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(Posted as Geck)
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(26-Jan-2006 at 16:54)


Palestinian elections.

Obvioulsy you couldn't have missed it as it's all over the news.

http://edition.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/me...ion/index.html

Hamas is expected to have won the elections with (non-official) estimates of 75 of 132 seats in parliament. Fatah leaders already resigned form government posts and announced they will not be part of a coalition of national unity with Hamas. Erekat (former Palestinian Authority negotiator with IsraŽl) commented they will be in the opposition.


Now the Bush administration has had 2 (among other) major points they were supporting over the last years which now appear to pose a dilemma.
1) They have fought the war on terrorism, they don't negotiate with terrorists and ofcource Hamas has been classified as a terrorist organization.
2) They have been getting "democracy on the move".

Now the lastest move by democracy is bringing the terrorist organization Hamas into power in the middle east.


Now this seems to me like a mojor dilemma for Bush and his associates as they will have to make consessions on one of the above mentioned parts of they're policy Which will it be?

Personally I think they'll make an exception on the not negotiating with terrorists rule. The Palestinian people elected Hamas egardless of they're motivations. :S

Last edited by Geck, 26-Jan-2006 at 17:00.
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(26-Jan-2006 at 17:02)
I think everything will be more or less frozen in place until the Israeli election due soon. At the moment Hamas wouldn't have anyone to negotiate with anyway. Given how USA could provide weapons training for PLO when they needed security forces at the same time as USA officially labelled PLO a terrorist organization I see no fundamental reason they can't negotiate with Hamas, but I think USA will want to wait and see the Israeli reaction first.
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(26-Jan-2006 at 17:53)


Re: Palestinian elections.

Originally Posted by Geck:
Personally I think they'll make an exception on the not negotiating with terrorists rule. The Palestinian people elected Hamas regardless of they're motivations. :S
I don't think there will be negotiations with Hamas until they renounce terrorism.

Take note of the below quote... it's just about the only thing the guy has ever said that I could possibly 100% agree with:

Quote:
"Hamas is a terrorist organization, which means they believe it is their right to murder women, children and innocent civilians to achieve their goals," said Sen. Charles Schumer, D-N.Y. "It is unrealistic, unwise and even immoral to ask Israel to sit down with a government that contains people who have such beliefs. No other country would, why should Israel?"

Man is the only animal that blushes, or needs to.-- Mark Twain
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(26-Jan-2006 at 18:05)


Well, it is right to kill 10s of thousands of people in the name of freedom...

Just as Micheal1.

And that is essentially what Hamas is fighting for. Freedom from having Jews as neighbors...

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(26-Jan-2006 at 18:06)
Re: Palestinian elections.

Originally Posted by Michael1:
I don't think there will be negotiations with Hamas until they renounce terrorism
I thought you approved of consensual governments. More accounatbility and all that.

And Hamas has actually had a cease fire with Israel for a time now, and has shown tendencies of moderation even before the election. Whether or not this continues is likely to depend on Israel. If one of the parties that deny the right of a Palestinan state wins in Israel, why should Hamas recognize Israel?
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(26-Jan-2006 at 18:10)
Until Hamas stops to use violence as a way to reach their goal and officially accepts Israel no country will accept the rule under Hamas.

But just like with sinn fein or any other terrorists/freedom fighters everything can change.
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(26-Jan-2006 at 20:08)


Re: Palestinian elections.

Originally Posted by Zelun:
And that is essentially what Hamas is fighting for. Freedom from having Jews as neighbors...
Intentionally targeting innocent civilians is not warfare, it's terrorism. If after all that has happened in this conflict you have not resolved that peace between the two parties can only be secured by two states living side-by-side, and that neither group will succeed by attempting to eliminate the other, then there is nothing to discuss.

Originally Posted by Bernel:
I thought you approved of consensual governments. More accounatbility and all that.
Where did I say I didn't in that statement? Just because you believe non-consensual governments are the equal of consensual ones doesn't mean I believe that all consensual governments should always be treated equal and held in high esteem. Free and open elections, representation, a free and vibrant press -- these are all important aspects of a consensual government ... they usually don't exist one day and then the next become institutional pillars. Heck ... over in Venezuela it seems Chavez was 'elected', but that doesn't mean he has to be liked or even treated in the same manner as Chirac, for instance. Simply having an election doesn't instantly qualify a country as a responsible member of the international community. Palestine isn't even a country yet...

Quote:
And Hamas has actually had a cease fire with Israel for a time now, and has shown tendencies of moderation even before the election. Whether or not this continues is likely to depend on Israel. If one of the parties that deny the right of a Palestinan state wins in Israel, why should Hamas recognize Israel?
Again, I said that I believe in two states. If the Israeli policy becomes one that advocates the erradication of the Palestinians, that too would be unacceptable. We know what Hamas' goals have been. If they don't repudiate terrorism and disavow the elimination of Israel, you can't really blame just Israel, can you?

Man is the only animal that blushes, or needs to.-- Mark Twain
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(26-Jan-2006 at 20:43)


"What will the reaction of the Bush administration be?"

My best guess is that they will stay quiet for a while. This is a quagmire that I expect the administration will try to stay out of for at least the next few days until we get the full reaction from Israel (and the rest of the world, for that matter).

The real question, in my opinion, is "What will happen when another suicide bombing occurs in the middle of an Israeli market and the bombers claim to be acting on behalf of Hamas?" Does that count as a deliberate act of war? Can the U.S. government NOT respond to such an action with force?

"I feel like I'm Han Solo, and you're Chewie, and she's Ben Kenobi, and we're in that fucked-up bar." - My sentiments exactly.

~~~

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(26-Jan-2006 at 21:11)


Well, didn't Hamas just declared today that fight against Israel will continue?? Well, I think as long Hamas is in Palestinian government and makes declaration against Israel and Jewish, there will be no peace in Middle-East. Even if Jewish would give entire Jerusalem to Palestinians it would not be enough... It is never enough when you deal extremists...

Generalization is rhetorics of simpletons.
"Sages learn from history... idiots learn from experience" -Fairy Tail manga
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(26-Jan-2006 at 21:32)


Re: Palestinian elections.

Originally Posted by Zelun:
Well, it is right to kill 10s of thousands of people in the name of freedom...

Just as Micheal1.

And that is essentially what Hamas is fighting for. Freedom from having Jews as neighbors...

I don't know how bad your neighbours are, but you should be able to live with them in the same neighbourhood without having to kill them. Israel is not doing anything wrong (having extremely loud parties, for example) and as long as they are not doing anything wrong they should not be punished just for being Jewish.

"Why should I have to work for everything?! It's like saying I don't deserve it!" - Calvin.
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(26-Jan-2006 at 22:08)


Re: Palestinian elections.

Originally Posted by Stewie:
they should not be punished just for being Jewish.
I agree with you. But unfortunately history of world has shown, peoples don't need more reasons than that to start killing peoples. It's been so for past 2000 years more or less. First it was romans killing jewish, then it was christians, then came nazi's and now extremist islamistic zealots.

Well, I am usually quite positive about changes, but not in this case. As long Hamas is on Palestinian government and ruling with majority, If Hamas and Jihad could get their way, it would mean slaughtering all jewish, men women and children without mercy. Perhaps that was bit exaggirated but I really do not see easy way for jewish to live peace with palestinians, not as long Palestinians support extremist organizations. As long Jewish occupy Palestine, there is no peace easily but nobody is complaining that Palestinians are occupying Judea... (Judea was old name of palestine. Romans renamed Judea ((land of the jewish) into Philistea ((Land of the philisteans)) after jewish revolt. ) JMHO.

Generalization is rhetorics of simpletons.
"Sages learn from history... idiots learn from experience" -Fairy Tail manga
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(26-Jan-2006 at 22:41)
Re: Palestinian elections.

Originally Posted by Stewie:
I don't know how bad your neighbours are, but you should be able to live with them in the same neighbourhood without having to kill them. Israel is not doing anything wrong (having extremely loud parties, for example) and as long as they are not doing anything wrong they should not be punished just for being Jewish.
So how about taking Palestinian land? Using torture on prisoners, or keeping them locked up for years without any trial? Blowing up houses of civilians just because they had a relative who is a terrorist, or because they one day happen to be too close to an Israeli settlement that is in itself illegal? Imposing random cerfews for days at a time so that people can't get food or water? Don't pretend that Israel is an innocent part in this conflict, and some of their parties are just as extreme as Hamas.

From the Likud election platform in 1999:
"Settlements

The Jewish communities in Judea, Samaria and Gaza are the realization of
Zionist values. Settlement of the land is a clear expression of the
unassailable right of the Jewish people to the Land of Israel and
constitutes an important asset in the defense of the vital interests of the
State of Israel. The Likud will continue to strengthen and develop these
communities and will prevent their uprooting.

The Government of Israel flatly rejects the establishment of a Palestinian
Arab state west of the Jordan river. "

And Likud is a lot more moderate than some of the smaller, religious parties.
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(26-Jan-2006 at 22:51)


Re: Palestinian elections.

Originally Posted by Bernel:
So how about taking Palestinian land? Using torture on prisoners, or keeping them locked up for years without any trial? Blowing up houses of civilians just because they had a relative who is a terrorist, or because they one day happen to be too close to an Israeli settlement that is in itself illegal? Imposing random cerfews for days at a time so that people can't get food or water? Don't pretend that Israel is an innocent part in this conflict, and some of their parties are just as extreme as Hamas.
Translation:

So how about rejecting the UN partition? Using torture on prisoners such as tickling them all the way to prison, or keeping terrorists who have just soaked their hands in blood locked up for years without any trial? Blowing up houses of civilians just because they had a relative who is a terrorist or because they one day happen to fire Kassams at an Israeli settlement that is in itself perfectly legal? Imposing random cerfews for days at a time so that people can't restock on weapons and ammunition? Don't pretend that the Palestinians are an innocent part in this conflict, and all of their parties are just as extreme as Hamas.

Last edited by aC23, 26-Jan-2006 at 22:51.
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(26-Jan-2006 at 22:57)


Re: Palestinian elections.

Originally Posted by aC23:
Translation:
Don't pretend that the Palestinians are an innocent part in this conflict, and all of their parties are just as extreme as Hamas.
Well, generalization is also problem of the area, all the palestinians or all the jewish... Not all palestinians want war with Israel but they want peace and stability and same goes to palestinian parties. Some parties actually try to make peace and improve situation but as long there are parties like Hamas around its very unlike to succeed easily and fast...

Generalization is rhetorics of simpletons.
"Sages learn from history... idiots learn from experience" -Fairy Tail manga
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(26-Jan-2006 at 23:03)


Re: Palestinian elections.

Originally Posted by Lord Menchalior:
Well, generalization is also problem of the area, all the palestinians or all the jewish... Not all palestinians want war with Israel but they want peace and stability and same goes to palestinian parties. Some parties actually try to make peace and improve situation but as long there are parties like Hamas around its very unlike to succeed easily and fast...
My bad, I was referring to the ruling Palestinian parties (i.e Fatah and now Hamas)
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(26-Jan-2006 at 23:11)
Re: Palestinian elections.

Originally Posted by aC23:
Translation:

So how about rejecting the UN partition? Using torture on prisoners such as tickling them all the way to prison, or keeping terrorists who have just soaked their hands in blood locked up for years without any trial? Blowing up houses of civilians just because they had a relative who is a terrorist or because they one day happen to fire Kassams at an Israeli settlement that is in itself perfectly legal? Imposing random cerfews for days at a time so that people can't restock on weapons and ammunition? Don't pretend that the Palestinians are an innocent part in this conflict, and all of their parties are just as extreme as Hamas.
1. The Palestinians never got much of a chance to say anything about the partition since Israel and Jordan immediately did their own partitioning of what was intended to be the Palestinian state. Obviously Israel didn't have much respect for it back then either.
2. If they were "blood soaked terrorists" they would be given a trial and a long sentence in Israel. The people locked up without a trial are the ones Israel just suspect to be militants.
3. That "or" is dishonest. Not even the Israelis deny that they have an official policy of blowing up houses for no other reason than that a relative was a terrorist. As the settlements are illegal under international law and part of the occupation I consider them military targets. firing missiles into the recognized part of Israel I see as a crime, however.
4. And if lots of people starve just so Israel maybe can stop a few terrorists, so be it? Is that how cops work where you live too?
5. I didn't claim the Palestinians were innocent. I do claim they have much better reason to be angry, though.
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(26-Jan-2006 at 23:23)


Re: Palestinian elections.

Originally Posted by Bernel:
5. I didn't claim the Palestinians were innocent. I do claim they have much better reason to be angry, though.
And jewish do not have good reasons? 2000 years of massacres, just because they were jewish... Nobody cared about palestinians, until jewish finally got their own country, then and then only peoples started to notice bit by palestinians. Didn't some genetic research said that palestinians are mostly off springs of Turkish invaders, than actual peoples of that area? Of course I cannot fully trust that statement since I cannot remember where I did read that article about palestinian genealogy...

And when Jewish get their own land, they have to fight British off first and then all surrounding arab nations attack against Israel. And after that, Israel has been target various terrorist attacks, aggressive military campaings that simple goal was to annihilate nation of Israel. Nothing else.

Now Israel is willing to give some land to Palestinains to call their own. But do palestinians accept that and form their own country? If Hamas is on government: No, they spend all development money, ment for civilians in order to buy weapons and material against Israel. West has given billions of dollars to Palestinians to built their cities, yet they mostly live in camps. Because corrupted politicians have taken most money to themselves and west could have not given less what palestinians did with money.

I don't see bright future for palestinians as of now. Hamas would mean sooner or later open all out war against Israel, that would mean destruction of final hopes of palestinians own country.

Now the future still lies on palms of palestinians. Not Hamas yet. But as soon Hamas gets power, new era of violence and blood will begin...

Generalization is rhetorics of simpletons.
"Sages learn from history... idiots learn from experience" -Fairy Tail manga
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(Posted as Geck)
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(26-Jan-2006 at 23:48)


Quote:
Intentionally targeting innocent civilians is not warfare, it's terrorism.
How is that Israel which has a military is 'good' because the army kills the enemy fighting for it's land and people, but when the Palestinians (without army) fight for they're land and people are 'bad'.

What should they do to defend they're country(men) then? They have no choice as they have no army IMHO. How much of a chance do you think they have of making a point by running they're bomb-belts into a Israeli military bas? ON=nly thing that'll do is make the Israeli's laugh they're *sses off.
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(Posted as Yummie)
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(27-Jan-2006 at 00:11)


Re: Palestinian elections.

Originally Posted by Lord Menchalior:
Well, didn't Hamas just declared today that fight against Israel will continue??
If that happens and they are a ruling party would that be considered an act of war and couldnt Israel react accordingly?

Never Forget

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(27-Jan-2006 at 00:13)
Quote:
Personally I think they'll make an exception on the not negotiating with terrorists rule.
They always do. Didnt Israel said it wouldnt negotiate with PLO? *gg*. The longer Israel waits to get into peace with its neighbours the worser it gets for them. Best seen in the fact that it was Sharon the big General who pulled out of Gaza. If such a hardliner thinks it had to be done then there must be some truth behind my words.

Quote:
Not all palestinians want war with Israel but they want peace and stability and same goes to palestinian parties.
Actually the majority of the people want peace, yet the majority voted for Hamas? What does that means to you? Maybe that they think Hamas is the only to achieve peace?

Quote:
succeed easily and fast...
Thats what Israel would like, quite Palestinians but thats not the case. Its interesting you think that without the extremist groups it would be easier. Yes, indeed for the Isrealis it would be easier to annect the whole land.

Quote:
And jewish do not have good reasons? 2000 years of massacres, just because they were jewish...
What has that to do with the Palestinians suffering for that now? If they are angry, then they should please put the Europeans in a ghetto, not the Palestines.

Quote:
Didn't some genetic research said that palestinians are mostly off springs of Turkish invaders, than actual peoples of that area? Of course I cannot fully trust that statement since I cannot remember where I did read that article about palestinian genealogy...
lol ... ridiculous. You mean because they might not be 100% arabs they dont deserve property in Palestina? laughable nonsence.

Quote:
And when Jewish get their own land, they have to fight British off first and then all surrounding arab nations attack against Israel. And after that, Israel has been target various terrorist attacks, aggressive military campaings that simple goal was to annihilate nation of Israel. Nothing else.
lol laughable nonsence again. You say generalisation is a big problem of that area then you generalise and simplicate the matter youself in big scale


Quote:
I don't see bright future for palestinians as of now. Hamas would mean sooner or later open all out war against Israel, that would mean destruction of final hopes of palestinians own country.
The suppressor always looses. In this case only Israel can loose because Israel has everything and there they are the ones that can only loose. I see a brighter future, first Gaza then Westjordanland

Quote:
But as soon Hamas gets power, new era of violence and blood will begin...
Bernel said it before and ill repeat it, Hamas is holding a ceasefire with Israel for some time now and nothing showed me they would break it now which would be pretty dumb move of them. Which argument other than blind hatred for the Palestines do you have for your claim?

Quote:
I agree with you. But unfortunately history of world has shown, peoples don't need more reasons than that to start killing peoples. It's been so for past 2000 years more or less. First it was romans killing jewish, then it was christians, then came nazi's and now extremist islamistic zealots.
You are freaking egocentric, a "littlebit" self loving not? People have been killing people for more than just 2k years lol. It started with Adams sons and it will keep being after the mid-east problem is solved. Besides there have been bigger massacres on ethnic races in history. The turks from central asia have been hit harder during Lenin/Stalin era. Stop making the Jews to be the poorest people on earth, it sucks.


However, Israel and the west are in a big dilemma, not just the US. They promote deomocracy and then if they dont like the outcome of the votes they start crying and scolding. The west just doesnt gets is that they must deal the world with respect. Yes, the west lacks in respect for the world. Thats the major problem.
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