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Posts: 425/737
(11-May-2004 at 13:52)


freak Not the Army I knew..

I have avoided this subject until now. I can no longer stay quiet. The United States Army that I was proud to serve was not the Army depicted by the recent photos coming to light. I have to assume they do not depict the vast number of U.S. soldiers serving today.

I was trained under the Laws of Land Warfare put forth in the Geneva Convention. I personally always treated captured enemy personal with, respect, compassion and dignity.

It angers me beyond words to think of the damage done to the reputation of the U.S. armed forces so many of us worked so hard throughout our careers to build.

Im sorry. Im so very sorry that this was allowed to happened. I want to see those found guilty punishied to the Max.
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(11-May-2004 at 14:05)
i don't know when u served in the army. and wich part of it.
please read this link
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/3703751.stm
and also there are other links from this on on the right hand.

Quote:
Maj Gen Antonio Taguba found "numerous incidents of sadistic, blatant, and wanton criminal abuses" in his report.
it says: numerous.

anyway... even then... i think this a part of the army: those who were to handle prisoners. also some of the blame falls to commanders who encouraged or at least not stopped this. there might be also another reason... i mean no offense to no one, but there might also be people with lower moral standards there and lower understanding of the situation capability (as someone said... iraquis were depicted as evil and sub-human so they considered they can do sub-human things). what happened there is not about laws and conventions. it's basic moral standard.


NEVER underestimate the power of STUPIDITY!
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(11-May-2004 at 14:17)


Quote:
(Originally posted by ScoobyTheWise)

i don't know when u served in the army. and wich part of it.
please read this link
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/3703751.stm
and also there are other links from this on on the right hand.



it says: numerous.

anyway... even then... i think this a part of the army: those who were to handle prisoners. also some of the blame falls to commanders who encouraged or at least not stopped this. there might be also another reason... i mean no offense to no one, but there might also be people with lower moral standards there and lower understanding of the situation capability (as someone said... iraquis were depicted as evil and sub-human so they considered they can do sub-human things). what happened there is not about laws and conventions. it's basic moral standard.

I severed from 1984 to 1997.

The bottom line is this. Those who are guilty will be prosected period. I could not agree more with you about basic moral standards. What I was saying was that during basic training I recieved an extensive block of instruction on the Laws of Land Warfare. Before my unit was deployed to a combate zone the JAG officer gave us additional training on the subject. There will be not excuse of ignorance on the part of these people when they sand before the Court Martial.
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(11-May-2004 at 14:20)


First off, this is the 800th Military Police Brigade who was conducting the initial photos you saw, who is headed by Brigadier General Janis.. well, I can't quite remember her name. She is the lone female general in Iraq.

These guys are reservists. They don't know what to do, they haven't even been trained properly under the Geneva Conventions. They show up to training, what.. once a month? They aren't trained like active duty personnel to fight like this.

I'm not excusing it, I'm just stating and trying to dispute your claim of "they should've known the Geneva Conventions."

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(11-May-2004 at 14:37)
They SHOULD have known... And they probably did... I mean, I can't possibly imagine they're so stupid they think 'oh, we're in a war (or war-like situation) here, now we have the right to torture people'.

What happened is not really about laws, conventions or even moral standards. Unfrotunatly, humans show again and agian that they cannot be trusted with real power over other humans.

Nazi Death Camps, dictators killing their own population, Stanford experiment, this...
Different situations, different scales, but all examples of the human tendency to be cruel.

By the way, brilliant move to let the Guantanamo Bay guy investigate in this matter... Really makes people feel confident...
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(11-May-2004 at 14:49)


Everyone knows about the Geneva Convention. Everyone knows that torture is wrong. I can see what you mean, that their discipline may have let them down for lack of training, but that doesn't excuse what happened. Common sense and human decency should have been the stopgap if the training of these people failed. As it is, there really is no significant difference between Saddam's torture and these peoples actions (i don't say "America's torture", because i really don't believe this is endemic throughout the coalition armies) bar for the fact that Saddam's was for political reasons, whereas these soldiers did it because.. well, i don't know why. Maybe they're fucked in the head, i just don't know.

I'm horribly disillusioned now. I was for the war on Iraq for a few reasons, and those reasons have steadily been eroded by a lack of evidence, by adminstrational bungling and by reports like these. Regardless of what else happened, i had one reason for war to fall back on that was virtually infallible: That with Saddam gone, the Iraqi's were better off, and free from fear, terrorism and torture. And now they aren't even free from that.

Marduk, i share your shock. I never dreamt that anyone could violate so willingly everything they were supposed to be fighting for. I think that as a former army-man yourself (excuse the lack of technical detail :/) this must be heartbreaking. I think you're very courageous/honourable for putting this up yourself considering your own military past.

Noble Lady Sarak ~~ King Was Throne Away
The most extragant idea that a politican can have is to believe that it is enough for a people to march into a foreign country, for that country to adopt its laws and constitution. No-one likes armed missionaries; and nature and prudence both teach us to repel armed missionaries as enemies.
~ Maximilien Robespierre; January 1792
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(11-May-2004 at 14:55)
Quote:
(Originally posted by Sarak)

Everyone knows about the Geneva Convention. Everyone knows that torture is wrong. I can see what you mean, that their discipline may have let them down for lack of training, but that doesn't excuse what happened. Common sense and human decency should have been the stopgap if the training of these people failed. As it is, there really is no significant difference between Saddam's torture and these peoples actions (i don't say "America's torture", because i really don't believe this is endemic throughout the coalition armies) bar for the fact that Saddam's was for political reasons, whereas these soldiers did it because.. well, i don't know why. Maybe they're fucked in the head, i just don't know.
I would disagree with that statement. Anyone who has put a minimum of study into this sort of thing, or into history in general, knows about the Geneva Convention. But if I drop out of high school or just don't go to/pay attention in class and soon after join the reserves, where will have have learned the Geneva Convention? I think it is very possible that these soldiers didn't know about it. And just because someone DID torture someone doesn't mean they are "fucked up in the head". Would you say that people who owned slaves and beat them were "fucked up in the head" at that time? Slavery is wrong and what they did was very wrong and should be punished, but to assume that everyone has had the background and schooling of some of the people on these forums is simply untrue. However, this clearly shows that reservists need more training before they can be allowed to war. We in America shuld take that lesson to heart.
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(11-May-2004 at 15:14)


Quote:
(Originally posted by Majestic Vraak)

These guys are reservists. They don't know what to do, they haven't even been trained properly under the Geneva Conventions. They show up to training, what.. once a month? They aren't trained like active duty personnel to fight like this.

I'm not excusing it, I'm just stating and trying to dispute your claim of "they should've known the Geneva Conventions."
Hell, Im a 16 year old norwegian kid and even I know that the geneva conventions forbid military personell to torture...

Insert funny comment here.
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(11-May-2004 at 15:26)


Fucking forums.. Gah.. deleting messages.. sonofaBITCH!

Right.. moving on..

Quote:
(Originally posted by xgilthanox)

I would disagree with that statement. Anyone who has put a minimum of study into this sort of thing, or into history in general, knows about the Geneva Convention. But if I drop out of high school or just don't go to/pay attention in class and soon after join the reserves, where will have have learned the Geneva Convention? I think it is very possible that these soldiers didn't know about it. And just because someone DID torture someone doesn't mean they are "fucked up in the head". Would you say that people who owned slaves and beat them were "fucked up in the head" at that time? Slavery is wrong and what they did was very wrong and should be punished, but to assume that everyone has had the background and schooling of some of the people on these forums is simply untrue. However, this clearly shows that reservists need more training before they can be allowed to war. We in America shuld take that lesson to heart.
Ok, so the code of ethics of war and combat not being taught to soldiers is ok with you? Fine, i guess because of time constraints and that you can argue it's not too horrible. But what about commonsense? What about respect for humanity? How the hell were those basic values not taught to men and women who would be holding lethal weapons?

Just because someone DID torture someone? Don't you dare! There is no "just" when it comes to torture. When people in an army that's meant to be a liberating force use torture on prisoners, and flout laws they've written that they're supposed to be bringing into to another country the is no defense for torture. It's beyond crass, it's beyond stupidity. It's beyond inhuman. Yes infact, i'd go as far as to say that it's fucked up in the head.

Noble Lady Sarak ~~ King Was Throne Away
The most extragant idea that a politican can have is to believe that it is enough for a people to march into a foreign country, for that country to adopt its laws and constitution. No-one likes armed missionaries; and nature and prudence both teach us to repel armed missionaries as enemies.
~ Maximilien Robespierre; January 1792
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(11-May-2004 at 15:27)


Re: Not the Army I knew..

Quote:
(Originally posted by Marduk III)

I have avoided this subject until now. I can no longer stay quiet. The United States Army that I was proud to serve was not the Army depicted by the recent photos coming to light. I have to assume they do not depict the vast number of U.S. soldiers serving today.

I was trained under the Laws of Land Warfare put forth in the Geneva Convention. I personally always treated captured enemy personal with, respect, compassion and dignity.

It angers me beyond words to think of the damage done to the reputation of the U.S. armed forces so many of us worked so hard throughout our careers to build.

Im sorry. Im so very sorry that this was allowed to happened. I want to see those found guilty punishied to the Max.
Yeah it is pretty amazing. Our army has a history of compassionate treatment of prisoners and this is a terrible stain on our honor. However, I think it is a testament to the integrity of the army that it was actually appalled soldiers themselves who broke the silence.
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(11-May-2004 at 16:30)


On the small upshot, at least there is no current hard evidence of anything really horrible yet. (Thumbscrews anyone?)

But Sarak is right. Even if you had never heard of the Geneva convention, weren't they brought up in a society where torturing the defenceless is rather frowned upon? Wouldn't part of your basic moral standards click and say, 'hey, maybe we shouldn't set the dogs on him...'. Forget repurcussions, military and international law, there is no excusable reason for these people to do what they did without them knowing they were doing wrong.


And also a question for those who have served in the army (BA, Marduk, etc).

Do you feel that a certain portion of a countries armed forces, however small, joins up largely because they want to have the power of life and death over someone?

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(11-May-2004 at 17:19)
Quote:
(Originally posted by Majestic Vraak)
These guys are reservists. They don't know what to do, they haven't even been trained properly under the Geneva Conventions. They show up to training, what.. once a month? They aren't trained like active duty personnel to fight like this.

I'm not excusing it, I'm just stating and trying to dispute your claim of "they should've known the Geneva Conventions."
What the FUCK did troops TRAINED and breed (land of the free and all are equal...) in USA do in Iraq who doesnt know how to behave in war, they are supposed to be TRAINED KILLERS.

Heh and who is suprised shit like this happens all the time in war, nifty ways american troops are allowed to have "hearings" with people at guantanamo, do you really think the captives in Iraq got it any diffrent?

Anyone who is suprised by this needs a healthy shot of reality, there are morons everywhere and they will fuck up sooner or later. To be a realist i would say they knew about this really high up in the chain of command, it would be an effective way to scare the "right" people "if" it got out to the regular people in iraq. Just a speculation though.

May our future decisions give the future generations a better past than the one we have had
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(11-May-2004 at 17:25)
Re: Not the Army I knew..

Quote:
(Originally posted by Marduk III)
I have avoided this subject until now. I can no longer stay quiet. The United States Army that I was proud to serve was not the Army depicted by the recent photos coming to light. I have to assume they do not depict the vast number of U.S. soldiers serving today.
The large number of U.S. soldiers are not involved in handling prisoners. It appears as if those guards did what was expected of them, although perhaps in a more sloppy and less clinical way than expected. For example read this story: http://www.guardian.co.uk/Iraq/Story...210574,00.html
It even seems as if the torture is still going on:
http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exer...4FEB61DA1A.htm

Quote:
Im sorry. Im so very sorry that this was allowed to happened. I want to see those found guilty punishied to the Max.
That won't happen. Maybe a few caught on picture will get punishmed to try to repair US reputation, but the people higher up in the hierarchy will go free, and it's already clear that the system won't change: USA intends to continue using methods of interrogations that others label as torture. The most likely consequence is that soldiers are forbidden to carry cameras into prisons.

Remember what happened (or rather didn't happen) after the My Lai massacre! Also remember the School of Americas where many of the most infamous torturers in Latin America was trained by USA.
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(11-May-2004 at 17:27)


Quote:
(Originally posted by Stringy)

On the small upshot, at least there is no current hard evidence of anything really horrible yet. (Thumbscrews anyone?)

But Sarak is right. Even if you had never heard of the Geneva convention, weren't they brought up in a society where torturing the defenceless is rather frowned upon? Wouldn't part of your basic moral standards click and say, 'hey, maybe we shouldn't set the dogs on him...'. Forget repurcussions, military and international law, there is no excusable reason for these people to do what they did without them knowing they were doing wrong.


And also a question for those who have served in the army (BA, Marduk, etc).

Do you feel that a certain portion of a countries armed forces, however small, joins up largely because they want to have the power of life and death over someone?
Some soldiers might talk like they want to go to war. Some may even join the army in order to get a chance to fight. Because they may have romantic or Hollywood ideas about what it’s all about.

However, all that macho bullshit goes out the window the first time somebody starts shooting at you and if that doesn’t do it then holding your first dead friend will. Most soldiers spend every day in combat praying they don't get killed. Hoping they will return to the family and loved ones they left behind. My first hope in combat was that I live; my second hope was that I not have to kill.

I've never meet a pure sociopath in the Army but I’m sure there are some.
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(11-May-2004 at 20:08)


There is one thing I was wondering about...

President Bush said that the responsible will be punished...

Rumsfeld said that he will take all responsibility...

And still Rumsfeld will not be punished in any way...

Insert funny comment here.
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(11-May-2004 at 20:15)


Quote:
(Originally posted by Majestic Vraak)

First off, this is the 800th Military Police Brigade who was conducting the initial photos you saw, who is headed by Brigadier General Janis.. well, I can't quite remember her name. She is the lone female general in Iraq.

These guys are reservists. They don't know what to do, they haven't even been trained properly under the Geneva Conventions. They show up to training, what.. once a month? They aren't trained like active duty personnel to fight like this.

I'm not excusing it, I'm just stating and trying to dispute your claim of "they should've known the Geneva Conventions."
Actually, this is not quite true. One of the members of this brigade is, in his life States-side, a prison guard. I would imagine that he would have a fairly good understanding of what is and what isn't allowed in regards to prisoner treatment. And yet...

Also, some might wonder why these reservists felt it was appropriate to treat their prisoners without any apparent respect for their basic rights as human beings. It leads one to wonder what kind of indoctrination soldiers are undergoing before going to (and while in) Iraq.

No Comment
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(11-May-2004 at 20:32)
A stain on the American soldiers honor? This isnt the first time U.S soldiers have tortured people they have been at war with. I suggest some of you or all of you read the book "Nam" by Mark Baker..or heres an piece of one of the stories of what a vet did in vietnam.

Page 191


""G.I give them to me." He worked in the mess hall back in the rear somewheres.
"The G.I's gave you pears? oh, yeah? For that, we're going to screw your daughter." So we went running, taking his daughter. She was crying. I think she was a virgin. We pulled her pants down and put a gun to her head.....As I said we were in a free fire zone. we started pumping rounds into him until the guy just bursts open. He didnt have a face anymore.

etc..horrible stuff it goes on for like 3 pages of the one section in the book and its scattered throughout. My point is, your military was stained with miss treatments, etc well before now. Sure you guys may have done alot of work to rebuild your character and have done a wonderful job, im not disputing that in the least. It's just the people who look down on your country and who learn about your country and miss deeds in history glass, mostly global or American History in University get to see all kinda of neat stuff that you guys are honestly not exposed to.

But also you have to remember that in war theres fustration, and when theres people who cant deal with the fustration they do stupid shit like whats going on in Iraq, was in vietnam, etc. Then you'll probably ask about Hitler and the death camps, well theres no reasonable explanation for that. Thats just stupid senceless violence that served no purpose at all, except to further Hitlers pure racial theory b/s.

and no, im not labeling all americans evil, bad etc, its just a few ruin for everyone, and where the international community's attention is focused on you atm, your the ones who are going to be taking the heat and have to deal with this kind of stuff.
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(12-May-2004 at 01:25)
I am currently in the Army and I personally think that these pictures are sick and wrong and all soldiers involved should be punished to the full extent of both the UCMJ and tried for war crimes as well. But let us not forget that these men and women served with other men and women that had their frickin brains blown out in front of them or legs or arms blow of by IED's (improvised explosion devices) I think because the war has come to a point where our service men and women can no longer see or shoot at the enemy they are going to take it out on those they can see IE the prisoners. I feel sorry for those people who must take out their frustrations this way. Please do not judge them because you werent there. Few of you have seen the war including myself. Once you have been through that then cast judgment until then be quiet.
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(12-May-2004 at 01:29)
Im not casting judgement at all, its jsut if this is being done, and no your right I dont understand, nor do I ever wish to have to be in that situation. Its just theres a right way and a wrong way to deal with the fustrations that combat brings to combat troops. to deal with that your tours could be shorter, or the people who cant deal with it should be sent home.
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(12-May-2004 at 01:58)


Joekndll, I wholeheartedly agree. I almost wrote that in my first post but I didn't want to say it in regards to some of my fellow Americans.

Soldiers have seen much in their experience. Seeing your buddies being bombed, having their bodies draped in the Colors and their bodies carried off.. that is a very excruciating sight. See it over, and over, and over. Then imagine working in a prison. Army personnel are trained as skilled men and women, not machines. They are not insusceptible to emotional breakdowns.

I want you to understand that I am not condoning the actions of these men, I am merely trying to show you what they went through. (And women, too).

When they see names of people that they served with on the KIA roster (Killed in Action), it becomes one too large a sight for them to see. Human civility is at a loss when you see five of your friends blown to smithereens thanks to some guy who wanted to fight for his cause by blowing himself up.

This is against all human morals, but understand this. In order for the Geneva Conventions to work, both sides must play by the rules. Terrorists stopped playing by the rules on 9/11/2001. When they decided to exchange 19 lives for 1,900, that's when they wanted to stop playing by the rules. We in America, play by the rules. But when the war becomes personal, and starts hitting home to some of these soldiers.. when their buddy loses an arm or a leg..

You hear every day about some soldier getting killed in Iraq. But what about the injuries? If I lost my arm and my leg, I might as well be dead. Seeing buddies like this, having to go home to your mother and father without many of your body parts.. that's a sad sight.. It may have affected the personnel.

You cannot only blame the soldiers who committed this. You can blame the SECDEF and the CinC, but that won't help you much either.

We're all going to play the blame game. We're going to say XX is wrong.. and this is an atrocious act.. But if you are going to criticize those you claim as hypocrites (i.e. Bush/Rumsfeld, and co) for condemning the acts even though they knew this was happening months in advance, then criticize ALL who knew of this. The media, part of the MI infrastructure. Don't blame the common soldier; they didn't know about this. You condemn the Army like it's the whole Army that's doing it. You condemn the Army like its the whole Army that knew of it. You condemn the quality of training they receive, like it's the whole Army that's "lacking of human morals." The entire Army should not be dishonored simply for the unethical nature of a few SPCs and a few Privates..

As I said before, I am not defending what has happened.

I hate to draw the Vietnam analogy, but I will do so. In Vietnam, America was conflicted as to the legitimacy of the War. Same in Iraq. In Vietnam, atrocious acts were committed by a few members of the United States Armed Forces. Same in Iraq. During the Vietnam Conflict, many demonstrated in front of office buildings, federal administrative offices, etc., in protest of the war. Same for Iraq. In Vietnam, troops were dishonored, spat upon, for the actions of the few of the top brass. In Iraq?

Signature suspended by SM Tengu for violating the forum's rules. [Non-English rule]
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