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Posts: 6956/7006
(24-Jan-2012 at 07:58)


Tax cuts for wealthy Americans?

A wonderful argument against the right-wing 'tax cuts for the rich' nonsense. Earn 42.5 million and pay only 13.9%? Somebody tell me how that is fair when people on a fraction of the income are paying 35%. Somebody tell me why these people should have there tax rate cut, at public expense.


http://http://www.reuters.com/articl...tent=Google+UK

"Patriotism is the last refuge of a scoundrel." But let it be considered that he did not mean a real and generous love of our country, but that pretended patriotism which so many, in all ages and countries, have made a cloak of self- interest.

Last edited by Voice of Reason, 24-Jan-2012 at 08:06.
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Posts: 6957/7006
(24-Jan-2012 at 08:10)


That link seems to broken and the idiotic ten - minute rule got me.

Here is another link: http://http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/018...#axzz1kMSBUb2c

"Patriotism is the last refuge of a scoundrel." But let it be considered that he did not mean a real and generous love of our country, but that pretended patriotism which so many, in all ages and countries, have made a cloak of self- interest.
#2  
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Posts: 6958/7006
(24-Jan-2012 at 08:48)


Third time lucky...

Romney's tax.

"Patriotism is the last refuge of a scoundrel." But let it be considered that he did not mean a real and generous love of our country, but that pretended patriotism which so many, in all ages and countries, have made a cloak of self- interest.
#3  
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Posts: 2820/2825
(24-Jan-2012 at 19:16)


Tax cuts for the wealthy do make sense. However it should not be for ALL wealthy people. It should be only for the wealthy who actually create jobs and stimulate the economy of their own country. This is something I could support. However tax cuts for all wealthy people? Seems just like a way to encourage even more mindless greed

The very powerful and the very stupid have one thing in common; they don't alter their views to fit the facts, they alter the facts to fit the views
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Posts: 6959/7006
(24-Jan-2012 at 23:23)


Nobody 'creates' jobs. They either have enough staff to handle the workload, or they don't.

If they have enough staff, they are not going to hire (and pay) people they don't need just because you cut taxes. If they did that they would soon go out of business. If they don't have enough staff, they are not going to refuse to employ staff just because they think their tax is too high. If they did that, they too would go out of business.

In other words, the only thing that 'creates' jobs is demand, and tax is simply not a factor in the decision.

"Patriotism is the last refuge of a scoundrel." But let it be considered that he did not mean a real and generous love of our country, but that pretended patriotism which so many, in all ages and countries, have made a cloak of self- interest.
#5  
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Posts: 1564/1637
(25-Jan-2012 at 05:56)
Re: Tax cuts for wealthy Americans?

Originally Posted by Voice of Reason: View Post
Earn 42.5 million and pay only 13.9%? Somebody tell me how that is fair when people on a fraction of the income are paying 35%. Somebody tell me why these people should have there tax rate cut, at public expense.
The more numorous underlings in society are at a greater expense to public funds, therefore it stands to reason that they should pay a tax rate that reflects this increases expense.

It would be less fair if the wealthy had to fork out an equal proportion of their income when they do not drain public funds in equal proportion.

A tax system, by default, already favors the poorer tiers of society, since no matter how much tax a poor person is charged, it is likely they will experience a net gain in the use of public services over their life time which far exceeds what they could otherwise experience with their wage alone.

Last edited by Gotterdammerung, 25-Jan-2012 at 06:03.
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Posts: 6960/7006
(25-Jan-2012 at 11:49)


If the rich refuse to pay there fair share, *they* are the burden on society because they have to be subsidised by the rest of the tax payers. Alternatively, the government borrows to make up the shortfall and incurs interest payments.

Your logic is screwed up anyway. The rich cost as much to defend as anybody else. They cost the same to police. Their house fires cost as much to put out, and they use the same roads.

... and I seem to remember a hell of a lot of taxpayers money being thrown at them to bail out their failed businesses...

You have been reading too many right-wing blogs.

"Patriotism is the last refuge of a scoundrel." But let it be considered that he did not mean a real and generous love of our country, but that pretended patriotism which so many, in all ages and countries, have made a cloak of self- interest.
#7  
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Posts: 1565/1637
(25-Jan-2012 at 20:55)
Re: Tax cuts for wealthy Americans?

Originally Posted by Voice of Reason: View Post
rich cost as much to defend as anybody else. They cost the same to police. Their house fires cost as much to put out, and they use the same roads.
Exactly my point.

Rich people pay more tax per capita for exactly the same service.

Quote:
You have been reading too many right-wing blogs.
This is also true.
#8  
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Posts: 6961/7006
(25-Jan-2012 at 23:25)


Tax, like interest, is per dollar. Not per capita. Your argument amounts to 'tax isn't fair because it is tax.'

As things stand at the moment, the rich in the USA are not only contributing a smaller portion of their income, but they also have a political party (of wealthy people...) campaigning for them to contribute even less!

"Patriotism is the last refuge of a scoundrel." But let it be considered that he did not mean a real and generous love of our country, but that pretended patriotism which so many, in all ages and countries, have made a cloak of self- interest.
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Posts: 3818/3861
(26-Jan-2012 at 03:17)


Re: Tax cuts for wealthy Americans?

Originally Posted by Gotterdammerung: View Post
Exactly my point.

Rich people pay more tax per capita for exactly the same service.

Actually the rich pay more per capita in federal and state for less services.

If a poor person needs emergency medical care or die they get it the rich need to pay for it. How many cops are there in Hollywood compared to North Philly?

Never Forget

September 11, 2001
#10  
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Posts: 7006
(26-Jan-2012 at 11:17)


Quote:
Actually the rich pay more per capita in federal and state for less services.
'per capita' is a dumb argument, used by dumb people, who are unable to explain how the rich contributing a lower percentage of the income is fair, so they try to distract attention away from that fact.

It doesn't work. Tax is, always has been, and always will be per dollar. That too is a fact, and normal people know it.


Quote:
How many cops are there in Hollywood compared to North Philly?
Ever heard of 'cars'?

"Patriotism is the last refuge of a scoundrel." But let it be considered that he did not mean a real and generous love of our country, but that pretended patriotism which so many, in all ages and countries, have made a cloak of self- interest.
#11  
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Posts: 3819/3861
(26-Jan-2012 at 16:11)


Re: Tax cuts for wealthy Americans?

Originally Posted by Voice of Reason: View Post
'per capita' is a dumb argument, used by dumb people, who are unable to explain how the rich contributing a lower percentage of the income is fair, so they try to distract attention away from that fact.
Then its very fair if its about dollars.
newt paid what 3 -4 million in taxes (~30% tax rate) last year while I paid 1K in taxes (~2% tax rate).

That seems more then fair to me.

Never Forget

September 11, 2001
#12  
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Posts: 3980/3983
(26-Jan-2012 at 20:03)


Quote:
It would be less fair if the wealthy had to fork out an equal proportion of their income when they do not drain public funds in equal proportion.
Who says life is fair?

Quote:
A tax system, by default, already favors the poorer tiers of society, since no matter how much tax a poor person is charged, it is likely they will experience a net gain in the use of public services over their life time which far exceeds what they could otherwise experience with their wage alone.
It also favors the wealthy, for the cost of a little support to the middle and lower classes, you mollify and lessen dissent towards those that are using their labor and public infrastructure to maintain and increase their wealth. It is part of the mind set of people: "far better to keep the services we have than to cause trouble and have them disappear".

“The law, in its majestic equality, forbids the rich as well as the poor to sleep under bridges, to beg in the streets, and to steal bread.”
#13  
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Posts: 1566/1637
(26-Jan-2012 at 21:30)
Re: Tax cuts for wealthy Americans?

Originally Posted by Voice of Reason: View Post
'per capita' is a dumb argument, used by dumb people, who are unable to explain how the rich contributing a lower percentage of the income is fair, so they try to distract attention away from that fact.
Since when is percentage more fair than flat rate? That's just socialist mentality.

How are you able to explain why some people pay more for the same public services than others?

Quote:
It doesn't work. Tax is, always has been, and always will be per dollar. That too is a fact, and normal people know it.
So? Tax is a levy. There is no reason why you cannot structure it however you want.

[...]

Originally Posted by filcher: View Post
It also favors the wealthy, for the cost of a little support to the middle and lower classes, you mollify and lessen dissent towards those that are using their labor and public infrastructure to maintain and increase their wealth. It is part of the mind set of people: "far better to keep the services we have than to cause trouble and have them disappear".
I didn't realise this forum was full of Marxists.

Last edited by Gotterdammerung, 26-Jan-2012 at 21:35.
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Posts: 6963/7006
(27-Jan-2012 at 00:53)


When there is a flat rate of income, then sending a bill for public services will be fair. In the real world, where incomes are unequal, a percentage is fair.

As you are still pushing this silly 'per capita' argument, explain how Mr A giving nearly all his income to the government while Mr B gives hardly any is fair. How does that work, exactly?

"Patriotism is the last refuge of a scoundrel." But let it be considered that he did not mean a real and generous love of our country, but that pretended patriotism which so many, in all ages and countries, have made a cloak of self- interest.
#15  
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Posts: 1567/1637
(27-Jan-2012 at 04:53)
Re: Tax cuts for wealthy Americans?

So when you pay your rent or eat out, should you charged according to your wage relative to others?

No, of course not. So then why should the charge for public services be any different?
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Posts: 6964/7006
(27-Jan-2012 at 06:25)


Do I really have to explain the difference between a purchasing a commodity and paying tax? Really?

I don't mind doing it if you insist, but you will make yourself look very foolish...

"Patriotism is the last refuge of a scoundrel." But let it be considered that he did not mean a real and generous love of our country, but that pretended patriotism which so many, in all ages and countries, have made a cloak of self- interest.
#17  
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Posts: 1568/1637
(27-Jan-2012 at 10:13)
Money is money. The taxes that you pay are going to be spent on goods and services in exactly the same manner as the money you might collect over the dinner table to pay for your friends' meals at a restaurant. I don't understand how the service provided by the state is any different to any other service you could pay for, or how collecting tax somehow merits that contribution be measured relative to wage when nothing else in the economy is treated in such a way.

All I want to know is why tax has to be collected by wage percentage.
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Posts: 6965/7006
(27-Jan-2012 at 11:27)


Quote:
The taxes that you pay are going to be spent on goods and services in exactly the same manner as the money you might collect over the dinner table to pay for your friends' meals at a restaurant.
So I do have to explain it...

1) Tax is not a purchase. It is paying into a fund which spent by other people. You do not own anything after paying tax. There is no commodity.
2) Tax has no individual choice. You cannot choose not to pay tax this week because you are a bit hard up, or choose a cheaper military to protect you.
3) The fund you pay into is spent for the benefit of the entire state, not any individual.


Quote:
All I want to know is why tax has to be collected by wage percentage.
Already explained....

"When there is a flat rate of income, then sending a bill for public services will be fair. In the real world, where incomes are unequal, a percentage is fair."

I see that you have dodged the related question: "...explain how Mr A giving nearly all his income to the government while Mr B gives hardly any is fair. How does that work, exactly?"

"Patriotism is the last refuge of a scoundrel." But let it be considered that he did not mean a real and generous love of our country, but that pretended patriotism which so many, in all ages and countries, have made a cloak of self- interest.

Last edited by Voice of Reason, 27-Jan-2012 at 11:36.
#19  
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Posts: 3981/3983
(27-Jan-2012 at 17:39)


Re: Tax cuts for wealthy Americans?

Originally Posted by Gotterdammerung: View Post
So when you pay your rent or eat out, should you charged according to your wage relative to others?

No, of course not. So then why should the charge for public services be any different?
you are wrong on this. The charges for using some public commodities do not change based on income; riding the bus for example. The difference is that these are services that can be charged by use. Whether rich or poor all pay the same to ride public transit.

Quote:
I didn't realise this forum was full of Marxists.
I don't think marxist as much as conspiracy theorist

Seriously though, it is more economical to provide base services to the common people than to have them rise up in rebellion like Russia did in 1917.

“The law, in its majestic equality, forbids the rich as well as the poor to sleep under bridges, to beg in the streets, and to steal bread.”
#20  
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