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(09-Jul-2004 at 06:00)


Proof and Human Understanding

Why do I see so many people demanding proof? Do you honestly think that just because we cannot prove something that it cannot exist? For thousands of years, people believed things based on faith and trust. They did not need proof to believe that their king passed a new law or that Rome was the biggest empire on the Earth during that time. They trusted. Not everything can be backed up with proof, but that doesn't make it any less likely. I go back to the argument I used a long time ago. You have no proof that I am not a figure of your imagination, but you trust that I truly am sitting behind a computer typing this.

Also, some things are beyond our comprehension. Wouldn't this universe kinda suck if we fully understood it, if there was no mystery or confusion. What would be the point of life? Things can exist that we don't understand. People say God can't be beyond our understanding and get mad when Christians use that as an answer for Christians, but why do you want us to explain something beyond words? We can't any more than you could if you believed. I'm sure you cannot express your love for your gf or wife, but I don't doubt it because you say it is beyond words. Have a little faith peole.

I know people are probably gonna tear me up for this and say all sorts of things that I can't beat, but I wanted to say it anyway.

I'm not ashamed of the One I love.
[Our dream] eluded us then, but that's no matter tomorrow we will run faster, stretch out our arms farther. And one fine morning...
Hail Jesus, You're my Lord.
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(Posted as RavEMasteR)
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(09-Jul-2004 at 06:43)


Not that you can't beat, but you miss the point. We are no longer the barbaric Romans who kill you if you do not believe in the king.

We have come such a long way to today's standards, and should we back down to the Roman's standards..., well, what is there left of science? Do you believe unicorns exist, and that mermaids are swimming under the sea? There's no proof, but yet, why do most people regard it as a fairy tale anyway? Think about it.

Religion is the mental disease of the masses.
"Once again, religion is like sniffing gasoline. Both cause permanant brain damage." -- Obsidian
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(09-Jul-2004 at 06:53)


The reason people demand proof is that many evangilistic Christians say that everyone should beleive based upon faith.

People who don't want to blindly follow something based soley on someone else's views, challange this. Why do you take offense to this challange? They are thinking for themselves, nothing wrong with that there is.

Can't....ignore...Christian....brainwashing....

Four legs good...satan bad....Four legs good...satan bad.

J/K ...don't mean to diss your religion either. Please try not to make light of other's as well.

Belili : Sexy :: Naz : Warning Points

Last edited by Belili, 09-Jul-2004 at 06:54.
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(09-Jul-2004 at 07:15)


As likely as it is there is a God, it is equally likely there isn't a God, if for no other reason that there is no concrete proof to back up either.

My problem lies not in whether or not a higher being exists, but the centuries of crimes of the Catholic Church. However, if someone simply believes in a higher being becuase it gives direction and purpose to their life, I completely respect that. It is no different (to quote Dan Brown) than a mathematician believing in the imaginary number i if it eases their life.

Once is happenstance. Twice is coincidence. Three times is enemy action
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(09-Jul-2004 at 13:43)


We need proof because we atheists feel we no longer need a "God did it" reason for everything. By finding out the mysteries of the Universe we make our lives easier - by using that knowledge to invent & construct objects.

To me - it is not just a lack of proof, but the whole concept of a benevelant God testing me day by day to see if I am up to scratch of a 'Good' person to give me a nice home when I die holds about as much water as the Tooth fairy. So that is why I don't believe. I also don't really believe in science - I can't bring myself to believe that this machine works by electrons moving about. What is important to realise though - is that it dosn't matter to me. The concepts are just that to me - thoughts - all I need to know is what I see, feel, hear & interact with, nothing else matters to me.

This is what every PvP argument boils down to:
Dear Devs:
Rock is overpowered, please nerf. Paper is fine.
Yours, Scissors
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(09-Jul-2004 at 15:22)


Quote:
(Originally posted by RavEMasteR)

Not that you can't beat, but you miss the point. We are no longer the barbaric Romans who kill you if you do not believe in the king.

We have come such a long way to today's standards, and should we back down to the Roman's standards..., well, what is there left of science? Do you believe unicorns exist, and that mermaids are swimming under the sea? There's no proof, but yet, why do most people regard it as a fairy tale anyway? Think about it.
it may not be the same. but very similar. i dont think society has really changed all that much. sure we might have a welfare state these days ensuring people are generally happier but we do kill other people if we 'dont believe in the king' aka... overthrowing governments because they dont agree with imperialist ideology. no we dont believe in unicorns, but most aethiests tend to acknowledge thers probably alien life, where no proof has yet been provided. so aliens have been substituted for aliens and unicorns IMHO. we have kept all the same old fears and phobias, and yes somethings science can't explain. How can things exist in absolute nothingness? how could a spark of energy erupt at the beginning of time when time has no beginning etc.

Where has my avatar gone?

The true meaning of silence
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(Posted as RavEMasteR)
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(09-Jul-2004 at 16:29)


Quote:
(Originally posted by Gus Mackay)

it may not be the same. but very similar. i dont think society has really changed all that much. sure we might have a welfare state these days ensuring people are generally happier but we do kill other people if we 'dont believe in the king' aka... overthrowing governments because they dont agree with imperialist ideology. no we dont believe in unicorns, but most aethiests tend to acknowledge thers probably alien life, where no proof has yet been provided. so aliens have been substituted for aliens and unicorns IMHO. we have kept all the same old fears and phobias, and yes somethings science can't explain. How can things exist in absolute nothingness? how could a spark of energy erupt at the beginning of time when time has no beginning etc.
Well, whether or not aliens exist nobody knows. However, the chances of them existing is way better than the chances of unicorns existing.

Besides, we have scoured every corner of this planet, and have yet to see a unicorn. However, we have yet to see the entire universe yet.

Religion is the mental disease of the masses.
"Once again, religion is like sniffing gasoline. Both cause permanant brain damage." -- Obsidian
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(09-Jul-2004 at 17:02)


Quote:
(Originally posted by RavEMasteR)
However, we have yet to see the entire universe yet.
Hehehehe, I'd say that is the understatement of the day

On topic, I agree with many of the replies so far, and RM's comment on the Romans was just what I was thinking.

I am not asking for proof. This whole matter is built up so that it is simply impossible to prove or disprove it. However, I feel that for me to actually believe this, some very convincing arguments should be brought up, and some proof should be laid forward to the claims. I am not asking for one solid proof that God exists, but within the belief there are alot that needs proving, like how believable the bible is, or if Jesus ever existed, among others.

For me, there are just to many points that go against the notion of a supreme being. I actually see no convincing "evidence", and at the same time I see alot of opposing "evidence". For one, why would the supreme being create us? How can he know everything we do/will do yet still claim we have free will? How can he allow all the "evil" in the world exist? Why would he treat his beloved children so?

Last, we are here for the debate's sake. No one's forcing you to prove anything to us. In the real world we just ask you not to impose your religion (like it's laws and traditions) on us, unless we agree to it, in which case you need to convince us.

My MSN is still [email protected].
My Skype is kapteindynetrekk
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(09-Jul-2004 at 18:51)


Quote:
(Originally posted by dothackRAVE)

Not that you can't beat, but you miss the point. We are no longer the barbaric Romans who kill you if you do not believe in the king.

We have come such a long way to today's standards, and should we back down to the Roman's standards..., well, what is there left of science? Do you believe unicorns exist, and that mermaids are swimming under the sea? There's no proof, but yet, why do most people regard it as a fairy tale anyway? Think about it.
Ok. Now I have another question. Let's ignore the fact that some of you say proof isn't as important as I thought. WHY do you need proof so much to believe. Please don't say I don't, because you can't prove something that doesn't exist or something that is not constructive like that.


Quote:
(Originally posted by Grashnak)
To me - it is not just a lack of proof, but the whole concept of a benevelant God testing me day by day to see if I am up to scratch of a 'Good' person to give me a nice home when I die holds about as much water as the Tooth fairy. So that is why I don't believe. I also don't really believe in science - I can't bring myself to believe that this machine works by electrons moving about. What is important to realise though - is that it dosn't matter to me. The concepts are just that to me - thoughts - all I need to know is what I see, feel, hear & interact with, nothing else matters to me.
Well shoot. God doesn't test us every day to see if we are enough of a good person. He tests us sometimes to see if we are truly devoted to Him. Scoring higher on those tests won't do anything except help your relationship with Him. There is one way to "gain points" for heaven, but I can't remember how right now.

Quote:
(Originally posted by Nimon)
I am not asking for proof. This whole matter is built up so that it is simply impossible to prove or disprove it. However, I feel that for me to actually believe this, some very convincing arguments should be brought up, and some proof should be laid forward to the claims. I am not asking for one solid proof that God exists, but within the belief there are alot that needs proving, like how believable the bible is, or if Jesus ever existed, among others.
Ok. So you're looking for proof of physical things, not actual proof of God. The Bible's believabilty cannot be proven IMO. You just do or don't (hopefully do). I seem to remember hearing that at least a few historians recorded some events of Jesus' life, but I may only be remembering one.

I'm not ashamed of the One I love.
[Our dream] eluded us then, but that's no matter tomorrow we will run faster, stretch out our arms farther. And one fine morning...
Hail Jesus, You're my Lord.
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(09-Jul-2004 at 19:38)


Quote:
(Originally posted by Victor1)

Ok. Now I have another question. Let's ignore the fact that some of you say proof isn't as important as I thought. WHY do you need proof so much to believe. Please don't say I don't, because you can't prove something that doesn't exist or something that is not constructive like that.
You want me to make an argument based on something I don't agree with - well why not. Proof - of course I need lots of proof - without proof I will be taken for a ride by all sorts of unscruplous people - car salesman, doouble glazing salesman, builders, car mechanics - the list goes on. Why should the faithful have it any easier with me ? After all who is to say which Bible is true ? I could write a Bible with subtly different words which change the whole meaning. Without proof that it was divinley inspired how are my descendants to know which is the true Bible ?

Quote:
Well shoot. God doesn't test us every day to see if we are enough of a good person. He tests us sometimes to see if we are truly devoted to Him. Scoring higher on those tests won't do anything except help your relationship with Him. There is one way to "gain points" for heaven, but I can't remember how right now.
The length of time periods between tests is just a detail to me - the point is it really dosn't matter to me. It has exactly zero impact on my daily life. Where we came from, why we are here & do I have a divine purpose simply do not ever trouble my mind. I have no need to find out. I simply don't care. It affects me as much as your tastes in suits - none at all.

This is what every PvP argument boils down to:
Dear Devs:
Rock is overpowered, please nerf. Paper is fine.
Yours, Scissors
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(09-Jul-2004 at 20:33)


Christianity is bunk, and in several hundred years will be looked back upon in the same manner we look back upon the Greek and Roman myths. Women was made from man's rib? Please.

Throughout history, the educated have almost always been the ones to question religion. It is not that I require solid proof of a God or an afterlife, that is irrelevant. On a side note, I feel there is actually quite a bit of evidence supporting an afterlife of some sort. Organized religion, however, is absolutely ridiculous. It's a twisted institution used as a tool to control and instill conformity in people. The Christian claim that they know their religion is true because they can feel Jesus' love or He gives them strength etc, doesn't seem all that different then the other religions who express this same claim in defense of their spirituality.

"People demand freedom of speech as a compensation for the freedom of thought which they seldom use."
-Soren Kierkegaard
"Those who know don't say, and those who say don't know."
- Lao Tzu
More Quotes...
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(09-Jul-2004 at 21:59)


Quote:
(Originally posted by Grashnak)

You want me to make an argument based on something I don't agree with - well why not. Proof - of course I need lots of proof - without proof I will be taken for a ride by all sorts of unscruplous people - car salesman, doouble glazing salesman, builders, car mechanics - the list goes on. Why should the faithful have it any easier with me ? After all who is to say which Bible is true ? I could write a Bible with subtly different words which change the whole meaning. Without proof that it was divinley inspired how are my descendants to know which is the true Bible ?
So you never trust car salesmen ever? There's not one salesperson you would trust? How can you not trust builders (I assume you are refering to building a house, etc.) who know more about their craft than you? I'm not saying you can't look around, but to demand say a list of supplies, prices, and cost of man power is a little over the top wouldn't you say.

I'm not saying you trust somethin because it looks better to you. I'm saying trust it based on convictions and what you learn about it by spending time studying it. Now I don't mean studying it to see what is wrong with it, I mean studying to see what it can teach you. I bet some people would be amazed if they stopped reading the Bible to prove it wrong and just read what it had to say.

Quote:
The length of time periods between tests is just a detail to me - the point is it really dosn't matter to me. It has exactly zero impact on my daily life. Where we came from, why we are here & do I have a divine purpose simply do not ever trouble my mind. I have no need to find out. I simply don't care. It affects me as much as your tastes in suits - none at all.
So you don't care that a few decisions made during your short time on earth could affect you for eternity? I'm gonna mess with myself for sayin this, but how can there not be a tomorrow? How can you not have something to do, even if it is just exist? What happens when your time is up when you die? You feel nothing? That would be a sucky existence if you ask me.

Quote:
(Originally posted by Grashnak)

Throughout history, the educated have almost always been the ones to question religion.
Maybe that's because the educated are often the arrogant and cannot accept that they are not the "alpha dog".

Quote:
It is not that I require solid proof of a God or an afterlife, that is irrelevant.
That's why I asked for people to assume they did, and I just assumed that they would not respond if this does not apply to them. Thanks for your input anyway.

Quote:
On a side note, I feel there is actually quite a bit of evidence supporting an afterlife of some sort. Organized religion, however, is absolutely ridiculous. It's a twisted institution used as a tool to control and instill conformity in people. The Christian claim that they know their religion is true because they can feel Jesus' love or He gives them strength etc, doesn't seem all that different then the other religions who express this same claim in defense of their spirituality.
So any group of people that thinks they are right are a "twisted instituion used as a tool to control and instil conformity in people." I am working on the assumption that people who think they are right typically try to convince others that they are right and that they should agree with them.

Christianity on the surface is not that different from other religions. Some of the biggest differences are that our God lives and works in our lives directly.

I'm not ashamed of the One I love.
[Our dream] eluded us then, but that's no matter tomorrow we will run faster, stretch out our arms farther. And one fine morning...
Hail Jesus, You're my Lord.
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(09-Jul-2004 at 22:14)


Quote:
(Originally posted by Victor1)
Maybe that's because the educated are often the arrogant and cannot accept that they are not the "alpha dog".
And then again, maybe it's because the educated are just that, educated, so they see through the lies and half-truths.

My MSN is still [email protected].
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(09-Jul-2004 at 22:33)


Quote:
(Originally posted by Nimon)

And then again, maybe it's because the educated are just that, educated, so they see through the lies and half-truths.
This kinda works both ways I know, but oh well. The other educated people who don't "see through the lies and half-truths", what about them? Why don't they see through the lies and half-truths? Maybe because its actually the whole truth, others are just to proud to admit that they don't have as much power as they'd like to think.

I'm not ashamed of the One I love.
[Our dream] eluded us then, but that's no matter tomorrow we will run faster, stretch out our arms farther. And one fine morning...
Hail Jesus, You're my Lord.
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(09-Jul-2004 at 23:47)


Quote:
(Originally posted by Victor1)

So you never trust car salesmen ever?
I take it you havn't brought a used car...

Quote:
There's not one salesperson you would trust? How can you not trust builders (I assume you are refering to building a house, etc.) who know more about their craft than you? I'm not saying you can't look around, but to demand say a list of supplies, prices, and cost of man power is a little over the top wouldn't you say.
I take it you have not had to have repairs done to your house... Of course there must be honest builders & car salesman (notorious at least in this country for this dishonesty), but that is not the point I was making. I was saying that it is important to qustion what people tell you because it would be plain foolishness to trust everything people tell you. I need evidence I can verify for myself to convince me of a change in my thoughts.

"A short trip through the lunatic asylum shows that faith means nothing"

Quote:
I'm not saying you trust somethin because it looks better to you. I'm saying trust it based on convictions and what you learn about it by spending time studying it. Now I don't mean studying it to see what is wrong with it, I mean studying to see what it can teach you. I bet some people would be amazed if they stopped reading the Bible to prove it wrong and just read what it had to say.
Who says I havn't studied the Bible in earnest ? Look at my previous threads/posts on the religous discussions board - I hope that they show I have a reasonable understanding of the Bible & what it teaches. I have also studied other works of faith. In fact here in my home I have copies of the Bible, Quran, Satanic Bible - even a copy of the Necromonicon. I have also read other works of faith.

Quote:
So you don't care that a few decisions made during your short time on earth could affect you for eternity? I'm gonna mess with myself for sayin this, but how can there not be a tomorrow? How can you not have something to do, even if it is just exist? What happens when your time is up when you die? You feel nothing? That would be a sucky existence if you ask me.
I understand what you say - it is an argument I have seen many of the faithful tell me. But I am sure God would know when the time came that if I believed it would just purely lip service. When I die, I have no doubt I will just stop. I will be no more - except to be worm food. This makes me free. I know that the time I have is the only time I have. there will be no more time. Whatever I do - I must do now, or maybe not at all. There is no guarantee that I will still be alive at the end of the month, this makes time precious but I do not need to prepare for an afterlife. I do what I want, when I want. I do not feel bound to a God I cannot hope to comprehend.

When I was agnostic (for a very short time before I became athiest) I realised that if God had a specfic purpose for me, then he would tell me since he knew I would do exactly as I have done (as far as belief goes).

Quote:
Maybe that's because the educated are often the arrogant and cannot accept that they are not the "alpha dog".
Hey ! I didn't say this !! (You are responding to a quote I didnlt write..)

This is what every PvP argument boils down to:
Dear Devs:
Rock is overpowered, please nerf. Paper is fine.
Yours, Scissors

Last edited by Grashnak, 09-Jul-2004 at 23:49.
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(10-Jul-2004 at 01:40)


Quote:
(Originally posted by Grashnak)

I take it you havn't brought a used car...
Nope, I haven't. Not old enough to own a car and I don't pay that much attention when my rents buy them.

Quote:
I was saying that it is important to qustion what people tell you because it would be plain foolishness to trust everything people tell you. I need evidence I can verify for myself to convince me of a change in my thoughts.
Like I said, its ok to question things, but its a little over the top IMO to demand proof to believe.

Quote:
"A short trip through the lunatic asylum shows that faith means nothing"
Faith can mean nothing, faith can mean everything. It all depends on what you put your faith in.

Quote:
Who says I havn't studied the Bible in earnest ? Look at my previous threads/posts on the religous discussions board - I hope that they show I have a reasonable understanding of the Bible & what it teaches. I have also studied other works of faith. In fact here in my home I have copies of the Bible, Quran, Satanic Bible - even a copy of the Necromonicon. I have also read other works of faith.
Again, have you studied to learn from it or to "know your enemy" better? I find it hard to believe that you have seriously considered the Bible and the Satanic Bible unless you went through a HUGE change in your life.


Quote:
I understand what you say - it is an argument I have seen many of the faithful tell me. But I am sure God would know when the time came that if I believed it would just purely lip service. When I die, I have no doubt I will just stop. I will be no more - except to be worm food. This makes me free. I know that the time I have is the only time I have. there will be no more time. Whatever I do - I must do now, or maybe not at all. There is no guarantee that I will still be alive at the end of the month, this makes time precious but I do not need to prepare for an afterlife. I do what I want, when I want. I do not feel bound to a God I cannot hope to comprehend.
So why not make it more than lip service? What do you have to lose? Some immoral fun? A few corrupt friends? Not that I'm saying you have either of those, but what will you honestly lose in Christianity that isn't immoral or just bad for you?

Quote:
When I was agnostic (for a very short time before I became athiest) I realised that if God had a specfic purpose for me, then he would tell me since he knew I would do exactly as I have done (as far as belief goes).
So you want God to give you the test before He has even shown you the subject of it? That's all life is. God tries to teach us things, and His purpose is a test of sorts. Not that if we fail His purpose we cannot make it into heaven, but we learn how to before He reveals it to us.

Quote:
Hey ! I didn't say this !! (You are responding to a quote I didnlt write..)
Sorry. I forgot to put that it was a quote from someone else.

I'm not ashamed of the One I love.
[Our dream] eluded us then, but that's no matter tomorrow we will run faster, stretch out our arms farther. And one fine morning...
Hail Jesus, You're my Lord.
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(10-Jul-2004 at 02:17)


Quote:
Like I said, its ok to question things, but its a little over the top IMO to demand proof to believe.
What the hell man? Did you even read what you wrote? That's contrary to all scientific belief. Mankind hasn't gotten anywhere buy accepting thigns without question. How do you think we learend about the world and, a for example, got away from believeing the sun didn't set because Apollo drove his chariot across the sky?

I can see it now: 'Proof? Hell no, I prefer to trust on the basis of speculation alone.'

Once is happenstance. Twice is coincidence. Three times is enemy action

Last edited by freecorp, 10-Jul-2004 at 02:21.
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(10-Jul-2004 at 02:42)


I hope you get the point of this.

Quote:
(Originally posted by freecorp)

What the hell man? Did you even read what you wrote? That's contrary to all scientific belief. Mankind hasn't gotten anywhere buy accepting thigns without question. How do you think we learend about the world and, a for example, got away from believeing the sun didn't set because Apollo drove his chariot across the sky?

I can see it now: 'Proof? Hell no, I prefer to trust on the basis of speculation alone.'
I would listen to what you say, but you don't exist. I can't just trust that you exist. Give me proof, and I'll consider what you say.

I'm not ashamed of the One I love.
[Our dream] eluded us then, but that's no matter tomorrow we will run faster, stretch out our arms farther. And one fine morning...
Hail Jesus, You're my Lord.
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(10-Jul-2004 at 02:44)


Fine, give me your address and I'll write you a letter. Or if you live close enough, I'll stop by your house.

Once is happenstance. Twice is coincidence. Three times is enemy action
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(10-Jul-2004 at 02:46)


Quote:
(Originally posted by freecorp)

Fine, give me your address and I'll write you a letter. Or if you live close enough, I'll stop by your house.
I would, but I'm gonna need you to prove that you won't abuse that information first.

I'm not ashamed of the One I love.
[Our dream] eluded us then, but that's no matter tomorrow we will run faster, stretch out our arms farther. And one fine morning...
Hail Jesus, You're my Lord.
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