probably change your name to something nasty. And yes, that's the extent of my flaming.

Alliances: Once people start realizing that alliances are more about the people than protection (the good ones, that is- I won't tell you which one I'm in, but it's in a good one, for the people, of course), they might begin to appreciate alliances a little more. Once people stop seeing the 3MFs and Jaco's trash talking as being all alliances are, things might improve. So it is up to the alliance reps left on this board to try to show that side of alliances, the side you and I know is the most frequent side, and not the negative things people will point to. You've lost Jaco, and it's a shame, because people did listen to him. Maybe Lady G can take his place- minus the trash talking, that is.

My final thought is this: It's a game, people. It started as a game. Stop taking it so seriously. Kick back, relax, make friends. That's what Utopia is about.

I know my words count for bunk, but indulge me. Bring the humor back to AD!

Show me the FUNNY!
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(28-May-2003 at 05:16)


Quote:
Alliances: Once people start realizing that alliances are more about the people than protection (the good ones, that is- I won't tell you which one I'm in, but it's in a good one, for the people, of course), they might begin to appreciate alliances a little more.
I like that one, I have met many people in my Alliance, and I have made many friends. We haves meetings, get some beers, have fun, talk like we have known eachother always.

It is nice to have some commitment.

----------
I have a Tivoli Tshirt <3 <3 <3 <3
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(28-May-2003 at 07:25)
Re: Parting Thoughts- Anti-alliances, Alliances and a final thought...

Quote:
(Originally posted by AshnodFREEJACO)

Alliances: Once people start realizing that alliances are more about the people than protection (the good ones, that is- I won't tell you which one I'm in, but it's in a good one, for the people, of course), they might begin to appreciate alliances a little more. Once people stop seeing the 3MFs and Jaco's trash talking as being all alliances are, things might improve. So it is up to the alliance reps left on this board to try to show that side of alliances, the side you and I know is the most frequent side, and not the negative things people will point to. You've lost Jaco, and it's a shame, because people did listen to him. Maybe Lady G can take his place- minus the trash talking, that is.

My final thought is this: It's a game, people. It started as a game. Stop taking it so seriously. Kick back, relax, make friends. That's what Utopia is about.

I know my words count for bunk, but indulge me. Bring the humor back to AD!

Show me the FUNNY!
Ok, Ashnod, since you mentioned me, I'll reply to this (and I know who will hop on it immediately!!!!!!).

I really don't think that it's possible to show the good side of alliances here in UT. The only thing that makes a splash in here is the bad stuff, and then everyone jumps in to see who can out-do the other with what they perceive to have happened 12 ages ago. Basically, this area is only for flaming. We all do it, right? I know I'm guilty of it. Nice, reasonable posts usaually go un-noticed but start flaming, and BLAMMO! the thread takes off. Most of us that are "regulars" here from alliances jump in to defend each other based on our knowledge and experiences with the alliance in question, and usually get ignored, or we aren't taken seriously because we are in an alliance, and as we all know [sarcasm] all alliances ever do is GB [/sarcasm].

Yes, the threads that were deleted had a lot of people laughing. It was light-hearted and not taken seriously by almost all of us. Every time I popped in here, there were a ton of people in AD, more-so than usual lately. Alliances that have usually argued & spatted here with each other had members all agreeing, laughing, posting, etc. It would be nice if we were allowed a bit more freedom and fun here, but, the limits are probably a bit hard to set. Brother Green does know how some of us feel, he does listen, but he's so busy and more problems keep cropping up lately, and he's trying to get Angel done, too.

Anyway, I'm wandering off my point here, as usual. This area, well, it's not here for alliances to be seen in a good light. For far too long, it has been the area to bash alliances. This was helped along by certain anti-alliance people who use this public area as their arena to fight alliances. Most of those people do not use in-game actions, they instead use words here to put alliances down. I don't see that changing anytime soon. It doesn't matter if it is Jaco, or me (I trash-talk a lot, btw), or anyone else who is trying to defend an alliance here against those words. No matter what we say, or what proofs we post contrary to the complaint, there will always be those who will hop into it just to bash all alliances. That leaves those of us here who do know the "good sides" of the alliances arguing back, and the "good sides" get overlooked again. I know from personal experience with SoS, that we try to let our actions in-game speak for our alliance. I think other alliances do, too, but as I said, only the 'bad things' come out in here most of the time.

I'm really tired tonight, so excuse my ramblings. I guess what I'm trying to say is that this won't ever be a friendly area here. It's always going to border on hostile. It doesn't matter who speaks out saying otherwise... it's 'us vs. them' 98% of the time.

I'm not making much sense I'd like to know why you're thinking of taking a break, but then we wander off-topic and that's not allowed. Anyway, please don't nominate me to be a spokesperson for the good of alliances. I'm not a good one, believe me. I have a temper

Disclaimer: I'm totally exhausted, I have no idea what I was trying to say above. Excuse my ramblings.

Hawky, the floor is yours!

Lady G
Overall Leader of SoS

"Friends are quiet angels who lift us to our feet when our wings have trouble remembering how to fly."

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(28-May-2003 at 07:36)
*saws a circle in the floor under where Hawky (nice name hahaha) is standing and Laughs when Lord Hawk falls through the stage*

well, now that i have the spotlight all alone... *grins* i think its the change in this game, or rather the lack of change but still a mixture of evolution that makes this game playable. If there was one alliance that dominated all how fun would that be? if everyone wanted to be IN an allaince who would the bad allainces pick on? if all allainces were good how would allaince wars start? its the mixture of those opposeing and gathering for and against allainces, it is the sprouting of good and bad leaders mixed with good and bad days at work, it is all these things that make this game fun and special. So i don't really see any reason to debate the topic but at the same time the topic will ALWAYS be debated so it too is part of the game :+)
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(Posted as Vraak UTM X)
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(28-May-2003 at 07:39)


Quote:
(Originally posted by Lady G)

Ok, Ashnod, since you mentioned me, I'll reply to this (and I know who will hop on it immediately!!!!!!).

I really don't think that it's possible to show the good side of alliances here in UT.
It's possible, just difficult.

Quote:
The only thing that makes a splash in here is the bad stuff, and then everyone jumps in to see who can out-do the other with what they perceive to have happened 12 ages ago.
Well, with the stance and the arguments Lord Hawk is using, it's quite arguable that people are getting turned OFF from Anti-Alliance.

Quote:
Basically, this area is only for flaming. We all do it, right? I know I'm guilty of it. Nice, reasonable posts usaually go un-noticed but start flaming, and BLAMMO! the thread takes off. Most of us that are "regulars" here from alliances jump in to defend each other based on our knowledge and experiences with the alliance in question, and usually get ignored, or we aren't taken seriously because we are in an alliance, and as we all know [sarcasm] all alliances ever do is GB [/sarcasm].
Oh yes, Lady G. I know how that works.

"Alliances are the big bad wolf!"

I think Anti-Alliances are the most gullible form of an organization I have ever seen. (Except for older anti-alliance organizations, like YYA). Lord Hawk is just maneuvering this anti-alliance organization into a bastion of his own power.

Quote:
Yes, the threads that were deleted had a lot of people laughing. It was light-hearted and not taken seriously by almost all of us. Every time I popped in here, there were a ton of people in AD, more-so than usual lately. Alliances that have usually argued & spatted here with each other had members all agreeing, laughing, posting, etc. It would be nice if we were allowed a bit more freedom and fun here, but, the limits are probably a bit hard to set. Brother Green does know how some of us feel, he does listen, but he's so busy and more problems keep cropping up lately, and he's trying to get Angel done, too.
I respect Brother Green for what he does, and don't usually pester him about much. As for myself, let me give you a little historical backdrop: I've played Utopia for all the ages there are (yes, 20 inclusive) and for fifteen ages have I survived without alliances. I've dealt with them, yes, but never entered one. The anti-alliance has no need of existence. They claim that it's nearly impossible to survive against the big-bad menacing alliances, yet I did it for fifteen ages, seven of those ages as monarch. So tell me how this was possible?

Quote:
Anyway, I'm wandering off my point here, as usual. This area, well, it's not here for alliances to be seen in a good light. For far too long, it has been the area to bash alliances. This was helped along by certain anti-alliance people who use this public area as their arena to fight alliances. Most of those people do not use in-game actions, they instead use words here to put alliances down. I don't see that changing anytime soon. It doesn't matter if it is Jaco, or me (I trash-talk a lot, btw), or anyone else who is trying to defend an alliance here against those words.
Lady G, you can't stop a bully from beating up a little kid just like you can't stop anti-alliance ranters from ranting on uselessly the same points over and over again. I respected Jaco, even though he did have the ego that stretched from the Halls of Montezuma to the Shores of Tripoli.

Quote:
No matter what we say, or what proofs we post contrary to the complaint, there will always be those who will hop into it just to bash all alliances. That leaves those of us here who do know the "good sides" of the alliances arguing back, and the "good sides" get overlooked again. I know from personal experience with SoS, that we try to let our actions in-game speak for our alliance. I think other alliances do, too, but as I said, only the 'bad things' come out in here most of the time.
Alliances have allowed me to further flex my diplomatic muscle, and for this, I am very grateful. For those of you who say that alliances do not have positive sides, just look at me. A minor success story. And please don't give me that bullcrap of an excuse that alliances are big bad menacing bullies who fake their policies, because they're not. Anti-alliance folks who form up together to take military action against alliances are just those who cannot take alliances down on their own. I had to survive all those ages on my own -- no help except my kingdom and a few contacts I later lost on ICQ. Why can't you do the same? Oh wow, one gangbang. I've taken my share of gangbangs. I've been obliterated once. So? I bit my lip and moved on. Unlike some anti-alliance people who just moan, groan and try to find every excuse to dog alliances.

Quote:
I'm really tired tonight, so excuse my ramblings. I guess what I'm trying to say is that this won't ever be a friendly area here. It's always going to border on hostile. It doesn't matter who speaks out saying otherwise... it's 'us vs. them' 98% of the time.
It will only be friendly when one side is eliminated.

Quote:
I'm not making much sense I'd like to know why you're thinking of taking a break, but then we wander off-topic and that's not allowed. Anyway, please don't nominate me to be a spokesperson for the good of alliances. I'm not a good one, believe me. I have a temper

Disclaimer: I'm totally exhausted, I have no idea what I was trying to say above. Excuse my ramblings.

Hawky, the floor is yours!
Double Disclaimer: I'm only following Lady G.

Signature suspended by SM Tengu for violating the forum's rules. [Non-English rule]
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(28-May-2003 at 07:41)


Unfortunately Lady G, its the case whereever you go, people always mention the bad points, never the good.. When was the last time you (not necessarily you Lady G, but people in general) thanked the chef for an excellent meal? What about when you received a poor meal and blew up at the waiter/waitress?

Its a fact of life, people acknowledge the bad, not the good.. See it here on both sides.. Moderator and Normal user a like.

But as Ashnod said, do try and fight this tide of negativity.. I am sure it would make this place a better place to visit. I have an idea or 2 myself, but dont see it happening.. Would have no idea on going about it.

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(Posted as Vraak UTM X)
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(28-May-2003 at 07:41)


I'd also like to add that I only mean militant anti-alliance members, not those who ideologically debate like normal, sensible people like Brother Naz or Runey [sarcasm] (oh god, Runey = Sensible? What's the world coming to) [/sarcasm]

I also agree with Runey. Let's try to clean up AD. The bigger man would always step down from the discussion (or woman, in Lady G's case)

And Runey, on a side note, I tip the waitress or the chef whenever there's good service, I tip them about 30-40 percent more extra.

Signature suspended by SM Tengu for violating the forum's rules. [Non-English rule]

Last edited by Majestic Vraak, 28-May-2003 at 07:42.
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(Posted as KAEROMHUFFA KLA)
Posts: 161/1633
(28-May-2003 at 07:42)


Very nice post/thread Ashnod.

I really enjoyed what you have posted here I agree with most of it except YYA

The thing to remember is the more experianced alliance and non alliance players dont really post here due too the n00b content/flameing.


I'll admitte Im a flamer ..... I just can't stand people that are blinkered o_O


But instead of kicking off another flame war with the idiot/s I'll just say thanx very good post.

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(Posted as QQ NI)
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(28-May-2003 at 07:58)


Oh, but your kingdom knows now, Ashnod Well, at least I do..

--
Ex Head of Nex Imperio Diplomatic Corps
Ex Principal of Nex Imperio Academy
Ex Bitch & Rant Whole Night Long©
Don't judge a thing till you know what's inside
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(28-May-2003 at 08:05)
I'm sorry, I don't really pay attention to utopia forums outside my own KD, but this topic caught my eye.

I just have one single question for those "anti-alliance" groups out there. If you are anti-alliance, how can you form a military alliance to defend against those "evil alliances"? To put the same question the other way, how can you form a military alliance and still call yourselves "anti-alliance"? In formalizing it, you have destroyed it.

I personally don't care either way about alliances. I have been in an alliance in the past, but didn't find it particularly usefull. I can play just as well without another kingdom's help. Heck, I can play pretty well without MY OWN kingdom's help. You people just need to learn to play is all.

Just cause you pick a bad target and get yourself gb'd doesn't mean you didn't deserve it, and it doesn't mean it isn't a valid option for retaliation. You need to learn from your mistakes, and use a little better strategy next time. I rarely get gb'd at all btw, because I pick my targets well. I am not the greatest player out there, but I do have lots of fun, and that is the most important part.

In closing, I just want to say to all the "anti-alliance" folks, and heck, even those in an "alliance", YOU are the only one who can allow someone else to ruin your game. If you don't let them get to you (i.e. drop it and move on, and maybe learn something), then they can't ruin your game. If you want to really have some fun, you should try playing the game a bit, instead of getting pissed off in all these alliance debates (unless that is your cup of tea, of course). Relax a bit, have some fun. Don't worry about the losers out there (on all sides).

Oh and feel free to flame me all you want, as I will not be allowing this to hamper my enjoyment in any way, so it can only hamper yours.
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(28-May-2003 at 08:07)
Quote:
(Originally posted by DarkSkies X)

Unfortunately Lady G, its the case whereever you go, people always mention the bad points, never the good.. When was the last time you (not necessarily you Lady G, but people in general) thanked the chef for an excellent meal? What about when you received a poor meal and blew up at the waiter/waitress?

Its a fact of life, people acknowledge the bad, not the good.. See it here on both sides.. Moderator and Normal user a like.

But as Ashnod said, do try and fight this tide of negativity.. I am sure it would make this place a better place to visit. I have an idea or 2 myself, but dont see it happening.. Would have no idea on going about it.
You know what I would like to see more of here, Runey. You're part of it, aren't you? You're anti-alliance and you don't do that stuff, you just blend in and make conversations go pretty nicely here. I'm just not up to saying what I'd like to see, I repeated it before. Anyway, what are your ideas?

BTW: I don't blow up at waitresses, I've been one a couple of times.

Quote:
(Originally posted by Vraak UTM X)

I also agree with Runey. Let's try to clean up AD. The bigger man would always step down from the discussion (or woman, in Lady G's case)
Umm, let's start with someone else, lol. I can't shut up. I even talk in my sleep

Lady G
Overall Leader of SoS

"Friends are quiet angels who lift us to our feet when our wings have trouble remembering how to fly."

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(28-May-2003 at 08:30)
ok, some valid points here, some rants.
It seems to me that alliances are as guilty of lumping anti-alliances together as the opposition is.
If all alliances were just social conventions where people get together, have a laugh and enjoy meeting new people I seriously doubt anyone would have a problem.
Yes a lot of negativity does come out in these forums - but I can see that from both sides.
The anti-alliance communtiy consists of a great variety of people. Not all of us wish to vanquish alliances in the field.
For myself I see little point. If I walk into BF declare war on all alliances and survive (!) all I would have achieved is two things. A player has lost their province and possibly a place in game with their KD(however temporarily) and also Ive shown that I am guilty of all that is bad with alliances.
When it comes right down to it I am quite confidant that the wiser players on both sides are moving towards the same goal.

Quote:
Once people start realizing that alliances are more about the people than protection (the good ones, that is- I won't tell you which one I'm in, but it's in a good one, for the people, of course), they might begin to appreciate alliances a little more.
I know anti-alliance people who want community-style groups as well.
However

Quote:
Once people stop seeing the 3MFs and Jaco's trash talking as being all alliances are, things might improve
so long as negative elements are there this will not end.
Perhaps its time for both groups to look hard at themselves, clean up their backyards and perhaps they will see they have more in common than they realise...
Just so long as everyone remembers that not everyone wants to be in a group larger than their KD.

Chance Favours the Prepared Mind
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(28-May-2003 at 08:31)
Bigjeff, you have hit the nail SMACK on the head! Everything you said EXACTALLY how it is!

Ego alone created alliances.... and 'anti-alliances'. Maybe it's because they wanted to lead but weren't elected monarch.. or just wanted have a whole lot of people under them, or maybe holding them up. Any way I look at it though it seems to be a whole lot of ego floating around. And the FANATISISM so many people show! It's outrageous how seriously some of these people take having their views disagreed with or someone getting the better of them in-game!

I think I would like how you play, BigJeff, and I would love to war your kingdom sometime if your willing! Nothing like playing with true sportspeople!

Vapor
Freelance mercenary/anarchist
And doesn't cheat
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(28-May-2003 at 08:39)
sorry BigJeff, I must've missed your post.
I am anti alliance (on the whole).
I have not formed a military alliance.
I do not promote anti-alliance sentiment in game.
Lets face it if you (either side) wish to do some real damage we all know you create a group you know is the direct opposite to your cause, yiou fill it with people who are, to be blunt, psychotic. You wind em up until they are ready to explode then you complain that your enemy (anti-alliance or alliance) is the scum of the earth and thats why you are here!
Seriously, if anyone goes this far you:
a. really should get out more
b. forgetting the core utopian rule. ITS A GAME!

Chance Favours the Prepared Mind
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(28-May-2003 at 10:23)


Re: Parting Thoughts- Anti-alliances, Alliances and a final thought...

Oh, ashnod, sorry to see you go. we haven't even gotten to know each other well.

i stayed out of hawk's thread pretty much, except to tell him to rename his alliance. His Anti-Aliance (AA) looks the same as Apocalypse Alliance (AA). i sort of succeeded by having him change to AAG - that's Anti-Aliance Guild, with the word Aliance misspelled. (i'm not the world's greatest speller, but i won't misspell the name of my alliance)

everyone, don't tell him about this error as he might change the name again!!! and this time, i don't want him to change it

Quote:
(Originally posted by AshnodFREEJACO)
So it is up to the alliance reps left on this board to try to show that side of alliances, the side you and I know is the most frequent side, and not the negative things people will point to.
in truth, i don't much care what people outside of alliances think. they have their reasons. i'll let them be. maybe if you guys read the 3,600++ flaming speeches (spams deleted) on the AA (that's Apocalypse Alliance) thread, then you'd have a tougher stomach. sure helped me been there, swallowed that, threw up in between.

hawk needs to gain more muscle and experience if he wants to stay on his untenable track. but that's his choice. i'm not going to lead him away from a path of blissful self-destruction.

in short, ashnod, it's fun in here. don't let it get to you take a couple of days off then come back.
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(Posted as Feydakin BoD)
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(28-May-2003 at 13:51)


Good luck with staying away Ashnod, I know I haven't been able to do it :/

I'm like many here, I've played this game through just about every age, even when is was BRE on the BBS I used to run back in the dark ages of history.. And guess what, we had 'alliances' back then too.. They weren't as organized, but certainly were effective..

I've played in 4 or 5 alliances over the ages.. And the only thing that keeps me in them is the friends I have in them.. I enjoy the building, the training, the helping aspect of alliances.. I get bored easily, and once my kingdom was trained and a real quality kingdom (congrats on getting requited into MYTH BTW) I was bored.. The alliance gives me a place where I can help.. Otherwise I would have quit this game a very long time ago.. Kingdom level poilitcs and diplomacy are simply too easy..

I've done my part to guide any group I've been involved with toward a more enlightened approach.. Those I couldn't change, I left.. Those that can be changed I continue to support.. The bad alliances rarely last long anyway.. People mature and realize that being "bad" is boring.. It's the honorable alliances that last.. (with a few exceptions)..

I have never been involved in ruining someone's age.. But I have been involved in saving them..

As for alliances being allowed in Utopia, if Mehul were to say that alliances are illegal, and absolutely against the rules, I'd quit tomorrow.. Of course, I'd also quit Utopia, but that's beside the point..

For you anti-alliance folk, for evry evil you claim done by alliances, I can point to the exact same thing, done on a larger scale, by non-alliance provinces/kingdoms.. So, I still fial to see how your argument holds any water at all..

Where was I?? My Some-Timers is settling in in my old age... Oh yeah, ego and alliances.. Yes, most alliances are led by people with big egos.. Guess what, all leaders in all walks of life have big egos, it's the nature of leadership.. Hell, I have one of the largest egos you'll ever see, I freely admit it.. But, you will also find that nearly every single one of these "leaders" will sacrifice everything they have for their members, their alliance, and their kingdom.. And will always put themselves last in that list.. It's the nature of things..

For those of you who are anti-ego, I can only assume you have yet to spend much time in the real world.. Leadership without ego is rare.. Leadership without sacrifice is souless.. You will see that our egos come to the fore when we are defending our people.. It is our number one goal, protect and serve.. It's a real shame that you simply can't see that..

This sword here at my side doesn’t act the way it should : It keeps calling me it’s master, but I feel like it’s slave
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(Posted as greeney)
Posts: 236/3643
(28-May-2003 at 23:40)


Quote:
(Originally posted by DarkSkies X)

Unfortunately Lady G, its the case whereever you go, people always mention the bad points, never the good.. When was the last time you (not necessarily you Lady G, but people in general) thanked the chef for an excellent meal? What about when you received a poor meal and blew up at the waiter/waitress?

Its a fact of life, people acknowledge the bad, not the good.. See it here on both sides.. Moderator and Normal user a like.
a lot of people including myself always say thank you and rarely blow up in someone's face

that was a pretty bad example runey...sorry

If all else fails, call someone a troll.
that can be fixed... / Æ
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(29-May-2003 at 00:19)


Quote:
(Originally posted by Bigjeff)

I just have one single question for those "anti-alliance" groups out there. If you are anti-alliance, how can you form a military alliance to defend against those "evil alliances"? To put the same question the other way, how can you form a military alliance and still call yourselves "anti-alliance"? In formalizing it, you have destroyed it.
Not all do as you say. In point of fact, there's a loose coalition of "brains" operating on a number of out-of-game projects designed to attack the source of the problem - the issues cited both as the reasons for alliances existing and as the problems they cause. I myself I suppose would qualify as "anti" alliance, although I choose to decline direct association with the more militant members of the crowd and my attitudes are that alliances do serve a purpose. My answer? Forget dealing with them directly - might as well try to stop the planet from rotating - attack the source issues. So try not to lump us all in the same category, eh?

I rule you - you rule me
Everyone rules somebody
It's a grand conspiracy -
The Illuminati Polka!
Tom Smith, "Iluminati Polka"
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