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(Posted as Exonerate)
Posts: 91/142
(29-Mar-2003 at 02:02)


Why the existence of God cannot be disproven

I was looking on the Proving God thread, and saw a large amount of people asking why we don't disprove God's existence. The simple answer is "We can't"

In order to disprove the existence of a God, you must prove he does not exist anywhere, and quite frankly, that is a large amount of space to cover. Even if it were possible to check every nook and cranny in space, you would still have to monitor it at the same time.
God supposedly refuses to make himself known. Since he is also supposedly omnipotent (Which goes against logic, but that's another story), meaning he can hide himself, and even if we could observe every place at the same time, people would just say that God is God, and he is hiding himself with that unlimited power of his.

Lastly, the burden of proof is on those who do believe in a God. They are making a claim that something exists, something that cannot be observed. The default position is ignorance. By default, I do not believe in God. Therefore, you must back up your claim that God exists with evidence.

Hope that cleared things up. I'm just tired of people saying "You can't disprove God, so he must exist!", and I know if I posted in that thread, nobody would read it.
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(Posted as Hurley BD)
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(29-Mar-2003 at 05:18)


If he refuses to make himself known, why was he so active in the bible? Like 2000 years ago and before. Now all of a sudden he isnt anywhere. No prophets, angels, floods, burning bushes, virgin mothers, no viable proof that anyting in the bible is true. I believe that since there is no proof of the existence of god, that is all the proof we need that he doesnt exist.

Life is a test and I get bad marks.
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(User is Banned)
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(29-Mar-2003 at 05:49)


........

I agree with Exonerate. And, we cant prove he exsists and we cant prove he doesnt, so what DO we do?

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(Posted as Exonerate)
Posts: 93/142
(29-Mar-2003 at 08:30)


You could probably "prove" he exists, but you'd need a HELL LOT of evidence...
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(29-Mar-2003 at 09:40)


I wouldn't necesarily go so far as to saying that because there's no proof that a god exists, that there is no god. Basically, that operates under the assumption that no proof will ever be found, and I think that's dangerous to assume. I mean, back in the middle ages, there wasn't any proof that one could harness the power of lightning (or electricity as we now know it). And look where we are today.

That all said, I do agree that the burden of proof does lie within the believers, if they decide to take it upon themselves to try and prove the existance of a god.

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(29-Mar-2003 at 19:25)


This is why the age-old arguement of Atheists vs Religious stiil exists. No side can prove/disprove god's existence.
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(29-Mar-2003 at 23:37)


:)

Quote:
(Originally posted by blind io)

This is why the age-old arguement of Atheists vs Religious stiil exists. No side can prove/disprove god's existence.
yet there is a powershift :P Compare today's number of atheists with the numbers 200 years ago, 100 years ago, 50 years ago

Common sense is spreading throughout the western world! We start asking critical questions to powerful organizations like the Church and some governments.

Btw my aunt said that Al-Jazeera is blocked from american television?

I dont even have to make a point if that is true
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(Posted as Belnick HaJ)
Posts: 402/1695
(30-Mar-2003 at 02:24)


*I wrote the bible to whip the ppl in line*

there is no god, it is just something a lazy bum invented when he had nothing to do, wrote a damn book and a religion were created heheheheh :

Within darkness comes enlightenment.
There is no god, there is no Devil, there is no heaven or Hell
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(Posted as Lord Drizzt)
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(30-Mar-2003 at 03:05)


God isn't confined within the limits of this universe. So therefore you'd have to do some serious searching beyond this universe, beyond dimensions and beyond minds in order to find God.

Why is he so active in the bible? What do you mean? The biggest "miracles" that happened in the bible were raising the dead or putting some plaque over some area. Now would those events be significant worldwide? No. God raises people from the dead today, but none of you know about it because you never hear about it.

s o u l f i r e
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(Posted as Elan Morin)
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(30-Mar-2003 at 03:22)


It is true that God can not be disproven. However, it is very possible to show how unlikely God's exsistense is. Not through evidence, but through logical arguments, and more importantly, counter-arguments.

Argument (ex.): "If the Universe is so complex and ordered, then it is unlikely that the Universe just was. Its just not logical. Just look around outside, look at the ..(blah blah blah).. and the Earth is just perfect to support life!"

Counter-Argument A: "The Universe is not ordered. It is random. And out of 10*10^1,000,000,000+ worlds, it is likely that the Earth would form in at least one."

Counter-Argument B: "If the Universe is complex, its creator would have to be even more complex. So, assuming that God always just was is just like assuming the Universe always was, but even less likely."

In other words, all though we can not disprove his exsistense, we can show open-minded persons who has the most "proof."
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(30-Mar-2003 at 09:43)


First, I'm pretty sure that if God raised people from the dead today, we'd hear about it. It's not something that happens every day, you know.

Anyways, Elan, I tend to agree with you, that logic would seem to favor there not being a god. To me though, and you might have accounted for this but I didn't notice it, is that I think I'd have a broader defenition for what a god would be. You seemed to imply that a god necesarily created this universe. I'd simply say that a god is a higher being than us. Which I would best describe as comparing us to, say, dogs. And of course, while we're higher up on the chain than dogs, we've still got plenty of flaws.

So by that defenition, I'd say that it'd be hard to be able to lay a rational argument down either for or against the existance of such beings. Another analogy - when our footsteps kill ants, I don't think the nearby ants realize that it is a live being that caused that. To them, it'd probably seem more like a force of nature.

In the beginning, the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and has been widely regarded as a bad move.
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(30-Mar-2003 at 10:25)
Re: :)

Quote:
(Originally posted by Peppie)
Common sense is spreading throughout the western world! We start asking critical questions to powerful organizations like the Church and some governments.
Well no, it is secularisation thats spreading. The separation of religious-,social-,economic- and political-life. This sepparation of spheres that is so widespread and far progressed in the "western" world while not so at all in many other parts of the world is a major source of missunderstanding and failed "development projects".

Wether the secularisation is a good or a bad thing depends on the society. Just as the form of the religion best suited depends on the local circumstances. For instance the Muslim/Jew probition against pork wouldnt work very well in the melanesian/polynesian islands, why? becouse most of their diet and social/religious/economic/political life depends on pigs (not in the modernized parts obviously). While pigs thrive in that part of the world they are hardly suited for the arid areas in the middle-east, add that to the fact that the metabolism of the pig is similar to that of humans and its all rather self explanatory.
Im digressing majorly here, point was religion vs no-religion depends on the place and the time, just as religion x vs religion y does.
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(Posted as Lord Drizzt)
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(30-Mar-2003 at 12:18)


Quote:
(Originally posted by Erik64)
First, I'm pretty sure that if God raised people from the dead today, we'd hear about it. It's not something that happens every day, you know.
If you're willing to hear some testimonies people have, you'd hear some stuff about rising again from the dead. I've heard 3 stories about people in this recent world that has come back to life (met one of them)

s o u l f i r e
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(30-Mar-2003 at 12:47)


Quote:
(Originally posted by Lord Drizzt)

If you're willing to hear some testimonies people have, you'd hear some stuff about rising again from the dead. I've heard 3 stories about people in this recent world that has come back to life (met one of them)
Please be more specific.. I hope you dont mean, for example, risen from the grave :P

And if its clinically dead, then revived, this is semi-common. Medical unexplainable miracles happen, but deaths happen way more..

Also, what connects a miracle with a divine intervention?

Ah well, i guess those testimonies could be interpreted to divine stuff, but still i say: be sceptical!
#14  
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(30-Mar-2003 at 13:03)


Quote:
(Originally posted by Lord Drizzt)

If you're willing to hear some testimonies people have, you'd hear some stuff about rising again from the dead. I've heard 3 stories about people in this recent world that has come back to life (met one of them)
yeah it happens, we saw a video of that in Africa, Nigeria if I'm not wrong, this guy died and his body was brought to an outreach event cos the wife was so distraught, the ppl there didn't think there was anything they could do and placed the body in the basement, but the evangelist there (can't remember the name, but he was nigerian too) heard about it, went down there and prayed, the fella was raised...

there was another case a few years back in Indonesia...

and just cos it happens doesn't mean you'd hear about it, most of the mass media is just as skeptical as you are, probably with reason, but they wouldn't report these things, it DOES happen though...

will ask my parents for the exact names, especially of the pastor involved, if anyone is interested

-Part of the UT Christian Community
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(Posted as Exonerate)
Posts: 95/142
(30-Mar-2003 at 20:19)


And can you show correlation between these supposed miracles and God? For all you know, it would be Odin sending them back or something.
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(30-Mar-2003 at 21:02)


which means there has to be a devine being out there... God.

anywayz, y would christians try to prove God exists? we know he exist cause we have faith. religion requires a lot of faith in God and in other people. If someone proved the existence of God, it wouldn't be a religion anymore, it would be a fact. I don't have to prove anything to anyone, for I know there is a God. I wont say I "believe" or "think" there is a God. Thats reluctance and it is a sign of weakening faith.

Since you are the person who wishes evidence, perhaps you should try to prove it

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(30-Mar-2003 at 22:04)


So wait, correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm getting the impression that you're saying faith is good enough. Faith, used in the context of belief, meaning no rational evidence to support it.

If that's good enough for you, well then, I can't complain. Your beliefs, and all. But I would have to say that it's strange juxtaposing that idea next to the argument that atheists should prove their side.

In the beginning, the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and has been widely regarded as a bad move.
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(Posted as Exonerate)
Posts: 96/142
(31-Mar-2003 at 00:34)


Quote:
(Originally posted by Dilbert)

which means there has to be a devine being out there... God.

anywayz, y would christians try to prove God exists? we know he exist cause we have faith. religion requires a lot of faith in God and in other people. If someone proved the existence of God, it wouldn't be a religion anymore, it would be a fact. I don't have to prove anything to anyone, for I know there is a God. I wont say I "believe" or "think" there is a God. Thats reluctance and it is a sign of weakening faith.

Since you are the person who wishes evidence, perhaps you should try to prove it
Excuse me, I do not believe in God. If you wish to prove God's existence, that would be your duty, not mine. You're basically saying "We have lots of faith (Lack of Evidence), and we don't have to prove anything." Not that you could anyways, seeing how most are failing miserably.
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(12-Apr-2003 at 09:58)
Quote:
(Originally posted by Erik64)

So wait, correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm getting the impression that you're saying faith is good enough. Faith, used in the context of belief, meaning no rational evidence to support it.

If that's good enough for you, well then, I can't complain. Your beliefs, and all. But I would have to say that it's strange juxtaposing that idea next to the argument that atheists should prove their side.
Faith is the essence of life, when you really think about it. Especially for the Atheists. If you were to think critically about the decision to believe that there is no good you will realize that you also have faith. To have faith in something is easier to have faith that something doesn't exist. In order to prove something doesn't exist once must show that that thing doesn't exist anywhere at any time and thus it is proven.

Therefore it takes more faith for an Atheist to believe there is no God because they are believing that nowhere in the vast cosmos there exists a God whereas a person believing in God is having faith in something that can be (depending on their belief) extremely small and minute. So when discussing faith it cuts both ways.


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#20  
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