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View Poll Results: Would you support a two state settlement on the 1967 borders?
Yes 17 58.62%
No 12 41.38%
Who voted? Voters: 29
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Posts: 1589/1675
(16-Jan-2009 at 09:33)


Israeli-Palestinian peace: 1967 borders?

Would you support a two state settlement on the 1967 borders? Map, with the Palestinian state in red and yellow. And a page with all the West Bank settlements marked.

"Observers worldwide have been expressing great pity for the people of Gaza [...] This pity may be a natural emotional reaction, yet it is unethical and immoral." - Adi Dvir, Ynetnews editor
#1  
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Posts: 565/742
(17-Jan-2009 at 01:07)


Though i find it hard to imagine Palestine succesfully building up a state on two seperate pieces of land, it would be a vast improvement over the current situation.

Your brain is unique in the history of the universe. Use it wisely.
#2  
View Public Profile Find more posts by Dusk Illz Add Dusk Illz to your Buddy List Reply with Quote
Posts: 4779/4829
(17-Jan-2009 at 19:52)


Yeah. Would be nice if that were possible.

Problem is that the Palestinians wont make peace if Israel gives up all that land, which means that such a "peace" would merely place more Israeli citizens in the crosshairs. Every time the Israelis give up land, the terror attacks get more vicious because it makes the terrorists think they are winning.

Such a mistake cannot and should not be repeated. Israel has so far been the only ones giving and they have received nothing in return. This time it is up to the Palestinians to reign in their fighters and prove that they CAN live in peace. It is such a small thing for them to stop launching rockets and suicide attacks.

Alas that will not happen. An entire generation of Palestinians have been raised to be fanatics solely focused on the destruction of the Jews. (http://www.wnd.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=55582) You cannot make peace with those who view your death as a moral imperative. You can only hope to defeat them in such a way that they think twice about turning to violence again.
#3  
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Posts: 1591/1675
(18-Jan-2009 at 00:46)


I see a lot of conjecture, RA3, but no facts. The link I posted earlier has facts. You'll see a map with an incredible amount of settlements. It is factual, it is indisputable!! that Israel has been steadily grabbing land ever since '67 (and even '48). You just cannot go around it. Stating otherwise is completely fraudulent. I three double dare you to come up with facts that suggest that Israel has been giving up land more than it takes. If, even, you can use the word "give" when its about stolen land.

I also dont think the two-state settlement is a cure-all. But it is the best start imaginable. I will assume that the Palestinians are normal people craving a life of security and stability. If they are granted that, it seems logical (sociologically) that popular support for troublemakers like Hamas will plummet. Groups with the pathological desire to destroy Israel and/or Jews will always exist, but if the Israelis show justice for once (which they havent in 60 years) then support for such groups will wither and die. Think of it in terms of ideological market forces. When the ideology is obsolete, it will lose credit and people will turn to a more sensible one!

"Observers worldwide have been expressing great pity for the people of Gaza [...] This pity may be a natural emotional reaction, yet it is unethical and immoral." - Adi Dvir, Ynetnews editor
#4  
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Posts: 1401/1971
(18-Jan-2009 at 02:56)


Quote:
Such a mistake cannot and should not be repeated. Israel has so far been the only ones giving and they have received nothing in return.
lol...

Let me give you a scenario. A man steals your wallet with 100 dollars in it. You chase him down and shove a gun in his face and demand to be given back your wallet. So he says "alright alright!" and gives you your wallet back with 50 dollars in it. Do you say "ok that's cool" and walk away leaving him with the other 50?

Tax collectors are a valid military target - chobham
#5  
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Posts: 3067/3642
(18-Jan-2009 at 10:14)


Blah, these simile's always annoy the shit out of me. Even if a potentially accurate simile was made and someone replied to it, you're never going to hear them tell that you're right and they're not going to reply the way you want anyway, but here's my (surely disappointing) response to it.

It's far worse to point a gun at someone than steal money. You let the police deal with it, and if they can't get your money back - tough luck. If someone stole my 100 and tossed 50 back at me, I'd probably pick up the 50 and be a lot less disappointed than if I got back none of it. If someone tried to hit a stronger individual though, I don't see what would be wrong with the latter beating the living fuck out of that former, even if the damage is not "proportional".

I would support the idea if terrorism from that area stopped for a long period of time, (or else imprisoning the people responsible for the terrorism for long periods of time), but I don't support a nation donating land to people who will more than likely continue to be hostile to them, especially while hostile politicians are in power. If things can ever calm down long enough, then yes - I'd support it then.

If all else fails, call someone a troll.
that can be fixed... /
#6  
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Posts: 1403/1971
(18-Jan-2009 at 13:01)


Quote:
It's far worse to point a gun at someone than steal money.
If you don't kill him I hardly see why. I mean it's illegal obviously so probably stupid, but not particularly immoral...

Quote:
If someone tried to hit a stronger individual though, I don't see what would be wrong with the latter beating the living fuck out of that former, even if the damage is not "proportional".
Even if there was cause for the original attack? If some bigger guy kicked my kid in the face, and i punched him for it, would he then be justified in beating the fuck out of me?

Tax collectors are a valid military target - chobham
#7  
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Posts: 562/564
(24-Jan-2009 at 16:44)


Israel occupied the territory after the 6 day war. Since then they have made many concessions. As RA3 has mentioned the concessions have had a price as they continue to get attacked. It seems he was spot on in his assesment of the situation. The logical assumption would be that after giving up the land israel would continue to be attacked as they were before they occupied the land in the first place and as they were after occupation.

Last edited by morticianjohn, 24-Jan-2009 at 16:49.
#8  
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Posts: 1070/1637
(24-Jan-2009 at 23:17)
Re: Israeli-Palestinian peace: 1967 borders?

Originally Posted by Greeney: View Post
Blah, these simile's always annoy the shit out of me.
Do they? Here's another:

Look at this Israeli go.



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qMAcM9_02qA&NR=1
#9  
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Donated $3.64
(29-Jan-2009 at 06:09)


Maybe there is just something inherently wrong with Palestinians and their land. Before Israel it was the Brits taking over, and before that the Ottomans, and the chain goes back. I'm all for trying out peace and giving back old borders, but if the Palestinians cant keep their land....

Todays letter is brought to you by the letter "3"- Thats how many joints I smoked today.
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If you can't answer a man's arguments, all is not lost; you can still call him vile names.

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Last edited by Karupt, 29-Jan-2009 at 06:09.
#10  
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(01-Feb-2009 at 21:17)


Doesn't year 1967 borders mean that Gaza would belong to Egypt and West Bank would belong to Jordania...?

Generalization is rhetorics of simpletons.
"Sages learn from history... idiots learn from experience" -Fairy Tail manga
#11  
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Posts: 1437/1971
(02-Feb-2009 at 02:19)


Originally Posted by Lord Menchalior: View Post
Doesn't year 1967 borders mean that Gaza would belong to Egypt and West Bank would belong to Jordania...?
no

Tax collectors are a valid military target - chobham
#12  
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Posts: 1096/1637
(03-Feb-2009 at 01:59)
In a large enough context nothing belongs to anybody.

Some extraly motived SoBs would destroy whole nations just to prove this point.

Aggression never settles for nationhood, only dominion.
#13  
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(Posted as Eldarad)
Posts: 295/329
Donated $9.01
(06-Feb-2009 at 00:16)


A two-state solution is the only way there will be peace in the middle-east. Where the borders lie don't really mean a lot - far more important is whether both sides buy-in to the peace.
The key is convincing Hamas that they can achieve more through politics than they can through violence. I believe that day will come - just as it came for Sein Fein in Ireland. The exact geography of the borders is an irrelevance against the paradigm shift in thinking that needs to occur - and will occur, eventually - in Hamas.

I didn't vote in the poll...the two options provided are somewhat inadequate...

You only have power over people as long as you don't take everything from them.
But when you've robbed a man of everything, he's no longer in your power - he is free again.
#14  
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Posts: 1464/1971
(06-Feb-2009 at 01:08)


Quote:
Where the borders lie don't really mean a lot - far more important is whether both sides buy-in to the peace.
Well the latter is partially dependent on the former.

Quote:
The key is convincing Hamas that they can achieve more through politics than they can through violence.
The key is to create a situation where they actually can achieve more through politics. At the moment they cannot achieve anything through politics.

Tax collectors are a valid military target - chobham
#15  
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(Posted as Randomized)
Posts: 261/469
(19-Feb-2009 at 00:41)


Re: Israeli-Palestinian peace: 1967 borders?

Originally Posted by Spectre19: View Post
The key is to create a situation where they actually can achieve more through politics. At the moment they cannot achieve anything through politics.
However the violence isn't getting them very far either. If all the resources that went into weaponry and missiles would be redirected in the proper investments, (infrastructure, education, healthcare, trade) they should be able to create a wealthier state. There's a lot more to gain that way than continuing the violence and keep getting your houses bombed or bulldozered in retalliation.
#16  
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(19-Feb-2009 at 04:40)


Quote:
However the violence isn't getting them very far either. If all the resources that went into weaponry and missiles would be redirected in the proper investments, (infrastructure, education, healthcare, trade) they should be able to create a wealthier state. There's a lot more to gain that way than continuing the violence and keep getting your houses bombed or bulldozered in retalliation.
Uhh, Hamas already devotes 90% of it's budget towards social welfare. I bet it's that last 10% that's truly holding the Palestinians back!

"I once went on a long marathon session of masturbation with the goal of doing it 5 times and towards the end I was losing the ability to get it up. I started freaking out because that had never happened to me before and thought I had somehow broken something. After getting that fear in my head I had REAL difficulty getting it up no matter much much I touched it. -RA3
#17  
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(Posted as Randomized)
Posts: 262/469
(19-Feb-2009 at 12:00)


Re: Israeli-Palestinian peace: 1967 borders?

Originally Posted by Californication: View Post
Uhh, Hamas already devotes 90% of it's budget towards social welfare. I bet it's that last 10% that's truly holding the Palestinians back!
Ah yes, social welfare:

Quote:
Hamas's charitable societies and committees in Judea, Samaria and Gaza also provide food and monetary assistance to the families of those who have been killed and wounded in perpetrating acts of terror and who have been imprisoned for their involvement in acts of terror. Such families typically receive an initial, one-time grant of between $500-5,000, as well as a monthly allowance of approximately $100. The families of Hamas terrorists usually receive larger payments than those of non-Hamas terrorists. These charitable societies and committees also provide the families with scholarships and educational subsidies. The dawa groups also provide financial assistance for the rebuilding of homes that have been demolished due to their owners' involvement in terror.
http://www.mfa.gov.il/MFA/MFAArchive...und%20and%20su
#18  
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Posts: 1486/1971
(21-Feb-2009 at 12:38)


Originally Posted by Randomized: View Post
o hai guise lets c wut israel has to say lulz

Tax collectors are a valid military target - chobham
#19  
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(Posted as Randomized)
Posts: 266/469
(21-Feb-2009 at 14:09)


Re: Israeli-Palestinian peace: 1967 borders?

Originally Posted by Spectre19: View Post
o hai guise lets c wut israel has to say lulz
oh hey lets not come up with a source at all lolz yuk-yuk-yuk
#20  
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