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Posts: 96/144
(04-Jul-2003 at 06:08)


Quote:
I think it's lovely, don't you? Do you really really believe that you could be sin-less? As in never having done ANYTHING wrong in your life? That's the only way to 'work' yourself into heaven.

There is another road though, the only one that's available to us. It's called 'free salvation', and the whole concept is based on GRACE. Our sins are forgiven because they've been paid for by Jesus' sacrifice on the cross. Not because of anything WE'VE done.

In God's eyes, the child molester, the constant adulterer, the Sunday Christian, and Mother Teresa are all one and the same, they've ALL sinned and can't go to heaven. But because God loves us, He provided a way to heaven, and that way is Jesus Christ. Jesus died for ALL our sins, and that's the only way to wipe our sins out, doesn't matter how many or how few those sins are.
So, you're saying that a Child molester is the same as Mother Teresa? I think not. Mother Teresa lived her life helping people and dedicated her entire life to the God she believed in, so that God is going to put her into the same group as Child Molesters and murders and such? What's the point of following the rules of your God if he's going to let anyone into heaven as long as they do certian things.

Another thing that no Christian has been able to answer. How is it that a Child Molester or Murderer can go to heaven by asking for forgiveness and accepting Jesus for his savior, but then a baby who dies not long after birth goes to hell because they don't know that they have to ask for forgiveness or that they have to accept Jesus as their savior. Now, how can this happen, because according to the bible you have to ask for forgiveness for your sins and accept Jesus as your Savior to go to Heaven. And what 'sin' could that child have commited? Again, according to your Bible, everyone is born a sinner.

Just because a Religion is different from yours doesn't make it wrong, no matter what you or your Bible may say.

Fight the Fear
Freedom of Religion means ALL Religions
Proud member of the Wiccan Religion
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(04-Jul-2003 at 07:04)


Quote:
(Originally posted by Kallie)

So, you're saying that a Child molester is the same as Mother Teresa? I think not. Mother Teresa lived her life helping people and dedicated her entire life to the God she believed in, so that God is going to put her into the same group as Child Molesters and murders and such? What's the point of following the rules of your God if he's going to let anyone into heaven as long as they do certian things.

Another thing that no Christian has been able to answer. How is it that a Child Molester or Murderer can go to heaven by asking for forgiveness and accepting Jesus for his savior, but then a baby who dies not long after birth goes to hell because they don't know that they have to ask for forgiveness or that they have to accept Jesus as their savior. Now, how can this happen, because according to the bible you have to ask for forgiveness for your sins and accept Jesus as your Savior to go to Heaven. And what 'sin' could that child have commited? Again, according to your Bible, everyone is born a sinner.

Just because a Religion is different from yours doesn't make it wrong, no matter what you or your Bible may say.

Actualy Mother Teresa was quite a bitch most of the time and probably even a criminal(altough no evidence have been found yet).So comparing with a child molester isn't that wrong.And yeah i always wondered about the whole accepting jesus crap as well.Thats just so damn stupid.Even if you are a good man you are going to hell just because you don't accept to follow jesus
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(04-Jul-2003 at 11:31)
when you say 'a good man', that is by our human standards. indeed that person WILL go to hell without asking forgiveness.

murderers and good people both in the kingdom of heaven together if they both ask forgiveness? thats the question i derived from that material. i can give some sort of an answer based on my interpretation.

everyone, has the possibility and chance of going to heaven, no matter what you have done (except suicide, that is THE cardinal sin, there is no redemption for suicide).

HOWEVER

those who truly believe in their hearts, that god is the creator of the universe, jesus was the saviour for us all and died for us and ask forgiveness for our sins, and uphold to the teaching of god and embrace it, then there is no problem. people who have these characteristics, however, are lot less likely to murder, rape, etc, becoz they know it is wrong, and do not want to sin against god if they can avoid it (although it is inevitable that we all do sin).

there are alot who believe in god, and in jesus, but there a very few who actually EMBRACE it, and there is a huge difference between the two. i hope my faith in him stregthens as i get older, and that i dont change face, ever ever ever ever ever ever ever,
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(04-Jul-2003 at 22:14)


Quote:
(Originally posted by Kallie)

So, you're saying that a Child molester is the same as Mother Teresa? I think not. Mother Teresa lived her life helping people and dedicated her entire life to the God she believed in, so that God is going to put her into the same group as Child Molesters and murders and such? What's the point of following the rules of your God if he's going to let anyone into heaven as long as they do certian things.

Another thing that no Christian has been able to answer. How is it that a Child Molester or Murderer can go to heaven by asking for forgiveness and accepting Jesus for his savior, but then a baby who dies not long after birth goes to hell because they don't know that they have to ask for forgiveness or that they have to accept Jesus as their savior. Now, how can this happen, because according to the bible you have to ask for forgiveness for your sins and accept Jesus as your Savior to go to Heaven. And what 'sin' could that child have commited? Again, according to your Bible, everyone is born a sinner.

Just because a Religion is different from yours doesn't make it wrong, no matter what you or your Bible may say.
I'm pretty sure it is written that any one who can't really "think" gets a get out of hell free pass or at lest that is how it plays out in revelation so yeh... sorry for lack of a better answer

militant Liberal Christian..funny string of words I got there
"when life gives you Lemons eat them whole..Peal and all"
-the great Ipoc
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(05-Jul-2003 at 03:51)


Quote:
(Originally posted by Kallie)

So, you're saying that a Child molester is the same as Mother Teresa? I think not. Mother Teresa lived her life helping people and dedicated her entire life to the God she believed in, so that God is going to put her into the same group as Child Molesters and murders and such? What's the point of following the rules of your God if he's going to let anyone into heaven as long as they do certian things.
yes, they are the same, and I'm the same too. REAL equality, as I like to call it.

My point was that whatever their actions were, each of them had sinned. Mother Teresa is called a saint by the catholic church, but she still sinned, everybody has. Think of sin as a black mark on your record book. The child molester's book might be pitch black on all the pages, mother teresa's book might have a few black scribbles on page 24, but none of their books are totally white, which is the requisite of entering heaven BY YOUR OWN MERIT.

The only other way is by getting the book wiped, and that only happens when you accept Jesus' sacrifice for you and surrendur your life to Him. Tada, clean book.

It's not as unfair as it seems on first glance. Take a university final exam for example. Lets assume the invigilators can see EVERYTHING going on (playing God). The student who just glanced over to see the answer to one simple question, compared to the student who blatantly picked up another students answer book and copied the whole thing. Who would fail? Both of course. Rules are rules, no matter how badly you broke them.

Quote:
Another thing that no Christian has been able to answer. How is it that a Child Molester or Murderer can go to heaven by asking for forgiveness and accepting Jesus for his savior, but then a baby who dies not long after birth goes to hell because they don't know that they have to ask for forgiveness or that they have to accept Jesus as their savior. Now, how can this happen, because according to the bible you have to ask for forgiveness for your sins and accept Jesus as your Savior to go to Heaven. And what 'sin' could that child have commited? Again, according to your Bible, everyone is born a sinner.
Some believe there to be an age of accountability below which you get a 'free pass' into heaven. The bible doesn't speak about such things so we don't know.

Quote:
Just because a Religion is different from yours doesn't make it wrong, no matter what you or your Bible may say.
Actually, if my religion is right, if my bible is true, than it EXCLUDES other religions. We're not buddhists who believe in the unity of all things. Christianity, just like judaism (and Islam I think) is an exclusive religion. Exclusive not in the sense that we prevent ppl from going to heaven or force them to pay the church or anything. Exclusive because unless anyone believes in the message we preach (which is simply that Christ died for their sins) he gets a one-way ticket in the opposite direction from heaven.

That's putting it bluntly. Of course I might be wrong, all OTHER religions might be right while mine is wrong (note that if any other religion in the world is true, Christianity must be false). I've decided on my faith, though.


This thread is for stating why I believe my religion to be the right one. I have done so, several times over, but somehow ppl keep coming in and saying stuff like
Quote:
Oh wow, its written in the bible, a peice of FICTION
Fine, that's your belief. It might make me a worse Christian, but frankly I don't care whether or not you agree with me. The bible tells me to tell of the Good News written therein, and that's what I do.


P.S. If I'm free after the weekend I might bother posting why I belief the Bible itself to be true. Then again maybe not.

-Part of the UT Christian Community
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(07-Jul-2003 at 07:44)


The whole suicide thing is another thing I disagree with in the Christian Religion. How is it that you can kill several other people, but still go to Heaven, yet, if you kill yourself, you automatically go to Hell? Isn't killing other people worse? I mean, I don't agree with suicide, but it's thier life, where as if you kill someone else they had no choice in it. It just doesn't make sense.

As for the sin part, you didn't answer my question. What sin could an infant have commited? What could that baby have done wrong in the whole few hours it was alive? Is being born now a sin? And don't give me the whole "everyone is born a sinner" stuff. I want to know exactly what sin an infant could have commited in it's short life that would make it deserve to go to hell.

Fight the Fear
Freedom of Religion means ALL Religions
Proud member of the Wiccan Religion
#26  
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(07-Jul-2003 at 07:55)


Quote:
(Originally posted by Kallie)

The whole suicide thing is another thing I disagree with in the Christian Religion. How is it that you can kill several other people, but still go to Heaven, yet, if you kill yourself, you automatically go to Hell? Isn't killing other people worse? I mean, I don't agree with suicide, but it's thier life, where as if you kill someone else they had no choice in it. It just doesn't make sense.
actually, killing other people means you'll automatically go to Hell, if you die doing it.

The whole point of Christianity is that you have to repent of your sins in order to accept forgiveness for them.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think any suiciders (RL not Utopia) have any chance of repenting of that sin. Murderers on the other hand have time to repent, if they come to their senses about what they've done.

It's not to say that suicide is a worst sin than murder, it's just that that sin has immediate implications assuming you succeed.

Quote:
As for the sin part, you didn't answer my question. What sin could an infant have commited? What could that baby have done wrong in the whole few hours it was alive? Is being born now a sin? And don't give me the whole "everyone is born a sinner" stuff. I want to know exactly what sin an infant could have commited in it's short life that would make it deserve to go to hell.
I'm confused. Read what you've said :-

Is being born now a sin? And don't give me the whole "everyone is born a sinner" stuff.

What exactly are you trying to say? You ask me if being born is a sin. Technically, although the act of being born isn't a sin, everyone who's born is a sinner.

Now I know that that particular bit of Christian teaching won't have any impact on you, so I'll explain a bit more. This world we live in is 'polluted' with sin. It's not heaven, so it's not perfect. Ever since the first man and woman sinned by disobeying God, there's never been a baby born that does not bear that burden of sin. Evidence of it is all around you. Death, the result of sin, is the over-ruling aspect of our entire world. The baby gets born and immediately starts to die, BECAUSE of the sin that pervades the world, and also the baby.

It's not a SPECIFIC sin that the infant has committed, it's GENERAL sin, that which all of us are guilty of from birth. That being said, I don't know what happens to infant deaths, but I don't think they go to hell.

-Part of the UT Christian Community
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(07-Jul-2003 at 08:10)


Well, neither one of us are going to give in on this one. I am the type of person that doesn't believe that a child should be punished for something thier parents did. That child didn't commit the sin themselves, so why should it be punished for it?

It's the same thing as hating a child because of who it's related to, that child can't help who it's family is. Just like we can't help what Adam and Eve did. Plain and Simple. Each person should be judged for what they did, not for something that someone else did.

Fight the Fear
Freedom of Religion means ALL Religions
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(07-Jul-2003 at 14:19)


Quote:
(Originally posted by Kallie)

Well, neither one of us are going to give in on this one. I am the type of person that doesn't believe that a child should be punished for something thier parents did. That child didn't commit the sin themselves, so why should it be punished for it?

It's the same thing as hating a child because of who it's related to, that child can't help who it's family is. Just like we can't help what Adam and Eve did. Plain and Simple. Each person should be judged for what they did, not for something that someone else did.
If it helps, I don't believe a child should be punished for what their parents did either. Not my rules though.

And as far as I can tell, my post did not in any way refer to the child suffering for the parent's sins, I thought I had made it clear that it was an issue of general sin, of mankind, not something transmitted from parent to child, more like to the whole of mankind.

-Part of the UT Christian Community
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(07-Jul-2003 at 14:59)


Quote:
(Originally posted by Ketam)

If it helps, I don't believe a child should be punished for what their parents did either. Not my rules though.

And as far as I can tell, my post did not in any way refer to the child suffering for the parent's sins, I thought I had made it clear that it was an issue of general sin, of mankind, not something transmitted from parent to child, more like to the whole of mankind.

It really doesnt matter either way.. what shes saying is children are too innocent to commit an actual sin when they are babies, so they shouldn't be punished for sins they didnt commit.

-For those who fight all over the world.. fight for peace, fight for freedom, and fight for their lives..
Will someone please give Bush a BJ already so we can start the Impeachment?
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(07-Jul-2003 at 18:45)


Quote:
those who truly believe in their hearts, that god is the creator of the universe, jesus was the saviour for us all and died for us and ask forgiveness for our sins, and uphold to the teaching of god and embrace it, then there is no problem. people who have these characteristics, however, are lot less likely to murder, rape, etc, becoz they know it is wrong, and do not want to sin against god if they can avoid it (although it is inevitable that we all do sin).
The bible (at least the old testament) states that even more important than the relation between god and human, is the relation between human and human.
According to that philosophy, a man that is good, leads a moral and ethical life, will be recieved in heaven

Quote:
Now I know that that particular bit of Christian teaching won't have any impact on you, so I'll explain a bit more. This world we live in is 'polluted' with sin. It's not heaven, so it's not perfect. Ever since the first man and woman sinned by disobeying God, there's never been a baby born that does not bear that burden of sin. Evidence of it is all around you. Death, the result of sin, is the over-ruling aspect of our entire world. The baby gets born and immediately starts to die, BECAUSE of the sin that pervades the world, and also the baby.
regardless of his faith.

So basically you're saying that you can be a sinner without sinning? You can be judged for actions not your own and not in your power? That doesn't make much sense to me.

Quote:
It's not as unfair as it seems on first glance. Take a university final exam for example. Lets assume the invigilators can see EVERYTHING going on (playing God). The student who just glanced over to see the answer to one simple question, compared to the student who blatantly picked up another students answer book and copied the whole thing. Who would fail? Both of course. Rules are rules, no matter how badly you broke them.
Of course it matters.
Why does the murderer spend more years in jail than a robber?
#31  
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(07-Jul-2003 at 19:22)


Quote:
(Originally posted by ReMaRQaBLe)

those who truly believe in their hearts, that god is the creator of the universe, jesus was the saviour for us all and died for us and ask forgiveness for our sins, and uphold to the teaching of god and embrace it, then there is no problem. people who have these characteristics, however, are lot less likely to murder, rape, etc, becoz they know it is wrong, and do not want to sin against god if they can avoid it (although it is inevitable that we all do sin).
Why are they less likely to do it? People who simply believe that you ought to be a good person, chistian or otherwise, will avoid doing it because thy believe it is wrong.
People with the beliefs you mentioned, (ie. murderers, rapists etc. who believe they can be forgiven for confessing on their deathbed), will surely just feel free to do wrong things, knowing that there will be no lasting penalty if the confess to their sins.

Ignorance, the root and the stem of every evil - Plato
Philosophy is questions that may never be answered. Religion is answers that may never be questioned.
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(Posted as jh211988)
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(07-Jul-2003 at 19:28)


Quote:
(Originally posted by reetard)

Why are they less likely to do it? People who simply believe that you ought to be a good person, chistian or otherwise, will avoid doing it because thy believe it is wrong.
People with the beliefs you mentioned, (ie. murderers, rapists etc. who believe they can be forgiven for confessing on their deathbed), will surely just feel free to do wrong things, knowing that there will be no lasting penalty if the confess to their sins.
Well, to all of the people who think they can sin all they want and can repent on their deathbed:

What if you die this very second???

What if Jesus returns tomorrow???

Repent now!

Religion is the mental disease of the masses.
"Once again, religion is like sniffing gasoline. Both cause permanant brain damage." -- Obsidian
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(08-Jul-2003 at 03:09)


Quote:
What if you die this very second???
I don't think thats gonna happen but if it does, oh well... he'll just come back in another life.

Quote:
What if Jesus returns tomorrow???
It not gonna happen so don't count on it.

If you haven't noticed that I'm Buddhist, if not well there ya go. Why must you rely on a series of books written thousands of years ago for a religion. For all I know, some guy might have been inspired by some mythology and wrote a scifi novel to imiate the mythology he read... some people like fans may have formed a fan club and all of a sudden it blew out of porportion and people started to worship this book and the characters in it.

BTW Isn't it heirsy to worship a pagan idol for Christians or is that just Muslims.

My life is a Grand illusion
Don't let it end, baby we could have had so much more...
Call me Vash the Stampede...

Last edited by VASHtheTyPhOoN, 08-Jul-2003 at 03:10.
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(Posted as dravid)
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(08-Jul-2003 at 04:29)
Quote:
(Originally posted by muirgein)

It really doesnt matter either way.. what shes saying is children are too innocent to commit an actual sin when they are babies, so they shouldn't be punished for sins they didnt commit.
and what the bible says is that no one is born 'innocent', we are all born sinners. it has nothing to do with something being passed on by your parents. we aren't inners because we inherit it from our parents, we are sinners because we are born with a sinful nature.

and babies are no one, let alone babies, are punished for sins they don't commit.
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(08-Jul-2003 at 05:18)


Quote:
(Originally posted by dravid)

and what the bible says is that no one is born 'innocent', we are all born sinners. it has nothing to do with something being passed on by your parents. we aren't inners because we inherit it from our parents, we are sinners because we are born with a sinful nature.

and babies are no one, let alone babies, are punished for sins they don't commit.
A baby doesn't have a sinful nature until it's taught to be that way. Babies are innocent, they have done nothing wrong and I seriously doubt that a baby is thinking "Okay, what sin should I commit today?". You will never convince me that a baby or a young child isn't innocent. I just don't understand how anyone can believe that a baby is a sinner.

And the point I was trying to make with the "a child shouldn't be punished for it's parents' mistakes" is this: According to the Bible everyone is related to Adam and Eve, this means that an infant born today is being punished for the sins commited by thier Ancestors, that isn't right. If a child's parents commit murder, does that make the child guilty of that murder as well? No, it doesn't. So, why should a child be guilty for the sins of people in the past?

Fight the Fear
Freedom of Religion means ALL Religions
Proud member of the Wiccan Religion
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(Posted as jh211988)
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(08-Jul-2003 at 07:40)


Quote:
(Originally posted by VASHtheTyPhOoN)

I don't think thats gonna happen but if it does, oh well... he'll just come back in another life.



It not gonna happen so don't count on it.

If you haven't noticed that I'm Buddhist, if not well there ya go. Why must you rely on a series of books written thousands of years ago for a religion. For all I know, some guy might have been inspired by some mythology and wrote a scifi novel to imiate the mythology he read... some people like fans may have formed a fan club and all of a sudden it blew out of porportion and people started to worship this book and the characters in it.

BTW Isn't it heirsy to worship a pagan idol for Christians or is that just Muslims.
I ain't posting that for you.

I'm posting it for so-called Christians who think they can sin continuously and finally ask for forgiveness in their deathbed.

You can go follow Buddha all you want. For it's Jesus and I follow Him till the end. He SHALL return, whether you like it or not.

Religion is the mental disease of the masses.
"Once again, religion is like sniffing gasoline. Both cause permanant brain damage." -- Obsidian
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(08-Jul-2003 at 08:06)


Quote:
(Originally posted by Kallie)

A baby doesn't have a sinful nature until it's taught to be that way. Babies are innocent, they have done nothing wrong and I seriously doubt that a baby is thinking "Okay, what sin should I commit today?". You will never convince me that a baby or a young child isn't innocent. I just don't understand how anyone can believe that a baby is a sinner.

And the point I was trying to make with the "a child shouldn't be punished for it's parents' mistakes" is this: According to the Bible everyone is related to Adam and Eve, this means that an infant born today is being punished for the sins commited by thier Ancestors, that isn't right. If a child's parents commit murder, does that make the child guilty of that murder as well? No, it doesn't. So, why should a child be guilty for the sins of people in the past?
Not for the actual sins commited, but for the sinful nature as dravid explained.

A baby is born, even if the baby had perfect parents and a perfect environment things like lying would come NATURALLY to the baby. NOBODY teaches kids to lie, it just comes naturally. Morals have to be taught, nagged, bludgeoned, into a kid's mind, but immorality is second nature to us. Any of you had a kid brother or young baby in the family? Lying seems to be the RESULT of talking, just to get out of some trouble lying automatically happens.

We're ALL of sinful nature, no exception. As I said several times already in this thread, and will say again, the baby isn't being punished for the sins of his/her parents (heck, I'm not even sure if the baby is punished at all), but for the fact that he/she is human and therefore sinful by nature.

-Part of the UT Christian Community
#38  
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(08-Jul-2003 at 14:18)


Quote:
(Originally posted by Ketam)

A baby is born, even if the baby had perfect parents and a perfect environment things like lying would come NATURALLY to the baby. NOBODY teaches kids to lie, it just comes naturally. Morals have to be taught, nagged, bludgeoned, into a kid's mind, but immorality is second nature to us. Any of you had a kid brother or young baby in the family? Lying seems to be the RESULT of talking, just to get out of some trouble lying automatically happens.
Not when they are babies. A four year old does not lie, but an 8 year old does, because they recognise that it saves them from getting in trouble.. so that isnt even a sin, thats survival.
A baby doesn't lie, cheat or steal from anyone. I agree with Kallie on this, there is no way you could convince me otherwise unless God himself came down from the sky and told me so, and even then I'd think he was pulling a joke.

-For those who fight all over the world.. fight for peace, fight for freedom, and fight for their lives..
Will someone please give Bush a BJ already so we can start the Impeachment?
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(08-Jul-2003 at 15:06)


Quote:
(Originally posted by muirgein)

Not when they are babies. A four year old does not lie, but an 8 year old does, because they recognise that it saves them from getting in trouble.. so that isnt even a sin, thats survival.
A baby doesn't lie, cheat or steal from anyone. I agree with Kallie on this, there is no way you could convince me otherwise unless God himself came down from the sky and told me so, and even then I'd think he was pulling a joke.
my point isn't in the COMMITAL of the sin. Obviously a 2 yr old who can't talk or move much doesn't have the ability to perform actions, which basically means not COMMITTING any sins.

My point is that there is a pre-disposition in all humans to sin. That as soon as the baby can (like, when it starts to talk) lies come out.

Maybe I should repeat myself. I agree that babies aren't guilty of the ACT of sin, because they haven't done anything and can't. The bible says they are guilty of a sin though, that of their nature. The nature of humans is to lie, and cheat, and be selfish. That nature exists APART from actions (ie. is not dependant on actions), and is inside each person. It takes no effort to lie, but takes great effort to tell the truth, in situations where lying seem easier.

-Part of the UT Christian Community
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