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Posts: 958/1035
(07-May-2008 at 15:34)
Re: Professor: Atheists are more intelligent than believers

Originally Posted by Dusk Illz: View Post

-Intelligent children are less likely to end up smoking as adults.
-Intelligent children are more likely to end up vegetarian in adulthood.
-Intelligent children are less likely to be obese in adulthood.
-Intelligent children are likely to end up living longer than less intelligent ones.
-Intelligent children are more likely to be healthy throughout adulthood.
-Intelligent children are more likely to be rich in adulthood.
-Intelligent children are less likely to have a lot of children in adulthood.
This depends on what you are comparing. If you compare one group of people say a class of harvard students you cant say without a doubt that the ones with higher intellegens will be more successful in life than the ones with lower.

But if you compare highschool dropouts and this class than of course you can say that because the Harvard students on average are more intellegent they will succeed better in life as well.

Social skills, popularity, attractiveness, personality,parents is also important for success in real life and grades are not directly proportional to a persons income.
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(07-May-2008 at 17:36)
Re: Professor: Atheists are more intelligent than believers

Originally Posted by Caelis666: View Post
And why is he a racist? Because he concluded from research that white people are on average slightly more intelligent then black people? It's quite pathetic how people fail to realise what academic honesty means. It would have been really bad if he had done this research and decided not to publish because the results were not politically correct.

So unless you have any real evidence that this guy is a racist (pictures of him in a white hooded cloak would suffice), I'm calling bullshit.
If you knew me in Rl you would know that I do not approve of politically correctness (?) just for the sake of it...but as you dont I hope you will just take my word for it

The problme with this guy is that his research has been flawed in many instances. If you read the wiki link i provided you can see that his work has been exmanined, a report found no fraud from Nyborg's side, but at the same time it does not examine the methodology he uses.
Point of my post(s) is that I would never consider one professor's (especially not one who has been examined for doing bad research) research as any kind of evidence for this kind of topic.

I would happily accpet athesists are more intelligent than belivers if there was sufficent evidence of it.
#42  
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(07-May-2008 at 19:28)
Most religious people that I have met don't think critically at all. They never had an image of god, heaven, or anything like that.

Infact most religious people that I meet don't want to think.. which is possible.
People just don't like to think.

I actually told this religious person an idea that I had of heaven and they called it sac religious.

I would imagine atheist were a little bit more intellegent... because you have to analiyze the concept before you disbelieve it.

This only includes some ahteist though because I know people who just stopped faith in god because a parent died.

What gets me with religious people, especially most christians or catholics.. is they are afraid of technology and get too caught up with revelations... everything is the mark of the beast now days.

Any kinda science that I bring up that doesn't cross with religion is always compared to god.

Physics, chemistry, psychology, biology, evironmental science and ect.

Everyone frickin brings up god and how we are not aloud to think about that kinda stuff because of god.

The people I deal with consider those topics "outside the box". When its really inside the box.

Like I was talking about functionalism and structuralism and these guys had the nerve to bring up god.

God... is like a completley diffrent subject all together..

any of you guys have this problem?
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(07-May-2008 at 20:12)


Re: Professor: Atheists are more intelligent than believers

Originally Posted by Oluf: View Post
If you knew me in Rl you would know that I do not approve of politically correctness (?) just for the sake of it...but as you dont I hope you will just take my word for it

The problme with this guy is that his research has been flawed in many instances. If you read the wiki link i provided you can see that his work has been exmanined, a report found no fraud from Nyborg's side, but at the same time it does not examine the methodology he uses.
Point of my post(s) is that I would never consider one professor's (especially not one who has been examined for doing bad research) research as any kind of evidence for this kind of topic.

I would happily accpet athesists are more intelligent than belivers if there was sufficent evidence of it.
Uhm, it's now somehow his fault that people did not examine his methodology or that there are no other studies on the same subject?

To me it's quite simple. There's one study with a certain result, while there are no studies with opposing results and no flaws have been found in the research. That gives me reason to believe this study until contrary evidence is provided.

Modern world I'm not pleased to meet you

You just bring me down
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(07-May-2008 at 21:18)
Re: Professor: Atheists are more intelligent than believers

Originally Posted by Caelis666: View Post
Uhm, it's now somehow his fault that people did not examine his methodology or that there are no other studies on the same subject?

To me it's quite simple. There's one study with a certain result, while there are no studies with opposing results and no flaws have been found in the research. That gives me reason to believe this study until contrary evidence is provided.
The study itself im sure is correctly done. What I question is what he studied.
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(08-May-2008 at 00:54)


simple
at the low end.
idiots cant concieve unique idea, so most accept the norm, god.
at the high end geniuses can concieve many ways a godless existand could be. some take athism. they get the CHOICE less inteligent people dont get. some EVEN though they can concive a completely viable discription of reality WITHOUT a god..accept god.

THIS may be a more interesting point??

"Atheists are more intelligent than believers" if this is the title of his thesis this professor is a non-religeso fantic. However if its "Inteligent people are more likely to be an Atheist then a beliver" maybe not.

Cause and effect, look it up.
I think the proffessor comment makes the point quite well.

if our labourers party is called Labour, the most conserivtive party are called Conserivitives, and the liberal party called the Liberal Domocrats why aren't the BNP called the English Racist Party.
#46  
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(08-May-2008 at 02:16)


Re: Professor: Atheists are more intelligent than believers

Originally Posted by marli: View Post
simple
at the low end.
idiots cant concieve unique idea, so most accept the norm, god.
at the high end geniuses can concieve many ways a godless existand could be. some take athism. they get the CHOICE less inteligent people dont get. some EVEN though they can concive a completely viable discription of reality WITHOUT a god..accept god.

THIS may be a more interesting point??

"Atheists are more intelligent than believers" if this is the title of his thesis this professor is a non-religeso fantic. However if its "Inteligent people are more likely to be an Atheist then a beliver" maybe not.

Cause and effect, look it up.
I think the proffessor comment makes the point quite well.
Intelligent atheists will understand how easy and juvenile it would be for me to pick on this post. Hopefully they ALSO understand how much wisdom and couth I'm demonstrating by just letting your post stand as it is, as a demonstration that atheists and their defenders on average aren't demonstrably more intelligent than others.

However, I can't totally demonize the group for attempting to claim superiority based on a single anecdotal post. I demonize atheists for allowing one questionable surveyor to claim intellectual superiority and failing to oppose him.

Again, even if on average atheists are more intelligent, this thread demonstrates that they lack in so many other areas to translate that intelligence that over time, their hubris is the overriding net negative.

In other words, if groupthink allows you to even just claim superiority, you demonstrate the lack of it. That in and of itself should be a humble enough concept for atheists to get their collective minds around. If it's not, then God help you.

Furthermore, I really don't understand why atheists like Bernie are so hostile towards me.

Yes, I despise atheist fanatics who claim intellectual superiority just as much as I despise religious fanatics that claim moral superiority.

My comments are generally meant to be constructive to both: you're not better than anyone because of the way you think or feel, no more than ayrians or blacks are based on the color of their skin.

Any show or study claiming atheists as 'smarter' than others is counterproductive.

Man is the only animal that blushes, or needs to.-- Mark Twain

Last edited by Michael1, 08-May-2008 at 02:25.
#47  
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(08-May-2008 at 06:00)
Quote:
Furthermore, I really don't understand why atheists like Bernie are so hostile towards me.
Well, it might have something to do with your way with words...
Quote:
Intelligence can be a real downer when it turns out you were wrong all along. Can you imagine being an atheist all your life and dying, only to find out there is indeed an afterlife and creator? It sure would make me feel pretty stupid, but that's why I'm a devout agnostic.
Meh. I agree with a lot of what you say anyway. I find both groups of people pretty annoying - those who need to spend their lives proving that they are better than another person (or group of people) really need to start living their own lives rather than criticising others lives...
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(08-May-2008 at 08:03)


Re: Professor: Atheists are more intelligent than believers

Originally Posted by Michael1: View Post
Any show or study claiming atheists as 'smarter' than others is counterproductive.
Academic freedom is a great good. Calling studies 'counterproductive' interferes with that freedom and is therefor imo counterproductive.

Besides, no intellectual superiority can be claimed on the basis of statistics because there's no causal connection. That's why the analogy with white people calling blacks inferior doesn't fly.

Modern world I'm not pleased to meet you

You just bring me down

Last edited by Caelis666, 08-May-2008 at 08:05.
#49  
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(08-May-2008 at 09:08)
Re: Professor: Atheists are more intelligent than believers

Originally Posted by Michael1: View Post
Intelligent atheists will understand how easy and juvenile it would be for me to pick on this post. Hopefully they ALSO understand how much wisdom and couth I'm demonstrating by just letting your post stand as it is, as a demonstration that atheists and their defenders on average aren't demonstrably more intelligent than others.
It's a well tested rhetoric trick to claim that you are not going to attack the previous speaker, and in the very act of doing so you tell him what a fool he is. In boasting about your own wisdom and couth you also show a strong lack of humility, something you accuse atheists of. At least I don't claim to be more humble than others.
Quote:
I demonize atheists for allowing one questionable surveyor to claim intellectual superiority and failing to oppose him.
Whether or not you oppose him should depend on whether or not you think his study is correct, but you seem to think one should oppose it out of principle even if it is true. It's all about statistics anyway, not about any individual being superior. If you want to know if a person have higher IQ, make him take an intelligence test, don't ask him whether or not he believes in God. I would also recommend that you stop demonizing groups based on their faith, or in this case, lack of faith.
Quote:
Furthermore, I really don't understand why atheists like Bernie are so hostile towards me.
Shouldn't that be "Furthermore, I really don't understand why wacky science geek intellectuals like Bernie are so hostile towards me?
Quote:
Yes, I despise atheist fanatics who claim intellectual superiority just as much as I despise religious fanatics that claim moral superiority.
As if it is better with agnostic fanatics claiming superiority
Quote:
My comments are generally meant to be constructive to both: you're not better than anyone because of the way you think or feel, no more than ayrians or blacks are based on the color of their skin.
Who said anything about being better? Your analogy also suck as much this time as last time you used it. Skin color is something you are born with, religion is something you choose, and thus the latter will say a lot more about who you are as a person.
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(Posted as Celtic19)
Posts: 275/410
(08-May-2008 at 12:24)


Quote:
Shouldn't that be "Furthermore, I really don't understand why wacky science geek intellectuals like Bernie are so hostile towards me?
You forgot to put aethists in there.

And you have yet to reply to my message M1

Just because aethists dont oppose visibly (ie by coming here and posting that it is all all wrong) you are assuming that they all collectively agree with it.

Again....I will point out your lack of wisdom or humbleness in this thread which you keep glorifying as the perfect right-wing nut-job
#51  
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(08-May-2008 at 15:38)


Re: Professor: Atheists are more intelligent than believers

Originally Posted by Caelis666: View Post
Academic freedom is a great good. Calling studies 'counterproductive' interferes with that freedom and is therefor imo counterproductive.
Oh, the guy has every right to do his study ... putting it to use as a propaganda tool on the other hand ... that's counterproductive. It tends to remind everyone of all the reasons why some atheists completely annoy the hell out of the rest of us.

Originally Posted by Bernel:
It's a well tested rhetoric trick to claim that you are not going to attack the previous speaker, and in the very act of doing so you tell him what a fool he is.
It is, however I didn't do that. I don't believe I directly addressed any of the foolish things in the post I quoted.

Quote:
At least I don't claim to be more humble than others.
For obvious reasons. So you're not more humble and you feel that because you're an atheist you're intellectually superior. Anything else you care to share with the class?

Quote:
Whether or not you oppose him should depend on whether or not you think his study is correct, but you seem to think one should oppose it out of principle even if it is true. It's all about statistics anyway, not about any individual being superior.
No, it's not. I could care less about his study is correct. It may well be. What is fucking stupid is throwing this study around. Doing so solidifies what most of us already think about those 'agenda atheists' we already dislike for their haughtiness.

Quote:
I would also recommend that you stop demonizing groups based on their faith, or in this case, lack of faith.
I have no problem with atheists who aren't smug about throwing studies around that claim their intellectual superiority. I have no issue with them because of their lack of faith, I have an issue with their hubris.

Quote:
As if it is better with agnostic fanatics claiming superiority
Who knows. I don't see any doing so.

Quote:
Who said anything about being better? Your analogy also suck as much this time as last time you used it. Skin color is something you are born with, religion is something you choose, and thus the latter will say a lot more about who you are as a person.
The analogy is just fine. In fact claiming intellectual superiority as a group because of the choices you make regarding your faith (or lack thereof) is perhaps worse because at least racists can claim ignorance.

Originally Posted by Celtic19:
And who says the average atheist looks down on others for their lack of intellect?
Then why this thread, and why no condemnation of those who do indeed claim intellectual superiority.

Quote:
Nice of you to look down on the on the average atheist based on the actions of a few 'intelligent' morons.
Any atheist has an opportunity to change my opinion but none are showing up in this thread interested in doing so.

Man is the only animal that blushes, or needs to.-- Mark Twain
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(08-May-2008 at 19:51)


Quote:
My disgust in a religious person claiming to be morally superior equals my disgust for atheists claiming to be intellectually superior.
And yet this is not reflectd in your posts. You quite often target atheists specificly while you very rarely mention christians or any other religion so you could probably see why is it easy to assume that you simply have some grudge

Quote:
Who knows. I don't see any doing so
Well you do come off a bit arrogant at times


Quote:
Any atheist has an opportunity to change my opinion but none are showing up in this thread interested in doing so.
Well you see Michael the thing is that a big part of normal everyday atheists are not like the teen atheists you see on the web. They are not obsesed with religion. They don't believe and they don't really give a crap about religion or labels one way or another. So 1)they wouldn't bother with a religous forum 2) they won't go out of their way to cater to your wishes and defend some athetist cause or image that they don't care about

The very powerful and the very stupid have one thing in common; they don't alter their views to fit the facts, they alter the facts to fit the views
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(08-May-2008 at 20:32)


Re: Professor: Atheists are more intelligent than believers

Originally Posted by Caelis666: View Post
And why is he a racist? Because he concluded from research that white people are on average slightly more intelligent then black people? It's quite pathetic how people fail to realise what academic honesty means. It would have been really bad if he had done this research and decided not to publish because the results were not politically correct.

So unless you have any real evidence that this guy is a racist (pictures of him in a white hooded cloak would suffice), I'm calling bullshit.
Why would anyone do such a research on who is more intelligent, black or white people? What was his motive? Academic naivity? I tend to believe his is a racists although now im interested in reading the study. Can anyone provide me with a link to the study please?

[Holy Qur'an (Surah Al-Furqan; the Criterion]
Blessed is He who sent down the criterion to His servant, that it may be an admonition to all creatures (25:1)
But the misbelievers say: "Naught is this but a lie which he has forged [...] (25:4)
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(08-May-2008 at 21:29)


Re: Professor: Atheists are more intelligent than believers

Quote:
Oh, the guy has every right to do his study ... putting it to use as a propaganda tool on the other hand ... that's counterproductive. It tends to remind everyone of all the reasons why some atheists completely annoy the hell out of the rest of us.
Who says he's using it as a propaganda tool?

Originally Posted by Armitage: View Post
Why would anyone do such a research on who is more intelligent, black or white people? What was his motive? Academic naivity? I tend to believe his is a racists although now im interested in reading the study. Can anyone provide me with a link to the study please?
Why not? It's an interesting subject. And there's no way that he could have known the result before doing the study, so for all he knew it could have turned out that black people are more intelligent.

Man, I hate it when I have to defend science against such nonsense objections.

Modern world I'm not pleased to meet you

You just bring me down
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(08-May-2008 at 21:59)


Re: Professor: Atheists are more intelligent than believers

Originally Posted by Caelis666: View Post
Why not? It's an interesting subject. And there's no way that he could have known the result before doing the study, so for all he knew it could have turned out that black people are more intelligent.

Man, I hate it when I have to defend science against such nonsense objections.
You think it is interesting? I think its stupid to do such a research if you are interested in social well being. At the end, and no matter what the result is, you have a group of people that is dumber than the other. Is that worth the "curiosity" of one man? I say it isnt. But isnt that typical for the West and its values, to see who is the "best, the strongest, the most intelligent, the most beautiful"?

peace

[Holy Qur'an (Surah Al-Furqan; the Criterion]
Blessed is He who sent down the criterion to His servant, that it may be an admonition to all creatures (25:1)
But the misbelievers say: "Naught is this but a lie which he has forged [...] (25:4)
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(08-May-2008 at 22:32)
Re: Professor: Atheists are more intelligent than believers

Originally Posted by Armitage: View Post
Why would anyone do such a research on who is more intelligent, black or white people?
Yes, it is pretty stupid. "white people" are a genetically reasonably well defined group, but since Africans have the largest genetic variations, as is natural since we evolved there, lumping them all together into one group will give meaningless results. Another strange thing is that in the abstract (but perhaps not in the paper itself) of a paper claiming that men are more intelligent than women he mentions the difference in brain size, but not the difference in body size, which is odd because larger people have larger brains without therefore being more intelligent.

Considering that "nature vs nurture" is a very old topic making this kind of study isn't strange, but there are all kind of pitfalls on how to correct for cultural differences. It is so extremely easy to skew result. One amusing experiment involved telling a class of children the people with blue eyes were more intelligent and then letting them do a test, and lo and behold, those with blue eyes turned out to get better score. The next day the teacher claimed that he had misread the article, those with blue eyes were actually less intelligent, and a new test proved that result too! Expectations have a lot more influence than you might believe.
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(09-May-2008 at 02:40)


Re: Professor: Atheists are more intelligent than believers

Originally Posted by Bernel: View Post
Yes, it is pretty stupid. "white people" are a genetically reasonably well defined group
This exemplifies your narrow Euro-centricism. While it's true that even in the US a half-black can be seen as an African-American, we are 'browning' in ways European countries such as yours cannot accept as the future norm. Don't tell me I'm wrong. I'm one of them, lived in Florida, and know better.

Quote:
The next day the teacher claimed that he had misread the article, those with blue eyes were actually less intelligent, and a new test proved that result too! Expectations have a lot more influence than you might believe.
So I will now claim atheists are less intelligent than others and you will, or have, demonstrated that to be true????

If that's the case, what's the point of this thread / boast?

Man is the only animal that blushes, or needs to.-- Mark Twain
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(Posted as matinog)
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(09-May-2008 at 04:54)


If he does a study of blacks and whites in a city, what else can it show but how the system fails to educate equally? is that harmful in any way?
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(09-May-2008 at 05:32)


I think I got this from this forum. I think it adds to this discussion. It also agrees with the statement made at the beginning of this thread.

Mars II - American Scientist
PhD - Physical Chemistry
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