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(08-Jul-2003 at 15:39)
Firstly, our only basis for saying that certain things are sins and certain things arent are based on the bible, a document of dubious accuracy. Right and Wrong can be based on other things, but sinning is different, and based not only on a dubious semi-historical account, but on our interpretation of it.
It seems quite possible to repent sinning without being a christian. Anyone can feel sorry for what they have done, and may be a hell of a lot more sincere about it than someone who goes to a church and says something.
Unless god's morals are a lot different from ours (in which case we can't follow them, since we don't know what they are) it is logically inconsistant to assume babies would go to hell.
--> God knows everything
Therefore, the moment a baby is created, god knows exactly what is going to happen to it, when its going to die, whether or not it will confess to its sins etc...Otherwise, we must believe that god does not know everything. (From this it follows that if god knows everything, then there can be no free will). but anyway...
If god knows everything, then he knows, for example, that a certain baby born in africa will die very shortly after it is born. If the baby goes to hell, then it follows that god allowed the baby to be created SPECIFICALLY for the purpose of going to hell. He would know that the baby does not have the chance to repent whatever wrongs it might have done due to events beyond its control.
-
In any case, for many people to accept that not believeing in god would send you to hell, causes a conflict of morality. In order to accept this belief, people must override what they think of as wrong, because this belief leads to some rather unsettling conclusions.
For example, there are/have been hundreds of millions of people who have never seen a bible before, or heard of god etc. The aborigines, the aztecs, the chinese, the eskimos, and almost everyone who has ever existed before the first edition of the bible was published lived perfectly normal lives which were not influcened by christianity. To condemn all these people to hell clearly seems wrong...after all, they never had the chance to correct their wrongs according to christianity, although they may well have been tremendously sorry for whatever they have done
#41  
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(08-Jul-2003 at 16:28)
I've attempted to move the discussion about babies, the nature of humanity, etc. into its own thread. It's an interesting discussion, but so is this one, and it's being cast aside

So why am I Catholic? Well, I won't deny that my parents' being Catholic, their efforts to observe its rules, and their apparent belief are a big part of it. In general, I'll tend to defer to their views when I see no major reasons to go against them.

But there are certainly enough people out there with different views, including many who have carefully thought them out. I've done some investigation of various opinions on other topics (plenty of it here, some elsewhere on the Internet, some in print... wherever) of interest to me. A lot of sexual matters, for one, since the world's conception (ha ha... pun... anyway) of sex is very different from Catholicism's. I've also done some reading on the justification of war, since it has been a major topic lately. And while I've still got questions about many topics, I've never come across a code of morality that left me with fewer questions, one that seemed to have considered as much.

Then again, being fair, I'm sure that there are many ideas I have discredited simply because I heard them from someone who didn't know what he was talking about. I see things from people claiming to be Catholics who clearly do not know the first thing about the Church's teaching in various areas and who, just as importantly, have no sense of logic. I'm sure such people exist in other philosophies and religions, as well, as I've met many of them.

I would like to think, however, that I'm open to ideas from others who *do* know what they are talking about. I simply have not heard from anyone like this who was more convincing than what I've read of Catholic teachings.

Granted, that's only an argument for the Catholic code of morality. Spiritually I have even more to work on. I see some strength in the argument that a religion with a consistent code of morality could have "gotten some help," so to speak, but that's hardly enough practical justification for a religion.

Beyond that I can only point to the same sorts of experiences as anyone else: things that have gone right when I didn't expect them; things that have gone wrong, only for me to discover that I shouldn't have wanted what I did in the first place; "feelings" that this is right; Catholics I know who seem confident and at peace with their choice, and who know how to back it up; and so forth. In a court of law, it's all circumstancial at best, and in the end, the world as we know it could logically exist with or without God. It has to be a matter of faith in the end, backed up with not a knowledge that you ARE right, but a knowledge that your religion's ideas are logical to you (AFTER THINKING ABOUT THEM) and that they could be right.
#42  
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(Posted as jh211988)
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(08-Jul-2003 at 19:57)


Quote:
(Originally posted by Rabbousamai)

Firstly, our only basis for saying that certain things are sins and certain things arent are based on the bible, a document of dubious accuracy. Right and Wrong can be based on other things, but sinning is different, and based not only on a dubious semi-historical account, but on our interpretation of it.
It seems quite possible to repent sinning without being a christian. Anyone can feel sorry for what they have done, and may be a hell of a lot more sincere about it than someone who goes to a church and says something.
Unless god's morals are a lot different from ours (in which case we can't follow them, since we don't know what they are) it is logically inconsistant to assume babies would go to hell.
--> God knows everything
Therefore, the moment a baby is created, god knows exactly what is going to happen to it, when its going to die, whether or not it will confess to its sins etc...Otherwise, we must believe that god does not know everything. (From this it follows that if god knows everything, then there can be no free will). but anyway...
If god knows everything, then he knows, for example, that a certain baby born in africa will die very shortly after it is born. If the baby goes to hell, then it follows that god allowed the baby to be created SPECIFICALLY for the purpose of going to hell. He would know that the baby does not have the chance to repent whatever wrongs it might have done due to events beyond its control.
-
In any case, for many people to accept that not believeing in god would send you to hell, causes a conflict of morality. In order to accept this belief, people must override what they think of as wrong, because this belief leads to some rather unsettling conclusions.
For example, there are/have been hundreds of millions of people who have never seen a bible before, or heard of god etc. The aborigines, the aztecs, the chinese, the eskimos, and almost everyone who has ever existed before the first edition of the bible was published lived perfectly normal lives which were not influcened by christianity. To condemn all these people to hell clearly seems wrong...after all, they never had the chance to correct their wrongs according to christianity, although they may well have been tremendously sorry for whatever they have done
Actually, for each person who have not heard about the Bible, we are condemned more for it for not doing our job of spreading the word.

And uh, God didn't create the baby you mentioned specifically for going to Hell.

He gave us freewill, and we have the choice of saving the baby or not.

Religion is the mental disease of the masses.
"Once again, religion is like sniffing gasoline. Both cause permanant brain damage." -- Obsidian
#43  
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(08-Jul-2003 at 20:27)


To all the theists reading this thread. Read my siggy, then think about it.

My MSN is still [email protected].
My Skype is kapteindynetrekk
#44  
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(Posted as jh211988)
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(08-Jul-2003 at 20:36)


Quote:
(Originally posted by Nimon)

To all the theists reading this thread. Read my siggy, then think about it.
I've read it, and it's way OT.

Anyway, interesting sig you have there, but it's not enough to make me doubt God.

There is only one God and we are all following the same God, just with different ways.

Religion is the mental disease of the masses.
"Once again, religion is like sniffing gasoline. Both cause permanant brain damage." -- Obsidian
#45  
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(08-Jul-2003 at 21:01)


I have read your posts before, and actually liked you. THen I found out you are a theist, but somehow I still like you. Just hope we wont get into a hot headed religious debate...

Btw, what does OT mean?

My MSN is still [email protected].
My Skype is kapteindynetrekk

Last edited by Nimon, 08-Jul-2003 at 21:03.
Edit reason: I can't spell ok?!
#46  
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(08-Jul-2003 at 22:04)


Quote:
(Originally posted by jh211988)

He gave us freewill, and we have the choice of saving the baby or not.
What if 'God' has made it so that it is beyond our power to save the baby? Do we still have choice then?

Ignorance, the root and the stem of every evil - Plato
Philosophy is questions that may never be answered. Religion is answers that may never be questioned.
Only Sheep need a shepherd!
Religion is like communism: Good idea, bad execution
#47  
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(09-Jul-2003 at 01:32)
yeah...to say we SHOULD do something must imply that we can. A person does not have a moral responsibility to do something that he can't do. For example, i am not responsible for the september11 attacks...saying that i should have stopped them does not have any meaning.
There are many babies who die, and there is nothing the people around them can do. Also, i wonder of those iranian twins went to hell?
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(09-Jul-2003 at 01:37)
Quote:
Actually, for each person who have not heard about the Bible, we are condemned more for it for not doing our job of spreading the word.
There were a hellava lot of people who lived before the bible was ever published...Also, some continents like Australia, were only really discovered a few hundred years ago, which would have made it impossible to 'spread the word' there
#49  
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(Posted as dravid)
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(09-Jul-2003 at 04:44)
Quote:
(Originally posted by Rabbousamai)

There were a hellava lot of people who lived before the bible was ever published...Also, some continents like Australia, were only really discovered a few hundred years ago, which would have made it impossible to 'spread the word' there
Like I said in another thread. The question is not what about Aboriginals a few thousand years ago, the question is how you respond here and now.
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(Posted as jh211988)
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(09-Jul-2003 at 04:55)


Quote:
(Originally posted by Nimon)

I have read your posts before, and actually liked you. THen I found out you are a theist, but somehow I still like you. Just hope we wont get into a hot headed religious debate...

Btw, what does OT mean?
OT means OFF TOPIC, which means you're saying things that don't belong in this thread.

Religion is the mental disease of the masses.
"Once again, religion is like sniffing gasoline. Both cause permanant brain damage." -- Obsidian
#51  
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(Posted as jh211988)
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(09-Jul-2003 at 04:59)


Quote:
(Originally posted by Rabbousamai)

There were a hellava lot of people who lived before the bible was ever published...Also, some continents like Australia, were only really discovered a few hundred years ago, which would have made it impossible to 'spread the word' there
Whoops, sorry m8. Didn't remember to reply to your post. Busy with Nimon.

Anyway, it's not impossible to spread the word.

It truly depends on your efforts.

If someone would just bother to learn the language of the Aborigines, and go there to spread their word, well, Hallelujah, we just may have another thousand of members in His kingdom.

Quote:
What if 'God' has made it so that it is beyond our power to save the baby? Do we still have choice then?
Blaming everything on God doesn't makes things better. God made that baby to live, but we have the free will to save it.

Beyond our power? Easily done. Get a man of faith, probably someone like Ulf Ekman(if you know who he is), and get him to do a prayer of faith.

Of course, don't pray only, DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT! God only helps you if you help yourself. You have to get the ball rolling first and God will make it roll faster.

So don't blame God, blame humanity's stupidity for not knowing enough!

Religion is the mental disease of the masses.
"Once again, religion is like sniffing gasoline. Both cause permanant brain damage." -- Obsidian

Last edited by dothackRAVE, 09-Jul-2003 at 05:03.
#52  
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(09-Jul-2003 at 11:33)


Quote:
(Originally posted by jh211988)

OT means OFF TOPIC, which means you're saying things that don't belong in this thread.
Actually that was not off topic at all! This thread is about why you think YOUR "god" is the right, then I think my signature has everything to do with the matter.

My MSN is still [email protected].
My Skype is kapteindynetrekk
#53  
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(09-Jul-2003 at 11:42)


Quote:
(Originally posted by Nimon)

Actually that was not off topic at all! This thread is about why you think YOUR "god" is the right, then I think my signature has everything to do with the matter.

Actually, I liked your sig, and thought it was very On Topic.
I think my sig is the answer to yours..

-For those who fight all over the world.. fight for peace, fight for freedom, and fight for their lives..
Will someone please give Bush a BJ already so we can start the Impeachment?
#54  
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(09-Jul-2003 at 13:02)


Quote:
(Originally posted by muirgein)

Actually, I liked your sig, and thought it was very On Topic.
I think my sig is the answer to yours..
I didnt actually understand your sig. I must be tired

My MSN is still [email protected].
My Skype is kapteindynetrekk
#55  
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(Posted as jh211988)
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(09-Jul-2003 at 13:06)


Quote:
(Originally posted by Nimon)

I didnt actually understand your sig. I must be tired
I didn't understand yours either.

It must the the insomnia I'm having.

Religion is the mental disease of the masses.
"Once again, religion is like sniffing gasoline. Both cause permanant brain damage." -- Obsidian
#56  
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(09-Jul-2003 at 16:45)


Quote:
(Originally posted by jh211988)

I didn't understand yours either.

It must the the insomnia I'm having.
I understood yours however

Let me guess.... youre a drummer?

My MSN is still [email protected].
My Skype is kapteindynetrekk
#57  
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Old lmc
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(09-Jul-2003 at 17:26)


Quote:
(Originally posted by jh211988)
There is only one God and we are all following the same God, just with different ways.
If this is so, why do you believe YOUR way is the right way?
Do you believe other ways are false, or invalid?
What of those who do not follow the God of Abraham at all (Hindu, Budhist, Zoroastrian etc)?

Those are my principles. If you don't like them, I have others.

Groucho Marx
http://tangenitaldrunkeness.blogspot...ac22c48044bdd8
#58  
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(09-Jul-2003 at 17:52)


Quote:
(Originally posted by Nimon)

I didnt actually understand your sig. I must be tired
"For now we see through a glass darkly"

That basically means as human beings we cannot help but have biased or clouded perceptions. "Seeing through a glass darkly" means not seeing clearly, or having "tainted" perception.


"For now we see through a glass darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known."

Basically meaning while in this human form we cannot understand, but when "face to face" with God, or Allah or whoever will be waiting for us when we die, we will know the truth, even as "God" knows us.

-For those who fight all over the world.. fight for peace, fight for freedom, and fight for their lives..
Will someone please give Bush a BJ already so we can start the Impeachment?
#59  
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(09-Jul-2003 at 18:24)


Wow, complicated.....

My MSN is still [email protected].
My Skype is kapteindynetrekk
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