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Posts: 1/575
(12-Mar-2004 at 09:58)


Israel

Please write here your opinions of Israel and Israeli policy.

Thank you.
#1  
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(12-Mar-2004 at 21:07)
Re: Israel

Quote:
(Originally posted by nazarab)

Please write here your opinions of Israel and Israeli policy.

Thank you.
lets not start another Israel-discussion thread, eh? they are all over the place. if u want to know what people think, check in the old forums. all this will get us is repeated arguments.

It's just like starting a new thread asking wat people think of the U.S. policy. they are everywhere here and in polls, so if ur that curious just scrounge through the forums. put in "Israel" and it'll search for every forum that mentions it.
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(12-Mar-2004 at 22:48)


Re: Israel

Quote:
(Originally posted by nazarab)

Please write here your opinions of Israel and Israeli policy.

Thank you.
You probably want people to say "Israel sucks" and feel good about yourself. But no one will do the hard job for you. If you gave anything to say about Israel, just say it.

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#3  
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(13-Mar-2004 at 10:54)


They are doing what they need to in order to protect there people, i dont agree with it but i completely understand it. They are in the middle of hostile area where they feel that they are not welcomed therefore they have to protect themselves with miltary might

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#4  
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(13-Mar-2004 at 11:47)
Israel is the last (I hope) example of old fashioned European colonialism. Some oppressed Christian minorities went off to America, removing the natives to build a "new" country for themselves, the Jews went off to Israel to do the same. South Africa, Australia, Rhodesia, it's happened in many places.
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(13-Mar-2004 at 14:02)


What Bernel says is very much the case here. I know Sharon agreed on pulling back some of the settlements, but I allso saw in a Documentary that some of the Settlers claimed they would never leave, from their "promised land".

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(13-Mar-2004 at 14:13)


Finish the wall, seal off the border, get a grip and defeat terrorism.

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(13-Mar-2004 at 16:19)


bernel demonstrating his excelent grip on realisty, how about you study both history and current affairs before talking about them!

nimon don't base much of your opinions on a documentary, remember they are made with a purpose, what a couple of settlers? there are some people who want to remove all government in the united states doesn't make them representitive of the population or anything serious to listen to.

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(13-Mar-2004 at 16:38)


It's not all based on a documentary. This has also been the case on the news several times, and I would hardly call our news reports biased towards anything.

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(13-Mar-2004 at 16:46)


Quote:
(Originally posted by Nimon)

It's not all based on a documentary. This has also been the case on the news several times, and I would hardly call our news reports biased towards anything.
you stated documentary and i am sure your news is biased one way, ive never seen 100% impartial news before. and as i stated earlier what are the voews of a couple of people who have no real significance, they have some importance but are not the be all and end all.

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(13-Mar-2004 at 17:49)


Quote:
(Originally posted by BlackAurora)

Finish the wall, seal off the border, get a grip and defeat terrorism.
You are right, the wall will hopefully keep Israelis out of Palestine, and stop their terrorism as well.

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(13-Mar-2004 at 18:01)


Quote:
(Originally posted by Bernel) Israel is the last (I hope) example of old fashioned European colonialism. Some oppressed Christian minorities went off to America, removing the natives to build a "new" country for themselves, the Jews went off to Israel to do the same. South Africa, Australia, Rhodesia, it's happened in many places.
Perhaps if Europeans weren't historically so quick to oppress minority groups, people wouldn't so often seek refuge. I wish I shared your optimism, Bernel, but current events lead me to believe that there are still enough Europeans left that have learned nothing from history.
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(13-Mar-2004 at 19:14)
Re: Israel

Quote:
(Originally posted by nazarab)

Please write here your opinions of Israel and Israeli policy.

Thank you.

policy on what? weve got plenty of policies
ae you talking about tax policy
soccer policy
or what?
#13  
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(13-Mar-2004 at 19:17)
Quote:
(Originally posted by Michael1)

Perhaps if Europeans weren't historically so quick to oppress minority groups, people wouldn't so often seek refuge. I wish I shared your optimism, Bernel, but current events lead me to believe that there are still enough Europeans left that have learned nothing from history.
Michael, we havent invaded any countries for some time, who are closer to be a colonist? Dont take cheap shots like that please.

Israel is a tricky place where anger, pride and revenge is more important than peace.
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(13-Mar-2004 at 21:28)


Quote:
Israel is a tricky place where anger, pride and revenge is more important than peace.
No more than anywhere else.
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(13-Mar-2004 at 21:40)


Quote:
(Originally posted by Michael1)

Perhaps if Europeans weren't historically so quick to oppress minority groups, people wouldn't so often seek refuge. I wish I shared your optimism, Bernel, but current events lead me to believe that there are still enough Europeans left that have learned nothing from history.
I get the feeling that you don't consider yourself a European. If we are going to talk about history, Europe is where everyone came from. Well, except for the Native Americans, and I know that you are rather quick to oppress them as a minority now. And you are right, some people just don't learn from history. Care to give Bush one?

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#16  
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(13-Mar-2004 at 21:59)
Quote:
(Originally posted by Jasse)
you stated documentary and i am sure your news is biased one way, ive never seen 100% impartial news before. and as i stated earlier what are the voews of a couple of people who have no real significance, they have some importance but are not the be all and end all.
If you are going to defend Israel, Jasse, it might be good if you learned anything about it. A quick read in today's Jerusalem Post gave this article:
In the latest orchestrated leak to the press, Thursday Ma'ariv reported the details of the unilateral withdrawal plan drafted for Prime Minister Ariel Sharon by his National Security Council. The plan involves the expulsion of Israelis not only from the Gush Katif, Kfar Darom and Netzarim in Gaza, but also from up to 25 additional towns in Judea and Samaria.

Note how evacuating settlements are described as "expulsion" and how the West Bank is labelled "Judea and Samaria" which is about the same as to call Israel "Western Palestine". These are quite common sentiments, in fact you can find much worse, and it is not a fringe opinion.
#17  
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(13-Mar-2004 at 22:01)


Quote:
(Originally posted by Michael1)

Perhaps if Europeans weren't historically so quick to oppress minority groups, people wouldn't so often seek refuge. I wish I shared your optimism, Bernel, but current events lead me to believe that there are still enough Europeans left that have learned nothing from history.
yeah from an american. more to the point what exactly do you mean? seek refuge, from what and where. Are there millions of europeans hiding from mad cows in bunkers what exactly do you mean. Europeans not only have learnt from history but they have one, most of the great ideas and ideals of this world are from europe. Colonialism had some bad aspects but for its spreading of prosperity and democracy it greatly advanced this world. Colonisation also created canada, australia, america, and many many more.

Quote:
Israel is a tricky place where anger, pride and revenge is more important than peace.
i agree with anger, there is a lot of that floating about but it is not really a matter of pride or really revenge. The word revenge is used a lot and does occur but how blowing up a bus can correlate with the death of a terrorist leader for example confuses me, its not revenge in agression.

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#18  
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(14-Mar-2004 at 00:56)


Quote:
(Originally posted by Jasse)

yeah from an american. more to the point what exactly do you mean? seek refuge, from what and where. Are there millions of europeans hiding from mad cows in bunkers what exactly do you mean. Europeans not only have learnt from history but they have one, most of the great ideas and ideals of this world are from europe. Colonialism had some bad aspects but for its spreading of prosperity and democracy it greatly advanced this world. Colonisation also created canada, australia, america, and many many more.
As an American who likes to point out the BS around me, I have to agree with Jasse. Calling Europeans ignorant of history is hypocritical when you come from a country where half of its citizens don't know how their country became independent.

Americans have meddled in world affairs just as much as Europeans, yet we are quick to point out interference by other countries while happily going about it ourselves.

However Jasse, while colonisation created strong and stable countries like the US, Canada, Australia, and India, it also to some extent created the turmoil in the Middle East and Africa. Double-edged sword there.

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#19  
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(14-Mar-2004 at 19:10)
India and stable don't go together when you're talking about the US, Canada and Australia in the same sentence.

I'd think turmoil started because Turkish empire collasped. Also there was the Pan Islamic movement. The main problems came from the Soviet Union, while the US is more recent.

Israel is just another country looking out for it's own interests in a world of other countries looking out for theirs. Don't understand why people come down to hard on them. Their country isn't going through the problems Israel is going through, so they can't really say they'd do differently in the same situation. Same as how the IMF botched up the SE Asian crisis, because the local economy doesn't work the way the IMF is accustomed to. I'd cry wolf if they were massacreing

Anyway, to me, the problem is this. Groups like Hamas are launching attacks on civillians. What would be the desired response of Israel as dictated by world community? Not retaliate, since retaliation would result in too many civillian casualties since terrorists like to hide in crowds to avoid assasination.

I believe they do so so their expected assasination would create enough casualties they'd have another line of walking bombs to choose from. (You'd think they'd be selfless enough to stay somewhere else out of compassion for the innocent civillians) Therefore, retaliation would be counterproductive because you'd just create more anger and more suicide bombers. From this perspective, people who say Israel kills the bystanders on purpose and cold bloodedly are wrong. However, Israel assasinates terrorists with the knowledge bystanders will be killed. Not quite the same, but not much nicer. Either way, the killing of innocent civillians by the Israeli military isn't in Israels interests so I doubt they want to do it. So retaliation isn't beneficial.

However, weakness or perceived weakness on the part of Israel hasn't worked in the past. The few recent demolishments of settlements have been credited to Hamas by Hamas themselves to anyone who'd listen. With this, they justify their terrorism and garner more support because they seem to be getting "results". In the past the withdrawals have been met with increased attacks and more civillian deaths. Less aggression makes it easier for Hamas to launch attacks too because they don't have to keep looking behind their backs. So non-retaliation isn't quite so attractive. So what would you have them do? I believe by using the retaliation option they transfer the civillian deaths over to the other side.

Frankly, I believe that the main reason why the problem persists is because there is not real Authority on the Palestinian side. The PA cannot control Hamas or any other terrorist organization because it cannot do so without damaging it's own power. It's promises carry no water because even if the PA is sincere, the terrorist organizations would pay no heed to cease fires or peace deals. There cannot be diplomacy if there is no real government to do diplomacy with.

The weakness of the PA is somewhat Israels fault too. But the current situation cannot be remedied easily. Talking about ancient history and about how Israel shouldn't exist is pointless because it already does, and you can't ask 6 million people to jump into the sea. Many people there were born and raised there, and further displacing them would be trying to make 2 wrongs into a right.

I used to have 2 main gripes about Israel. 1 was the settlements which were unnecesarry, and the wall, which says basically there's not solution so stay away.(which isn't really incorrect, but it cuts into Palestinian land. Build it on their own then fine). Now I'm seeing if Sharon will really go through with the removal of settlements.

And Bernel, I think that
Quote:
and how the West Bank is labelled "Judea and Samaria"
is supportive of Jasse's statement that all news is biased. Also, I think using the Palestinian names would cause a lot of confusion since many reading that paper would not know which towns Judea and Samaria used to be, so it would be clearer to use names familiar to Israelis. Maybe that's just me underestimating the general knowledge of Israelis though.
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