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Posts: 7343/8194
(19-Feb-2008 at 16:08)
Re: Make Me A Muslim

Originally Posted by Armitage: View Post
Bernel: a short reply only for now. I want others to answer my 3 questions before i post again (which you havent, unfortunatley, but maybe you'll answer them eventually).
If you want more explicit answers, I pass on the first question since I'm neither a Christian or a Jew. The second, yes, it is immoral for this "we" (God or the Islamic community?) to claim it will take care of any unwanted children when it clearly doesn't. For your third question your rules doesn't cover more than a fraction of life, there is plenty of room to do a lot of evil while following those rules. For example, while it is clearly wrong to steal from an orphan, what about stealing from other people?
Quote:
Quran: has absolute orders (yes, treating your parents is absolute)
So what do you do if your parents beat and abuse you? Accept it as the normal order of things?
#21  
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Posts: 401/742
(19-Feb-2008 at 16:50)


Re: Make Me A Muslim

Originally Posted by Armitage: View Post
[*]So whats the pure essence of Christianity and Judaism?
Pure essence is a difficult term, especially when it comes to religions. If you mean what lies at the basis of these religions, i would say the religious experience. If you mean the ideal-form practice of these religions, then as Syke said, the essence is a universal moral code.

Quote:
[*]Is there anything immoral in these verses i posted above?

"Say: 'come let me recite to you what your Lord Has forbade for you:
that you should not set-up anything with Him.
And be kind to your parents;
and do not kill your unborn children for fear of poverty, We provide for you and for them;
and do not come near evil, what is openly of it, or secretly;
and do not kill the soul which GOD Has forbidden, except in justice. That is what He enjoined you that you may comprehend'.
'And do not come near the money of the orphan, except for what is best, until he reached his maturity;
and give honestly full measure and weight equitably. We do not burden a soul except by what it can bear.
And if you speak then be just even if against a relative;
and with pledges made to GOD you shall observe. This He Has enjoined you that you may remember'.
And this is *My path, a Straight One, so you shall follow it, and do not follow the other paths lest they divert you from His path. That is what He has enjoined you to that you may be righteous." (6:151-153)
I agree with practically all these prescripts, they express good sentiments. Just through reason and love for my fellow man i already hold myself to moral standards that are more strict and more encompassing than these though; they're very basic (Be good, be kind, don't kill, be just, etc). Put it this way, and at the risk of sounding pretentious, I feel I choose to be a better man, than many a believer's God decrees him. The sole thing i would say is wrong, or immoral, about the passage, is therefore "do not follow the other paths lest they divert you from His path". Any real religion, i feel, should encourage a believer to analyze and experience all paths, because only after doing so could you honestly choose what is truly the best path. There's no compulsion in religion right, then let there be no subtle compulsion either.

Quote:
[*]If you follow these commandments would you describe the person as a rightous person?
No. Living by them would be a decent start, but would not nearly be enough to make a man righteous in my opinion. Morality is not just living by rules handed to you by your chosen authority, that's just phase one. More important is deciding to restrict yourself in those things where your own desire may end up hurting others.

Your brain is unique in the history of the universe. Use it wisely.

Last edited by Dusk Illz, 19-Feb-2008 at 16:53.
Edit reason: quote tags
#22  
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Posts: 421/611
(02-Mar-2008 at 22:53)


Originally Posted by Skye:
If you asked adherents of the Christian faith, they would inform you undoubtedly that Christianity when practiced in its pure form is perfect as well.
  • So whats the pure essence of Christianity and Judaism?
The pure essense or form of Christianity and Judaism is the belief in One God, strict Monotheism. As the Quran states:

They say: "Become Jews or Christians if ye would be guided (To salvation)." Say thou [Muhammad]: "Nay! (I would rather) the Religion of Abraham the True, and he joined not gods with God." [2:235]


  • Is there anything immoral in these verses i posted above?
DHoffryn: not enough informations from the verse to judge a person.
Bernel: (the "We" is the Majesty form for "God" in semitic languages). Has difficulties with the part where God states that He would care for all people. Actually doubting the Omnipotence of God.


  • If you follow these commandments would you describe the person as a rightous person?
Dusk Illz: thinks these are basic commandments are just good for a start.
Bernel: rules are not comprehensiv enough.

My answer is if you are able to follow these rules, you belong to the best of people if you also believe in the Oneness of God and in the prophethood of Muhammad (pbuh). I say it, you are the best of the people on this earth if you are able to understand the underlying difficulties which comes along with these rules.

As Bernel said it and from your own experience, being polite to the parents can be extremely difficult because parents dont behave as they should and too often supress the rights of their children. Yet, God says to be polite to them. Why does He?
Bernel, you are mysterious to me (you do understand that humans have been able to live in almost every corner of this world and in some places they could even live in abundance? The fact that humans or children die due to malnutrituion is due to the "human" system of distribution of good. Not because God has made us live in a world which is not capable to nuture all people. Thomas Malthus if he would have read the Qur'an and believed in it, would have known that his theory would be a failure). The immorality you see in the commandment (not kill you childred for fear of poverty) i cannot. Arabs used to bury their female babies for fear of poverty. Is this a reason to kill your children? Do you think you have the moral authority to determine the life of a child over the life of a newborn child? If you cannot feed both children and they die, then it was the fate of the child to die as an infant. God has determined the timepoint of death for every living being. By killing someone you take a right which belongs to God. God takes and gives life. Overcomming fear of this kind is a most difficult task and i wonder if you, Dusk Illz have mastered it. You state these commandments are a good start but they are more than most people can handle.

God says you should avoid evil. Thats easy in public. Often people seem to be of the best of humans but they turn out to become hypocrites because they associate with what is bad when they are alone or in secret. The urge to do a bad deed is stronger when you are alone or are aware that you wont be sanctioned. Is this commandment really that easy what God is asking?

The commandment of not embezzling the money of orphans is a general one. How many Ceo's have violated this rule? The destruction of the negligence of this rule is grave. The blood, the property and the honor of a human being is sacrosant. The prophet (pbuh) when he came back from a caravan journey to Mecca didnt went to home to wash the dirt of his face before he did not hand over the property which was entrusted to him. 99,9% of the people would have went home after a long and dangerous journey, rested, eat and slept a bit and then proceeded to settle the bills. Not so the prophet (pbuh) since he was the shining light of humanity.

No my friends, walking the straight path is not an easy one and its not a start. You can only walk this path when you have a firm grounding in your faith and have a understanding of this world. Its difficult but if you try God is the Merciful, He helps those who honestly strive to find Him and the reward of being rightous in the eyes of God is Paradise, eternal bliss and God's benevolence.

[Holy Qur'an (Surah Al-Furqan; the Criterion]
Blessed is He who sent down the criterion to His servant, that it may be an admonition to all creatures (25:1)
But the misbelievers say: "Naught is this but a lie which he has forged [...] (25:4)

Last edited by Armitage, 02-Mar-2008 at 23:00.
#23  
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Posts: 206/213
(21-Mar-2008 at 00:30)
Quote:
and do not kill your unborn children for fear of poverty, We provide for you and for them;
If only millions of muslim africans read that quote from the koran, islam numbers would diminish incredibly and do this world a favour.

To be fair, ridding the world of all religion would do it a big favour also. However it is in our nature as humans to find other means to destroy our lives.

So what to do

~Albert Einstein~
A man's ethical behavior should be based effectually on sympathy, education, and social ties; no religious basis is necessary. Man would indeed be in a poor way if he had to be restrained by fear of punishment and hope of reward after death.
#24  
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Posts: 959/1637
(27-Mar-2008 at 14:15)
Re: Make Me A Muslim

Originally Posted by H3ctor: View Post
If only millions of muslim africans read that quote from the koran, islam numbers would diminish incredibly and do this world a favour.

To be fair, ridding the world of all religion would do it a big favour also. However it is in our nature as humans to find other means to destroy our lives.

So what to do
"...to destroy", as you put it, stems from the assumption that our lives are relatively static. Which is, I think, from a practical perspective, far from realistic.

Decline is but another essential part of the whole. There should be nothing inherently repulsive about it. Unless, that is, you grasp to fantasy world.

What good, then, would come from ridding the world of religion? It's bound to fail. So, "what to do", you ask? Well, quite simply: whatever you feel willed to do!
#25  
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Posts: 207/213
(28-Mar-2008 at 18:37)
Well at least my grasp of a fantasy world doesn't involve, blowing myself up killing innocents trying to get my point across bureaucrats, sacrificial rituals, declaring a jihad, crusade against my distant neighbours, burning "witches" ... need i say more

~Albert Einstein~
A man's ethical behavior should be based effectually on sympathy, education, and social ties; no religious basis is necessary. Man would indeed be in a poor way if he had to be restrained by fear of punishment and hope of reward after death.
#26  
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Posts: 422/611
(28-Mar-2008 at 23:17)


So whats your interest for this specific islamic thread? Are you in the urge to warn all those folks of yours of the dangers of islam? Is your name possibly Geert Wilders?

Now dont go off-topic anymore in this thread please. I hope the mods will warn this guy.

[Holy Qur'an (Surah Al-Furqan; the Criterion]
Blessed is He who sent down the criterion to His servant, that it may be an admonition to all creatures (25:1)
But the misbelievers say: "Naught is this but a lie which he has forged [...] (25:4)
#27  
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Posts: 960/1637
(31-Mar-2008 at 02:59)
Re: Make Me A Muslim

Originally Posted by H3ctor: View Post
Well at least my grasp of a fantasy world doesn't involve, blowing myself up killing innocents trying to get my point across bureaucrats, sacrificial rituals, declaring a jihad, crusade against my distant neighbours, burning "witches" ... need i say more
I'm getting really annoyed how you and others like you keep pumping out a humanist presumption on things, that we must save the world and we must create the greatest good for the greatest number. It's just assumed to be the case.

What is inherently bad about blowing up 'innocents'? No one is innocent. Ever. The idea of being innocent means being detached from the situation of choice. But first you have to prove the abstract part of our minds which is said to have total dominion over the rest of oursevles. No, this is not possible. Then we have to determine that loss of human life is a bad thing, is it? Does 'badness' indeed exist?

Walk we through all of this, then maybe we can have a chat about wayward religions.
#28  
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Posts: 2310/2341
(02-Apr-2008 at 19:08)


Ok, for starters.

- Any set of moral/ethical codes would have had the same effect.
- Those people wanted to change, otherwise they wouldnt have done the show.

Now, just to point out that Islam isnt perfectly accurate as you seem to claim. Which tbh, I could do merely by pointing out there clearly sections of the muslim community who have mis understood it to the point of believing it suggests all non muslims should be hit with planes, but I'll actually take your own examples.

Quote:
and do not kill the soul which GOD Has forbidden, except in justice.
Justice is somewhat obsure. If someone steals my wallet, and I want justice.... I can kill him? What about if he slept with my wife.

And what about if his going to attack me. Now, he'd have to actually attack me before I can seek justice... at which point i'm dead. So I cant actually defend myself.

All religions are misleading, and generally lead to fatal confusion. It happened with Christians, when groups they thought the bible said they have to destroy the middle east and rule Jeruslam killing every "saracen" they found in the middle ages.

And now theres muslims sects who are very similar in thier thoughts... if not nearly half as picky over who they should be killing.

http://thiscrazyworld-flair.blogspot.com/ - Not a lame blog, a comedy outlook on topical issues.
#29  
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Posts: 433/611
(04-Apr-2008 at 23:59)


Flair i have answered your first statement of subsitution of moral codes already in a previous post.

Islam and Muslims are not equal. Islam's Source, the Quran is perfect, Muslims as humans are imperfect. Islam is also easy and simple to understand, the misunderstandings you point out to are not misunderstandings but the deliberate ignoring of what is mutual consent of scholars of Islam. Flying planes into buildings is not what Islam teaches and im certain in my belief that it was done by non-muslims in an attempt to blame it to muslims. Even those, who you call extremists, the Taliban have given the US the opportunity to show evidence and if so, they would have put OBL in a criminal charge and punished him according to the guilt, if he was truely guilty. But we know, the US has been unable to produce evidence except for some obscure tapes years later.

Whats obscure about Justice? If you are unsure about something, there is a saying of the prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) which goes somewhat as, a person is not a believer until he keeps away from what is questionable. And if you have doubts, go ask someone with knowledge. If you are in a emergency situation, try to act according to your knowledge and put your soul into Gods hands. Self-defence is allowed in Islam, outward Jihad is all about self-defence.

Also there is a proportionality of punishment. If someone steals from you and is guilty, then he might loose his hand with which he harmed you. This might be harsh but the blood, property and honor of humans is sacred after all. On another note, one point about islamic law is exceptional that is that its the victims who have the last saying. They can forgive culprit from punishment. So someone punished to death can be forgiven. In the West, people often dont feel as if justice was served but thats another topic. I thought many people might not know this about islamic law, thus pointed it out.

Quote:
All religions are misleading, and generally lead to fatal confusion.
What is confusion. Its when you cannot find answers to situations or questions you have. You have to find your answers. You also might struggle yourself through the wisdom, religion offers. And if religion cant backup its verses in life experience, its inevitably going to lead to even more confusion if you hold to that religion, but giving up on all religions just because one religion offers no satisfying answers, will that relieve ones confusion? Rather no. But thats the case for so many atheits. Christianity disappointed them, therefore all religions are worthless. How irrational.

peace

[Holy Qur'an (Surah Al-Furqan; the Criterion]
Blessed is He who sent down the criterion to His servant, that it may be an admonition to all creatures (25:1)
But the misbelievers say: "Naught is this but a lie which he has forged [...] (25:4)
#30  
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Posts: 178/189
(28-May-2008 at 23:17)


in the US?

I would like to see what would happen if they tried that in the US.



and just my 2 cents....

the best guidance for relating to humankind and God...

luke 10:27

"Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind; and thy neighbour as thyself."
-Jesus Christ


you can't force love, or it isn't love!
#31  
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Posts: 453/611
(05-Jun-2008 at 12:29)


What would happen then?

Chal do you love God with all your heart? I tell you that if you try to live by that verse you will become frustrated soon for its not possible to love God with all your heart, thats impossible to achieve so in fact, every christian who tries to live by that standard will become frustrated. For Man loves other things.

Fair in the eyes of men is the love [hubb] of things they covet: Women and sons; heaped-up hoards of gold and silver; horses branded (for blood and excellence); and (wealth of) cattle and well-tilled land. Such are the possessions of this world's life; but in nearness to Allah is the best of the goals (to return to).[Qur'an 3:14]

In Quran God doesnt commands to love Him. Ironically, and it suprises me you dont saw it yourself when you wrote your comment, you say "you can't force love, or it isn't love!" while your Bible verse states a direct binding command "Thou shalt love the Lord thy God [...]" the people. So whats your stance now?

A good (tho critical site to islam) site to love and God in Quran, here.

So far and as always, peace to everyone, even if they may not like it that i wish them peace.

[Holy Qur'an (Surah Al-Furqan; the Criterion]
Blessed is He who sent down the criterion to His servant, that it may be an admonition to all creatures (25:1)
But the misbelievers say: "Naught is this but a lie which he has forged [...] (25:4)
#32  
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