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Posts: 944/1637
(29-Feb-2008 at 08:20)
On Logic and God

If we opened a new dialog and you asked me what God is, I wouldn't know. Logically, the belief in God is just stupidity. But does logic possess it's own similar kind of stupidity?
  1. Is it 'bad' to be illogical? If so, how does a value become 'bad'?
  2. When is it logical to use logic?

It seems that logic is merely observational and way of organizing things. It is the doing part which makes the use of logic stupid, because a value in itself is not stupid, but the way this is interpretted that makes it stupid. Which is why logic does not prove anything, but gives the illusion of proving things because we use logic for things that are illogical. In fact, the application of logic can never justify itself logically. And if logic does not have a use that is logical, then why do we use logic?

Logic is a means to an ends, that is, a clearly defined ends that is predeterminded before the aspect of logic is employed. God is employed in exactly the same way. Inherently, neither path is more logical until we decide to apply our logic, in which case we have an ends in mind without logical justification. Logic is a formula Of things, not For things.

Therefore, all things come down to 'our means and our ends', nothing more. Truth must be measured by the means, according to how well we succeed in achieving our ends. But what is our ends? A higher ideal would require a better means. Our ends must be as highest the ideal that we can envision. Our ends must be to be like God. That is, unless you can better this ideal?
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View Public Profile Find more posts by Gotterdammerung Add Gotterdammerung to your Buddy List Reply with Quote
Posts: 161/164
(29-Feb-2008 at 12:43)
1. it is not "bad" to be illogical - "bad" is a subjective word
2. always

Logic is usede to determine what is true and what is false. Nothing more, nothing less. The thing is that logic is often misused.
I think if you studied logic very closely you would see that it is in fact very useful in many cases. It will however never be able to prove/disprove "God" (whoever he/she/it may be) as the whole idea of god is based on belief and not on proof (which is exactly what logic is used for, to give proofs)
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Posts: 831/904
(29-Feb-2008 at 23:21)


Our limited human logic is woefully insufficient to comprehend an infinite being.

"Those who would give up Essential Liberty to purchase a little Temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety." - Benjamin Franklin
#3  
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(01-Mar-2008 at 02:50)
Only because you think it is illogical to believe in God it doesnt mean it is illogical to believe in God, just that you with your meager human knowledge dont have all the knowledge that God has and cant see the whole picture.

Also God is omnious and exists outside of logic.

Its always right to use logics but you cant apply logics to a situation in which you dont have all the facts and expect to be right all the time.
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Posts: 1741/2297
(01-Mar-2008 at 15:35)


Re: On Logic and God

Originally Posted by Gotterdammerung: View Post
If we opened a new dialog and you asked me what God is, I wouldn't know. Logically, the belief in God is just stupidity. But does logic possess it's own similar kind of stupidity?
That's just not true. There's nothing logical or illogical about the belief in God itself. As you said, logic is only a tool. It processes information to come to conclusions. When it comes to God, we simply have too little information to determine whether his existance is illogical.
Quote:
Logic is usede to determine what is true and what is false. Nothing more, nothing less. The thing is that logic is often misused.
I think if you studied logic very closely you would see that it is in fact very useful in many cases. It will however never be able to prove/disprove "God" (whoever he/she/it may be) as the whole idea of god is based on belief and not on proof (which is exactly what logic is used for, to give proofs)
Ugh, so wrong. Logic isn't used to determine what is true or false, it is used to determine what reasonings are valid. That's a big difference.
Quote:
Also God is omnious and exists outside of logic.

Its always right to use logics but you cant apply logics to a situation in which you dont have all the facts and expect to be right all the time.
I hate it when people shout out stupidities like this one without even realising what in fact they are saying. Logic is not something 'in' the world, it is how the human mind is structured. For example, the rule of non contradiction (-p excludes p) indicates that we cannot comprehend something that is both the case and not the case.

Now, if you declare a concept to be 'outside of logic', you don't just say that you can't understand it, you are practically saying that the concept is useless. Every single religion, whether they admit it or not works with the assumption that God is logical. Christians pray because they expect the logical result that it will please God. They refrain from killing because they logically expect that it angers God. And they trust the bible because it would be illogical to give people a holy book that contains nonsense. Etc etc.

If you take logic away from God, religion and belief become nonsense. You can't say what pleases or angers God anymore, because that makes the assumption that God's responses is logically related to your actions. We can't say anything else about him either because all the concepts that we can possibly use in a useful way are logically coherent.

Modern world I'm not pleased to meet you

You just bring me down
#5  
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(01-Mar-2008 at 19:04)


Re: On Logic and God

Originally Posted by Caelis666: View Post
That's just not true. There's nothing logical or illogical about the belief in God itself. As you said, logic is only a tool. It processes information to come to conclusions. When it comes to God, we simply have too little information to determine whether his existance is illogical.
That's just not true. I can claim that I regularly commune with pixies and dragons because they've chosen to give me special sight into their world. Would you similarly accept this as an argument that currently has too little information to be logically challenged, simply because it's unfalsifiable? Logic and reason do not need to land us with absolute truths, but may help us instead to arrive at the most probable truth.

Originally Posted by Isaac Asimov:
To surrender to ignorance and call it God has always been premature, and it remains premature today.

"People demand freedom of speech as a compensation for the freedom of thought which they seldom use."
-Soren Kierkegaard
"Those who know don't say, and those who say don't know."
- Lao Tzu
More Quotes...
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(01-Mar-2008 at 19:37)


Re: On Logic and God

Originally Posted by Syke: View Post
That's just not true. I can claim that I regularly commune with pixies and dragons because they've chosen to give me special sight into their world. Would you similarly accept this as an argument that currently has too little information to be logically challenged, simply because it's unfalsifiable? Logic and reason do not need to land us with absolute truths, but may help us instead to arrive at the most probable truth.
I'd say that your belief in them is unreasonable, or perhaps even irrational, but it has nothing to do with logic. Logic is a mathematical tool that cannot function without data. Since there is no data it cannot help us.

And people talking about probable truths make me laugh.

Modern world I'm not pleased to meet you

You just bring me down
#7  
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Posts: 935/1035
(01-Mar-2008 at 20:44)
Re: On Logic and God

Originally Posted by Caelis666: View Post
That's just not true. There's nothing logical or illogical about the belief in God itself. As you said, logic is only a tool. It processes information to come to conclusions. When it comes to God, we simply have too little information to determine whether his existance is illogical.

Ugh, so wrong. Logic isn't used to determine what is true or false, it is used to determine what reasonings are valid. That's a big difference.

I hate it when people shout out stupidities like this one without even realising what in fact they are saying. Logic is not something 'in' the world, it is how the human mind is structured. For example, the rule of non contradiction (-p excludes p) indicates that we cannot comprehend something that is both the case and not the case.

Now, if you declare a concept to be 'outside of logic', you don't just say that you can't understand it, you are practically saying that the concept is useless. Every single religion, whether they admit it or not works with the assumption that God is logical. Christians pray because they expect the logical result that it will please God. They refrain from killing because they logically expect that it angers God. And they trust the bible because it would be illogical to give people a holy book that contains nonsense. Etc etc.

If you take logic away from God, religion and belief become nonsense. You can't say what pleases or angers God anymore, because that makes the assumption that God's responses is logically related to your actions. We can't say anything else about him either because all the concepts that we can possibly use in a useful way are logically coherent.
I didnt say that God doesnt do what is right just that God doesnt need to do what you and me see as the logical thing.
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Posts: 1743/2297
(01-Mar-2008 at 20:57)


Re: On Logic and God

Originally Posted by Pollock: View Post
I didnt say that God doesnt do what is right just that God doesnt need to do what you and me see as the logical thing.
So potentially, God could send you to hell for being nice to people and praying?


Modern world I'm not pleased to meet you

You just bring me down
#9  
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(02-Mar-2008 at 00:48)
Re: On Logic and God

Originally Posted by Caelis666: View Post
So potentially, God could send you to hell for being nice to people and praying?

Yeah of course, its not God that is saying that praying is good its humans.
#10  
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(02-Mar-2008 at 08:49)
Re: On Logic and God

Originally Posted by Caelis666: View Post
[...]

If you take logic away from God, religion and belief become nonsense.
Suppose if faith is just nonsense, then what does that matter? Believers become like children, innocent but reckless. Their strokes are broad and unhampered, in a way that would terrify a logical man. But I wonder: what is there really to fear? Why do we have to take ourselves so seriously? It's like there's a fantastic joke going on, but we're all too processed to be laughing. Has the world turned German?
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(02-Mar-2008 at 10:09)


Re: On Logic and God

Originally Posted by Pollock: View Post
Yeah of course, its not God that is saying that praying is good its humans.
So all child rapers could get into heaven and everyone who does volunteer work could get into hell. Great God you have there. Do you really believe this or are you just arguing for the hell of it?
Quote:
Suppose if faith is just nonsense, then what does that matter? Believers become like children, innocent but reckless. Their strokes are broad and unhampered, in a way that would terrify a logical man. But I wonder: what is there really to fear? Why do we have to take ourselves so seriously? It's like there's a fantastic joke going on, but we're all too processed to be laughing. Has the world turned German?
OD'ing on Nietzsche again are we?

It's not about taking ourselves too seriously. It's about the limits to the human mind which necessarily consist of our logical abilities.

Modern world I'm not pleased to meet you

You just bring me down
#12  
View Public Profile Find more posts by Caelis666 Add Caelis666 to your Buddy List Reply with Quote
(Posted as matinog)
Posts: 705/922
(02-Mar-2008 at 15:37)


1. You base your logic on what you know and many times on things you don't know, and thats when using logic is bad. God, in a sense, can be described as a rationalization created by believers to justify their institutionalized actions. But since god is irrational to us, he wouldn't need that rationalization.

2. It is logical to use logic under the conditions that you know everything that could happen through either study or practice. For a scientist it is logical to use logic. If you claim that god works beyond our capacity of reason, then it is illogical to apply logic to him. If you are trying to consider all possible scenarios for a situation, but don't consider all because of lack of knowledge, then it is illogical and unsafe to use logic.
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Posts: 947/1637
(03-Mar-2008 at 01:58)
Quote:
Now, if you declare a concept to be 'outside of logic', you don't just say that you can't understand it, you are practically saying that the concept is useless. Every single religion, whether they admit it or not works with the assumption that God is logical. Christians pray because they expect the logical result that it will please God. They refrain from killing because they logically expect that it angers God. And they trust the bible because it would be illogical to give people a holy book that contains nonsense. Etc etc.

If you take logic away from God, religion and belief become nonsense. You can't say what pleases or angers God anymore, because that makes the assumption that God's responses is logically related to your actions. We can't say anything else about him either because all the concepts that we can possibly use in a useful way are logically coherent.
Does this also mean that we couldn't have ever really 'heard' about God because this presumes a logical connection which is not present?
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(03-Mar-2008 at 16:28)


Re: On Logic and God

Originally Posted by Gotterdammerung: View Post
Does this also mean that we couldn't have ever really 'heard' about God because this presumes a logical connection which is not present?
I have no idea what you mean.

Modern world I'm not pleased to meet you

You just bring me down
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(13-Mar-2008 at 08:53)
What if God is showing us in scriptures what is most logical?
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Donated $0.52
(14-Mar-2008 at 01:12)
Aren't all beliefs in that case illogical?

If you say 'I believe abortion is wrong'. Why? Because it is wrong to kill... Why? Because if we all killed then humanity would die. Why is that a bad thiing?

All beliefs are at base illogical.
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(14-Mar-2008 at 03:27)
Our beliefs are like the 'myths' of our time. These myths are the foundation for our imagination. While not ever logical in themselves (since they exist before any logical process can be employed), our myths are also like the raw materials for our mind for us to make sense of the world. Myths are necessary in order for us to manage our actions and cause changes in reality.

...

As to what our myths ought to be....? It's a good question. I'm not sure logic and reason can help us on this one.

Last edited by Gotterdammerung, 14-Mar-2008 at 03:36.
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(14-Mar-2008 at 16:42)


Sure myths can help orientate and structure imagination, and probably do so at a fundamental cognitive level. That doesn't mean we need them in order to have an imagination or ideal though, or that they're a requirement in order for us to 'deal with' reality. I also think there are plenty of non-religious as well as logically sound 'myths' that can equally provide this orientating function; the (often subtly implied) idea that the loss of 'God' has created a society at drift, with no clear moral direction, is a bit simplistic to me.

(Did you just watch MoM by any chance?)

Your brain is unique in the history of the universe. Use it wisely.
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(15-Mar-2008 at 09:23)
Re: On Logic and God

Originally Posted by Dusk Illz: View Post
Sure myths can help orientate and structure imagination, and probably do so at a fundamental cognitive level. That doesn't mean we need them in order to have an imagination or ideal though, or that they're a requirement in order for us to 'deal with' reality.
I would be interested as what we could imagine or idealize about without somekind of mythological substance to mold ourselves around. On what level of the mind do you experience what is mythless? If I ask you, "what is reality?" and you answer in any way, then I would presume that you've already taken on a myth in your own mind to recognise such a thing as a 'reality.'

I can only assume that you are coming from a more Buddhist-type point of view. Where 'reality' is just as it is. Though even then I would argue that attachment to myths are still held almost to the very end, i.e. to deconstruct reality or 'immediate experience' needs a myth of deconstruction and so on and so forth.

Quote:
(Did you just watch MoM by any chance?)
I don't think so. What film do you mean?
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