Utopia Temple
Main Forum Page Register an Account for Free! Calendar Frequently Asked Questions about this Board View New Posts Advanced Search Login
  Utopia Temple Forums > General Discussions > Respectable General Discussions > Religious Discussions

« Previous Thread | Next Thread »
Post New Thread Reply
Author Thread
Posts: 1084/1095
(02-Mar-2008 at 19:50)


Re: 2 + 2 = 5

Originally Posted by The Chaos: View Post
...2 + 2 = 4 because if you aren't speaking in base of 10, with reals, you must say so. Yes it's a convention, but what exactly are you trying to prove? That you could understand it another way? You can't, because if you decide not to talk with conventions, you need to add all that was agreed upon using the convention. when I tell you 2 + 2 = 4 you must then understand "In a base of 10, 2 + 2 = 4".
...
So the 2+2=11 or 2+2=10 answers were wrong? What exactly are YOU trying to prove?

This is where the error is. Your approach is: if I use something "different" than typical I must state so and if I don't, the "typical" assumptions stand. I contest such approach: this may do for casual conversation or disussion where the context is already established (for example you are in class of algebra 101) but is not sufficient for any properly formulated thesis. Actually, I hope the teachers still fail student who don't do it right.

Furthermore, such statement to be used as an universal truth and to dig into psychology of doubt reinforcing, brainwash or in particular response under duress (as in relation to this thread), especially if the available answer is limited to "Yes/No/I don't know", the missing details are very important.

Considering the strawman tangent in math, depending where are you currently in your education level, you may see it different, I suggest to look at analogies in statements "grass is green" or "sky is blue", "water is wet", "young is stupid", etc. If you feel these truisms have any value as "universal truths" because convensions stand, I waste my time.

good judgement mostly comes from experience and a lot of that comes from bad judgement...

Last edited by VonBooB, 02-Mar-2008 at 19:51.
#161  
View Public Profile Find more posts by VonBooB Add VonBooB to your Buddy List Reply with Quote
Posts: 612/782
(02-Mar-2008 at 22:31)


If you come and say "2+2=11" yes it is wrong. If you are in a math class where bases matter, then your statement is neither right nor wrong, since you didn't specify which one you were using.

When in everyday's life you say x + y = z, with x,y,z integer, you're using base of 10, else you must specify. Conventions are made that way, so long as your into what it has defined, you must not specify, else you do.
That is why some "universal" math notations (pi for example) agreed upon can be used in maths without specifying what it is, while others are not universal and must each type be defined.

When you say 2 + 2 = 4 in a non mathematical discussion, you're adding things, such as I have 2 spoons and 2 more spoons, that makes 4 spoons and not 11 spoons, even though if the world had used a base of 3 instead of a base of 10 your sentence would have been right.

You're just saying that if conventions weren't followed (any everyday's life numbers are in a base of 10 for example) then what we say cannot be certain. Sure, but all we say is based on conventions, therefore all we say assume using them.

Just like in philosophy when philosophers give a new definition to a word, other than the one you could find in the dictionary they define the word first. Take action, some philosophers have thought of "action" using another definition. They said what it was for them before begining, because they were coming out of the convention : the dictionary.

As for "grass is green" ... only the "water is wet" is always true, the others cannot have a universal value, since grass can be green, or yellow (and colors can never really be universal, a daltonian can say it's not red/blue/whatever).

-"Just who do you think he is? God?"
-"No, god would have mercy, he won't"

Last edited by The Chaos, 02-Mar-2008 at 22:36.
#162  
View Public Profile Find more posts by The Chaos Add The Chaos to your Buddy List Reply with Quote
Posts: 948/1637
(03-Mar-2008 at 01:08)
Re: 2 + 2 = 5

Originally Posted by VonBooB: View Post
You are missing the point. An answer "I don't know" may be the only proper RESPONSE but it doesn't actually answer the question. Why? Because I may have a few different answers for it. While conventions and presumptions can limit the amount of interpretations, the good practice requires to define workspace first.

For example, let us go with the 2+2=4: what the heck is it?
Well, there are a few presumptions, first of them is that we are operating in decimal system i.e. with base of ten. If we were to use a base of three, the 2+2=11, base of four gives 2+2=10, I hope you get the idea. The casual conversation may rely on presumptions: "the absolute truth" can't.

Furthermore (as shown by some tangents developed in this thread), what does the 2 or 4 in this equation stand for: integers? That would be a good presumption but look what happened just because you didn't make it CLEAR: a few pages on attempts to prove with real numbers that 2.0+2.0=4.0 (n.b. wrong also due to simple lack of statement that radius cannot be equal zero and breaking down to precision of measure). Would we get the same result mixing in complex/imaginary numbers? So indeed once we do have this workspace defined as per above here it goes:

A+A+A+A=2A+2A=4A and with non zero A we don't need to look further.
Howether, without stating this, integer "2" can be a real "2.0" or a complex "2i" and this is completely different story because we open a whole new can of worms. We can enter the world of statistics and sampling or physics and measurement. How do you add 2mm and 2mm if all you have is a ruler with 5mm scale? Or, how do you account for phase shift if you add only the magnitude?

Ok, I could go on (switch to "grass is green" and laugh that my grass is brown or treat it seriously and break it to reflected/diffused/transmitted/daylight/incandescent/frequency/temperature/etc) but I hope I made the importance of precision in stating anything as "absolute truth" clear enough.

So no, no proper question "answers itself" while badly formulated question leads only to more questions. Yes, you could presume that your audience has low education level (like many preachers do) but at the best you will get "smile and nod" reaction if your presumption is wrong. Ancient philosophers could afford such presumptions: they didn't know better and had nobody to contest with anyway...
So questions need to be defined and clear in which presumptions are being used. When it is clear what the answer really is, according to the presumptions, then does this only lead to more presumptions? How do we ask questions about the presumptions themselves? How do we prove, from the very beginning of the process, that every single presumption is worthwhile?
#163  
View Public Profile Find more posts by Gotterdammerung Add Gotterdammerung to your Buddy List Reply with Quote
Posts: 1085/1095
(03-Mar-2008 at 01:22)


Re: 2 + 2 = 5

Originally Posted by The Chaos: View Post
... only the "water is wet" is always true, the others cannot have a universal value...
...and the young are not always stupid. The thing is, the ice is not wet even if it is still chemically pure water. Does that bother you enough to go after this strawman too? Like I said, lack of proper definitions allows for MANY interpretations.

You analize things based on your level of comprehension instead of on logical values. As such, you allow yourself to be limited by the cruel IQ number, don't see the forest for the trees... and get boneheaded about the math based on, let me guess: math grades? We will talk in a few "hundred" years.

good judgement mostly comes from experience and a lot of that comes from bad judgement...
#164  
View Public Profile Find more posts by VonBooB Add VonBooB to your Buddy List Reply with Quote
Posts: 1086/1095
(03-Mar-2008 at 01:36)


Re: 2 + 2 = 5

Originally Posted by Gotterdammerung: View Post
So questions need to be defined and clear in which presumptions are being used. When it is clear what the answer really is, according to the presumptions, then does this only lead to more presumptions? How do we ask questions about the presumptions themselves? How do we prove, from the very beginning of the process, that every single presumption is worthwhile?
AH! Now we are getting somewhere, brawo! To define the boundries and create a model is a very difficult process. It constantly evolves as our understanding and knowledge grow, both as individuals and as a society. This model at kindergarden level is quite different than the one on the grad level. The same applies to the civilization. We laugh at antics of ancient philosophers and I am fairly sure a few years down the line, someone will laugh at the current top level thinking. "Universal truths" of today become truisms of tomorrow, no matter how you look at it.
The other good question is: is there a higher level analogy in this, that we could profit from today? Yep, a million dollar question...

good judgement mostly comes from experience and a lot of that comes from bad judgement...
#165  
View Public Profile Find more posts by VonBooB Add VonBooB to your Buddy List Reply with Quote
Posts: 949/1637
(03-Mar-2008 at 02:03)
Re: 2 + 2 = 5

Originally Posted by VonBooB: View Post
AH! Now we are getting somewhere, brawo! To define the boundries and create a model is a very difficult process. It constantly evolves as our understanding and knowledge grow, both as individuals and as a society. This model at kindergarden level is quite different than the one on the grad level. The same applies to the civilization. We laugh at antics of ancient philosophers and I am fairly sure a few years down the line, someone will laugh at the current top level thinking. "Universal truths" of today become truisms of tomorrow, no matter how you look at it.
The other good question is: is there a higher level analogy in this, that we could profit from today? Yep, a million dollar question...
You mean to say: is there a truism of tomorrow that we can realise as a truism of today? As a kind of acceleration of understanding?

This would come under presumptions of a certain kind, of a certain modernist understanding of progress and profit and measurement and linear-structured learning. We have to still first ask whether or not these things are worthwhile.

It's probably just too hard to deconstruct current understandings too much without loosing understandings altogether. Where not smart enough to structure whole new models from scatch without refering to some kind of previous versions. Though at our current snail's pace it still allows us to laugh at them, which is probably half the reason for 'progress' anyway.

Leaps and bounds in thinking mean nothing until the herd catches up to recognise them.
#166  
View Public Profile Find more posts by Gotterdammerung Add Gotterdammerung to your Buddy List Reply with Quote
Posts: 1087/1095
(03-Mar-2008 at 03:03)


Yes, you are right but there are a few models out there that attempt to do just that. Of course, on many levels it is just a gamble or in best case an "educated guess". Nevertheless, a good example of higher level logic that could be used to draw from, is linear physics concept, if not for any other reason than pure elegance. IMHO, string theory is the cherry on top in this class. Following this logic, theory of everything is the logical next step. Please, I don't want to debate these here: this is only an example of modelling future truisms. Just imagine if averything and anything had only one quality: length...
Q: How tall are you? A: 1.84m
Q: How much do you weight? 353km
Q: How old are you? 274Gm
Isn't that rad? Now, in model like this there would be no need for definitions, conversions, clarifications or need for interpretation.

I think it is a good bet that the simplicity of solution comes either by luck or by profound understanding, if not both. Trouble is that luck alone usually lacks the support while understanding comes typically too late.

good judgement mostly comes from experience and a lot of that comes from bad judgement...
#167  
View Public Profile Find more posts by VonBooB Add VonBooB to your Buddy List Reply with Quote
Posts: 616/782
(03-Mar-2008 at 12:05)


hmm, water and ice aren't the same. Water is the liquid form of H20, while ice is the solid form of H20. Therefore water is always wet, while H20 isn't
And yes, you understand thing based on conventions, and not on logic itself, which would allow far more interpretations, but that's what conventions are for. You still haven't answered : what are you trying to prove?

PS: I didn't get the math part of your post.

-"Just who do you think he is? God?"
-"No, god would have mercy, he won't"

Last edited by The Chaos, 03-Mar-2008 at 12:06.
#168  
View Public Profile Find more posts by The Chaos Add The Chaos to your Buddy List Reply with Quote
Posts: 1088/1095
(04-Mar-2008 at 00:53)


Re: 2 + 2 = 5

Originally Posted by The Chaos: View Post
hmm, water and ice aren't the same. Water is the liquid form of H20, while ice is the solid form of H20. Therefore water is always wet, while H20 isn't
And yes, you understand thing based on conventions, and not on logic itself, which would allow far more interpretations, but that's what conventions are for. You still haven't answered : what are you trying to prove?

PS: I didn't get the math part of your post.
Well, if you just paid for a five hundred gallons of water and didn't specify temperature or other "typical details", I might decide that is less costly to send it without containers. A slab of ice on a flabed truck at your door: sign here, I already have your money... Convention? Ha, sue me!

If you were to follow the recent few posts, you would know exactly what am I trying to prove. The need of precision in communication and the kneejerk reaction to confuse communications, fight the battle of "bullet and armor". It is not just the sciences. The specifications get thicker and so do the ingenious ways to get around it. Be it individual mind, a group or whole society: it is both ignored on one side and blown out of proportion on the other side. Why is it we sign every day some forms full of legal microprint that we don't even bother to read, even if we can't shake this feeling of "if something gets screwed, we are the first to pay"? Convention? Boiler plate??? Get out of here! We simply presume these papers are a "convention".

2+2=4... convention? I'm sure we all can find quite a few contracts out there where this "convention" simply does not apply.
Let me try this on you: Joe and Mary went to a store and bought 2 cans of soda each, each one priced at $1. How much did they spend?
Before you jump with the answer, you should ask: "where are they shopping?"

The human mind works like this: if a loophole stops the pain (like example of initial post), makes a few bucks or simply tickles your fancy, it doesn't really matter. The only way to cure would be to create a model that removes any possible loopholes.

BTW, the concept from the previous post is not math: it's physics. If everything is built of strings, there would be only one thing to measure: length and we could use meters (m, km, Gm, etc) to describe everything. It is another tangent though and should be worthy of separate discussion.

good judgement mostly comes from experience and a lot of that comes from bad judgement...
#169  
View Public Profile Find more posts by VonBooB Add VonBooB to your Buddy List Reply with Quote
Posts: 617/782
(04-Mar-2008 at 11:32)


Well, If I pay for 500gallons of water, you must send me 500 gallons of water, since ice takes more space you could send me ice instead (which would not be water) so long as once I've made it melt I get 500 gallons of water. Furthermore, ice will melt on the way, so you will have to put something around, else I won't have my 500gallons in the end. But Ice or Water are the same molecule, not the same thing. You can have it travel any way you want, in the end you will get the same thing (just look at gas, sometimes it travels liquid )

Note for the "sue me" that this is another problem, it doesn't mean your right in any way it's just : Is it worth it to force you to respect the law? ....

Your couple will have 2 cans and more cans, that makes 4cans !!!

Now the price will be 1$ + 1$ + 1$ + 1$ = 4$. If there is a promotion or something they are getting money back, but still officialy the cost of 4 cans is 4$. That allows promotions to be real else you would just say something is on promotion while actualy you didn't change prices.

As for contracts, which is the law, it works with the conventions too. You cannot fool someone because you play on the fact that they will use conventions while your not using them but your own twisted mind. Justice will find you guilty.

As for the human mind always trying to use any possible loophole that I can only agree with, and a model where no loophole is possible would indeed be the best, yet I don't think it would change human minds, they would still try to find any even small loophole possible, since nothing can ever be perfect ...

-"Just who do you think he is? God?"
-"No, god would have mercy, he won't"

Last edited by The Chaos, 04-Mar-2008 at 11:35.
#170  
View Public Profile Find more posts by The Chaos Add The Chaos to your Buddy List Reply with Quote
Posts: 1089/1095
(05-Mar-2008 at 00:37)


Re: 2 + 2 = 5

Originally Posted by The Chaos: View Post
Well, If I pay for 500gallons of water, you must send me 500 gallons of water, ...
I am sorry my friend but you just don't get any of that. I will not even try to explain the value difference of 500 gallons dumped into your swimming pool vs. bottled. I can make money this way even if the slab delivered is 1000 gallons worth. Your expansion/melting/molecular/whatever is a joke compared to $0.05 per bottle. It's way out there over your head, so let's do the four dollar math instead.

Originally Posted by The Chaos: View Post
Your couple will have 2 cans and more cans, that makes 4cans !!!
...
W-holly cow! You got this all by yourself?
Just kidding...

Originally Posted by The Chaos: View Post
Now the price will be 1$ + 1$ + 1$ + 1$ = 4$. If there is a promotion or something they are getting money back, but still officialy the cost of 4 cans is 4$. That allows promotions to be real else you would just say something is on promotion while actualy you didn't change prices.
To put it in simpler terms, YES, you should have asked the question: where are they shopping? All other things being equal they would pay in Quebec $4.52, while in Alabama $4.32...

Originally Posted by The Chaos: View Post
As for contracts, which is the law, it works with the conventions too. You cannot fool someone because you play on the fact that they will use conventions while your not using them but your own twisted mind. Justice will find you guilty.

As for the human mind always trying to use any possible loophole that I can only agree with, and a model where no loophole is possible would indeed be the best, yet I don't think it would change human minds, they would still try to find any even small loophole possible, since nothing can ever be perfect ...
It pains me to say so because I wish you were right but you are wrong about conventions and law also. If it would be that simple, we wouldn't need lawyers.
Learn how to read/write specifications and definitions: don't rely on "conventions" because there are none that stand to any serious leverage. Truisms are for suckers and "universal truths" of today are the truisms of the future. Instinctively we know it but most of us are too proud to admit it.

good judgement mostly comes from experience and a lot of that comes from bad judgement...
#171  
View Public Profile Find more posts by VonBooB Add VonBooB to your Buddy List Reply with Quote
Posts: 619/782
(05-Mar-2008 at 01:45)


hmmm you mean VAT (all taxes included in Europe when you buy something so ... ^^)? If it's the case it doesn't matters, the price remains 1$, just like a promotion doesn't alter the price itself, taxes won't either. It's like all those things are modifiers, if you take raw price, 4 cans cost the price of 4 times 1 can everywhere

Quote:
W-holly cow! You got this all by yourself?
I would have loved to, but actualy I had to use a program to do it for me.


Law may sometimes be interpreted different ways. Which is why I said I agreed if it was all very clear with no doubt possible it'd be the best. When Coca Cola has a game were you could win a helicopter by keeping like 2m cocacola caps, it was made thinking nobody would ever reach it because the number was so high it was made so that with what was produced at the moment it was nearly impossible. Yet somehow someone who had been keeping caps managed to get the number. Coca cola then tried to give him a RC helicopter or something (wasn't a real one, that's all I'm sure). well they were playing on the fact by convention when your told a helicopter, you think of the real thing. They went to court (obviously the guy wanted his helicopter) and lost. Now laws aren't conventions, they are rules. Language is the convention. "2 + 2 = 4" is a language convention, "helicopter" meaning the real thing comes from convention ... comunicating and not laws is the convention :P

PS: I think it was coca cola, and i think it was a helicopter, but well, it was like 12years ago, so don't really remember that well, furthermore as I was a kid, but could have existed anyways ^^

-"Just who do you think he is? God?"
-"No, god would have mercy, he won't"

Last edited by The Chaos, 05-Mar-2008 at 01:46.
#172  
View Public Profile Find more posts by The Chaos Add The Chaos to your Buddy List Reply with Quote
Posts: 1090/1095
(05-Mar-2008 at 22:22)


Ok, if you can't even bother to read the question with precision (the question was: How much did they spend?) why do you feel fit to comment on legal details? Are you a lawyer?

good judgement mostly comes from experience and a lot of that comes from bad judgement...
#173  
View Public Profile Find more posts by VonBooB Add VonBooB to your Buddy List Reply with Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Forum Jump:


All times are GMT+1. The time now is 08:06.

Powered by vBulletin (modified)
Copyright ©2000-2006, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.