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View Poll Results: Should Abortion become illegal?
Should be legal on request 22 30.56%
Should be illegal with the exception for rape, incest, mother's physical health etc etc 13 18.06%
Should be legal but illegal after the mother enters a certain trimester 30 41.67%
Should be illegal with no exceptions 5 6.94%
Other. 2 2.78%
Who voted? Voters: 72
You may not vote on this poll

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(26-Nov-2008 at 07:59)


Re: Should Abortion be illegal?

Originally Posted by Jasmine X: View Post
The poll is Biased. Where is my legal without any acceptions or hassels box?
First option
Should be legal on request

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#21  
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(26-Nov-2008 at 12:17)


Quote:
You deal with it like a decent, responsible person; you know, the type of person you were under the impression you were before getting laid. You knew the risks, if you weren't prepared for them you weren't mature enough to get laid in the first place. Usually, nobody first it upon the individual; deal with it like an adult.
That's a bullshit response. You are basically saying that if I am poor, I shouldn't be allowed to have sex because I can't support a child. That's disgraceful.

Quote:
I actually liked reading your entire response other than this quote, but this is one of those times I feel you're just acting like an ass for trying to put words in my mouth. If you asked rather than assumed, I would have told you both a mothers life or rape situation takes priority and the second time is only regarding the second time in which the woman chose to put herself in that position.
Well you didn't say that, so don't blame me for misinterpreting it =\

Quote:
Why not, isn't a parasite irrelevant?
This seems to suggest that somewhere deep down it does indeed bother you.

I think you would feel guilty if you suggested to a girlfriend to have an abortion. Maybe not for long, maybe you would push the feeling away, but I think at first you would know it was wrong. Then you would probably attempt to justify it. I don't think a good person could help but feel guilty for what they would be about to do; for good reason.
SEEMS to SUGGEST? Of course it bothers me, and I have said many times before that it does. But if I can't support a child, what is the point in having one? They are not going to have a good life, and to avoid it you aren't causing any entity any sort of pain, because it has no central nervous system. I know this doesn't make it perfectly right, but it's a harmless option when compared with either a) ruining someone's life for the sake of a child who will not be brought up well, or b) effectively barring anyone from having sex who is either poor or has a career that doesn't allow for the time it takes to raise children.

Quote:
After you have your first child, ask him/her if s/he wishes s/he was aborted (when s/he isn't in his/her emo-phase). Then I'll care what your sperm had to say about it.
As I was trying to portray with my "talking to sperm" example, what the living child thinks is irrelevant because the fetus has never been a living, breathing, thinking, feeling child. If the fetus (or sperm or ova) could give us their opinion, that opinion would be that they wouldn't give a shit.

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#22  
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(26-Nov-2008 at 12:40)


Re: Should Abortion be illegal?

Originally Posted by Dusk Illz: View Post
The model i think by is Life as a holarchy; an unfolding process wherein every consecutive step transcends as well as includes its predecessor. The whole has intrinsic value, but every developmental step also has 'added' value you might say. So, for example, both a tree and a bird are a perfect expression of the principle of Life, but i would rather eat the tree than eat the bird. In that case the exact criteria, if you would want to explicate them, are probably the evolutionary elements that seperate tree from bird; sensation, perception, locomotion, impulse, and such?

In the same vein, if forced to choose I would rather kill the bird than the monkey that feeds on it; the monkey again being a higher step in evolution's ladder.. In that case the exact criteria would probably be the capacity for emotion and a primitive self-consciousness (and any other ability that monkeys have developed but birds do not, i'm not a biologist in any way).

Looking at monkeys and humans, it's yet again the same distinction; humans include everything that monkeys have, but also transcend them by having developed symbols, concepts, a more elaborate self-awareness, and so on. That makes humans more 'valuable', but by no means makes every form of life leading up to humans 'worthless'.. To the contrary, there'd be no us without them. We're like the big chain of life wherein every link rests on the former.
This would imply that humanity is somehow the highpoint of life and that everything should be judged according to the standard of humanity. How can you say that we have everything a bird has and more? I can't fly. Why not say that a bird is higher in hierarchy because it can fly and I can't? (and if you want to throw in the 'we fly by planes' excuse, would this mean that birds would be worth more than people in the middle ages?) Also, I can't climb trees like a monkey, I can't live as long or grow as tall as a tree, etc etc. Your criteria are arbitrary, or more precisely, biased.

Your principle of value seems to rest on a mistaken understanding of what evolution is. There are no actual 'higher' steps in evolution, just life forms that are more capable of surviving in certain circumstances than others.

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#23  
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(26-Nov-2008 at 15:59)


I think that unless we actualy find some realiable method to extract and transfer fetuses as well as artifical wombs or something similiar abortion should be alloweed. It's not a nice thing but it's the woman's body and i don't feel that society has any right to make her chose to give birth agaisnt her wishes




Quote:
This would imply that humanity is somehow the highpoint of life and that everything should be judged according to the standard of humanity
Who's to say it isn't? After all unless a god suddenly jumps out of somewhere and takes some responsobility it is we humans who the dominant species unchallenged by anyone . We can decide the fate of entire species,forests,mountains and pretty much almost everything that is somehow connected to life on the planet. What other standarts by our own should we follow?

Altough i cab see how one could make a case on certain animals being better then humans



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Last edited by DHoffryn, 26-Nov-2008 at 16:01.
#24  
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(26-Nov-2008 at 17:50)


Re: Should Abortion be illegal?

Originally Posted by Caelis666: View Post
This would imply that humanity is somehow the highpoint of life and that everything should be judged according to the standard of humanity. How can you say that we have everything a bird has and more? I can't fly. Why not say that a bird is higher in hierarchy because it can fly and I can't? (and if you want to throw in the 'we fly by planes' excuse, would this mean that birds would be worth more than people in the middle ages?) Also, I can't climb trees like a monkey, I can't live as long or grow as tall as a tree, etc etc. Your criteria are arbitrary, or more precisely, biased.
I think humanity is the current highpoint of evolution, and so do most people implicitly or explicitly. Do you see it differently? As for should everything be judged according to human standards; i'd be interested in finding a non-human standard of judgment. Especially since you yourself brought up human morality as the value-criterion in your first post in this thread. How does that not implicitly rest on a hierarchy with humanity at the top?

Note that i didn't say we have everything a bird has and more, no more than we have everything a tree or a monkey has either. I'm saying we improved on both those species on the one dimension that really counts; social organization and depth of consciousness, of which human morality is but an expression. Flight is merely a type of locomotion, by itself no more or less valuable than swimming or walking.

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#25  
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(26-Nov-2008 at 18:36)


I dont have enough time to read, I am currently moving and low on time but I do want to respond. I think abortion should be legal, my feelings on this are even though I don't want people to have abortions making them illegal won't stop abortions. The only thing that ever has or will happen when abortions are illegal is not that people stop getting abortions but that they end up having illegal abortions or a "back alley abortion". Which is extremely dangerous and risky. Instead of making abortions illegal it is time for people to step up and help society to reduce the leading causes for people being in situations which end up being aborted.

Anyone who chooses to make abortions illegal are ignoring the simple truth of the matter, something being illegal doesn't stop people (otherwise murder would have disappeared years ago). And I do understand the religious side, like I said I don't like abortion, I don't want people to have abortions and I've known people to use abortions as birth control (which specifically angers me). But just because some bad seeds ruin it doesn't mean we need to risk the lives of so many women. Plus if someone does an illegal abortion sometimes it doesn't always actually abort, now you have a child who is messed up, a mother who is messed up and it could all easily be prevented.

So I ask that anyone against abortion instead of purposely risking peoples lives (which is what your doing by making it illegal) by making abortion illegal is actually stop being lazy and help society. Help spread birth control techniques to those in more poor areas - which will also help for std's (depending on birth control of choice). Help those who become pregnant by working with people so they feel they can take care of a kid. Simply put stop being lazy and asking for abortion to be illegal, actually stand up and better the lives of people, and your request will follow.

Lastly though, I am a man. As a man I physically cannot have a child, it won't grow within my body. Because of this I don't have any actual idea as to what it is like, no man does and so really we shouldn't have any more say over abortion rights then what a woman chooses to do for her period.

As for other women, since they are physically their own person they don't know what someone else is TRULY going through. Two people might lead similar lives, but there are billions of things that make a person, and some of those things contain mental and physical illness, personal and financial issues and all of these things make each person unique. Because of this even another woman doesn't know exactly how well another person can handle a situation and so has no right to claim control over this to them.

Not only that but say these people do have abortions, typically the people having abortions aren't well off in life, don't usually have the things that make raising a child do-able. Not to say someone can't raise a child while poor - it is very possible and happens every day. But is it really "right" to bring a child into a world where they will starve, be alone and cold, possibly get beaten. And sadly and truthfully children that are raised in bad situations usually continue the cycle. Usually get into drugs and alcohol (which aren't bad themselves but only in moderation), usually turn to illegal and criminal activities which could even be potentially harmful to those who are around.

Again not to say that abortion is good or should ever be done, but the answer isn't to make it illegal.

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#26  
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(27-Nov-2008 at 11:43)


Re: Should Abortion be illegal?

Originally Posted by Greeney: View Post
All I can do is hope that women who would do this, and men who support it, feel ashamed of themselves if/when they have their first (non-aborted) child (poor fucking luck for that kid) if not sooner. If someone isn't ready to take responsibility for something they're planning to do, maybe it's a great fucking idea not to do it!
Did'nt bat an eyelid the first time one of my girlfirends abortered did'nt bat an eyelid the second or third time ......... the day my daughters where born was the greatest day of my life.

Stick YOUR caveman morality's where the sun does'nt shine.

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#27  
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(27-Nov-2008 at 12:30)


Re: Should Abortion be illegal?

Originally Posted by Dusk Illz: View Post
I think humanity is the current highpoint of evolution, and so do most people implicitly or explicitly. Do you see it differently? As for should everything be judged according to human standards; i'd be interested in finding a non-human standard of judgment. Especially since you yourself brought up human morality as the value-criterion in your first post in this thread. How does that not implicitly rest on a hierarchy with humanity at the top?
It does not imply a hierarchy because I think that humans are the only beings that have moral value. The fact that we are the only beings that have moral standards is precisely what gives humanity its moral value.

And if you're basing such a hierarchy on evolution, you are simply abusing scientific theory.

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#28  
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(27-Nov-2008 at 14:41)


Re: Should Abortion be illegal?

Originally Posted by Caelis666: View Post
It does not imply a hierarchy because I think that humans are the only beings that have moral value. The fact that we are the only beings that have moral standards is precisely what gives humanity its moral value.
But the question that started this was that of value, not of moral value. If you're arguing it's moral standards that makes humanity the most valuable thing in the world, i agree. If you're arguing it's moral standards that makes humanity the only valuable thing in the world, i disagree completely. That leaves you with a terribly flat view of life, where a carrot has as much value as a cow and kicking a stone is the same thing as kicking a monkey (or a fetus for that matter, since it's equally pre-moral).

You seem to have a worldview that derives value exclusively from human morality without taking into account how that morality came about throughout the evolution of life.

I have a worldview that similarly derives value from human morality, but simultaneously acknowledges the countless steps in animal evolution that were required for us to ever reach this state of moral consciousness. Hence i attach value not just to the end product (human morality) but also to the steps along the path that actually got us there (sensation, conception, self-consciousness, etc., and their exterior correlates).

How is mine judging according to the standard of humanity and yours not?

How does yours, provided i characterized it adequately, do justice to the complexity of Life?

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#29  
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(27-Nov-2008 at 14:42)
"You deal with it like a decent, responsible person; you know, the type of person you were under the impression you were before getting laid. You knew the risks, if you weren't prepared for them you weren't mature enough to get laid in the first place. Usually, nobody first it upon the individual; deal with it like an adult."

If they werent mature enough to get laid in the first place they obviously arent mature enough to have a child and raise it in a good way either.
And thats one of many reasons why abortion should be legal.
#30  
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(27-Nov-2008 at 16:19)


Given the nasty, nasty pre-legalisation abortions, it has to remain legal.

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(27-Nov-2008 at 16:26)


Re: Should Abortion be illegal?

Originally Posted by Dusk Illz: View Post
But the question that started this was that of value, not of moral value. If you're arguing it's moral standards that makes humanity the most valuable thing in the world, i agree. If you're arguing it's moral standards that makes humanity the only valuable thing in the world, i disagree completely. That leaves you with a terribly flat view of life, where a carrot has as much value as a cow and kicking a stone is the same thing as kicking a monkey (or a fetus for that matter, since it's equally pre-moral).

You seem to have a worldview that derives value exclusively from human morality without taking into account how that morality came about throughout the evolution of life.

I have a worldview that similarly derives value from human morality, but simultaneously acknowledges the countless steps in animal evolution that were required for us to ever reach this state of moral consciousness. Hence i attach value not just to the end product (human morality) but also to the steps along the path that actually got us there (sensation, conception, self-consciousness, etc., and their exterior correlates).

How is mine judging according to the standard of humanity and yours not?

How does yours, provided i characterized it adequately, do justice to the complexity of Life?
Both of us judge according to the standard of humanity, but for me this is no problem because I start from the unique value of humanity. You try to give everything value, in which case it becomes arbitrary to hierarchize it from our point of view. I don't need to use standards that I don't value.

Also, evolutionary ethics is properly regarded as bad ethics. Why is every step on the way to human morality valuable in itself? Are bacteria valuable in themselves? Then why? Absolute nonsense. If you used the ladder to get up somewhere and you're not planning to go down again, you can toss the ladder away. The ladder doesn't have value in itself, it was simply a means to an end. Great that we needed so many evolutionary steps to get where we are, but now we are where we are, so there's no reason to value those steps in themselves.

Third, accusing me of having a flat view of life is bad rhetorics. This is only true if you already accept your standards. From my point of view however you have a naive, mystified view of life that's undefendable on grounds other then pure aesthetics and a bad understanding of evolutionary theory.

And I don't understand your latter question at all. It seems like you're commiting a simple is/ought fallacy. Biological life is complex, therefore our value system should be complex too? This is just bad reasoning. And again, giving the word life a capital L is merely a bad rhetorical trick.

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#32  
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(28-Nov-2008 at 02:14)


Re: Should Abortion be illegal?

Originally Posted by HarleyQuinnROX: View Post
Did'nt bat an eyelid the first time one of my girlfirends abortered did'nt bat an eyelid the second or third time ......... the day my daughters where born was the greatest day of my life.
Yet, if the (lack of a) lady you got pregnant decided not to have an abortion, you would have pretended that the day that child was born was the greatest day of your life as well. Very believable.

Do your daughters know they wouldn't be here if they decided to come out of your dick at a less convenient time? Shouldn't be a problem for them to know if there's nothing at all wrong with it, right?

Quote:
Stick YOUR caveman morality's where the sun does'nt shine.
Because cavemen were very anti-abortion?
I do believe that even they, as a whole, had more morals than killing their own children though.

-----------------------------------------------------------------

Originally Posted by H3nkaN:
If they werent mature enough to get laid in the first place they obviously arent mature enough to have a child and raise it in a good way either.
And thats one of many reasons why abortion should be legal.
There are alternatives to raising a child.
I also do not believe that the majority of children with difficult lives, or children that were not raised by their parents, would tell you that they would prefer not having been born.

-----------------------------------------------------------------

Quote:
You misunderstood Nimon's post. What he was saying is that this 9th child WOULD say they wanted to be born.
You must have stopped reading Nimon's post halfway through it.
I didn't answer the first half because I didn't feel like dealing with the ridiculous ""I'm going to pretend to talk to my sperm,"-like arguments.


Quote:
The point being, what could have been is vastly different from what is.
What is, is a baby forming inside of its mother.
It's a matter of ending an existence that you're supposed to care for.

Quote:
That is why abortions after, say, the fifteenth year are not legal, compared for instance to while the individual in question is still a lump of organic matter without a central nervous system.
The fifteenth year?

-------------------------------------------------------------------

Originally Posted by Grashnak:
Given the nasty, nasty pre-legalisation abortions, it has to remain legal.
Well yeah, if the mother is going to go to any length to kill her baby, then I agree with you. What makes me most uncomfortable is that so many of these babies are killed simply because abortion is legal and (I feel) socially encouraged.

-------------------------------------------------------------------

Originally Posted by Spectre19:
That's a bullshit response. You are basically saying that if I am poor, I shouldn't be allowed to have sex because I can't support a child. That's disgraceful.
And you are basically saying that someone who is wealthy has more of a responsibility to take care of their child than someone who isn't, or else that neither of them should have to deal with responsibility.

I'm saying if you have sex, you should be prepared to take the child, regardless of the amount of money you are making.

Quote:
Well you didn't say that, so don't blame me for misinterpreting it =\
Speaking of bullshit arguments: "Because you didn't specify it as clearly as humanly possible means I can assume whatever I want about it" is amongst them.

Quote:
SEEMS to SUGGEST? Of course it bothers me, and I have said many times before that it does.
Why? I thought people here are doing everything possible to convince me (or themselves, more likely IMO) that there's nothing wrong with it?

Quote:
But if I can't support a child, what is the point in having one? They are not going to have a good life
Ask a child in a difficult position if they wish they were never born.

Who is the better parent; the ones who live with their parents in a poor family or the ones who would have aborted their child if it was an inconvenience?

Quote:
and to avoid it you aren't causing any entity any sort of pain, because it has no central nervous system. I know this doesn't make it perfectly right, but it's a harmless option when compared with either a) ruining someone's life for the sake of a child who will not be brought up well, or b) effectively barring anyone from having sex who is either poor or has a career that doesn't allow for the time it takes to raise children.
So if I believe someone is going to ruin my life, would you say I should legally be allowed to kill that person if I am sure I can do it without causing them any sort of pain?

Quote:
If the fetus (or sperm or ova) could give us their opinion, that opinion would be that they wouldn't give a shit.
If a baby, who is expected to come out of its mother tomorrow, could give us their opinion, that opinion would be that they wouldn't give a shit if we decided to kill it. It's easy to make up ridiculous decisions for something that is unable to communicate to us.

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#33  
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(28-Nov-2008 at 03:14)


Re: Should Abortion be illegal?

Originally Posted by Greeney: View Post
Yet, if the (lack of a) lady
nice personal attack you are clueless on the morality of anyone I've ever dated but to degrade me and show I'm immoral you pull out the bracketed (lack of a), thus putting me in the light of subhuman and you on a higher moral ground then me ..... muhahahahahahaa funny.

Originally Posted by Greeney: View Post
you got pregnant decided not to have an abortion,
I would have stood by her decision it is her body I do not have any rights at all on making the decision on what she can and can not do with her her body or the future that she will create for the next 15 odd years by having a child.

Originally Posted by Greeney: View Post
you would have pretended that the day that child was born was the greatest day of your life as well.
ahh nice personal attack again that's all you can do your arguments have all ways been full of holes and nit picking you've never been able to create a true argument, the day my daughters where born and the feeling it created inside of me when I live in Australia and you live in Canada is absolutely impossible for you to know ..... but keep trying to fling the mud

Originally Posted by Greeney: View Post
Very believable.
...... oooh yeh and I totally care about what you think ..... LOL

Originally Posted by Greeney: View Post
Do your daughters know they wouldn't be here if they decided to come out of your dick at a less convenient time?
totally when they are old enough my children will be educated on the rights they have about their own body's and not to allow a simple minded cretin such as your self from forcing them into a decision that will have life changing impacts.
If in the future I have boys they also will be educated on the right way to look at life that they do not own a women because they stuck their dick into her .... they are not the masters of that persons destiny because they got her pregnant ..... that the final decision is her's to make it is her body that will be carring the child and feeding it until birth it is her who will put aside her life, her social life ..... her education ..... to support and raise the child for the next 15+ years ......
They as males can get girls pregant but that dick does'nt give them the rights to be lord and master .....


Originally Posted by Greeney: View Post
Shouldn't be a problem for them to know if there's nothing at all wrong with it, right?
Boom backfire its better to get to know the person before saying something like that ........ as I said above they will be educated on their rights that they have control over their own body's and not to allow some idiot to force them into something that is life changing.



Originally Posted by Greeney: View Post
Because cavemen were very anti-abortion?
no caveman where poorly educated ....


Originally Posted by Greeney: View Post
I do believe that even they, as a whole, had more morals than killing their own children though.
LOL you think so ?
Nice fantasy world you live in ....... are you a creationist ?

Your saying that the Victorian age invention of morals was something that cavemen would have followed ... and not basic human hunter gatherer need of base survival ?

That the strong surivie and the weak die ...........


Yeh right ................ LOL

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#34  
View Public Profile Find more posts by HarleyQuinnROX Add HarleyQuinnROX to your Buddy List Reply with Quote
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(28-Nov-2008 at 03:43)


Quote:
It's a matter of ending an existence that you're supposed to care for.
Why though? Why do I HAVE to give up my life that I planned for to raise a child that I don't want?

Quote:
What makes me most uncomfortable is that so many of these babies are killed simply because abortion is legal and (I feel) socially encouraged.
That is an odd statement... Obviously more abortions will occur if it is legal, but to claim that they occur just because they are allowed to is absolutely ridiculous... and you have yet to provide one example of abortion being socially encouraged.

Quote:
And you are basically saying that someone who is wealthy has more of a responsibility to take care of their child than someone who isn't
Not more of a responsibility, I am saying they are more likely to be able to. My point was someone very poor is not able to raise a child, and you are effectively saying they shouldn't be allowed to have sex.

Quote:
or else that neither of them should have to deal with responsibility.
If there is something that they should be responsible for, then fine, but you are just inventing a responsibility... There is nothing good coming from 'making' these people be responsible for a child that they don't want. It is just a bullshit self-serving argument.

Quote:
Speaking of bullshit arguments: "Because you didn't specify it as clearly as humanly possible means I can assume whatever I want about it" is amongst them.
No it isn't. If you refuse to explain your position clearly, I will argue against the position that you didn't intend to convey but did anyway because you are lazy.

Quote:
Why? I thought people here are doing everything possible to convince me (or themselves, more likely IMO) that there's nothing wrong with it?
Some are, but most (including me) are not... we are weighing the postiives with the negatives. The positives of having an abortion when you aren't ready to raise a child are: not ruining your life's plans, not raising a child that you resent, and in some cases not trying to raise a child in poverty who will then be put into the poverty cycle. The negative is you prevent a life from existing, but through a means that essentially has the same outcome as not conceiving in the first place since it has no CNS.

Nobody in their right mind would get an abortion without any feeling of guilt, but weighing up the two options, if you aren't ready to have a child, there is no point in having it.

Quote:
So if I believe someone is going to ruin my life, would you say I should legally be allowed to kill that person if I am sure I can do it without causing them any sort of pain?
That is a ridiculous comparison. A living human has a conscience and would - in general - like to keep existing. You also have no rights over them, because they do not depend on your body to live.

Quote:
If a baby, who is expected to come out of its mother tomorrow, could give us their opinion, that opinion would be that they wouldn't give a shit if we decided to kill it
No it wouldn't. The baby is aware of it's existence, and it is born with a survival instinct. Once it has conciousness, of course the baby would want to be born.

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#35  
View Public Profile Find more posts by Spectre19 Add Spectre19 to your Buddy List Reply with Quote
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(28-Nov-2008 at 04:11)


Re: Should Abortion be illegal?

Originally Posted by HarleyQuinnROX: View Post
nice personal attack
I respond to people based on how I feel they've spoken to me.

You expect me to respond to you in a respectful manner? Try doing it yourself first.
Otherwise, I don't really give a shit if you feel I've attacked you personally, take it to the mods or use your ignore list feature.


Quote:
I would have stood by her decision it is her body I do not have any rights at all on making the decision on what she can and can not do with her her body or the future that she will create for the next 15 odd years by having a child.
A big difference between us. If she kills our child after promising me she wouldn't, it will be the last time we have sex. Unlike you, I use my brain and heart more frequently than my penis.

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ahh nice personal attack again that's all you can do your arguments have all ways been full of holes and nit picking you've never been able to create a true argument
I really do wish I could make as brilliant arguments as "...... oooh yeh and I totally care about what you think ..... LOL"

Really? You're giving me a lecture on "true arguments?"
Have you ever read over any of the horseshit you tried to argue in AR?
I felt like I was getting dumber every time I read the crap you wrote until I looked at something else.

I make personal attacks against people when I feel they have tried to make personal attacks against me. Learn to use logic before pretending someone else doesn't as a last resort for an argument.

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the day my daughters where born and the feeling it created inside of me when I live in Australia and you live in Canada is absolutely impossible for you to know ..... but keep trying to fling the mud
So would you not have felt the same way regarding the three children you helped terminate? I know if they were born, you would be saying the exact same thing. I just find it very difficult to take your comment about it being the most important day of your life seriously, when you really don't care about a girl you get pregnant aborting her child.


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totally when they are old enough my children will be educated on the rights they have about their own body's and not to allow a simple minded cretin
"ahh nice personal attack again that's all you can do" blah blah blah
Figured out who I'm quoting?

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such as your self from forcing them into a decision that will have life changing impacts.
You fail to realize that they have made the decision of putting their self into that position.

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If in the future I have boys they also will be educated on the right way to look at life that they do not own a women because they stuck their dick into her .... they are not the masters of that persons destiny because they got her pregnant ..... that the final decision is her's to make it is her body that will be carring the child and feeding it until birth it is her who will put aside her life, her social life ..... her education ..... to support and raise the child for the next 15+ years ......
So, are you suggesting men don't put aside their social life or education to support or raise their child?

You know, it might actually be enough if you can just teach them to be more responsible than yourself.

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They as males can get girls pregant but that dick does'nt give them the rights to be lord and master .....
No, nor did I ever suggest it does. I think a guy is just as bad if he gets a girl pregnant and isn't sure that he's with someone who won't get an abortion.

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Boom backfire its better to get to know the person before saying something like that ........ as I said above they will be educated on their rights that they have control over their own body's and not to allow some idiot to force them into something that is life changing.
Hopefully they have more respect for themselves and their children than your wife or ex-girlfriend.

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no caveman where poorly educated ....
Displaying your education for all to see?


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That the strong surivie and the weak die ...........

Think about what you just said.
Did it hit you yet?
How about now?


---------------------------------------------------------------

Originally Posted by Spectre:
Why though? Why do I HAVE to give up my life that I planned for to raise a child that I don't want?
No, you don't have to.
I already stated that there are alternatives, did I not?

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Obviously more abortions will occur if it is legal, but to claim that they occur just because they are allowed to is absolutely ridiculous...
Your sentence contradicts itself.

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Not more of a responsibility, I am saying they are more likely to be able to. My point was someone very poor is not able to raise a child, and you are effectively saying they shouldn't be allowed to have sex.
My point was that having less money doesn't make it less immoral to go for an abortion.

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There is nothing good coming from 'making' these people be responsible for a child that they don't want. It is just a bullshit self-serving argument.
I'm pretty sure they would disagree with you after they had a child.
Like Hurlin, they would claim it was the most joyful day of their less fortunate life.

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No it isn't. If you refuse to explain your position clearly, I will argue against the position that you didn't intend to convey but did anyway because you are lazy.
Spectre, stop trying to dance around the fact that I wrote something down and you decided to twist it rather than ask me to confirm it. I did not refuse to explain anything, I would have been more than willing to say which I considered of more importance. It had nothing to do with laziness either, I did not expect any comment like the one you made to spring up, and if I had I would have stated so, but I didn't feel like I needed to explain something as basic that the situation of a mothers life or rape ought to take precedence.

Please refresh your memory by looking over what we are arguing about in regards to this.

I said:
"--It should be legal for any woman who is in a life threatening position
--It should be legal for any woman who claims to have been raped
--It should be legally limited to once"

You said:
...but I suppose you stitch it up here by ensuring they can't lie about being raped more than once... oh, except what about someone who gets impregnated through rape a second time? Tough shit, I guess...

Where, in what I stated, did you see an acceptable reason to assume that I was trying to stitch up anything?

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not ruining your life's plans, not raising a child that you resent, and in some cases not trying to raise a child in poverty who will then be put into the poverty cycle.
"I already stated that there are alternatives, did I not?"

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Nobody in their right mind would get an abortion without any feeling of guilt, but weighing up the two options, if you aren't ready to have a child, there is no point in having it.
I actually respect your opinion on it more than others here, but I still disagree with you. If you aren't ready for a child, there is no point in putting yourself in a position to have one just to get rid of it.

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That is a ridiculous comparison. A living human has a conscience and would - in general - like to keep existing. You also have no rights over them, because they do not depend on your body to live.
I'd imagine a baby would like to keep existing as well, in fact, I don't believe there is any entity in the world that would choose to refrain from existing. Let's say there is someone who depends on me to live? Do I now have the right to kill them in a way I deem painless?

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No it wouldn't. The baby is aware of it's existence, and it is born with a survival instinct. Once it has conciousness, of course the baby would want to be born.
So once it develops an 'instinct for survival' it becomes wrong to terminate it?

If all else fails, call someone a troll.
that can be fixed... /

Last edited by Greeney, 28-Nov-2008 at 04:21.
#36  
View Public Profile Find more posts by Greeney Add Greeney to your Buddy List Reply with Quote
Posts: 1921/1988
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(28-Nov-2008 at 05:02)


Re: Should Abortion be illegal?

This is simple: don't be judgmental about it. If you don't want to do it, that's fine, but you have no right to force your moral beliefs on others like that. It'd be different if it was clear when life actually started, but it's not (and there's definitely some time from the moment of conception), so just don't have an abortion yourself and allow others to make their own damn decisions. By outlawing it all you are going to do is increase unwanted children, which just are not taken care of properly and as a result turn out to be underachievers and even criminals, and you'll increase the rate of illegal abortions which are not only more expensive, but extremely hazardous, resulting in great risk to the mother.

"Why should I have to work for everything?! It's like saying I don't deserve it!" - Calvin.
#37  
View Public Profile Find more posts by Stewie Add Stewie to your Buddy List Reply with Quote
Posts: 1337/1971
(28-Nov-2008 at 06:00)


Quote:
No, you don't have to.
I already stated that there are alternatives, did I not?
Like what? Abandoning your child? Man, someone who does that definitely has the moral high ground over someone who aborts =\

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Your sentence contradicts itself.
No it doesn't. You are implying that people get abortions just because they can, and not because it is a huge burden.

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My point was that having less money doesn't make it less immoral to go for an abortion.
But that's got nothing to do with what I am saying, so I'm not sure why you are saying it.

Your position implies that if I am too poor to raise a child, then I should not be allowed to have sex. This is the point I am trying to make. Now lets see if you can address it this time instead of going off on a tangent again.

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I'm pretty sure they would disagree with you after they had a child.
Like Hurlin, they would claim it was the most joyful day of their less fortunate life.
Have some evidence to back it up? "Like Hurlin" doesn't count (not least of all because it isn't Hurlin...) because, as he isn't against abortion, it must be that the only reason he has children is because he got himself in a position where he was willing and able to raise them.

Now, OK, if the woman goes ahead and has her child, she is unlikely to abandon it, and is unlikely not to love it, but that doesn't mean it is a good decision, it doesn't mean the child will be brought up well, and it CERTAINLY is not an argument for forcing her to have the child.

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I actually respect your opinion on it more than others here, but I still disagree with you. If you aren't ready for a child, there is no point in putting yourself in a position to have one just to get rid of it.
I'll say it again - maybe having it twice in one post will make you address it.

What you are saying here is, "if you are too poor to support a child, or if your career doesn't allow you the time to raise a child, you should not be allowed to have sex".

How, Greeney, is this a reasonable position?

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I'd imagine a baby would like to keep existing as well, in fact, I don't believe there is any entity in the world that would choose to refrain from existing.
If it hasn't the capacity to think or feel, it wouldn't care. Do you think a rock would care whether it exists?

Yes, a fetus is more valuable than a rock, but it is not more concious, and it similarly would not care.

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Let's say there is someone who depends on me to live? Do I now have the right to kill them in a way I deem painless?
In what way do they depend on you to live? Specifics would improve the example and allow me to answer it.

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So once it develops an 'instinct for survival' it becomes wrong to terminate it?
I might not say it exactly that way, but it's not entirely absurd... it is more or less the same as saying "once it has a CNS it is wrong to terminate it" which I think is a fairly reasonable statement.

Tax collectors are a valid military target - chobham
#38  
View Public Profile Find more posts by Spectre19 Add Spectre19 to your Buddy List Reply with Quote
Posts: 2140/2297
(28-Nov-2008 at 16:42)


Re: Should Abortion be illegal?

Originally Posted by Stewie: View Post
This is simple: don't be judgmental about it. If you don't want to do it, that's fine, but you have no right to force your moral beliefs on others like that.
Isn't that a moral belief that you're forcing on me?

Modern world I'm not pleased to meet you

You just bring me down
#39  
View Public Profile Find more posts by Caelis666 Add Caelis666 to your Buddy List Reply with Quote
Posts: 532/742
(29-Nov-2008 at 16:29)


Re: Should Abortion be illegal?

Originally Posted by Caelis666: View Post
Both of us judge according to the standard of humanity, but for me this is no problem because I start from the unique value of humanity. You try to give everything value, in which case it becomes arbitrary to hierarchize it from our point of view. I don't need to use standards that I don't value.
Like i said, i agree on the unique value of humanity, i just feel that uniqueness can only be properly valued by understanding it in the context of the value of other lifeforms. It's not that i try to give everything value, i am instinctively convinced that every lifeform has value. So as much as i may philosophically try to contain value to humanity to emphasize our uniqueness (and yes there are decent arguments for that), it simply feels like a lie in every bone of my body. Because the second i'm confronted with a situation where i have to choose between killing a carrot or a kitten (or any other two different pre-human-moral 'lifeforms'), there is no room for rationalization; hierarchy simply presents itself, indisputably. If it is different for you, and you experience no value-difference whatsoever between carrot and kitten, then fine. If you do feel that cutting the limbs off a thousand monkeys is different in value than trimming a thousand trees, please explain to me how that fits within a valuesystem that ranks everything below humanity as equal?

As for "if everything has value than humanity having most value is arbitrary hierarchy", that rests on the mistaken belief that if life has intrinsic value, individual lifeforms can't also have specific value. My criteria for intrinsic value is being alive, my criteria for specific value is depth of consciousness. That model explains everything i experience, your model (as you've painted it so far) explains a bare minimum of it, and goes against much of the rest. What kind of a scientist would i be if i opted for the least-explanatory model of reality, just because somebody calls the more explanatory one naive and mystified?

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Also, evolutionary ethics is properly regarded as bad ethics. Why is every step on the way to human morality valuable in itself?
Every step in consciousness development is valuable, as it is life coming to better understand itself. Human morality is but the latest expression of that. You seemingly see human morality as an unexplainable artefact of a mechanistic world devoid of value, that to me is naivety, no offense.

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If you used the ladder to get up somewhere and you're not planning to go down again, you can toss the ladder away. The ladder doesn't have value in itself, it was simply a means to an end. Great that we needed so many evolutionary steps to get where we are, but now we are where we are, so there's no reason to value those steps in themselves.
A telling metaphor that sees humans as somehow having stepped off the ladder, as if we're not dependent on the rest of life for our continued existence. We haven't stepped off, we're merely standing at the top rung, and you can't just toss the former steps out without tossing parts of yourself out simultaneously. That's not fancy rhetoric, it's understanding of interdependence; just one tiny example of which is that if flowers ever became extinct, so would humans very soon.

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Third, accusing me of having a flat view of life is bad rhetorics. This is only true if you already accept your standards. From my point of view however you have a naive, mystified view of life that's undefendable on grounds other then pure aesthetics and a bad understanding of evolutionary theory.
That qualification of you having a flat view of life is dependent on your own stance that pre-human-moral life is all equal in value. If you agree that a blade of grass is equal in value to a pre-moral human with feelings, my accusation stands. If you don't hold that standard, i won't hold that accusation. My last question is simply a restatement of the rest of my post; i'm asking you to explain how you feel there's no difference in value between a blade of grass and a sentient, feeling being like a chimp? And next to hearing you explain it philosophically, i'd be even more interested in hearing you explain it practically.. Say when your future kids come home to tell to you they used a puppy for a football, and contrary to the coconut they used before, it bled, hurt and died.

Your brain is unique in the history of the universe. Use it wisely.
#40  
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